Lets say I have hide in plain sight from the shadowdancer PrC. How would I go about the hide checks while in combat.
Do I roll a stealth check at the start of every combat round to see if I can succesfully hide before attacking, so that I can get my sneak attacks in?
Is it just Perception vs. Stealth with no penalties?
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As far as I know, yes. Normally with Hiding, you have to have some sort of cover or concealment to hide at all. Normally, if you hide and attack, you are esentually revealing yourself. It depends on the circumstances. But generally, you are revealed. So to do so again, you have to hide again. If you hide, and don't move next turn, you shouldn't need to hide again.
Stealth is part of a move action. So if you have spring attack you could potentially spring attack while stealthy then restealth as you withdraw. I don't see how you could do it without spring attack. This could also work in obscuring mist or fog cloud also with a normal rogue.
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Stealth is part of a move action. So if you have spring attack you could potentially spring attack while stealthy then restealth as you withdraw. I don't see how you could do it without spring attack. This could also work in obscuring mist or fog cloud also with a normal rogue.
Or use Shot on the Run. Start turn in cover, stealth, move out of cover, shoot, end turn in cover. Rinse and repeat.
Ninja flash-bombs!
Is hide in plain sight gained from the shadowdancer still a supernatural ability (and therefore requires a standard action to activate)? This fact was often overlooked in 3.5.
Stealth is part of a move action. So if you have spring attack you could potentially spring attack while stealthy then restealth as you withdraw. I don't see how you could do it without spring attack. This could also work in obscuring mist or fog cloud also with a normal rogue.Or use Shot on the Run. Start turn in cover, stealth, move out of cover, shoot, end turn in cover. Rinse and repeat.
Yea thats what I was thinking because I'm an archer. Only thing is what can you consistantly use as cover? a 20x20 fog or mist?
Is it worth getting 1 lvl shadowdancer just to be able to hide without cover? or is it better to try and make magic or other cover and use shot on the run?
Is hide in plain sight gained from the shadowdancer still a supernatural ability (and therefore requires a standard action to activate)? This fact was often overlooked in 3.5.
Supernatural Abilities: Using a supernatural ability
is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwiseby the ability’s description).
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth
skill even while being observed
So I dont think its a problem...
Stealth: When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging. ...If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
A shadowdancer can hide even while observed and even with nothing to hide in as long as there is some nearby shadow, but the penalties should still apply.
A -25 penalty to the Stealth check for springing 15 ft. into combat and then 15 ft. back into the shadows is stout, but doable. A 7th-level goblin rogue/wizard/shadowdancer with a cat familiar and cloak of elvenkind could easily have a +27 Stealth check or higher.
Stealth is part of a move action.
The skill description says that it's "part of movement", not "part of a move action". So you should be able to take a 5' step and rehide.
Note that in 3.5, you used to be able to hide while attacking with a -20 penalty, but you can't in Pathfinder.
Stealth: When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging. ...If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
A shadowdancer can hide even while observed and even with nothing to hide in as long as there is some nearby shadow, but the penalties should still apply.
A -25 penalty to the Stealth check for springing 15 ft. into combat and then 15 ft. back into the shadows is stout, but doable. A 7th-level goblin rogue/wizard/shadowdancer with a cat familiar and cloak of elvenkind could easily have a +27 Stealth check or higher.
I'd like to get an official word on this.
So it's almost better to take a full round action to shoot like 4 arrows.
2 normal attacks and 2 more from rapid and manyshot. Then the next round you move and stealth with no penalty.
No wait. this isn't making sense. Am I confused or can i do this while stealthed:
Round1: Attack (applying sneak attack). move out.
Round2: move and stealth. attack. move away.
etc...
This wont make me stealthed for the enemies, but In my round I get stealth long enough to sneak attack them without the -20
No wait. this isn't making sense. Am I confused or can i do this while stealthed:
Round1: Attack (applying sneak attack). move out.
Round2: move and stealth. attack. move away.etc...
My interpretation:
Round 1: Full attack (applying sneak attack), 5' step, make Stealth check.
Round 2: Full attack (applying sneak attack), 5' step, make Stealth check.
