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Monks The queries from Jason Bulmahn were (roughly) as follows:
(A) Are they effective combatants - if not, how can they be improved?
* Monks are moderately effective combatants, primarily due to having better CMB than others of equivelant or lesser BAB.
However, to really make the most of this in a meaningful fashion at higher level play where BIG beasties await, I would recommend (a) adding an additional bonus to the Maneuver Training class feature. Say, starting at 3rd level and improving by +1 per 3 additional Monk levels until 18th level, a Monk gains an insight bonus when calculating his CMB; (b) awarding monks full proficiency with all simple and martial weapons in addition to the exotic weapons for monks; (c) awarding monks when using Monk weapons their unarmed damage bonus as a replacement for the base damage of the weapon - if/when the former is higher than the latter; and (d) awarding monks as additional class features the benefits of Agile Maneuvers, Defensive Combat Training and Weapon Finesse feats.
(B) Do the monk's ki abilities fit with the flavor of the class?
* It strikes me - and always has - that 3e monks are 'always lawful'. Being as how it seems that monks are (very loosely) based upon martial arts masters, I would propose that monks can be of any non-chaotic alignment. The Ki Strike abilities could be themed along the lines of lawful / good / evil rather than merely lawful. I do believe that monks as written will not measure up to the amount of time a Barbarian of comparable level can spend in a Rage (all else being equal). The Wholeness of Body ability seems especially in need of being improved in capability - say, along the lines of a paladin's Lay on Hands - as it is strictly a personal/self-only ability.
(C) Are there any themes that are missing from this ability?
*I actually do not understand the rational behind a monk's gaining of certain class abilities, specifically Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun and Moon and Empty Body. I can see them belonging to a monk-based Prestige Class. These abilities if none other can and should readily be exchangable for other abilities more befitting a martial arts master. These also present - along with Quivering Palm and Diamond Body - a body of abilities that can be exchanged either within the core class or within the frame work of any number of prestige classes.
Thematic elements that are missing from the nominally classic 'monk' presented include such concepts as:
* applying Slow Fall without requiring a difficult-to-adjudicate distance to "within arm's reach of a wall".
* massive, short term boosts of strength, a true "Power Blow" as it does not lack in accuracy - say, based on being done as a Full Attack, combining the benefits of the Vital Strike feats with using the Wisdom modifier as the govorning ability score.
* blows smashing through objects (ignoring hardness), such as breaking boards, cinderblocks, etc. A "Breaking Blow".
* "ninja" type stealth such as 'walking on rice paper', the Ranger's 'Hide in Plain Sight' class feature; "ninja" or "lin kuei" are classically known for disguises, impersonation, use of traps and poisons as well, even up to the point of the rogue's Trapfinding class ability.
* hypnosis effects, i.e.: 'clouding men's minds'.
* healing powers (sometimes via internal energy channeled into the recipient, other times via external 'chi' energy channeled into the recipient); a good analogy would be the Paladin's 'Lay on Hands' ability.
* projection of Ki or Chi in various means; examples would include such things as direct "ranged unarmed strikes" to as complex as a blending of Telekinesis with the top-shelf abilities from Master of the Unseen Hand. Other examples of this include 'remote' wielding of melee weapons (typically big nasty ones).
* energy effects channelled through unarmed strikes and monk weapons, classically cold, electricity, fire and sonic (thunder) energy types.
* deflecting or avoidance of blows at the last moment (along the lines of a Moment of Prescience).
* shape changing along the lines of druidic Wild Shape or even full-on Shapechange.
These but scratch the surface of suitable Ki Powers - much, much more can be gleaned readily.
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I find myself in agreement.
I think that as it stands, tying the calss abilities of the Monk to a common theme (Ki Pool) is a step in the right direction. But I find that I dislike the "pool" mechanic. I was a firm opponent of the Rage Pool for Rage powers, since it didn't seem to fit the idea behind the barbarian. With the Monk, it seems to fit better, but I still dislike the mechanic.
Having run a number of playtests, I must admit that the Monk as played with the Ki Pool runs very smoothly. My problem lies not with the mechanic since it works both thematically and in play. I guess I just find it to be "odd" since it is the only class that uses a Pool mechanic (Though I know that some would argue that spontaneous casters also use a "pool" mechanic).
Having read the OP, I have to wonder if part of the problem is that a Monk's abilites should not be set in stone; that more customization should be possible. I know that certain feats at different levels can be chosen, but I mean some of the actual abilities. Maybe I am spoiled by the wonderful reinterpretation of the Rogue given through Rogue Talents, or the true advance of the Barbarian since the creation of Rage Powers (improved IMO by the new alternate version to not include the cost/spending mechanic of a pool).
