Why have a bard class?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pernilla wrote:


Perhaps. But a balanced group with skilled players will do well too. It's more of a question if the players are stupid or not.

aye, but not all of us have one of those.


Dissinger wrote:


Actually what I'm saying, is that they are the jack of all trades. Also as a skill monkey you don't need to have a rogue in the party if something occurs where a skill might be useful. Bards can do the rogues skill jobs as skills are less taxing on their skill points than other classes. (Their skill points per level is only second to the rogue)

Yes you are right. They are jack of all trades. But having a Bard in the Party does not always equal no need to have a rogue. Rogues are more dex based and have sneak attack and disable device. I would say a ranger or monk would do the rogues job better than the bard. They usually have a higher dex than the bard and they are more focused on combat.

But yes, both classes, Rogue and Bard, have a lot of skills. So the opposite is equal true: 'Also as a skill monkey you don't need to have a Bard in the party if something occurs where a skill might be useful.' Especially since a Party without a bard usually have a cleric, wizard and tank. All these classes have knowledge skills and other skills.

I think their is a general misconception that you must max a skill and have a high attribute to go with it to be able to use a skill. That might be true when using disable device, but not true when using sense motive, diplomacy, climb, knowledge skills, etc.

Dissinger wrote:


I think you're missing my point. The point you made was anyone can buff. My point was yes, anyone can buff, but to have the same selection of buffs, only the bard wins that game. Since they get a lot of divine AND arcane buffs, it helps make them uniquely placed to apply buffs that unless you had two other players playing both arcane and divine, would not be in combination.

The bard spell list is designed more for utility, less for damage. While its not completely free of damage dealing spells, bards do get a wider selection of buffing abilities.

No I'm not missing your point, but I think you are missing my point.

I'm not sure the bard is the best buff class if we are talking about spells. Clerics got prot from evil, Shield of Faith, bless, prayer, resist energy, bull's str, Eagle’s Splendor, Bear’s Endurance, magic weapon, greater magic weapon, Shield Other, Protection from Energy, Magic Vestment, Magic Circle against Evil, Water Breathing, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, True Seeing, Death Ward, Heroes’ Feast, Bull’s Strength, Mass, Holy Aura. I can go on.
Then when things go wrong they got all healing spells and all damage dealing spells and spells like Remove Paralysis, Restoration, etc.
If we talk about domain spells and domain powers we have Inspiring Word, holy sword and Dimensional Hop as powers. There are more.
Spells: detect thoughts, fly, invisibility, dimension door, etc.
You are right, the bard is the only class with the bard spell list.

But a cleric and a Sorcerer/Wizard will do just fine. In fact a cleric and a Rogue with UMD will do fine too. I've seen it myself.
But most parties have both a healer and a Sorcerer or Wizard, and we have UMD.

No class have Bardic performance, true (a cleric with the Nobility domain comes close), but they got other stuff going for them.
inspire courage +2 is great at level 5. At level seven is just as good because you can use it as a move action. The bard still has the problem of few spells cast per day. So he needs some scrolls, but he'll di all right.
But at level 10 it's still inspire courage +2 and the bard has the same spells. Haste, good hope, etc. He now can cast two level 4 spells, sure, but at this point Sorcerer/Wizard has lot more spells and things just get worse higher up. But at level 5 - 8 the bard is great.

Dissinger wrote:
Countering my counter argument with "well everyone is a unique snowflake" hardly discredits the point I'm trying to prove. I hope by clarifying my viewpoint you understand what I'm trying to accomplish.

Well I'm just a little tired of people saying the bard is unique. If I read you wrong, my apology.

The Bard is uniqe and I like him. Not all do. In games upp to level 8 or 9 he is nice.
Some of the arguments I've read hasn't impressed me much. If you look for a back up healer go for Druid or Paladin. There actually people who say the Paladin is a better healer than the cleric. And at lower levels the healing a bard can do, can just as easely be accomplished useing a wand.
And the argument, "what if?", just doesn't do anything to me.
What if the cleric is dead and we are locked in a room and the rogue has broken both is hands and the wizard is Feebleminded and we need to get out of a the locked room and the fighter has 7 negativ levels.
Yes what if.

Dark Archive

Quote:
Clerics got prot from evil, Shield of Faith, bless, prayer, resist energy, bull's str, Eagle’s Splendor, Bear’s Endurance, magic weapon, greater magic weapon, Shield Other, Protection from Energy, Magic Vestment, Magic Circle against Evil, Water Breathing, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, True Seeing, Death Ward, Heroes’ Feast, Bull’s Strength, Mass, Holy Aura. I can go on.

