When we were playing this weekend, one of the players wanted to use Spellcraft to determine if any of the PCs were under the effect of a spell an enemy had just cast. We noticed that there was no Spellcraft DC listed for this situation.
I went ahead and ruled that it worked the same as in 3.5 (20 + spell level), but I'm wondering if Pathfinder removed this use of Spellcraft on purpose. The chart under the Spellcraft skill in PfRPG is much shorter than the one in the 3.5 PH. Were these additional uses of the skill purposely taken out, or was the chart cut for space with the understanding that DMs could set their own DCs for various skill uses (or use their old Player's Handbook)?
Hey Joana!
First, given that the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is a veritable tome, I doubt anything was cut with the idea in mind that you'd "just go look it up in an old version of the PHB."
Second, I think the Pathfinder system has you using Spellcraft in conjuntion with detect magic. That is, you first cast the spell to see if/which spells affect your allies; then you make Spellcraft checks to identify them.
Is this about right?
Creative Director
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Knowledge (arcana) is used in Pathfinder to identify spell effects and auras and spells. This skill is the applied knowledge of magic, and covers things like identifying existing spells and knowing what spells are and do.
Spellcraft is more "hands on" in that it is used by spellcasters to actually do magic stuff, be it learn a new spell, build magic items, identify magic items, decipher scrolls, and the like.
There's a little bit of crossover here between the two skills, but for the most part Spellcraft's the skill you'd use to actually "Craft Spell Stuff," while Knowledge (arcana) is the skill you'd use to "Know Stuff about magic."
Okay, the 3.5 chart says you "must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell," so that would call for a detect magic. As the PC had a few friendly buffs on him at the time, it would take the full 3-round-concentration to specify the unfriendly spell, so not a good action to use in battle. And then, after the three rounds, the character would make his spellcraft check to identify the particular spell in effect.
However, that's still all under 3.5 rules. PfRPG lists only "identify spell as it's being cast" and "identify properties of a magic item" as options. So is it now not an option to identify a spell already in place on a person?
EDIT: Ninja'd by the editor! Thanks, James. We were just looking at the wrong skill, then. The PC's Knowledge (arcana) is probably better than his Spellcraft, so he would have made his roll anyway.
Identifying an effect already in place is now Knowledge (arcana), not Spellcraft.
I have no idea why this is the case. It would make sense that Spellcraft is pure theory and mechanical proficiency (arcane writing, V/S/M components) and Knowledge (arcana) covers recognizing actual effects... but that can't be the model, because Spellcraft is used to identify magic items. So yeah.
Edit: Whoops, distracted and slow and sniped by James.
James, was there a specific reason for item identification to be Spellcraft?
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Creative Director
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Since Spellcraft is used to create magic items, it made sense to make it the roll you make to identify magic items as well.
Frankly... there was a point where we were actually considering removing either Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft from the game entirely since all of that stuff could live under one skill, but we decided that would be too big a hit for compatibility. I think that the solution of "Spellcraft for craft type questions" and "Knowledge (arcana) for theory" works out pretty good.
Must Knowledge (arcana) be used in conjunction with detect magic, i.e., the 3-round situation I posited above, or can a PC use it "on the fly" if he has reason to believe someone might be ensorcelled without taking the time to cast the spell?
Since Spellcraft is used to create magic items, it made sense to make it the roll you make to identify magic items as well.
Fair enough... it just seems odd that the same logic doesn't apply to spell effects already in place. I mean, you created them with Spellcraft-related finger wiggles and bibbity-bobbity. (And for the record I'd rather have items moved to arcana, than in-place effects moved to spellcraft.)
K(a) would be pretty damn strong if it included all of Spellcraft and three categories of creature lore, so I agree that the skills are reasonably kept separate. I suppose seeing an item being used would yield an arcana check...
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Creative Director
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Must Knowledge (arcana) be used in conjunction with detect magic, i.e., the 3-round situation I posited above, or can a PC use it "on the fly" if he has reason to believe someone might be ensorcelled without taking the time to cast the spell?
As long as the spell effects are visible, no. That's why identifying a spell that's being cast requires Spellcraft (since that assumes a knowledge of actual spellcasting, not just theory), while Knowledge (arcana) is used to know about spell effects already in place.
Many spell effects are not observable without detect magic, but for any effect that IS visible or observable, you wouldn't need detect magic to make an identification check.
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Frankly... there was a point where we were actually considering removing either Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft from the game entirely since all of that stuff could live under one skill, but we decided that would be too big a hit for compatibility.
I would have been okay with that kind of change. I always found it odd that identifying a divine spell could be done with the generic Spellcraft skill. It makes more sense to me that a specific Knowledge would be needed due to the source of the spell.
Example: A cleric is trained in divine magic and would use Knowledge (religion) to identify spells, but would be lost at identifying arcane spells without proper training represented by Knowledge (arcana).
With all the other changes made in skills, albeit mostly for the better, this would have made very little difference in my mind.
Must Knowledge (arcana) be used in conjunction with detect magic, i.e., the 3-round situation I posited above, or can a PC use it "on the fly" if he has reason to believe someone might be ensorcelled without taking the time to cast the spell?As long as the spell effects are visible, no. That's why identifying a spell that's being cast requires Spellcraft (since that assumes a knowledge of actual spellcasting, not just theory), while Knowledge (arcana) is used to know about spell effects already in place.
Many spell effects are not observable without detect magic, but for any effect that IS visible or observable, you wouldn't need detect magic to make an identification check.
Hm. Well, in this case, an enemy spellcaster under cover of darkness cast a spell. The PC couldn't identify it while being cast due to not seeing the somatic elements. The spell was confusion and one PC failed the save. The first 2 rounds I rolled "act normally" on the percentiles, so there were no visible effects.
So until the ensorcelled PC began acting oddly (i.e., observable effects), the other characters would have to use detect magic before being able to make a Knowledge (arcana) check. Is that right?
There's a difference between a spell with observable effects, such as Enlarge Person, and a spell with relatively invisible effects, such as Charm Person.
Generally speaking, I think you have to look with Detect Magic to detect something subtle, whereas with something obvious, you can make a Knowledge Arcana check to figure out what it most likely is.
I mean, you could have the party fighter freaking out because he was hit with a Reduce Person and is now the size of a halfling and wants to know if this is permanent. Without Detect Magic to see if there's a Permanency spell involved as well, all the people with Knowledge Arcana are going on an educated guess.
People under the effect of Confusion could also be possessed or on drugs. If Dispel Magic doesn't work, try Protection from Evil or Neutralize Poison.
