I'm working on my own guide, though it won't be finished for awhile. I do plan on adding a couple of sample characters.
Can anyone tell me where these guides get all those great graphics?
http://paizo.com/paizo/about/communityuse then click on the community use package.
It's debatable at least on the Arcane Trickster side. Personally I've found that a rogue/sorcerer build to be very effective for at least an AT build, provided you give the rogue side a bit more development, say at least to 5th level. (...) It's someone who can add a magical flair to rogue tricks and inflict greivous harm with a Ray of Frost :)
I thought I'd add: this can work great with Draconic Bloodline (+1dmg/die) and Elemental (elemental substitution and vulnerability) because the SA dice have the same damage type as the weapon vector used to effect them. Worth considering if you want to go that way.
I see nothing in the rules saying that figments disappear when touched or attacked. I see the AC rules for them though. As written, I would say the subject who successfully attacked the figment gets a save to disbelieve and that's all.
I've used a figment of an "evil floating skull god with shadowy hands" to confound my players for several rounds (they kept blasting it with their most powerful spells and then failing their saves to disbelieve while the illusion taunted them about being an immortal god).
By the time they realized the truth of it, the illusionist had his traps in place, minions on the scene, and powerful battle spells ready to go.
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Ok, so maybe I was being picky that day. I can't seem to notice any bad other questionable picks, but I do like sleep. I try to avoid being with 15 ft of the bad guys for color spray*, but that may be due my memories of how frail 1d4's are.I added sleep as an option to color spray (you probably don't want both).
I realize that I'm coming late to the discussion, but the biggest problem with sleep is the one round cast time. With the poor defenses you have at low level, it can be hard to cast the spell successfuly since you are likely to take damage and fail the concentration check.
I'm in the process of creating a sorcerer for a new campaign and it looks like Sleep will be one of my two starting spells because it's just too good to pass up for a fey bloodline (+2 save DC) sorcerer, even with the one round cast time.
With that bloodline Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) become extra juicy. You know, a DC 20 save or suck at first level is just plain cruel.
Being True Neutral gives you the benefit of the denying the posibility of benefiting from Protection from U to your opponents.
I recomend grease or enlarge person as your second spell to reduce your limitation against inmunity to mind-affecting.
Humbly,
Yawar
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With that bloodline Spell Focus (Enchantment) and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment) become extra juicy. You know, a DC 20 save or suck at first level is just plain cruel.
I recomend grease or enlarge person as your second spell to reduce your limitation against inmunity to mind-affecting.
The game is scheduled to start tomorrow and there are at least three other people who have expressed interest, but who knows who will actually show up. The two people who have shown the greatest interest were planning to create an alchemist and a witch. So I've left my spell list vague until we actually meet.
I had a sorcerer/barbarian in 3.5 whose initial spells were sleep and enlarge person. It was painful for the first 2-3 levels, but it improved greatly from there. I think the Pathfinder changes have severely restricted that character concept, but I may give it a try the next time I need a new character. It was fun having a chance to use d12's for a chance (great axe).
I'm planning on Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Enchantment for my feats, but it's subject to change depending on the rest of the group. I also considered the point blank and precise shot feats, but while it may be more prudent, it doesn't fit the character as well.
This will be my first Pathfinder game, so I'm not sure how much the rules changes will affect survivability. Toughness would be nice, but with the increase to d6 hit dice, they're already tougher than before. I think combat casting is a necessity, but I'm not sure whether it is necessary at 1st level. Live and learn.
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If you want to go barbarian/ sorcerer you might seriously look into dragon disciple. You can go Barbarian 3/ sorcerer 2 then go into DD. The claws/ bite only work for a few rounds/ day bot overall it's pretty decent.
The new Clarity of Mind barbarian ability would allow at least one spell to be cast while raging, instead of having to buff completely first, which would help.
I think the Pathfinder change to rounds of rage per day helps barbarians because they can rage in multiple fights per day from the start. Conversely, I think the similar change to bardic music hurts bards because they have to ration its use, although I will admit that it stops the foolishness of the bard singing continuously through multiple levels of a dungeon.
Dragon disciple and bloodline would make for a nice barbarian/sorcerer, but I think you would want to go Barbarian 4 / Sorcerer 1 instead of 3/2.
The Aberrant bloodline may make an excellent barbarian/sorcerer, if you specialize in grappling. (Caution - I know the rules for grappling changed in Pathfinder, but I'm not sure just how different it is from 3.5). Enlarge person, combat casting, improved grapple, long limbs, unusual anatomy). This bloodline would have made a great grappler in 3.5, not sure about now: extra reach to start a grapple and a chance to ignore sneak attack damage when you are denied dex because you are in a grapple.
