I wanted to this time around but only because it fit my character concept (and I rolled monster stats).
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I recall a campaign in which the party was ambushed by gnoll archers as they were paddling through the jungle. When they got to shore, the gnolls escaped into the brush.
A few levels later the party returned to the area, and received the same treatment. It was at this point, the bard player asked if they were within 440ft. Not sure where he was going, I said yes.
So he Dimension Door'ed the fighter and cleric right behind the archers. They proceeded to slaughter them in revenge for the humiliation.
So there is something the bard can do.
Brave
what do you think a bard can do that makes them special.
I think the whole point is that you don't want to be special!
Bards can identify everything so you know how to combat it.
Bards can buff the party in a number of ways.
Bards have some useful spells.
There isn't anything wrong in not wanting to excel at one particular thing, imo.
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Your missing my point
the wizard can do that and better
that was a one of situation and i guess there wasn't a wizard in the group.
Then why have a ranger? A fighter can shoot a bow.
Why have a paladin? A fighter can use a sword and shield.
What do we need a barbarian for? A fighter can yell and scream and swing a greataxe.
We have other classes for different options. Could we just have fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric, and just have alternate class features? Sure. But we don't.
I just want to chime in and say that I played in a game on the Necromancer Games boards where we had over 20 PCs in one room tangling with an enormous mob of Orcusite cultists.
Our bard- and with five or six adventuring parties present we still only had one bard between us- was a freak'in rockstar.
That's a slightly hyperbolic example, I'll admit, but bards still rock in large (martially inclined) groups. The more attacks a group is making, the more powerful inspire courage becomes.
Bless has an area of effect. Inspire courage affects everyone who can hear the song (and this was a big fight).
The bard was definitely our MVP.
As a side note I'd like to comment that I think you're asking the wrong question. This game we play is not an MMO, the main development concern should not be balance and niches between classes when they are compared. I believe that this is antithetical to the purpose of the pen and paper RPG. I have encountered power hungry, meta-gaming players can amuse themselves with monks that can flying kick every monster in the room for 120 dmg. This gets boring fast. The game is about expressing a character and experiencing a story, not "gaming the game" as it were. Bards have the potential to be extremely flavorful characters within a story.
Fine:
Bards get a free every round buff they can apply, In four rounds they can heal you with free actions, and they can still take a normal load of actions too:
Consider for good spells:
Haste, Slow, Mirror Image, Remove Fear, Grease, Cure Light Wounds, Sound Burst, Silence, Shatter, Hold person, Blur, Pyrotechnics, Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic, Good Hope, Major Image, Glibness, Blink, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, Neutralize Poison, Shout, Greater Dispel Magic, Song of Discord, Mind Fog, Heroes' Feast, Greater Shout, Eyebite, Summon Monster 6
All very good spells, and don't all appear on one spell list.
In addition:
Light Armor and Shields with arcane spells, Two good save throws, d8 Hit Dice, Average Bab, 6 skills a level, Bonus on Knowledge checks.
For combat considerations:
Human Bard 1
Str 18 (16+2), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14
Arcane Strike, Power attack
Long Spear 1d8+6 standard:
1st round: Inspire courage, move up behind the fighter
2nd round: Attack + 4 (+4 str - 1 Pa + 1 Inpire) 1d8+11 damage (6 str + 1 arcane + 3 pa + 1 inspire)
Now to advance him:
Human Bard 7
Str 19, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14
Arcane Strike, Power attack, Weapon Focus (long spear), Extra Bardic Music, Toughness
Precast Good Hope
1st round: Inspire Courage, Cast Haste
2nd Round: Charge up behind fighter Attack +15 (5 bab 4 str 2 Inspire 2 good hope 1 focus - 2 power attack + 1 Haste + 2 Charge) damage 1d8 + 18 (6 str + 2 inspire + 2 Arcane Strike + 2 good hope + 6 pa)
3rd Round: Attack +12/+12 Damage 1d8 +18
Again:
Human Bard 12
Str 20
Lunge (15 foot reach!), Improved Initiative
Start performing, do whatever for 3 rounds, Cure Serious Wounds on your allies in addition to whatever else you just did for 3 rounds.
Damage Improves again as Inspire Courage increases to +3 Arcane Strike now provides +3 damage, Power Attack is up to + 9 damage for a - 3 to hit, Good hope is still around as is Haste and you get another attack too. Lunge Means that if there is a cleric or wizard lurking near by you have an excellent chance of getting them in range of your 15 reach, and the AC penalty isn't so huge since you'll be striking from behind someone else.
I wanted to this time around but only because it fit my character concept (and I rolled monster stats).Brave
what do you think a bard can do that makes them special.
Um nothing really...but it's the best fit, flavor-wise, for a crazy ex-court jester.
However no one has shown me why they should work one off examples are poor at best i can give hundreds of examples where they dont work.
I'm not sure if you're having the same conversation as the rest of us.
