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Quote: Jason Bulmahn
"Skills: Concentration is gone and its role got shifted to Spellcraft, which has been pointed out as unfair to some classes that do not invest in a high Int. One compromise that is being considered is shifting the entire raft of uses over to a Will save, removing it from the skill system entirely. Thoughts?"
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Jason,
Why not go ahead and remove “casting defensively” from the skill system entirely, but as an ability check instead of a saving throw?
If a caster is being threatened and wants to cast a spell without dropping his guard and provoking an attack of opportunity, he would need to make a successful ability check using whichever ability is tied to that character’s spellcasting. A wizard would use his Intelligence. A paladin would use her charisma. Etc.
As originally written, the DC to cast defensively ranges from 10 to 19 (10+spell level). Assuming a caster had the bare minimum ability score required to cast a particular spell, he would have to roll anywhere from a 10 (for an apprentice with a 10 Intelligence casting a cantrip) to a 15 (for a high priest with a 19 Wisdom trying to invoke a Miracle) on a single d20 to successfully maintain the proper mental (or spiritual) focus to dodge and weave and still cast his spell.
Even in the above example, the marginally talented apprentice has a 50/50 shot to handle the pressure well enough to daze the threatening goblin, while the high priest has a challenging but not impossible roll to make. Both characters are using the most powerful spell in their repertoire under rather intense pressure to perform.
Higher level characters still have an advantage over lower level characters, as higher level characters have more of an opportunity to permanently or temporarily raise the necessary ability score (and plenty of other incentive to do so). Non-major spellcasters such as Paladins and Rangers are less likely to raise their spellcasting attribute, but they also cap out at 4th level spells (DC 14) so casting even their most powerful spells defensively in combat should stay fairly easy for them.
Characters are encouraged to cast their spells in situations where they are not directly threatened, but if the difficulties never rise so high as to become impossible if they are. This would also give the Combat Casting feat a little more mileage.
Thoughts?
-Jason
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Quote: Jason Bulmahn
"Skills: Concentration is gone and its role got shifted to Spellcraft, which has been pointed out as unfair to some classes that do not invest in a high Int. One compromise that is being considered is shifting the entire raft of uses over to a Will save, removing it from the skill system entirely. Thoughts?"
Put me solidly in the camp that thinks that Concentration needs to return in its previous 3.5 form. Concentration has a bevy of uses (not just casting spells on the defensive), and was the only skill that used Constitution (an ability that all casters need somewhat equally).
If you make it a Will save, now you have shifted the unfairness to spellcasting classes that use Wisdom as the prime casting stat.
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Put me solidly in the camp that thinks that Concentration needs to return in its previous 3.5 form. Concentration has a bevy of uses (not just casting spells on the defensive), and was the only skill that used Constitution (an ability that all casters need somewhat equally).If you make it a Will save, now you have shifted the unfairness to spellcasting classes that use Wisdom as the prime casting stat.
...but what do you think about defensive casting being an ability check?
I play casters alot, and I think that there still needs to be a skill check for Concentration. Lets face it, the ability to cast while someone is trying to kill you definitely takes some skill.
However, I would have to agree with some of you that the ability modifier in the skill check has to change. I think the ability modifier should be what the class uses as their respective modifier (wizards/int, clerics/wis, paladins/wis, etc).
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I play casters alot, and I think that there still needs to be a skill check for Concentration. Lets face it, the ability to cast while someone is trying to kill you definitely takes some skill.
However, I would have to agree with some of you that the ability modifier in the skill check has to change. I think the ability modifier should be what the class uses as their respective modifier (wizards/int, clerics/wis, paladins/wis, etc).
If I remember correctly, three of the much-discussed issues with defensive casting being a skill check are that it gets too easy too quickly, that it constitutes a "skill tax" and that no one can agree which skill should cover it.
That is why I started this thread. I believe that making it an ability check deals nicely with those issues. The difficulty stays reasonably challenging because the modifier doesn't raise at the same rate as a skill. Also, raising an ability score is totally different than raising a skill so this doesn't constitute a "tax".
Pathfinder Beta tried to address the fact that the DCs get easy too quickly by upping the difficulty of the action, but I think there is a better way. The DCs were fairly low to begin with, so why not use a check with a fairly low, slow-growing modifier? Raising the difficulty only encourages characters to max out the skill in order to stay competitive.
I like this idea the only problem I see is what happens when you are hit while casting? normaly is a skill check DC15+damage, if you change it to an ability check what would be the DC? I also think that it should be one stat regardless if you are a divine or arcane caster, or a caster at all, beacause spell casting is not the only use for concentration, granted, is the more used one but it can come up in other situations.