I was thinking Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 3
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I was thinking Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 3
Just depends on how much emphasis you want to put on casting. I suggested barbarian 3/ sorcerer 2 with the assumption that the character would be primarily a melee slugger. The second level of sorcerer doesn't take a hit to BAB and puts him one level higher caster and one level higher in all his bloodline powers. Third level is nice but then you BAB suffers. There are all kinds of saving throw implications also. Plus your rounds of rage, rage talents...
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For what it's worth I think the flexibility on how you can enter dragon disciple is a strength of the PrC compared to a lot of the others where you have to pretty much have a set number of levels in 2 classes. Compare to the eldritch knight where you need 5 levels of wizard or the arcane trickster where you need 3 levels of each class.
I was thinking Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 3Just depends on how much emphasis you want to put on casting. I suggested barbarian 3/ sorcerer 2 with the assumption that the character would be primarily a melee slugger. The second level of sorcerer doesn't take a hit to BAB and puts him one level higher caster and one level higher in all his bloodline powers. Third level is nice but then you BAB suffers. There are all kinds of saving throw implications also. Plus your rounds of rage, rage talents...
You don't get another Rage talent until level 4. Rage talents that actually progress, don't progress fast enough for you to ever improve them. And only one rage power is really worth getting in this combo - the one that lets you not suffer from the effects of Rage for one round. Rage isn't based on class level so that's not important and you can just take the Extra Rage feat.
The casting is far more important to successfully beating people to death and with B2/S3, you get 2nd level spells by DD2 instead of DD3.And if you take Power Attack early, it isn't really that your BAB suffers so much as your damage output.
To answer your last two questions:
1. Yes I will update the guide for the APG (when I get it)I'm also planning on a prestige class section. I have no plans for a spell guide as Treantmonk's wizard spell list is really all you need.
2. I never got it on the srd, as you need to log into thier forums to do so and the forums won't accept my username...I'm probably doing it wrong, but I've been so busy recently I haven't taken the time to figure it out, I barely post here anymore as it is.
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To answer your last two questions:
1. Yes I will update the guide for the APG (when I get it)I'm also planning on a prestige class section. I have no plans for a spell guide as Treantmonk's wizard spell list is really all you need.
2. I never got it on the srd, as you need to log into thier forums to do so and the forums won't accept my username...I'm probably doing it wrong, but I've been so busy recently I haven't taken the time to figure it out, I barely post here anymore as it is.
Thought about adding it to the d20pfrpg site where treantmonk's stuff is stored?
It is simply not true that Treantmonk's spell guide is all a Sorcerer needs. Sorcerers are not Wizards. They have a different set of priorities for which spells are optimal. Wizards don't have to sacrifice versatility for bang since they have no limit on how many spells they can learn. Sorcerers must always be interested in selecting spells which are applicable in the widest possible number of scenarios.
+1
It is simply not true that Treantmonk's spell guide is all a Sorcerer needs. Sorcerers are not Wizards. They have a different set of priorities for which spells are optimal. Wizards don't have to sacrifice versatility for bang since they have no limit on how many spells they can learn. Sorcerers must always be interested in selecting spells which are applicable in the widest possible number of scenarios.+1
1) Just chiming in to say that I'd reeeeally like to read a complete spell guide written with the Sorcerer in mind. Or even a couple of sample spell-lists that include information on order of adoption/retraining. (I thought knowing only 3-6 spells per level was cruel even *before* I noticed how long it would take me to even assemble those 3 to 6. You have to wait a long time for your 3 to 6 spells, and everybody talks as if spells at any level lower than the highest level you can cast are more or less useless against your opponents). Thoughts on optimized wand and scroll use would be valuable, too. I've spent a lot of time reading spell descriptions and taking notes, but I'm sure there are good wand/scroll spells I've missed. Plus, it would be nice to hear from experienced Sorcerers about the relative dangers/benefits of, say, casting attack spells from scrolls. It hardly sounds ideal, but is it better than not knowing enough spells to get by?
2) On a wholly related note, I'm a noob playing my first Sorcerer, and I just got to third level. (Finally I can learn a new first level spell!!! Yaaay!!!) If it just is the cast that the first couple of Sorcerer levels are going to be hard to get through, then I can take the bad news. But I'd be interested in any insights about getting through low-level Sorcerer play.