Bards Get

Level 1
Featherfall
Remove Fear
Beastland Ferocity
Crabwalk

Level 2
Battle Hymn
Harmonic Chorus
Iron Silence
Lively Step
Sonic Weapon
Tactical Precision
Blur
Delay poison
Fox's Cunning
Heroism
Invisibility
Rage
Silence
Cat's Grace,
Eagle's Splendor
Reflective Disguise

Level 3
Allegro
Dolorous Blow
Hymn of Praise
Displacement
Gaseous Form
Glibness
Haste
Good Hope
Phantom Steed
Remove CUrse
Sculpt Sound
Tiny Hut

4th Level
Protege
Greater Resistance
Ethereal mount
Break Enchantment
Dimension Door
Freedom of Movement
Greater Invisibility
Neutralize Poison
Secure Shelter

5th Level Spells
Greater Heroism
Hidden Lodge
Mass Reflective Disguise

6th Level Spells
Mass Cat's Grace
Mass Eagle's Splendor
Mass Fox's Cunning
Heroes' Feast
Veil
Revenance
Superior Resistance

Now granted some of these aren't combat friendly. But some of these kick the stuffing out of other buffs. This is what the bard is capable of doing to their allies. The other 75% of their stuff, is what they do to the enemy.

Bards aren't the one that goes out and wins one for the team.

They're the guy that goes out and helps the team win one for the team.

This sets them apart from other characters, as they aren't designed to be the star of the show, they give that to the fighter and the rogue. They just don't let the fighter and rogue forget who helped them get it done in the end.

I think this is where the hangup is. Bard is a support character than can intermittently fill in where they are needed.

People are taking this to mean that you don't need the guys they replace, and I'll admit my wording supported such thoughts.

No, it means that those people are free to pursue other options, because the basics are covered.


Boggle wrote:

Its not a four person group it actually eight players

Let's say you have 4 Pcs that actually do melee combat, plus the bard.

At level 11th the Bard can buff your entire party, just using Good Hope and Inspire Courage, for +5 to attack and +5 to damage. If your melee classes and the bard have all Power Attack and use a two handed weapon, that's +2 to attack and +14 to damage (BAB +11).
Even not using Power Attack, a +5 to attack is about 25% more damage average.

Example: Fighter level 11, str 22, +2 magic weapon, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, Weapon trainig +2,
Attack: +11+6+1+1+2+2 = +23/+18/+13
Damage: sword 4.5+6+2+2+2 = 16.5
Greatsword: 7+9+2+2+2 = 22
Average damage Vs AC 25:
Sword: (95%+70%+45%) * 16.5 = 2.1 * 16.5 = 34.65
Greatsword: (95%+70%+45%) * 22 = 2.1 * 22 = 46.2

Adding Bard's Good Hope and Inspire Courage without Power Attack
Sword: (95%+95%+70%) * 21.5 = 2.6 * 21.5 = 55.9
Greatsword: (95%+95%+70%) * 27 = 2.6 * 27 = 70.2

Adding Bard's Good Hope and Inspire Courage with Power Attack
Sword: (95%+80%+55%) * 27.5 = 2.3 * 27.5 = 63.25
Greatsword: (95%+80%+55%) * 36 = 2.3 * 36 = 82.8

As you see, a bard almost doubles the damage done by every fighter you have in your group with power attack, and he can do some damage too.
Example: Bard level 11, str 20, +2 magic weapon, weapon focus, arcane strike.
Attack: +8+5+2+1 = +16/+11
Damage: 1d8+5+2+3 = 1d8+10
Average damage Vs AC 25:
Sword: (55%+30%) * 14.5 = 0.85 * 14.5 = 12.32
Spear: (55%+30%) * 16.5 = 0.85 * 16.5 = 14.02
Adding Bard's Good Hope and Inspire Courage without Power Attack
Sword: (80%+50%) * 19.5 = 1.3 * 19.5 = 25.35
Spear: (80%+50%) * 21.5 = 1.3 * 21.5 = 27.95
Adding Bard's Good Hope and Inspire Courage with Power Attack
Sword: (70%+40%) * 23.5 = 1.1 * 23.5 = 25.85
Spear: (70%+40%) * 27.5 = 1.1 * 27.5 = 30.25

Even in the case of a group of shield and board melee fighters without power attack, a bard is adding 21 points of damage per fighter every round, plus another 25 damage with his own attacks. That's easily 100 points of damage per round.

Of course, the numbers are debatible: first of all, I didn't double check my maths, so there will be errors (probably); I suppose every melee attacking PC is a fighter of a given build; I take an arbitrarian AC and level; etc.
But I also didn't take in account other buffs the Bard can be casting, for ex. Haste (freeing the Wizard so he can cast slow / nuke /etc.). The damage added to a two weapon fighting rogue is also greater than that to a fighter:
Same attack as Bard: +16/+11 --> +16/+16/+11/+11 2WF, flanking
Damage: 1d6+7+6d6 = 3.5+7+21 = 31.5
Average damage
Shortsword: (55%+55%+30%+30%) * 31.5 = 1.7 * 31.5 = 53.55
Adding Bard's Good Hope and Inspire Courage without Power Attack
ShortSword: (80%+80%+55%+55%) * 36.5 = 2.7 * 31.5 = 98.55

So if your players haven't seen how useful can be a bard in a group of 8 characters, well... maybe they didn't try enough.

