WARNING: If you're not interested in fluff text, skip to THE QUESTION below.
I've been teaching English to Koreans in South Korea (that's the nice one) for three weeks now, and there's nothing like trying to explain your native tongue to a bunch of foreigners to make you realize how absurd it is. For example, Koreans don't use the F sound. It's just not part of their dialogue, so when they try to pronounce it it often comes out as the P sound. Another oddity of the Korean language is that the vast majority of words end in vowel sounds, so when a Korean reads an English word that ends in a consonant, or that ends in a silent E, they have a subconsious impulse to pronounce a vowel sound at the word's end. So when a Korean reads the word 'phone' and pronounces it 'pony', I really can't blame them. It's a perfectly logical mistake.
Words like 'phone' have always been a pet peeve of mine. Some people think that useless confusion adds 'character' to a language, but I think it's just a pain in the @ss for kids and foreigners. So I'd like to change how the English language is written, at least in the USA. Yes, I admit it, my goal is total domination of written English complete with maniacal laughter and mustouche twirling. There are plenty of scholars who know how to make written English simple and intuitive, but they have no power because there is no central language authority. And there's no language authority because there's no money directly tied to simple and intuitive language.
THE QUESTION:
Imagine that, like me, you wanted to attain total domination of the written English language in order to dumb it down for all those under-achieving kids and lazy foreigners. How would you create a financially and politically empowered language authority to attain such domination?
In order to make a language a dominant one, you mek it to where everyone has to learn your language to just keep up. Tha then enables your people to get ahead and keep ahead. after all, if everyone is learning your language, they will have less to to take the dominace from you.
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A long time ago it was Latin. The Romans were the dominate politico-military and financial force second only to China. Rome expanded and never really stopped; China's emperor went crazy and ordered the navy burned, and the country never went where they could have. Thanks to the Brits, who carried on the Roman spirit, and later the US after WWII and our technical-financial dominance, it's English that runs the world. English has no central authority, but by virtue of technology and gold, English dominates.
English isn't going away. It's the third most widely-spoken language in the world (and very close to being second--Chinese-Spanish-English). Thanks to the Internet and science, that's not going to change any time soon.
txtng lrdy dng tht. mite hav2 ctch up!
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A Linguistics professor of mine back in the day felt the same way about spelling vs. pronunciation. She was a big proponent of switching all languages to phonetic spelling to help alleviate some of the issues of learning a foreign language.
To answer the question, there would have to be a good financial reason to switch to a language authority. Forcing the stock markets to switch might be a good start but you would probably have better luck if you started with Hollywood and the media.
English is a bastardization of just about every, other known language. That is why it breaks so many of its own rules. I agree that it is a pain, but I suspect that is part of the price you pay for having a 'living' language.
I only know a little bit of Spanish, so I am not familiar enough with other languages to make an estimate. But how many other languages can you make up words on the fly and your audience will know exactly what you are saying?
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No. I spent my entire life gaining proficiency in this damned language, and there is NO WAY IN HELL I want it dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. The rest of everything around me is already working on an idiot level, leave me my esoteric, confusing and wonderfully expressive language alone.
Idiocracy isn't a movie, it's prophecy...
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English is a bastardization of just about every, other known language.
No it's not. Not even close.
English is a superior language -- in so much as it adapts more easily and grows more easily than other languages (those with only one parent language instead of two).
Being far larger than (as far as I know) other languages (precisely because it grows so easily) also makes it better. Moreover, it's not a pidgin the way other "two-parent" languages are. Just because it's harder to learn than most languages doesn't make it weak -- indeed, it's a side effect of being such an adaptable language.
By the way, Icelandic is considered the hardest language to learn.
-W. E. Ray
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I'm not sure if I understand the question. Are you asking about language standardization, language simplification, or language diffusion?
I'm not sure either; I think it might have to do with the fact that you could somewhat snarkily and just to be cute spell fish "ghot" by using the "gh" from laugh, the "o" from women, and the "t" from motion.
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I'm not sure if I understand the question. Are you asking about language standardization, language simplification, or language diffusion?I'm not sure either; I think it might have to do with the fact that you could somewhat snarkily and just to be cute spell fish "ghot" by using the "gh" from laugh, the "o" from women, and the "t" from motion.
"ghoti", and yeah, linguistic acrobatics doesn't invalidate a language.