Like the OP, I think that a lot of "Monk" type abilities are, as yet, not represented in the current form (or any form) of the class. A class should be able to customizable to the player without relying completely on feats or PRCs. The base class should reward a player at 20th level for not deviating into a PRC.
Just my two cents.
I find myself in agreement.
I think that as it stands, tying the class abilities of the Monk to a common theme (Ki Pool) is a step in the right direction. But I find that I dislike the "pool" mechanic. I was a firm opponent of the Rage Pool for Rage powers, since it didn't seem to fit the idea behind the barbarian. With the Monk, it seems to fit better, but I still dislike the mechanic.
Having run a number of playtests, I must admit that the Monk as played with the Ki Pool runs very smoothly. My problem lies not with the mechanic since it works both thematically and in play. I guess I just find it to be "odd" since it is the only class that uses a Pool mechanic (Though I know that some would argue that spontaneous casters also use a "pool" mechanic).
Having read the OP, I have to wonder if part of the problem is that a Monk's abilites should not be set in stone; that more customization should be possible. I know that certain feats at different levels can be chosen, but I mean some of the actual abilities. Maybe I am spoiled by the wonderful reinterpretation of the Rogue given through Rogue Talents, or the true advance of the Barbarian since the creation of Rage Powers (improved IMO by the new alternate version to not include the cost/spending mechanic of a pool).
Like the OP, I think that a lot of "Monk" type abilities are, as yet, not represented in the current form (or any form) of the class. A class should be able to customizable to the player without relying completely on feats or PRCs. The base class should reward a player at 20th level for not deviating into a PRC.
Just my two cents.
Aye, Monks amongst all the core classes have long suffered from offering the least customizability since 1e.
Perhaps, at the least specifically for Monks, the class abilities should be less hardwired and more customizable. This could reflect a combination of the character's 'school', sifu, mentor, family, clan or what have you as well as that character's individual progression in the mastery of the martial arts.
Of course, it may well be perceived that feats and prestige classes are perceived as the method to achieve that. If so, given how few feats a Monk receives as compared to the other "pure martial" character the Fighter, then 'Monk-specific' prestige classes/feats legitimately should have more 'bang for the buck'.
Naturally, further discussion is welcome. :) Thanks Arnim!
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I like some of the OP's suggestions regarding a) providing more customisation of a Monk's abilities through ki power selections; and b) the theme of a Monk's ablities.
Particularly: hypnosis effects 'these are not the droids you are looking for'; and
Ranged unarmed attacks: the monk already has some higher-level dimension door type abilities, I see ranged unarmed attacks like bending time/space to reach an opponent, somewhat like how you see martial arts flurry represented in movies or comics by a blur of motion, I could see striking from a distance represented in a similar manner.
Fighters have access to reach weapons, which Monks generally don't (unless Quarterstaff a reach weapon?). Striking from a distance would enable a Monk to strike an opponent 10' away, instead of 5' away. At higher levels (or with greater Ki expenditure?) he might be able to open brief dimensional holes in order to strike at even further distances.
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As a HUGE fan of the Alternative Rage Powers mechanic, I am biased about how easy it operates in game play and can be used for customization for a classes abilities.
I was an advocate for using a similar mechanic for a Paladin's Smite ability (as Smite Effects), and wouldn't mind seeing something similar for a Monk's Ki Pool (or Ki Powers). I think that it would allow a level of personalization to the Monk.
Of course, the SRD Monk would set the standard for the "generic" monk (and his feats/powers choices), but powers of a similar level of effect could be given as alternate choices (for example, the afore-mentioned "Jedi Mind Tricks").
Monks The queries from Jason Bulmahn were (roughly) as follows:
(A) Are they effective combatants - if not, how can they be improved?
* Monks are moderately effective combatants, primarily due to having better CMB than others of equivelant or lesser BAB.
However, to really make the most of this in a meaningful fashion at higher level play where BIG beasties await, I would recommend (a) adding an additional bonus to the Maneuver Training class feature. Say, starting at 3rd level and improving by +1 per 3 additional Monk levels until 18th level, a Monk gains an insight bonus when calculating his CMB; (b) awarding monks full proficiency with all simple and martial weapons in addition to the exotic weapons for monks; (c) awarding monks when using Monk weapons their unarmed damage bonus as a replacement for the base damage of the weapon - if/when the former is higher than the latter; and (d) awarding monks as additional class features the benefits of Agile Maneuvers, Defensive Combat Training and Weapon Finesse feats.