Liberty's Edge

If bards didn't exist, neither would Elan.

Seriously, doesn't this just crystallize what bards are all about?

QED.


250+ posts? This should have been over after 3.

I'm doing you all a favour and prevent you from wasting more time by ending this debate for you, forever:

Bard is there because it is a fun class to play. Don't think so? Don't play it. Don't think the class should be there because you don't like it? Go and play something else, something that is not Pathfinder.

There are still bard fans, and they will get to keep their class. It's not just your game, it's theirs as well. Actually, since some of those fans happen to be Paizo people, one could argue that it's more their game than yours.

So everybody stop complaining that the class doesn't lend itself that well to power gaming and acknowledge that the game is about more people and about more styles of play.

Go on, everyone. Nothing to see here.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

But what shall we howl into our intertubes about now?


Dissinger wrote:


Bards Get

Level 1
Featherfall
Remove Fear

Just as Remove Paralysis and Restoration are not buff spells nore are Featherfall and Remove Fear.

I could have added the whole lits of cleric spells and all domainspells. The list would have been longer.
I was just showing a cleric is a good buffer. Having a buff competition is just silly. Who is the best buffer. I say the cleric. She can cast more buffs per day. But You may not agree and that's fine. I just pointing out it's not obvious the bard is the best buffer.

Dissinger wrote:


Beastland Ferocity
Crabwalk
Level 2
Battle Hymn
Harmonic Chorus
Iron Silence
Lively Step
Sonic Weapon
Tactical Precision
Reflective Disguise
Allegro
Dolorous Blow
Hymn of Praise
Protege
Greater Resistance
Mass Reflective Disguise
Revenance
Superior Resistance

These spell are not in my book.

Dissinger wrote:


Bards aren't the one that goes out and wins one for the team.
They're the guy that goes out and helps the team win one for the team.

Agree.


James Jacobs wrote:


[...]Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points. It's very much a tougher version of inspire competence, but geared toward defense as well as offense, and not one that's as much a "Help EVERYONE" power as it is to help a few allies.

"Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points."

What does this mean? Does it mean +2 to BAB and saves and +2 to caster level, etc?
Answer please :-)


houstonderek wrote:

If bards didn't exist, neither would Elan.

Seriously, doesn't this just crystallize what bards are all about?

QED.

LOL

Dark Archive

Pernilla wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


[...]Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points. It's very much a tougher version of inspire competence, but geared toward defense as well as offense, and not one that's as much a "Help EVERYONE" power as it is to help a few allies.

"Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points."

What does this mean? Does it mean +2 to BAB and saves and +2 to caster level, etc?
Answer please :-)

It means that you have more hit dice for hit dice dependent effects like Blasphemy.


Boggle wrote:

To be honest in my group that has been running for other twenty five years

no one ever plays the bard.

even thou the new rules give it a bit more it just has never worked as the jack of all trades.

I think it still is way off in terms of effectiveness and what it can do.

Can anyone please tell me if you would play one why?

You’ve been given a lot of good (and bad) suggestions.

In terms of effectiveness, as Zombieneighbours said: "Bards are very good at interacting with the social conflict rules(for what they are worth). They are in fact, very likely the best at doing so." Or as I would put it, one of the best classes at doing so. So a campaign with a lot of roleplaying would work fine with a Bard.
Another example has not been mentioned as far as I can tell.
Here the Bard would not only be a good choice but a great choice, in fact the best choice
This is when you got a sorcerer in a group of five or more. Especially when the rest of the group focus on weapon damage, Fighter, combat Rogue, (combat) cleric, Sorcerer and Bard.
Now, the rogue and cleric won’t boost their Int. The rogue will have max 13 int and the cleric 10. The cleric will have Char 13 or 14 and the rogue will have char 7 – 12.
The fighter will have max 13 in and probably dump its char.
If you play a sorcerer you don’t want to prepare spells, you pick fireball at level 6 and you probably just go for dex, con and charisma.
The problem with Sorcerer: not many skill points, not many class skills, not many spells known.
The Bard on the other hand has many skill points, many class skill, more spells known than the Sorcerer.
Problem with Bard. Bad DC not any good damage dealing spells and not many attack spells.
So a Bard should not pick slow but should pick haste, good hope etc.
Lets look at this rocking combo. Since you have a bard in the group he can pick all the utility spells and the sorcerer can go for all spells with a DC. Bards can still pick stuff like Grease and Glitterdust since these two also serves as utility spells and he will also pick CLW and CMW. Bard has many skills so the sorcerer can settle for 10 int and just boost that charisma.
At level 7 bard picks haste. At level 5 and 6 he use scrolls with haste. Sorcerer doesn’t have to pick haste at level 7 but should pick slow (or whatever). Until now the bard have boosted the group and helped out with some healing when the cleric chooses to go melee. At level 8 things change however.
Bard built. There have been a lot of talk about the melee bard. I think that’s just stupid . The bard have light armor and need it’s dex. If the bard dumps it’s dex the cleric just will need to heal one more party member. Every time the bard heals himself another party member isn’t getting healed by the bard. Go archer.
Str 12 – 14 (You may have to go melee sometimes and you want a mighty bow)
Dex – high
Con 12 or 14
Int 13 or 14
Wis 7 or 8 (don’t dump it too much)
Char 15. (You want 16 at level 7 when you get your level 3 spells.)
Point blank shot, precise shot, Deadly aim. Improved Initiative. If you multiclass, play Elf or spend a feat you can use a longbow, a might longbow.
I would try to stay away from Extra Performance. At higher level you won’t need it.
So you have a general idea. But at level 8 the fun begins. All this talk about buff but no talk of debuff. Dirge of Doom, No save! In our party we have just starting to use it and it is MEAN.
So you want a high dex and Improved Initiative. You want to ha a high Initiative.