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A long time ago it was Latin. The Romans were the dominate politico-military and financial force....
<pointless pedantry>
My understanding is that the main language of the Eastern half of the Roman empire was Koine Greek, not Latin (which is why the New Testament was mainly written in Koine, and why Greek became the primary language of the Byzantine empire). At the time, the Romans held Greek culture in high esteem, and so even though Latin was the government language the vast majority of educated Romans, even in the Western half of the empire, spoke Greek.
</pointless pedantry>
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I'm not sure if I understand the question. Are you asking about language standardization, language simplification, or language diffusion?I'm not sure either; I think it might have to do with the fact that you could somewhat snarkily and just to be cute spell fish "ghot" by using the "gh" from laugh, the "o" from women, and the "t" from motion."ghoti", and yeah, linguistic acrobatics doesn't invalidate a language.
Yeah, but it can evolve. I don't see those big ass goofy esses that look like f's any more.
No it's not. Not even close.
Mea culpa. How could I make such a faux pas? It should be verboten for me to speak on such things.
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A long time ago it was Latin. The Romans were the dominate politico-military and financial force....<pointless pedantry>
My understanding is that the main language of the Eastern half of the Roman empire was Koine Greek, not Latin (which is why the New Testament was mainly written in Koine, and why Greek became the primary language of the Byzantine empire). At the time, the Romans held Greek culture in high esteem, and so even though Latin was the government language the vast majority of educated Romans, even in the Western half of the empire, spoke Greek.
</pointless pedantry>
You're right for the East; and when the West fell, Latin died. You know, officially, the capitol was last moved to the East before the coup of 196, and the line of the HRE was never interrupted, so some argue that Rome didn't fall until 1806...
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*breathes in deeply*
Spoken english is quite easy. It's my second language, and I have to admit you -english native speakers- already have a lot of things that aren't complicated. Irregular verbs notwithstanding, conjugations are almost nonexistant, words have no gender and are usually short.
By the time you take engish to a more advanced level (the small details, saying "If I were" instead of "If I was"), you shouldn't have to worry about it, those aren't really problematic structures.
The real problem lies around the time that France dominated England. Spelling became quite different, and words that would seem almost the same in pronunciation rules would be different ('flood' and 'moon', the double o). Certain letters were given values that had no logic, for example, the last "e"s that aren't pronounced, sore, lithe, mare. The CH became a pain in the lass. Chimpanzee, chemistry and Chicago have CH but pronounced differently.
Last but not least, the common almost-homophones. They're, there, their; you're, your, also too, to, two, to mention a few examples. While spoken, the tone gives context, when written there is a world between the meaning of "your nuts" and "you're nuts". And every now and then, comes a word that has no rule and is pronounced like that because... just because. "Laugh", "Spokane", "Chaos". The apostrophe is a public enemy to those learning to spell in your language.
Spoken english is fine the way it is, it serves as a bridge between people from different countries, except in really a few cases, I once communicated with a french guy in japanese because he didn't know enough english and I don't speak more than a few words of french. But that has been the only time, the rest of my experiences with foreigners, english is the standard language.
Take it as the trading language. Or "common". We do that every now and then, in our table, we take English as common and Spanish as the main language of the area (Chondathan and whatnot) when playing Forgotten Realms.
Chinese is widely spoken, but chinese-speaking people are concentrated in a relatively small areas of the world (China is a big country, but outside China, mostly chinese and chinese-descended people speak it, whereas I'm not english nor american, yet I speak your language like many others do). Spanish is more of a widespread language, but it's more complicated to learn.
Besides, if I take the effort to learn other languages, and I believe that languages are incredibly beautiful, I think anyone trying to learn a new idiom should at least try hard. Languages tell you about the culture and make yor brain find new concepts in smaller terms for a meaning you maybe didn't have in your own language (take as an example the word portmanteau); I think the effort is worth it. If I were to move to, say, South Korea, I'd do my best to learn the language as well as I can, even if I don't speak a word right now.
Not to mention, even though this may seem superfluous... foreign accents are usually sexy.
*end rant*
*pant pant*
The language is what the language is. Learn it to work in our society, learn it to THRIVE in our society.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'm not sure if I understand the question. Are you asking about language standardization, language simplification, or language diffusion?