Of course, that makes Hide in Plain Sight pretty powerful.
No wait. this isn't making sense. Am I confused or can i do this while stealthed:
Round1: Attack (applying sneak attack). move out.
Round2: move and stealth. attack. move away.etc...
My interpretation:
Round 1: Full attack (applying sneak attack), 5' step, make Stealth check.
Round 2: Full attack (applying sneak attack), 5' step, make Stealth check.Of course, that makes Hide in Plain Sight pretty powerful.
Yea that sounds about right.
Yes, that's why most classes get it only later on. Thing is by the time you get the shadowdancer level there is already improved invis. And it is going to cost me +1BAB which means I will end with +15 and 3 attacks instead of +16 with four.
Still undecided on it...
On a side note: what the hell is with the requirement of having some form of shadow near me, except for me.
Does this mean the weapon I am wielding's shadow counts?
can I just drop a rock with like a tiny shadow?
Does my enemie's shadow count?
On a side note: what the hell is with the requirement of having some form of shadow near me, except for me.
Does this mean the weapon I am wielding's shadow counts?
can I just drop a rock with like a tiny shadow?
Does my enemie's shadow count?
I suggest bringing a portable umbrella and planting it in the ground next to you.
Your weapon is an extension of you so not in my game.
That said, the rule is written in such a way that nearly any other shadow within 10' is fine. Your enemy's, the wizard in your party, etc... All of which seem pretty goofy to me but that's the problem with defining things by exclusion. If my shadow is excluded then every other shadow is included because there are no other guidelines. I would say no to a shadow that is more then 1 size category smaller than the character also but other GMs might be more flexible and it's tough to argue.
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Hide in Plain Sight is the supreme Stealth. That said, it really only changes one or two aspects, depending on what type of Hide in Plain Sight you use.
The Ranger's HiPS from 3.5 merely stated that they could hide even while being observed. Normally, you would need Cover or Concealment to attempt to stealth, and you could not be observed. All the Ranger's ability allows them to do is attempt it while being observed, though they would still need to be within some Cover or Concealment.
The Shadow Dancer has an even better version (in 3.5, I assume the same in PRPG). They could use the Hide (Stealth) skill while being observed, and even hide in the open if within 10 feet of a shadow. This negates the requirement for cover/concealment and still lets her hide while being observed.
As for re-rolling Stealth, this would only need to be done after Stealth was broken (usually after a successful attack).
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
The Ranger's HiPS from 3.5 merely stated that they could hide even while being observed. Normally, you would need Cover or Concealment to attempt to stealth, and you could not be observed. All the Ranger's ability allows them to do is attempt it while being observed, though they would still need to be within some Cover or Concealment.
The exception is that they don't need cover or concealment in "natural terrain" due to the 12th level class ability Camouflage.
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The Ranger's HiPS from 3.5 merely stated that they could hide even while being observed. Normally, you would need Cover or Concealment to attempt to stealth, and you could not be observed. All the Ranger's ability allows them to do is attempt it while being observed, though they would still need to be within some Cover or Concealment.The exception is that they don't need cover or concealment in "natural terrain" due to the 12th level class ability Camouflage.
This lead to an amusing incident in a game, where a ranger under the effects of wind walk wanted to know if he could hide in plain sight while in a clear blue sky. There's not much more natural than the sky, after all! Ah, the 'invisible cloud'. Good times. :D
Hide in Plain Sight basically removes the requirement that you cannot make Stealth checks while being observed.
PF Beta page 38 (Ranger) : "While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed."
Given that this is a 17th level ability, and that the class in question garners nothing as formidable as sneak attack (especially at 17th level), this is not so bad. However ...
(PF Beta Prestige Classes Web supplement, page 16): "Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."