Round 1.
Bard - Dirge of Doom + good hope.
Sorcerer - cast fire ball (or slow)
Round 2
Bard - Dirge of Doom or Inspire Courage + haste
Sorcerer - cast slow (or fire ball or whatever)
Round 3
Bard start using Inspire Courage, attack with bow

Our bard has 18 Charisma. Using Dirge of Doom spells like Glitterdust even Grease works well. The ogre is blind and/ or has dropped his weapon.
Our cleric usually cast holy smite first round in a big fight but waits until the bard starts using Dirge of Doom.
Most foes goes blind and holy smite doesn’t hurt the party since we are all good, so it can be used in an are with both foes and party members.
Bard is not for all. But in a larger group when the arcane caster is a sorcerer his is the best fifth member you can get. If you have a ranger as well in the group it’s even better. With Inspire Courage the other party members will be able to use Power attack and deadly aim all the time.
If you think this is just not for you, well sorry. I agree the bard is not always a good pick and the bard (and the Barbarian) could use some more love. But teaming a bard with a sorcerer is excellent.


Dissinger wrote:
Pernilla wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


[...]Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points. It's very much a tougher version of inspire competence, but geared toward defense as well as offense, and not one that's as much a "Help EVERYONE" power as it is to help a few allies.

"Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points."

What does this mean? Does it mean +2 to BAB and saves and +2 to caster level, etc?
Answer please :-)
It means that you have more hit dice for hit dice dependent effects like Blasphemy.

Since the HD don't linger you have to ready an action all the time. Am I wrong? I just want to know.

Dark Archive

Pernilla wrote:
Dissinger wrote:
Pernilla wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


[...]Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points. It's very much a tougher version of inspire competence, but geared toward defense as well as offense, and not one that's as much a "Help EVERYONE" power as it is to help a few allies.

"Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points."

What does this mean? Does it mean +2 to BAB and saves and +2 to caster level, etc?
Answer please :-)
It means that you have more hit dice for hit dice dependent effects like Blasphemy.
Since the HD don't linger you have to ready an action all the time. Am I wrong? I just want to know.

Basically so long as the song is in effect, the people affected y the song count as having two more hit dice. This means, that if you face a Balor or similar creature with Blasphemy, you can somewhat mitigate the problem of being a lower HD than them by bumping yours up 2HD along with the key players who HAVE to stay up.

So yes they only last for so long, but so long as the song is there, those hit dice are in effect.


Dissinger wrote:
[...] This means, that if you face a Balor or similar creature with Blasphemy, you can somewhat mitigate the problem of being a lower HD than them by bumping yours up 2HD along with the key players who HAVE to stay up.[...]

Ok. Thank you :-)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Pernilla wrote:

Honestly you can't play a funny character if you are not funny.

Hilarious charceters are usually played by hilarious people (or by people who at least put their soul into the game and are some what funny or try their best to be).
This is absolutely true, but like Zombieneighbors said, is a problem if the mechanics don't back it up. If said hilarious person is playing a fighter with CHA 8, he is not roleplaying his character. He is playing himself. The bard class has the mechanics to back up a witty charmer, with CHA-based casting, high skill points, and social skill selection. The effects of a characters CHA score on roleplaying is something a lot of people forget, including myself.

This just isn't true. When I mean funny, I'm not talking jokes. I'm talking about roleplaying. A fighter with a drinking problem, a rogue with agoraphobia, a cleric that doesn't like to heal a stupid Brbarian that get fooled by the rogue all the time, all these characters can be hilarious.