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I like this idea the only problem I see is what happens when you are hit while casting? normaly is a skill check DC15+damage, if you change it to an ability check what would be the DC? I also think that it should be one stat regardless if you are a divine or arcane caster, or a caster at all, beacause spell casting is not the only use for concentration, granted, is the more used one but it can come up in other situations.
In order to keep it consistent, you'd have to alter some DCs.
If you take damage in the middle of casting a spell, I would probably set the DC at either:
damage dealt + spell level
OR
5 + damage dealt + spell level
I'm arguing with myself over which is better, but leaning somewhat toward the first. Straight damage + spell level. Nice and simple.
Thoughts?
I think damage dealt is a DC to high for an ability check, if the problem with concentration checks is that after some skill points invested is allways a succes, having the DC damage dealt would be imposible for an ability check after some levels and it should be difficult but not imposible.
Im thinking something like the same DC+5 or something like that.
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I think damage dealt is a DC to high for an ability check, if the problem with concentration checks is that after some skill points invested is allways a succes, having the DC damage dealt would be imposible for an ability check after some levels and it should be difficult but not imposible.
Im thinking something like the same DC+5 or something like that.
True. Personally, I don't see a problem with that. A wizard could shrug off small hits but not big ones. You'd have to take quite a bit of damage from a single hit before it became impossible, and the whole issue can be avoided by not casting a spell while threatened or by casting defensively.
How about this!!! If you get hit in combat, make it a coin toss!! Make it 50/50 regardless of damage that has been dealt. What do u think of that?
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How about this!!! If you get hit in combat, make it a coin toss!! Make it 50/50 regardless of damage that has been dealt. What do u think of that?
That could work too. Nice and simple and it stays a concern even at higher levels.
The downside is that there is no difference between an apprentice and an archmage with that method, and it does not take into consideration the spell level.
Still, a coin toss would be quick and easy. That is always good when running combat.
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my take on spellcraft is... inteligent bassed spellcaster use INT for spellcraft, Wisdom based classes uses WIS, and Charisma bassed spellcasters use CHA.
when identifying spells from their are they roll spellcraft nromally, but meeting with a different paradigm i would give a penalty going from -5 to 10 depending how different and complicated (level) of such magic
i explain why in another tread, but Spellcraft is used during an spell to control the mystycal forces... a wizard does this by analizing, understanding and knowing the spell, every incantation, and understanding what does each component for it... this is infact an INTELIGENCE ROLL
but neither a cleric or a sorcerer see magic like this
Cleric and Druids have an intimate relation to something greater than themselves, a god(dess) or Nature itself, its this link that they need to understand, not arcane words, but the will to merge with something greater than themselves and do it right, this is about WISDOM
Sorcerer & Bards, have no arcane understanding about the universe, not merge with a being greater than themselves... its all about them, and whatever trick they learn or power they have inherited. They take this raw power and forge it inside themselves with their will and powerful personality... is all about CHARISMA..
I know most people would not agree but i will begin using it like this in my games. have fun :D
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my take on spellcraft is... inteligent bassed spellcaster use INT for spellcraft, Wisdom based classes uses WIS, and Charisma bassed spellcasters use CHA.
...
I know most people would not agree but i will begin using it like this in my games. have fun :D
Oh, I certainly agree that if you use Spellcraft you should add the appropriate ability to the score. I also agree with your reasoning. I just wanted to float a different way of going about some of what is currently covered by spellcraft.
Do you see any problems with making it an ability check that I may have missed?
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Do you see any problems with making it an ability check that I may have missed?
i haven't read all the thread... but if its just an ability check most of the time you should keep a low DC
ok therea re players that work to have their 28 inteligence wizards or 26 charisma sorceress
but its not always the case, nor its convenient for normal NPCs
so having a DC of 15 with a mere +3to the roll is already hard, lets not talk about what happen if you receive damage meaning you will hace to roll over 20 with a meere +5 (at most at levels 1 to 3)
so i would say you basicallly engate spellcastes to make defensive rolls or make it "always fail" when they recieve damage...
yes, you might then take away this situations like nto having to cast defensively, under a distraction, or after receiving damege, taking from the game a tool for deliver an interesting history and a way to challenge players...
i would continue using an skill because asDC escalates so does the skill... and high level wizards are much more practiced using their magic thana newbie
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i haven't read all the thread... but if its just an ability check most of the time you should keep a low DC
Yes. If you go with a difficulty of 10+spell level then the highest DC you could have to cast defensively would be a DC 19. You need at least a 19 in the proper ability to cast a 9th level spell. At worst you would have to roll a 15 on a d20; assuming the bare minimum. I think it is safe to assume that the majority of characters capable of casting a 9th level spell will have something more than the bare minimum.