As a random example of a question from my own context, I get to take my first Level 2 spell at 4th level, and the Wizard in the group will already know several Level 2 spells by then. On the one hand, I can see where invisibility is probably the biggest game-changer at Level 2, and our party might benefit by it being cast several times/day. But since my spell list will still be so short at Level 4, I'm hesitant to take Invisibility first and just be... bored? I'd rather have Web, or alternately collect wand/scrolls of Web and take the mostly-low-rated Spider Climb. (Uh, not because they're both spider-themed. My character is supposed to be a little weird, but she's not a spider lady. They're just both spells that interest me). We could use Spider Climb for stealth, to circumvent and flank enemies in small spaces, and to give our Rogue additional ways to sneak up on people. And if I acquire a touch attack before too long (am waiting for a really good one to become available), I can combine Spider Climb with my extra long Aberrant extendo-arms to deliver humorous debuffs. But even though I *think* I can see potential in my plan, I won't do it if the party's need to acquire multiple castings of invisibility is too great. This is where experienced advice could really help. Are there any spells so good for a Sorcerer as to be almost obligatory?
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Fair enough, there is a difference between what spells are good for a sorcerer and which are good for a wizard- there are spells that a wizard will want to know that a sorcerer needn't bother with, but most of Treant's blue rate (that's the best) spells work just as well for wizards.
Now a better sorcerer guide than mine is Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems but it's for 3.5- so you might want to check treantmonk's wizard guide anyway (example: they nerfed force cage to oblivion). The real reason i wrote the guide was to cover the things that weren't properly gone over anywhere else- the bloodlines and other changes that paizo made to 3.5 You don't need me to tell you that enervation is good- it's plastered everywhere on the net (it's wonderful by the way) I felt that between the 3.5 guides and Treantmonks re-analysis of Sorcerer/wizard spells we'd all be covered, and I called it a day. (i feel all laziness should be justified)
For the record, best multi-use first level spells include: silent image, magic missile, color spray, and grease. The best buff is Enlarge Person and I always take mage armor.
For second level try glitterdust, invisibility and resistance to energy. Gust of wind, web and mirror image are cool too.
Third level: Fly, haste and slow are fantastic. The once mighty dispel magic is still useful, I like major image, and how could i forget summon monster 3 (the first really good one, update when you can, Summon monster VIII is lame but the rest are solid I usually take summon monster 3/5/7/9 if I don't have something else in mind.)
Fourth: Enervation, Black tentacles and Dimension Door. Then Confusion polymorph and if you have a rogue friend, greater invisibility.
Fifth: Telekinesis, feeble mind and one of the walls- stone or force. Persistent image is nice and you might want to try an enchantment- like dominate person or hold monster- either can be nice, but, well, enchantment is it's own ballgame.
There's enough spells to last you until level ten, if you make it that far you'll have a good handle on what spells you want. Maybe someday I'll finish this list and add it to the guide.
The parts of your list I agree with are
1st level Silent Image, Grease
2nd level Invisibility
3rd level Haste, Dispel Magic, Major Image
4th level Dimension Door
5th level Telekinesis, Persistent Image
Those do seem to be the best of the best. I'll admit that I padded the list, but there are some others that really deserve credit- I'm surprised you're not a bigger fan of black tentacles-all the battlefield control you could dream of wrapped up in a horrific Lovecraftian nightmare. And who doesn't like walls? Or for that matter the debuffs, slow is almost as useful as haste, confusion can be a battle winner and enervation is just SO good. But to each his own- are there any spells I missed?
All straight casters are weak at the lower levels, but they aren't terribly weak. There are a couple of rules of thumb, though. Don't focus on boom spells (direct damage spells - fireball, lightning bolt, magic missile). Magic missile should be on a wand. The other spells you can probably pass on. Instead, focus on enchantment and illusion (unless your game is heavily going up against monsters who are immune to mind affecting spells).
I'm not sure I agree with this- my personal opinion is that your first spell known of each spell level should have battlefield use, and at low levels damage is still viable, and, especially to new players, very rewarding. So I can't say avoid magic missile, because at low levels it is awesome to not have to roll to hit, and at higher levels-who cares about first level spells? ( I should say that, for the record I don't think a sorcerer should focus on damage in the long run- it's bad resource management (although if you're using non-core 3.5 stuff split ray + orb of whatever + celerity is wonderful, a level twelve sorcerer can do 45d6 damage in a round- hilarious) and illusion is always a wonderful option.
I think too many people fall into the trap of looking for a 'best' sorcerer spell list, while the most successful sorcerers I've seen or heard about have been sculpted en whole so to speak.