This is considerably different even though it shares the same name with the ranger class feature. The primary methods a shadowdancer has to provide a shadow at all times are (a) illumination conditions (dim illumination), (b) darkness (but not deeper darkness) spells or spell-like abilities, (c) the shadowdancer's own class abilities, including - presumably - the very shadow(s) they can summon later. The other element of "huh?" with this ability is "... within 10 feet of some sort of shadow..." This element of the ability leads me to believe that it could be renamed "Hide in Shadow", as it would be more accurate. Its mechanical execution is perhaps not, however, pending PRPG being released to answer all these burning questions for us. :)
For the sake of simplicity, the primary consideration could turn out to be illumination-based. In flickering torchlight, cloudy moonlight or in the dim light shed by certain phosphorescent non-photosynthetic plants (among many other sources of dim lighting) the class ability is likely to be accessible at a whim. In full sunlight, the brilliant illumination of certain spells or even just within the 'bright light' condition of various normal light sources there are no shadows.
The problem I can see with the PF Beta shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight class feature is adjudication of how shadows fall in relation to the various light sources, one which can create more problems than it is arguably worth in play.
One way to rule it is this: in any sort of illumination, shadows are going to be cast unless a particular creature casts no shadow (such as incorporeal creatures and unfortunate souls that have been cursed not to cast one). One has to determine where all active light sources are (the sun/moon overhead, for example, will require a designation on the map you are using similar to the way many maps now have a compass indicating north or some other direction - in most cases, this is pretty easy as one roughly gauges the time of game day based on the character's actions and marks east or west accordingly). Carried light sources already have this mechanism 'built in'.
The beastly part is "how far does something shed a shadow?". A possible game-solution is that a given creature or object (with a single creature's gear not counting for purposes of producing a shadow) produces a shadow equal to its reach. If the light is overhead (or on its head) the shadow matches half of its reach. If the light is from another source, the brightest source is used and roughly a third of the creature's reach pattern is its shadow in relation to the brightest light source. Most of the time even something like a sunrod secured over a character's shoulder results in a more normal shadow being cast, typically off-set to the opposite shoulder and down. A hooded lantern with all its shutters opened (illuminating its entire radius) will tend to cast shadows based on how it is carried - casting more upwards when the lantern is held low - rather typical except when in 'search mode' - and more even or downwards when searching a chamber or holding the lantern high to get a close look at faded engravings.
YMMV of course.
Furthermore we have to, I guess, assume there is only one sun and that it is of a certain brightness and moves accross the east-west line.
Or does the east-west line automatically "snap-to" the sun's path?
So much maintenance for a one level dip lol!
Also, it can be argued that it would be impossible or harder to use this skill in a dimly lit area. Think about it. It requires a shadow, not darkness. So if taken literally it would be easier to hide in a very bright day, because there would be more shadows. And they would be very contrasting.
Whereas in a very dimly lit environment, who is to say that ANY shadows are cast. The darker it gets the harder it is to tell if there are shadows.
Lets say there are two characters with darkvision standing face to face in the dark. No shadows, just darkness. Does this mean I can't hide in plain sight?
Furthermore we have to, I guess, assume there is only one sun and that it is of a certain brightness and moves accross the east-west line.
Or does the east-west line automatically "snap-to" the sun's path?
So much maintenance for a one level dip lol!
Also, it can be argued that it would be impossible or harder to use this skill in a dimly lit area. Think about it. It requires a shadow, not darkness. So if taken literally it would be easier to hide in a very bright day, because there would be more shadows. And they would be very contrasting.
Whereas in a very dimly lit environment, who is to say that ANY shadows are cast. The darker it gets the harder it is to tell if there are shadows.
Lets say there are two characters with darkvision standing face to face in the dark. No shadows, just darkness. Does this mean I can't hide in plain sight?
Here're the top two definitions of SHADOW from the American Heritage Dictionary:
An area that is not or is only partially irradiated or illuminated because of the interception of radiation by an opaque object between the area and the source of radiation;or
The rough image cast by an object blocking rays of illumination.
So going by the first definition, if you're (for instance) in a subterranean cavern, then you're standing in the shadows caused by the earth blocking the light from the sun. Granted, they're really dark shadows without any break, but they're still shadows. Same thing if you're standing topside at night without a lantern: You're technically standing in the shadow of the earth (proven by lunar eclipses and, y'know, the pervasive darkness).