ok therea re players that work to have their 28 inteligence wizards or 26 charisma sorceress
High ability scores are great, but they are also more common at higher levels. By the time your character is advanced enough to have an ability score pushing 30 then I don't see any problem with that character having an easier time of casting defensively. Easier, not automatic. That wizard with a 28 intelligence would only need to roll single digits for the vast majority of spells. Only 8th and 9th level spells would hover around a 50/50 chance of failure.
so having a DC of 15 with a mere +3to the roll is already hard, lets not talk about what happen if you receive damage meaning you will hace to roll over 20 with a meere +5 (at most at levels 1 to 3)
If the character casts defensively then it won't provoke an AOO. Better yet, the character can take a five foot step so as not to be threatened (or avoid entering melee entirely).
I agree that this system is not favorable to a caster who suffers damage while casting a spell, especially if that caster suffers more than 15-20 points of damage from a single hit. Still, I don't see a problem with that being the case. It is better than previous editions of the game where suffering any damage spoiled the spell. Characters are able to shrug off small amounts of damage, but it gives casters something to worry about at higher levels.
so i would say you basicallly engate spellcastes to make defensive rolls or make it "always fail" when they recieve damage...
I think "always fail" goes a bit far. If the damage is under 15 points then most casters have a fairly good shot at succeeding. It does encourage character to cast defensively, but isn't that the case now? Won't you already cast defensively or move out of a threatened square to avoid taking unnecessary damage?
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i will always try to mover away from a threatened are, but that is me... i have rotten luck with dices.
rolling with stats means that the characters never grow betterat casting or retaining an spell, they arejust as good as they were in level 1 as iftheir reach level 20
and i think this takes a bit from the experience of character gorwing, stillto each its own, i will keep the method Dogbert helped me define :)
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rolling with stats means that the characters never grow betterat casting or retaining an spell, they arejust as good as they were in level 1 as iftheir reach level 20
Characters get to raise one of their ability scores every 4 levels. It is a pretty good bet that a wizard, cleric, sorcerer or bard will put that point their primary spellcasting attribute. There are also a number of fairly common and popular magical items that raise ability scores. Headband of Intelligence, Gloves of Dexterity, etc.
I think it is a fair assumption that a spellcaster's primary ability score will increase as that character gains levels. Even if not permanently through magical items and regular bumps, then at least temporarily through spells.
Re. the lack of Constitution-based skills, I don't know if this has been discussed before, but how about taking a hint from SWRPG and introducing Endurance (Con)? It would replace all those Con-checks for holding one's breath, force-marching, resisting starvation and thirst, sleeping in armor, etc.
I've been using it in heavily house-ruled 3.5 games, and it worked out OK.
(Similarly, I've been using Meditation (Wis) as a partial substitute for Concentration and Autohypnosis, because I didn't want psions making Psicraft checks to get psi-focused. That, however, did cause a few problems...)
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rolling with stats means that the characters never grow betterat casting or retaining an spell, they arejust as good as they were in level 1 as iftheir reach level 20Characters get to raise one of their ability scores every 4 levels. It is a pretty good bet that a wizard, cleric, sorcerer or bard will put that point their primary spellcasting attribute. There are also a number of fairly common and popular magical items that raise ability scores. Headband of Intelligence, Gloves of Dexterity, etc.
I think it is a fair assumption that a spellcaster's primary ability score will increase as that character gains levels. Even if not permanently through magical items and regular bumps, then at least temporarily through spells.
i hate the abuse of magic items, depending on this area only on magic items (and i see some players use their new ability points for weak points instead of reinforcing the high one) so i see this as flawed and limiting
or in the worst case depending on the chrismas tree syndrome i really hate...
because of this thins i keep it a skill intead of just a ability roll
also an ability roll implies that elarning more of a certain area of his/hert radition is valeuless... because about magic he learns nothing, he grows none at all only depends on his natural skills
i see this as counterproductive to characters' development
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We've been playing for several weeks with a CL check (modified by casting stat) in place of Concentration (or Spellcraft). It's worked great.
Yes.
Allow me to explain what we've been testing (since the removal on Concentration skill).
First let me say that i like the removal of the skill tax. I see the wisdom in that - and the fact that it was a wonky Constitution based skill where no other skill fell into that category.
Another benefit of tying it into caster level - it awards single-devotion casters who advance as a "cleric" not a "cleric/fighter" who just puts 'cross-class' points into Concentration.
The Mechanic is still called "CONCENTRATION" check. A "caster level" check is already a known mechanic: D20 + caster level.