Okay, I'm going to assume you mean that you are wondering how one would go about creating a simplified version of English for international communication. First, I would read the literature on 'World Englishes' to see the extent to which this is already evolving naturally. Second, I would decide if I felt comfortable advocating for 'World English' or if I believed in supporting American or British 'standard Englishes'. Third, if I felt comfortable advocating for 'World Englishes' but felt that they weren't emerging quickly enough, I would look at attempts at the artificial promotion of languages for international communication and learn from their failures. Then, I would seek government funds.
That's what I'd do, if I understand your question correctly.
BTW, Tequila, I spent 8 years teaching English in Korea. If you want to chat sometime, let me know. Andrew Turner's lived in Korea as well. Kruelaid teaches ESL in China. There are others on this board, I think, who have similar interests. :-D
[threadjack]
Pointless pedantry?!
The Roman Empire finally fell in 1453. And for the last period, yes, its language was Greek.
Takes the excellent stylist but poor historian Gibbon into a back room and slaps him around.
something something try to learn another language something
I always liked that in Spanish the noun goes first and then the adjectives. Made more sense to me. Go from general to specific. Get to the main point first.
No it's not. Not even close.Mea culpa. How could I make such a faux pas? It should be verboten for me to speak on such things.
Nice.
So...Molech and Jeremy will head the committee that will finalize the list of things CourtFool is not permitted to speak about?
Tequila, greetings from the Subway Sword and Sorcery crew. We miss you terribly. I hope to hear from you again soon.
Topic? What topic?
Okay, I'm going to assume you mean that you are wondering how one would go about creating a simplified version of English for international communication.
Almost. What I'm asking is how to empower an English language authority that can make decisions like "from now on, 'phone' is spelled 'fone' in the USA." Because if the USA changes the way it writes English, then most everyone who learns ESL will learn the USA way. Barring international calamity of course.
There are plenty of English linguists who know how to simplify the language, even if I couldn't, so that's not a problem. And English is already the world's common tongue, so that's not a problem either. The problem is creating an organization with the authority to change how English is written.
Hey Freehold, whaaazuuup?! How's the PF game going? I'd email you but your address got lost in transition.
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I get it now. Does anyone know the Noah Webster story? I know the divergence between UK and US spelling and grammar is due in large part to him, but not everything he wanted to do, like thought to thot and tongue to tung, caught on. Congress had something to do with US English changes, as well, by adopting Webster's revised dictionary and grammar in 1795. I suppose, if the ball got rolling in government to make spelling and usage changes, it would migrate into the schools, and eventually phone would turn into fon.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Yeah, I was thinking about Webster too. His ideas make a lot of sense and I'd be all for spelling reform but it is unlikely to ever happen even though it would be easier to achieve now than ever before. With so much information being made available electronically, access to a reformed spelling could be as simple as a "translate this page" button on your web browser. It wouldn't require the entire English speaking world to sign on but many people could read their webpages in a truly 'transparent' (one letter, one sound) alphabet.
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Yep, and I would love to see the Shakespeare translations:
"Alas, poor Yorick! I new him, Horatio: a fello
of infinite jest, of most ekselent fansee: he hath
born me on hiz back a thowzand timez; and naow, how
abhoard in my emajinashun it is! my gowrje rims at
it. Hear hung thoz lipz that I have kissed I no
naut haow oft. Wear be yor gaibes naow? yor
gambuls? your sawngs? your flashez of mereement,
that wer want to set the taybel on a ror? Not won
naow, to mock yor oun grining? quite chap-falen?
Naow get u to my ladeez chaymber, and tel hir, let
hir paynt an inch thik, to this faver she must
com; make hir laf at that."
No thanks...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Yep, and I would love to see the Shakespeare translations:
"Alas, poor Yorick! I new him, Horatio: a fello
of infinite jest, of most ekselent fansee: he hath
born me on hiz back a thowzand timez; and naow, how
abhoard in my emajinashun it is! my gowrje rims at
it. Hear hung thoz lipz that I have kissed I no
naut haow oft. Wear be yor gaibes naow? yor
gambuls? your sawngs? your flashez of mereement,
that wer want to set the taybel on a ror? Not won
naow, to mock yor oun grining? quite chap-falen?
Naow get u to my ladeez chaymber, and tel hir, let
hir paynt an inch thik, to this faver she must
com; make hir laf at that."No thanks...