Some people do roleplaying just by rollplaying some do both.
The concept that just charisma characters with social skills can roleplay is just not true. However, I you need to use diplomacy, bluff, etc. you need charisma and some skills in diplomacy. Agree.
So if by roleplaying you mean a campaign that focus on social interaction with non playing characters and the need to use diplomacy, bluff etc. the bard, cleric and other charsima based classes have it easier.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Hmm, I may have misunderstood your arguement. So I can't say for certain if we're on the same side or not. XD

Dark Archive

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hmm, I may have misunderstood your arguement. So I can't say for certain if we're on the same side or not. XD

That's okay Tri, we'll always have Paris!


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hmm, I may have misunderstood your arguement. So I can't say for certain if we're on the same side or not. XD

I must have failed my Linguistics check :-)

Scarab Sages

Boggle: I haven't read all of the posts, so maybe someone has said this. The main reason to have a bard class is its an interesting role-playing option. A character that is a jack-of-all-trades, and an expert in social interaction. A character that can extoll the virtues of his allies and demoralize the enemy. A character that is both respected and reviled by the society he lives in. A character that is extremely knowledgeable about every topic. Sure, a rogue can out-sneak a bard, a fighter can out-fight him, the wizard can out-spell him and the cleric can out-proselytize him. But the bard can do it all.


allen trussell wrote:
Boggle: I haven't read all of the posts, so maybe someone has said this. The main reason to have a bard class is its an interesting role-playing option.

I said it. Repeatedly. But it's okay. Apparently it needs to be said more. If we had signatures, I'd put something about it in mine.


Pernilla wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


[...]Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points. It's very much a tougher version of inspire competence, but geared toward defense as well as offense, and not one that's as much a "Help EVERYONE" power as it is to help a few allies.

"Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points."

What does this mean? Does it mean +2 to BAB and saves and +2 to caster level, etc?
Answer please :-)

Again.

May we have an official answer? Please.


Pernilla wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:


Sculpt Sound is the ultimate "party stealth" spell
Would you explain this to me please.

Again how is that? You don't turn invisible.

Dark Archive

Pernilla wrote:
Pernilla wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


[...]Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points. It's very much a tougher version of inspire competence, but geared toward defense as well as offense, and not one that's as much a "Help EVERYONE" power as it is to help a few allies.

"Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points."

What does this mean? Does it mean +2 to BAB and saves and +2 to caster level, etc?
Answer please :-)

Again.

May we have an official answer? Please.

It says right in the book pernilla, while the song is in effect you have +2 hit dice.

This means for spells that rely on how many hit dice you have (like sleep, daze, blasphemy ect.) you count as having two more hit dice.

Its pretty straight forward.

As for your other question on sculpt sound, it changes the sounds you make into any other sound. This means you can effectively sculpt the sounds of the paladin in full plate, to sound like a rustling wind, something no guard is going to check up on.

Dark Archive

For your viewing pleasure...

Hee hee


The Bard out buffs everyone else (as demonstrated with the song+ good hope combo above)

The melee people soon become addicted to that extra bit of help hitting more often and harder. Soon they are clamouring for the Bards abilities every combat as much as for the cleric to heal them. "Give me more of the good stuff Mr Bard."

Is this a good thing for your game?

you decide.


Dissinger wrote:


As for your other question on sculpt sound, it changes the sounds you make into any other sound. This means you can effectively sculpt the sounds of the paladin in full plate, to sound like a rustling wind, something no guard is going to check up on.

Sorry to say you are wrong. You are thinking 3.x. In Pathfinder it is:

"Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty."

Stealth is not vs. listen. It's vs. perception. So unless he is invisible it doesn't matter if you cast sculpt sound.

Even if he is invisible there are som problems.
Invisibility page 302
"Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks.
This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving."

So the +20 reduction from moving is a combination of many factors. You might stepp in a puddle or break a twig or upset some birds or kick some gravel or whatecer. Sure the Paladin would sound like a rustling wind, but the gravel and twing on the gound won't. That is, the surroundings is still affected by the Paladin even if he has an Armor Check Penalty of 0, and sounds like a rustling wind AND is invisible.


Dissinger wrote:
Pernilla wrote:
Pernilla wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


[...]Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points. It's very much a tougher version of inspire competence, but geared toward defense as well as offense, and not one that's as much a "Help EVERYONE" power as it is to help a few allies.

"Inspire greatness is a way for a bard to boost HD, which does a lot more than just boost hit points."

What does this mean? Does it mean +2 to BAB and saves and +2 to caster level, etc?
Answer please :-)

Again.

May we have an official answer? Please.

It says right in the book pernilla, while the song is in effect you have +2 hit dice.

This means for spells that rely on how many hit dice you have (like sleep, daze, blasphemy ect.) you count as having two more hit dice.

Its pretty straight forward.