Since the ability is supernatural, I can live with HiPS thwarting darkvision. I actually have more problems with the fact that I could be standing right in the middle of a floodlight's blindingly illuminated area, but if the circle of light is ten feet or less in radius, I can still hide due to the shadows at the edge of the light (unless I've got low-light vision, which means I don't see any shadows for twenty feet, meaning elven shadowdancers get shafted?). Or I could walk down the middle of a merchant-booth-lined street at high noon, but so long as I keep within 10' of the booths, horses, wagons, people, or whatever, I can remain hidden in the shadows and yet still work on my tan in the direct sunlight. Or what about walking around outside on an overcast day--I'm standing in the shadows of the clouds, right? Or if I'm inside during the day with the lights off but the windows open, it's not as bright as it is outside, so I must be in the shadow of the walls/ceiling. In fact, I almost can't think of any situations in which I couldn't HiPS.
I love the Hide in Plain Sight ability (and make frequent use of it in my current game, thank you Dark template...), but I really do think it needs to be a little more clearly defined to avoid abuse by munchkins like myself :) I think this class should be tied to ambient light levels rather than undefined "shadows", since it feels like that's more what the flavor was aiming for (although that raises the problem of low-light vision--and superior low-light vision!--but whatever.) The warlock has a greater invocation that grants total concealment in any area that isn't brightly lit, as I recall, which I believe is closer to what this ability was meant to duplicate. I'll have to wait and see what Pathfinder's revised rules on light levels look like (lotta 'lliteration, lol) before I try to rework this.
For the sake of simplicity, the primary consideration could turn out to be illumination-based. In flickering torchlight, cloudy moonlight or in the dim light shed by certain phosphorescent non-photosynthetic plants (among many other sources of dim lighting) the class ability is likely to be accessible at a whim. In full sunlight, the brilliant illumination of certain spells or even just within the 'bright light' condition of various normal light sources there are...
This is basically the approach I think the ability should take. Much simpler and seems less prone to argument about what is and is not a shadow.
The only problem I still have is that I don't know how to handle the issue of low-light vision--if I'm standing at the edge of the circle of light cast by a torch, can I hide from the human but not the elf? But then, if that's the case, can I HiPS within 60' of a dwarf at all? And if I'm a gnome, how do I know where the radius of light ends for the human--my own vision makes it seem like the light is brighter.
Aargh, stupid differences in light-sensitivity!
The only problem I still have is that I don't know how to handle the issue of low-light vision--if I'm standing at the edge of the circle of light cast by a torch, can I hide from the human but not the elf? But then, if that's the case, can I HiPS within 60' of a dwarf at all? And if I'm a gnome, how do I know where the radius of light ends for the human--my own vision makes it seem like the light is brighter.Aargh, stupid differences in light-sensitivity!
The way I run my games, these answers are yes and no, respectively. You could hide from the human closer than you could from the low-light vision elf. You could not simply use a source of darkness to hide from a dwarf within the range of his darkvision because the darkness can no longer conceal. You need some other form of concealment or cover in those circumstances.
SWSE, I think, takes a fairly sensible approach to the visions. They ignore concealment or total concealment depending on the level of vision. While SWSE Sneak (combined Hide and Move Silently) no longer strictly requires concealment or cover (it offers a bonus if good sources of hiding places are to be found instead), defining it that way neatly handles the issue for 3e too. If the concealment afforded by shadows or darkness is ignored, no Hide check is possible.
I know this is an older thread so I am not sure if the original poster is still interested or if all of their questions were answered but there is another thread HERE that goes into pretty deep debate and detail about HiPS.
A shadowdancer can hide even while observed and even with nothing to hide in as long as there is some nearby shadow, but the penalties should still apply.
A -25 penalty to the Stealth check for springing 15 ft. into combat and then 15 ft. back into the shadows is stout, but doable. A 7th-level goblin rogue/wizard/shadowdancer with a cat familiar and cloak of elvenkind could easily have a +27 Stealth check or higher.
NO, using HiPS to Stealth while being observed is not equal to sniping. They are two totally different and incompatible uses of Stealth. This is also discussed in the link I provided.