"Alas, poor Yorik! I new him, Horraysheeo: a felo
of infinit jest, ov most ekselent fansee: he hathborn me on hiz bak a thauzand taimz; aend nau, hau
abhoard in mai emajinashun it is! my gowrje rims at
it. Hear hung thoz lipz that I hav kist I no
naut hau awft. Wer be yor jaibs nau? yor
gambuls? yor sawngs? yor flashez ov mereement,
that wer want to set the taybel on a ror? Not won
naow, to mock yor auwn grining? kwait chap-falen?
Naow get u to my ladeez chaymber, and tel hir, let
hir paynt an inch thik, to this faver she must
com; make hir laf at that."
I did a little more work on it. Hey, I know, someone who has already learnt to read English would find this confusing, which is why spelling reform is a sticky, sticky business.
I'd guess that most major attempts at language reform have poor results as they involve changing people's behaviour from above.
EDIT: Another reason spelling reform of English is unlikely is because it is spoken with different accents. Trying to make English a one-letter, one-sound orthography means changing not only how people write, but how they speak.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Yeah, my point. English is my native tongue, why the f##* should I have to relearn my native f##*ing tongue?
Sorry for the profanity, but this is rubbing me the wrong way in a BIG way...
It's for that reason that a lot of 'world Englishes' stuff is more subtle than wholesale spelling reform. The 'international standard' they propose (as opposed to an American, British, Canadian, Australian, Indian, Jamaican, Nigerian, etc standard) is a bit different but in ways that wouldn't piss you off much.
If I remember correctly, one difference would be that "you'd better not" means the same as "you shouldn't" not "you must not". Why? Because that is how many people use it internationally.
Spelling changes are hard to sell.
On the other hand,
my son taught himself to read Korean first (at age 3) because he said that English spelling seemed silly. He was still complaining about the spelling of 'circus' when he was 5. Korea has one of the highest literacy rates in the world in part because they have one of the coolest alphabets.
English is a bastardization of just about every, other known language.
Really, just 3. The original Saxon languages were largely unified by the time of the dominance of Wessex in the 900s. Around the same time, English inflections (yes, Virginia, we were at one point an inflected languge) were shaved off to more easiy communicate with the Scandinavians occupying the north and east of England (the "Danelaw"), and the two languages, already similar enough, begand to meld together. Then, in 1066, the Normans invaded, and over the next century or two, English picked up Norman French. They're the three major sources of English as we know it, though loanwords from a myraid of languages have also been adopted.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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English is a bastardization of just about every, other known language.Really, just 3. The original Saxon languages were largely unified by the time of the dominance of Wessex in the 900s. Around the same time, English inflections (yes, Virginia, we were at one point an inflected languge) were shaved off to more easiy communicate with the Scandinavians occupying the north and east of England (the "Danelaw"), and the two languages, already similar enough, begand to meld together. Then, in 1066, the Normans invaded, and over the next century or two, English picked up Norman French. They're the three major sources of English as we know it, though loanwords from a myraid of languages have also been adopted.
Latin didn't figure in?
McWhorter.
English is a bastardization of just about every, other known language.
"English does not 'borrow' from other languages; English follows other languages down a dark alley, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets looking for loose grammar."
-- Quoted from a t-shirt I saw (at GenCon SoCal, no less) that to this day I regret not buying...
"English does not 'borrow' from other languages; English follows other languages down a dark alley, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets looking for loose grammar."
-- Quoted from a t-shirt I saw (at GenCon SoCal, no less) that to this day I regret not buying...
I love that T-shirt. I bought one for a friend of mine.
Yeah, my point. English is my native tongue, why the f%!& should I have to relearn my native f%!&ing tongue?
Sorry for the profanity, but this is rubbing me the wrong way in a BIG way...
If you'd like to start another thread, I'd be glad to spend a few minutes ranting about how the 'if I had to learn a bunch of BS then everyone else should too' attitude rubs ME the wrong way. But I'd like to keep this thread civil.
The only way I can think of to attain domination of written English is by coming up with a lot of statistics to prove that the US loses a lot of money due to language complexity. Other than that...sole posession of the antidote to a lethal and otherwise incurable disease, maybe.
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Latin didn't figure in?
Really, just 3....the Normans invaded, and over the next century or two, English picked up Norman French. They're the three major sources of English as we know it, though loanwords from a myraid of languages have also been adopted.