Concentration check is D20 + caster level + appropriate casting stat modifier.
Casting Defensively is DC = 5 + CMB of the person threatening the caster + level of spell being cast (+2 DC for each additional threatening creature; use the highest CMB out of those threatening to set the DC).
Instead of casting defensively, should the caster get hit by damage during casting, increase the DC by 10 (regardless of how much damage is dealt - but it's still adjusted by the CMB of the creature that hit him, so the prowess of the attacker is still accounted for from that regard).
Here are some samples:
1st level rogue: CMB = 0 (BAB) + 1 (str mod) = +1
1st level fighter: CMB = 1 (BAB) + 3 (str mod) = +4
1st level wizard: Concentration = 1 CL + 4 (Int modifier) = +5
1st level cleric: Concentration = 1 CL + 2 (Wis modifier) = +3
DC vs rogue: 5 + 1 (1st level spell) + 1 (rogues CMB) = 7
wizard at +5 needs to roll a 2 / cleric at +3 needs to roll a 4
DC vs fighter: 5 + 1 (1st level spell) + 4 = 10
wizard at +5 needs to roll a 5 / cleric at +3 needs to roll a 7
5th level rogue: CMB = 3 (BAB) + 2 (str) = +5
5th level fighter: CMB = 5(BAB) + 4 (str) = +9
5th level wizard: Concentration = 5 CL + 5 Int mod = +10
5th level cleric: Concentration = 5 CL + 3 (Wis modifier) = +8
DC vs rogue: 5 + 3 (3rd level spell) + 5 (rogues CMB) = 13
wizard at +10 needs to roll a 8 / cleric at +8 needs to roll a 10
DC vs fighter: 5 + 3 (3rd level spell) + 9 = 17
wizard at +10 needs to roll a 7 / cleric at +8 needs to roll a 9
12th level rogue: CMB = 9 (BAB) + 2 (str) = +11
12th level fighter: CMB = 12(BAB) + 7 (str) = +19
12th level wizard: Concentration = 12 CL + 6 Int mod = +18
12th level cleric: Concentration = 12 CL + 4 (Wis modifier) = +16
DC vs rogue: 5 + 6 (6th level spell) + 11(rogues CMB) = 22
wizard at +18 needs to roll a 4 / cleric at +16 needs to roll a 6
DC vs fighter: 5 + 6 (6th level spell) + 19 = 30
wizard at +18 needs to roll a 12 / cleric at +16 needs to roll a 14
18th level rogue: CMB = 13 (BAB) + 3 (str) = +16
18th level fighter: CMB = 18(BAB) + 8 (str) = +26
18th level wizard: Concentration = 18 CL + 9 Int mod = +27
18th level cleric: Concentration = 18 CL + 6 (Wis modifier) = +24
DC vs rogue: 5 + 9 (9th level spell) + 13(rogues CMB) = 27
wizard at +27 needs to roll a 0 / cleric at +24 needs to roll a 3
DC vs fighter: 5 + 9 (9th level spell) + 26 = 40
wizard at +27 needs to roll a 13 / cleric at +24 needs to roll a 16
{Above DCs increase by +10 if wizard takes damage as opposed to casting defenisvely. The DCs listed above are set with the notion of casting the most powerful spell on the casters list at that time. A tactical caster may realize how potent the enemy he is pinned down by and would most likely cast a signifantly lower level spell - such as the 12th level casters opting for a helpful 3rd level spell as opposed to 6th level - thus lowering the DC and the needed result on the die by 3; or the 18th level wizard may see the wisdom in casting a 5th level spell instead of a 9th lowering her DC by 4 to needing a roll of a 9! Regardless the examples show the variance between a 'back-up' melee combatant, and a prime example of fighting against the same wizard and cleric at the top of their game.}
FEAT:
Combat Casting
Prereq: Caster Level 1
Benfit: You gain a +2 to Concentration checks at 1st level of character and an additional +1 for every five levels of your character. (maximum of +6 at 20th level).
Robert
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I think Ability checks are silly anywhere in the system (I don't think you're silly for suggesting it, I just don't like the mechanic). Unless you have a LOT of equipment that boosts the stat in question to well beyond super-human (or super-elven, or super-dwarven... etc :) levels, then the die roll makes up between 33% and 80% of the result. You might as well go with the coin-flip solution. When you take so much of the actual "character" out of the chance for a result, then it seems kind of pointless.
I am all in favour of the solution being a CL check with an addition of the relevant casting stat. This has the effect of lowering the value of the check by 3 (since the class-skill bonus of 3 doesn't get added), but non-wizards aren't hampered by a low INT on the Spellcraft check. It also frees up a skill point for the casters.