I just want to chime in and say that I played in a game on the Necromancer Games boards where we had over 20 PCs in one room tangling with an enormous mob of Orcusite cultists.
Our bard- and with five or six adventuring parties present we still only had one bard between us- was a freak'in rockstar.
That's a slightly hyperbolic example, I'll admit, but bards still rock in large (martially inclined) groups. The more attacks a group is making, the more powerful inspire courage becomes.
if you want to play a buffer character play a cleric that way or a wizard.
Maybe if people really like this type of character maybe a tactician class should be designed to allow others options personally i think many will not play the bard class.
You play a bard if you want to play a character who is a specific fantasy archetype: the traveling storyteller and magical musician. This has shown up in mythology (Orpheus, Apollo, and the legendary Irish bards), fantasy literature (Fflewddur Fflam from the Chronicles of Prydain, Jon-Tom Merriweather and others from the Spellsinger series, many of the elves from Middle Earth, etc.), and video games (the Bard's Tale, for example).
You could play a multi-class rogue-druid to get some of this flavor, but not very effectively. And what if you don't want to "buff" your party; you want to inspire them?
It all depends on why you play the game. If the flamboyant feel of the bard isn't your cup of tea, don't play one. If it is, you can accept no substitutes.
GT
Boggle here is my question for you:
Who else can do everything the bard can do?
The fighter can't, the cleric can't, the wizard can't, the rogue can't, the druid can't, the sorcerer can't, the paladin can't, the barbarian can't the monk can't.
No one else is as good at buffing as the bard, no one else can get as much out as cheaply as the bard, no one else can get the same level of combat (without spending 10 rounds buffing first) while having spells to cast, and no one else can do all that and still have as many skill points as the bard does too.
You just can't get as much in any of the other classes as you can out of the bard.
And the Bard doesn't just make himself better -- Everything he does makes everyone in the party better.
*****
Of course you may say you can, but until it is proven it hasn't happened.
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All I'm saying is that you're doing nothing constructive. You tear down every point we give by saying 'x can do it better'. Well how would YOU fix it then? Are you seriously just here to bash the bard class? Why does it bother you so much? And why are you putting forth so much energy over something you dislike?
No one buffs better than the bard.
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To be honest in my group that has been running for other twenty five years
no one ever plays the bard.
even thou the new rules give it a bit more it just has never worked as the jack of all trades.
I think it still is way off in terms of effectiveness and what it can do.
Can anyone please tell me if you would play one why?
1: Bardic Knowledge.
Remember Knowledge Local? The requirement that this knowledge refer to a particular city or area means that the number of characters who take ranks in this will be limited. Bards are able to make such skill checks (in fact all skill checks) untrained and add half their level to their skill.Knowing a local place to purchase specific supplies, the location of the nearest police station, rumors as to why a particular building is haunted etc... is ridiculously useful.
2: Countersong.
There are a large number of language/sonic based effects that can wipe a party due to poor rolls. This becomes even more useful with a Barbarian in the gorup, where there's the danger of confusion effects meaning your heaviest hitter isn't just out of the fight, but possibly working against you.
Nevermind some sonic based save or die effects I've seen.
3:Buffing.
Nothing here that other classes can't do as well, but that's assuming you have the right class makeup.
4: Skills.
Once again rogue is theoretically better here, but he is reliant on other classes for spell support.
Also note that the ability for Bards to use their performance skills instead of select others allows for skill focus and other bonuses to really shine. Imagine a bard with perform dance using his very focused skills for a fly check. Is there really any other class that's going to be able to match that?
Bards also make superlative party faces.
I can continue at some length on the subject, but the short answer is that they have very useful abilities that are unique to them, and have the ability to fill in a large number of positions in a party.
He's asking for points made in the bard's defense, then striking them down when they don't change his mind. And there's nothing wrong with that; usually it's something people do when they're hoping that someone, eventually, is going to make a really GOOD point that will change their mind.
I don't think there is such a single haymaker-post to be made for the bard, though. There isn't much that the bard can do which someone else isn't better at. His strength (in theory) comes from the fact that he can do EVERYTHING and be at least half-decent at it.
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Okay, I'm a little clearer on it now, thanks Boggle, Hydro. I can totally admit that bards are risky propositions. Said bard from my previous example didn't really get effective until after a few levels of Master Thrower and getting to 3rd level spells. I guess it just depends on if players know the limits of the class. A frontline bard does NOT have a very long life expectancy. Someone who plays the support side better should last awhile longer.
I'm not sure if you're having the same conversation as the rest of us.However no one has shown me why they should work one off examples are poor at best i can give hundreds of examples where they dont work.
its my converstion
so unless im a split personality i must be lol
I hope
Perhaps you need to clarify your question. You asked why people play bards, and a number of people have stated why they like to play bards, and you are saying that their reasons are false or aren't good enough.