That came via Norman French. Which makes this a good time to bring up a quote from H. Beam Piper:
"English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate than any of the other results."
Yeah, my point. English is my native tongue, why the f%!& should I have to relearn my native f%!&ing tongue?
Sorry for the profanity, but this is rubbing me the wrong way in a BIG way...
If you'd like to start another thread, I'd be glad to spend a few minutes ranting about how the 'if I had to learn a bunch of BS then everyone else should too' attitude rubs ME the wrong way. But I'd like to keep this thread civil.
The only way I can think of to attain domination of written English is by coming up with a lot of statistics to prove that the US loses a lot of money due to language complexity. Other than that...sole posession of the antidote to a lethal and otherwise incurable disease, maybe.
I live in Brooklyn. Although I am a native, I have a midwestern flat(as described by my first girlfriend who is from Tennessee) I picked up in Sacramento, CA and Northampton, PA during my formative years. It usually takes people by surprise at first listen which is something I relish. Living in Brooklyn means that at any day and at any time, I am bombarded by English served a thousand different ways- accented(mild), accented(heavy) and sprinkled with bits of other languages(in mild, heavy, and using-English-curses-only varieties; that last bit was especially hilarious a Chinese man got pissed off at someone on the street, screamed at them in Cantonese then, upon realizing the person had no idea what he was saying, apologized in the heavily accented variety of English and said "I MEAN TO F%*$ YOU!!!" before storming off). I relearn English a little more every day. I suspect by your handle that I'd have to relearn it a bit when I talk to you too, Derek. English grows by fits and starts every time I hear it- or maybe it is indeed just a very successful and brutish thief.
Latin also directed influenced English as the language of ecclesiastics and the universities.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Latin also directed influenced English as the language of ecclesiastics and the universities.
"Latin has been a major influence on English throughout its history, and there is evidence of its role from the earliest moments of contact" (Crystal, 1995, p. 8). Crystal mentions the Roman army, the church, and merchants introduced Latin. Evidence supports Latin being used for communication between tribes, legal institutions, and religious institutions.
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I suspect by your handle that I'd have to relearn it a bit when I talk to you too, Derek. English grows by fits and starts every time I hear it- or maybe it is indeed just a very successful and brutish thief.
I love the English language. It is complex, expressive, difficult to master, and amazing in the number of accents it will accommodate. My problem is, I see TS's suggestion as just another "lowest common denominator" ploy. We cater enough to the LCD as it is, I'd hate to see the language Browning, Thoreau and Twain used so well, and so differently, turned into garbage.
Oh, and I grew up in upstate New York, so you'd find my accent quite neutral as I only seem to speak with a Texas accent when I'm out amongst the real Texans.
A friend and I invented a simplified, logical English variant in college: spelling was 100% phoenetic, letter by letter (all caps), with accent marks to indicate long vowels and two separate symbols for "TH" depending on the sound (the letters "C" and "Q" were eliminated); all homonyms were eliminated; all plurals and possessives were standardized; all adverbs ended in "-ly"; all verbs were regular; etc. One day he wrote to me:
I BE- SIK UV @IS. IT BE- UNFUN WRI-T @IS WA-. WUT XINK YU-?
I replied, "I AGRE-," and that was the end of it.
Like Derek, every time I pick up a Jack Vance novel (for example), I fall in love with English again for its rich, paradoxical, and downright mysterious panopoly of verbiage.
French is perfect for gossip; it's so well suited to sly innuendo. German is precise and logical; an ideal language for discussing science and engineering. But English might just be the best langauge for novels.
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I thought that was Navajo.
By the way, Icelandic is considered the hardest language to learn.
-W. E. Ray
Actually, it's Qwghlmian.
By the way, Icelandic is considered the hardest language to learn.I thought that was Navajo.
Hardest to learn and hardest to master are two different things, though. The U.S. Army has a scale for difficulty of languages to master; English is the only real-world langauge that rates a "5" out of 5.
OP: Here's the thing...languages aren't designed, they evolve. No individual or organization controls spelling, or inclusion/exclusion of words, etc. So influencing those factors can be horribly difficult, with not guarantee of success. I don't see how to empower an organization with that authority, because no one *has* that authority to begin with.
BTW there is a great book on the evolution of English called "The Mother Tongue." It sounds like you might enjoy picking it up...
Ooo...I'm suppressing snarky statements in response to Kirth....ouch!