I don't think it is pretty straight forward.

If an ally is affected by HD dependent effect, would the effect end if he/she got 2 more HD?
I'll will start a new thread about it (when I'm up to it). But just a reflection.
A) So if the bard wins the initiative AND
B) If the bard, for some reason, think Inspire greatness would be good this time and starts are performing it AND
C) you meet a foe that CAN Blasphemy AND and has prepared it AND
D) Inspire greatness would make a difference. That is: you are not high enough level just not to care or you level is not so low that Inspire greatness would have no effect. AND
E) The foe cast blasphemy

Then it would be usefull to the one who get the bonus HD, probably not the bard himself so he would be Paralyzed unless he has a ring of freedom of movment (or the spell cast on him before the battle).

If Inspire greatness could be activated as an Immediate Action I could see the point in it.

Dark Archive

Quote:
Pernilla wrote:

It says right in the book pernilla, while the song is in effect you have +2 hit dice.

This means for spells that rely on how many hit dice you have (like sleep, daze, blasphemy ect.) you count as having two more hit dice.

Its pretty straight forward.

I don't think it is pretty straight forward.

If an ally is affected by HD dependent effect, would the effect end if he/she got 2 more HD?
I'll will start a new thread about it (when I'm up to it). But just a reflection.
A) So if the bard wins the initiative AND
B) If the bard, for some reason, think Inspire greatness would be good this time and starts are performing it AND
C) you meet a foe that CAN Blasphemy AND and has prepared it AND
D) Inspire greatness would make a difference. That is: you are not high enough level just not to care or you level is not so low that Inspire greatness would have no effect. AND
E) The foe cast blasphemy

Then it would be usefull to the one who get the bonus HD, probably not the bard himself so he would be Paralyzed unless he has a ring of freedom of movment (or the spell cast on him before the battle).

If Inspire greatness could be activated as an Immediate Action I could see the point in it.

SO you're saying when you fight Balors, you won't inspire greatness to mitigate their at will spell like ability Blasphemy?

Interesting...

Also it can prevent certain hit dice dependent effects like sleep or daze. However it must be done ahead of time. If you're facing a lot of small creatures the temporary hit points might just come more in handy than anything else, because they're going to get attacked, a lot.

As for effects in the PFCRB let me list them all

Daze
Sleep
Hypnotism
Cause Fear
Daze Monster
Hypnotic Pattern
Scare
Deep Slumber
Lesser Geas
Rainbow Pattern
Cloud Kill
Lesser Planar Binding
Planar Binding
Circle of Death
Undeath to Death
Banishment
Greater Planar Binding

Now obviously not all of these are applicable to a bard playing Inspire Greatness, but this is just in the PFCRB, imagine if you add all the WotC splatbooks on top of this, spells like Fleshshivner and other horrible things dependent on Hit Dice.

There is something to be said for inspire competence or inspire courage, but all the songs are useful in their own right.

The Exchange

I had a buddy play a bard in a game I ran (3.5)and I hated the class. He made the entire group better! Their hit ratio went up a ton, the damage they dealt was much more, when he cast spells other than buffs or cures it was nasty(usually a save or suck to death), and the dude had all the perfect skills. The player decided to let the bard totally suck in melee and just plunked enemies with a bow at range for minimal damage but when you added up the extra damage from each other player's hits and factored in the difference in hits and misses from his buffs, he put out more damage than any other PC in that game consistantly. He didn't get as much glory because he almost never actually killed a creature but his efforts made the entire party work better in every way possible which made him the star. He also had the skills to pull more tail than anyone in the party and rarely spent a night in town alone.

The other reasons....
Six pages of posters defending the Bard class......'nuff said.


Dissinger wrote:


SO you're saying when you fight Balors, you won't inspire greatness to mitigate their at will spell like ability Blasphemy?

Interesting...

1) No I did not say that. Read again.

2) How many Balors willyou meet at level 9 or 11? If you do meet them, you are dead anyway.

Dissinger wrote:


Also it can prevent certain hit dice dependent effects like sleep or daze.
At level 9 daze and most of the spells you have mentioned does not effect you. At level 11 Inspire Courage is +3 and Inspire Greatness is still +2 and still only affects 1 person. And at level 11 you are either immune to all the spells you have mentioned or Distraction is a bettrer option (Hypnotic Pattern and Rainbow Pattern).
Dissinger wrote:


However it must be done ahead of time.

Yes, That was one of my big points and you won't always know what you are up agains or what spells the caster has preperaed or which spell is is going to cast. Even if you did you must still win the initiativ.

Playing out hypothetical situations does not convince me of the usefulness of Inspire Greatness. Especially if the situation is unlikely.
Arguments like "if a + b + c + d + e +f then it can be useful", does not convince me.
So if inspire greatness could be activated as an Immediate Action it would be a good, but it doesn't and the DH don't linger.