Well yes, this is correct, which contributed to me not adding spells to the guide, but people wanted a quick list of good spells. And not all spells are equal. There are "good" spells and "bad" spells- some are better than others- more useful in more situations, more powerful in specific ones- no absolutes to be sure, but the fact remains than haste is better than fireball.
When writing guides- assume the norm- assume normal wealth per level, assume a balanced party, assume a standard point buy- because that's the way the game is written. One of my group's GM's (other than me) gives us barely any magic items and strongly limits crafting. When we get magic weapons they're all custom ideas based on no rules ranging from the powerful (a longsword that deals a negative level with every hit- no save and if the sword kills a being it raises a wight under the sword's owners control) to the stupid (a shortsword who's crit range is raised by one- doesn't stack with keen or improved critical). Therefore, greater magic weapon is a must have in my campaign- but i can't suggest it, because it the assumed rules, it's largely redundant.
So yes-there are situations that fireball is better than haste- like a solo adventure- but if you have both a fighter and a cleric, haste is better.
Again, this is just advice, take it with a grain of salt- there is no one way of doing it.
(for the record I always use the fighty classes to do the damage- it's all they're good at)
By the time the Sorcerer gets the spell, he's already got a cohort Wizard (from the Leadership feat) to provide him with the occasional scroll for this.
*blink* oh I see what you did there- the best way to play a sorcerer is to play a wizard.
I don't base plans on leadership- we're not allowed to take it. But that is a deadly combo, you've broken the feat all over again.
Fact is- We use black tentacles every battle if we can help it (my group) so it gets about three uses a day, making it worth learning in my book.
Debuffs are worse than buffs, for two reasons-
1. Your player characters are expected to live through the battle, the enemies aren't.
2. Buffs always work- no saves involved.
that said, debuffs have their place, and slow and confusion are really good ones, and should be noted as such.
one more thing: of course you can replicate it with illusions- illusions make half of the spells in the book redundant. The other spells are just their to give illusionists ideas of what to craft.
What i meant was that your sorcerer's strategy is based around his cohort covering the weak spots of the class- that cohort is probably stuck on scroll duty, thus making it so the sorcerer doesn't run out of spells easily, leadership is a game changer. I can't tell people to build strategies around leadership, as it opens a new can of worms.
And most DM's are wary about leadership, not just mine, in 3.5 they put the feat in the DM guide so the DM could restrict it easier. That feat is so good all characters should take it, regardless of charisma score- fighters can't cast spells? Leadership! Wizard wants to heal? Leadership! Already have the feat? have your cohort take leadership! (no rule against it).
Now, by all means take the feat if you can, but I'm not going to build my characters around it, as it is the single most powerful feat in either 3.5 or pathfinder (it's the only feat that gives free feats, extra actions and gives the sorcerer the spellcasting of a wizard three levels lower)
Leadership+UMD is a VERY powerful combonation- one that anyone can take. It's just that the sorcerer is so much better at it.
It's funny if I made a feat that gave you the spellcasting of another class 3 levels lower than you- people would rightly say it's overpowered. But leadership does just that, plus giving you extra actions in battle and prevents MAD by giving you a second set of stats.
Personally I'd cut out the cohort part of leadership entirely, so if a character wants a legion of adoring fans they can, but do so without breaking the campaign.
For the record, best multi-use first level spells include: silent image, magic missile, color spray, and grease. The best buff is Enlarge Person and I always take mage armor.
For second level try glitterdust, invisibility and resistance to energy. Gust of wind, web and mirror image are cool too.
Third level: Fly, haste and slow are fantastic. The once mighty dispel magic is still useful, I like major image, and how could i forget summon monster 3 (the first really good one, update when you can, Summon monster VIII is lame but the rest are solid I usually take summon monster 3/5/7/9 if I don't have something else in mind.)
Fourth: Enervation, Black tentacles and Dimension Door. Then Confusion polymorph and if you have a rogue friend, greater invisibility.
Fifth: Telekinesis, feeble mind and one of the walls- stone or force. Persistent image is nice and you might want to try an enchantment- like dominate person or hold monster- either can be...
Wow, that sounds eerily like my own projected spell list, so I take it I'm on something like the right track. I'm additionally determined to rock Stone Shape and Shrink Item. I know Shrink Item is usually treated as too circumstancial, but I just can't resist the thought of packing siege weapons and other crazy-giant stuff along in my pack. Like giant rocks! For Stone Shaping! It's just going to be so hard to wait and take all my favorite spells only one at a time!
I didn't mean to be ungrateful, btw, and I'm sorry if I sounded like I was. I read this guide eagerly while first working up my character. I really meant only to state my intense interest in further guidance. I fully support (and share) your commitment to laziness!