What exactly are you asking? Are they better at one thing than any other class? The obvious answer is no, because they are a Jack of All Trades, MASTER OF NONE.
Now, what do they bring to the table? I did play in a large group where there were a lot of melee focused players...and 1 bard. All he wanted to do was buff the party, and for the first time I thought the bard was actually TOO powerful of a class. Now, obviously that's not a typical group, but when your fighters are all out power attacking because they get enough buff bonus that they'll hit anyway, some serious damage gets put in play. Also, by the way, later in that game I played a buffing Wizard, along with the bard, and there was a cleric who occasionally buffed others (he was more into self buffing). The group became unstoppable, because most of the buffs stacked. I think the DM went bald after this campaign...
Anyway, why play a bard? because you want to heal and buff AND you want to be a skill monkey AND you want to be a spontaneous caster AND you want some fun arcane spells (that clerics don't get) AND you want some of the fun that is druidic spells AND you want to be a Use Magic Device expert for those spells you can't cast on your own AND you want to hold your own in melee...it's not because you want to do one thing, it's because you are indecisive and want to do everything.
Where a bard particularly shines is in large and small groups. Small group? Well he can fill multiple niches, though perhaps not one of which is filled as well by another class. Large group? His buffs quickly change the tide of battle. Standard Group? Well, you may be better off with a Rogue, a Wizard, a Cleric, and a Fighter.
Why put an 18 in Str? I would have put that into his Charisma. Why? Because you can substitue your perform skill for someone's saving throw. In cases of will saves, it comes in very, very handy. (+4 for Chr, +4 from ranks, +3 from Skill Focus-Perform equals +11 at first level.) Now show me how a cleric or wizard at first level can do that?
Because it isn't every save throw, it's not a common save to make, and Charisma isn't a particularly important stat for the bard (unless you are trying to make a spell caster out of it), where as an 18 str has an effect on every attack roll you make on every round as well as the amount of stuff you can drag around with you (and climb/ swim checks). In addition you get much more damage (read faster killing) out of that high str than you do out of the high Charisma. Also in order to subsitute for the save throw you must use a bardic music which means you're a round down for it (and a standard/move/swift action) and you aren't making everything else better.
Now this isn't to say there isn't a place for such a thing, there is, but that one effect alone isn't enough to justify (in my opinion) a hit to a primary function to the build I presented.
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Now this isn't to say you can't make a good spell casting Bard with a high charisma, it is quite possible, and still a good idea for a many reasons, however that wasn't this build.
I'm playing a bard right now. In a Second Darkness campaign. He rocks.
First, he's the party's healer. Mostly through a staff of healing (which bards can use and recharge).
Second, for a long time, he was the party's magical artillery (mostly wands and scrolls activated through UMD).
Third, I play him as a gish. Bard 8 Fighter 1 Eldritch Knight 5 right now. Round 1 casts a spell (standard action) and activate inspire courage (move action). Someone else casts haste. Round 2 I'm power-attacking for 2d4+24 damage. Power attack scaling by base attack instead of strength really helps high-dex low-str melee builds, BTW.
Fourth, he's the only character with ranks in social skills, so he gets lots of face time.
You ask why anyone plays a bard? I ask why everyone else isn't!
Are you talking about 4E? Cause if you are, why play such a sucktastic ode to mediocrity?
I hope this is some 4e rules reference that I'm not following (i.e, 'clerics in 4e are sucktastic odes to mediocrity').
If you're slamming 4e in general, then please just go away.
Edit: Okay, taken literally that's definitely a bit harsh; it's not like I'm trying to exile you from the forum or anything, nor are you some troll who never makes constructive posts.
But, as Spalding said, that kind of edition smack-talk isn't welcome or necessary.
Are you talking about 4E? Cause if you are, why play such a sucktastic ode to mediocrity?
Thats a crazy point to be honest play a cleric they are better at healing now especially with healing surges.So who cares again its a buff for someone else its good to have not great and certainly not a primary reason to take one.
I have a feeling he was refering to the Channel Energy ability.
Are you talking about 4E? Cause if you are, why play such a sucktastic ode to mediocrity?I hope this is some 4e rules reference that I'm not following (i.e, 'clerics in 4e are sucktastic odes to mediocrity').
If you're slamming 4e in general, then please just go away.
Agree with Hydro here, that sort of stuff isn't welcomed, and isn't needed. Pathfinder is awesome enough to not have to bash anyone else.
It would be, and would offer many more options too, as many of the save spells begin to look attractive at that point. The biggest lost in this case is the fact you drop two points of damage with the long spear (1 for strength 1 for 1/2 strength), but that's not huge either.
I would point out that the bards also have a nice debuff in Dirge of Doom. No save throw, just straight to shaken, and the other songs that debuff also have the added advantage of always having a good DC thanks to DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Cha mod. If you play with traits, the Attractive trait would be nice on some of the bardic music abilities.