Dissinger wrote:


If you're facing a lot of small creatures the temporary hit points might just come more in handy than anything else, because they're going to get attacked, a lot.

? If facing a lot of small creatures giving +2HD to one person is not a good option. James pointed out that the great thing about the bonus HD is not the hit points. So my question was. What's the point with the 2HD?

Dissinger wrote:


As for effects in the PFCRB let me list them all [...]

As I said before. Most of these spells are not a problem at level 9. At level 11 the only spell that matter is Blasphemy.

Dissinger wrote:


Now obviously not all of these are applicable to a bard.

Yes, that is one of my poits.

Dissinger wrote:


imagine if you add all the WotC splatbooks on top of this

No I won't. I'm talking about the PF Final.

  • official answer please: If an ally is ALREADY affected by an HD dependent effect, would the effect end if the ally got 2 more HD if the allys new total HD would make the ally immune to the effect in the first place?

  • Dark Archive

    Pernilla wrote:

    No I won't. I'm talking about the PF Final.

    official answer please: If an ally is ALREADY affected by an HD dependent effect, would the effect end if the ally got 2 more HD if the allys new total HD would make the ally immune to the effect in the first place?

    Official answer. There is no such thing as smart spells. Spells only check legality at time of casting, never later. Making someone immune to something won't stop the effects currently going on unless specified otherwise. This is why neutralize poison specifically states that it does not undo the damage a poison has done, but will prevent further damage.

    Edit: And since when does talking about Pathfinder final, a product designed to interface with 3.5 DnD, exclude all the 3.5 books? They are technically part of Pathfinder Final.


    Inspire Greatness isn't a spell.

    Dark Archive

    Pernilla wrote:
    Inspire Greatness isn't a spell.

    But the effects you are asking if they end usually are.


    Dissinger wrote:
    Pernilla wrote:
    Inspire Greatness isn't a spell.
    But the effects you are asking if they end usually are.

    Usually, but perhaps not always. I don't know. That's why I asked.

    Liberty's Edge

    Sorry to be late to the dance folks. I've been spying and stabbing. ;)

    Just to throw in my 2 silver, I like the bard for the Loremaster ability. Once per day you can take 20 on ANY one Knowledge check! This is huge because it gives the party reliable access to hard to find information about pretty much anything. This cuts through a lot of red tape and avoids blundering into situations unprepared, which is a big killer of PC's IMO.

    The buffing/debuffing aspects of the bard are also exceptional. Not only do they eventually require less investment in actions than the cleric or wizard's spells, but they also free the other spellcasting classes up to do stuff they wanna do, like blasting and channeling energy.

    I've been playing a bard under the Beta rules since February, and I find that it's the most versatile and rewarding character I've ever played. He's good in combat (fear my crossbow!), skilled at getting important information (Bardopedia is a good thing), and can spread chaos and disarray into enemy ranks (Grease + floor + zombies = hilarity). He also carries the party's wand of CLW and Cleric in a Box emergency kit so he can act as a back-up healer.

    No single other party member can do all of these things. The fighter's spellcasting abilities are poor at best, the cleric isn't very stealthy, the wizard can't take a punch, and the rogue is a lousy medic.


    Because its fun to nerf the bard :P
    Ok, that sounded like a throll... I'm sorry, I got depressed reading about the bard these days and had to spit it out somehow.


    I've avoided playing bards/ paladins and monks for years, never got the classes. Then I was tossed into a tournament game and had a blast playing the bard. The party loved the buffs and I had fun being the little bit of everything guy. Tumbling through a wall of earth elementals to hit the rogue with healing when she was almost dead, acting as a flank partner for the rogue or the fighters. My character had something to contribute to every single encounter and was appreciated by the group. I'm kind of looking forward to another chance to play one.

    but If you don't like them don't play them. That's why there are 13 base classes.


    Yeah, I got turned onto the Bard class because of Everquest of all things.

    I actually found it fun plying the different buffs for the group, tailoring my choices based on the needs.
    It was also fun in the second Everquest to take advantage of the group speed buff to run people through some of the "time trial" quests for the Journeyman Boots.

    Ahhh memories...
    Sometimes I get nostalgic and think of picking up the game again. Then I remember all the crap that made me want to quit...


    In my experience bards are played in 3 scenarios:

    1. Someone dies and comes back as a female bard with a blowgun as a reactionary measure untill they get a grip and make something they want.

    2. A player rorts the bardic music thru the roof and empowers everyone massively but inevitably unsatisfyingly.

    3. A player is a tactically and strategically superior optimiser and takes the challenge to play to the bards breadth and out class all others who for all reasons under the gods SHOULD be better at any specific thing done. These characters tend to avoid fool prestige classes that make you more 'fighty' or 'casty' etc and with things like craft arms and armour (bards get armour/shields/swords... sun blades = free exotic proficiency), spell pen, craft contingent spell etc out class.

    Such a bard is a wonder: one buff (mirror image or greater invis) with sunblade and shield makes for a match for warriors in hard combats (ac + miss chance + medium damage and escape = better than big damage), spell pen and perfect spell choice makes for a match for casters (like the metamagic rort DC necromancer whos parties bard outclasses him with a simple focus on spell pen. and well timed and positioned glitter dust or eventual irresistable dance, and buffing and well chosen spontaneously needed fixes making the cleric feel like an acolyte and the party consider the bard a more effective disability remover, never mind being able to investigate and hide far better than the rogue using sculpt sound and greater invis. with the HPs, two saves and D.Door to get home safe if things go bad.

    Your no reliant parasite. Its just all mind power to florish.

    Jack of all trades... hard to design past the linear power temptations, harder to constantly be on the ball, but amazingly satisfying when pulled off. Never mind the knowlege, and ability to suggest things to enemies rooms away with loud oratory pre-combat as they await in ambush.

    Boggle wrote:

    To be honest in my group that has been running for other twenty five years

    no one ever plays the bard.

    even thou the new rules give it a bit more it just has never worked as the jack of all trades.

    I think it still is way off in terms of effectiveness and what it can do.

    Can anyone please tell me if you would play one why?

    Liberty's Edge

    insanogeddon wrote:


    3. A player is a tactically and strategically superior optimiser and takes the challenge to play to the bards breadth and out class all others who for all reasons under the gods SHOULD be better at any specific thing done. These characters tend to avoid fool prestige classes that make you more 'fighty' or 'casty' etc and with things like craft arms and armour (bards get armour/shields/swords... sun blades = free exotic proficiency), spell pen, craft contingent spell etc out class.

    Good thought about the sunblade. That's gotta be my next project. :) The rest sounds like my bard...except I'm going Dragon Disciple for character reasons.

    Liberty's Edge

    I particularly play with a huge group of power gamers. Mind you, I have a serious power gamer in me, but, when the GM is throwing monsters up at me that I just keep getting annoyed with. I eventually retire the character and play something much WEAKER. For example, my GM is running a game where there were tough monsters and I kept soloing them with an ORC Titan Mauler Barbarian 6th level he held a Large Lucerne Hamme carrying a 15ft reach with Combat Reflexes. I got bored of the character because I was getting bored and I wanted to play something weaker. So, I build a bard/rogue to help out the party since we didn't have a rogue. Now, everything is running smoothly, my point is: You don't always have to be the big tough tank like the wizard or the barbarian or the monk. You can play a little guy, and still have plenty of fun. And if that character is ever to die, you know that you can't b!++! because you purposly built a gimped character.
    What I would do with the bard however is I would set it up kind of like the sorceror where you can choose your instrument and get different particular powers with it, like Singing would boost your leadership score by your Charisma modifer or somthing to that effect. Otherwise, I think the bard just fine with the way it is.

    Liberty's Edge

    The Barbarian was actually going up Fighter 3 Barbarian 3


    One thing a Bard can do is to be a better thief then the Rogue. Seriously a Bard has the same base combat ability except for sneak attack. He also has better skills with versatile performance and bardic knowledge. throw in a spontaneous caster with illusion and charm spells. The poor rogue may as well give up.

    The Archeologist Archetype makes things even worse. Now I have trap finding equal to a rogue and even have rogue talents. True I do not have sneak attack but I think spells more than make up for that.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    This thread was two and a half years old. Nobody in their right mind questions the bard's right to exist anymore.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Boggle wrote:

    To be honest in my group that has been running for other twenty five years

    no one ever plays the bard.

    even thou the new rules give it a bit more it just has never worked as the jack of all trades.

    I think it still is way off in terms of effectiveness and what it can do.

    Can anyone please tell me if you would play one why?

    Why is it that because someone sees a class they would never play, they think no one should?

    Why is does it also escape the attention of these people that the folks you want to as this "Why this class?" questions are all dead?

    Just because you don't play this class doesn't invalidate it for the thousands who do.


    Boggle wrote:

    if you want to play a buffer character play a cleric that way or a wizard.

    Maybe if people really like this type of character maybe a tactician class should be designed to allow others options personally i think many will not play the bard class.

    Every class has a specialty ... one area that it does really really well, that the other folks in the party are deficient. Except for bards. They don't specialize in combat, magic, thief skills or buffing like clerics. They do all that stuff.

    They're a Swiss army knife. So, in a specific situation, yes, another party member will likely be superior. But, maybe not. You can almost think of a bard as a form of insurance. The party's covered.

    I think the concept of a bard class is pretty interesting, since it's the only generalist in the CRB. However, I don't believe I've ever played in a group with a bard.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

    I don't think the OP is listening anymore, considering his last post was in 2010.

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