I am not really for the "all simple, all martial" approach to their weapon proficiencies. That detracts from the flavor of the class. If the class is supposed to have originated with the "humble, in tune with their bodies" kind of class, (I see it as channeling magic internally rather than externally as the casters) Then give them proficiencies with things that people would logically use in gathering sustenance (farming, fishing, etc). That is the.. *thinks* Nunchaku (flail, thresher), Kama (sickle), Dagger, Sling, Staff (I'd argue a spear as a side proficiency), Club.. That's all I can remember currently. I can't quite justify shuriken, save that they are a neat idea and perhaps an offshoot of a proficiency with a dagger and a curious mind, or maybe the use of coinage in friendly games of skill, much like tossing cards into a hat.
With those proficiencies, allow the monk to have one or two more proficiencies either chosen by the player (with some justification) or by a school/philosophy affiliation. I always saw the use of tools as an aid to accomplish work that without their use, would require some significant work. Perhaps a sect of monks that really do farm, but their ultimate intent is to become so capable that they can discard tools entirely and use their body as the ultimate tool?
I think I'm digressing, so I'll stop here on this point. They aren't exactly meant to be exclusive "front line" fighters, but more like capable people who do know how to fight and can defend themselves, but are more likely to use terrain, hit and run tactics, and unconventional approaches to achieve a goal of defeating someone. I know it doesn't stand against a Dragon, but then again, it can stand against a large number of creatures. They're supposed to be canny and wise, right?
(B) Do the monk's ki abilities fit with the flavor of the class?* It strikes me - and always has - that 3e monks are 'always lawful'. Being as how it seems that monks are (very loosely) based upon martial arts masters, I would propose that monks can be of any non-chaotic alignment. The Ki Strike abilities could be themed along the lines of lawful / good / evil rather than merely lawful. I do believe that monks as written will not measure up to the amount of time a Barbarian of comparable level can spend in a Rage (all else being equal). The Wholeness of Body ability seems especially in need of being improved in capability - say, along the lines of a paladin's Lay on Hands - as it is strictly a personal/self-only ability.
The "Lawful" requirement, I always took that to mean that they had especially intense focus on what they were trying to accomplish. Focusing inherent energy (Chi/Ki) towards a single purpose can't be easy. Focusing the inherent energy enough to affect others is a prestige class.
(C) Are there any themes that are missing from this ability?
With that, it is more of a school/philosophy/style type flavor. I was a fan of the Feat chains that allowed for an extra benefit, like in the old Oriental Adventures books.. the Fighting style tree chains. I'll admit that they are a bit limiting, since you'd likely spend all your character's feats on "mastering" the school, but then again, for one of such intense focus, self-denial may be required to reach one's goal.
I'm reminded of something that came to me when I was playing a monk character. I'll stick it here since I can think of no especially relevant place for it, but it does carry most of what I mean.
"No tool is considered 'simple' by anyone that has sufficient experience with it. For those who have not mastered the weapon, provided they are diligent in its use, they are always discovering new methods to use regarding the weapon. By extension, understanding new methods in which the weapon is used bring about an understanding in how the self is used in employment of the weapon. Balance is an important principle to maintain, as without balance, things fall in one direction or the other. With a sense of balance comes direction. A straight path is the fastest, but the most rigid of things that cannot bend, break. A broken tool is useless, and cannot serve the function for which it was made until mended.. If it can be mended. This is a weapon. By drawing it, I have given up the idea that the situation I have drawn it for will not see its use. Still, the employment of a weapon --or the following of a Direction-- need not lead to bloodshed. The diligent come to understand this, and the masters have long since learned, recognizing the tool for what it is. In the end, the wielder of the tool can come to understand themselves in all things, with the usage of the tool as their aid."
It is a trifle long, I admit, but perhaps it can shed some light on any places I was unclear in my explanation?
I personally would love to se a variety of monk style abilities that can be chosen, allowing for a great deal of customizability. Some Martial Artists dabble in a variety of style, others Master a single focus, some challenge the abilities of the mind while others seek to trancent the limitations of the body.
While certain elements are common to most monks, each should feel like a representation of his or her backstory.
I'd look at some of the abilities granted by classes like the Battledancer for inspiration as well as myths, legends and popular culture.
For as many people who think of Bruce Lee, or Crouching Tiger when monks are mentioned there are just as many for whom the word conjured the familiar cry HADOUKEN!!
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I like some of the OP's suggestions regarding a) providing more customisation of a Monk's abilities through ki power selections; and b) the theme of a Monk's ablities.
Particularly: hypnosis effects 'these are not the droids you are looking for'; and
Ranged unarmed attacks: the monk already has some higher-level dimension door type abilities, I see ranged unarmed attacks like bending time/space to reach an opponent, somewhat like how you see martial arts flurry represented in movies or comics by a blur of motion, I could see striking from a distance represented in a similar manner.
Fighters have access to reach weapons, which Monks generally don't (unless Quarterstaff a reach weapon?). Striking from a distance would enable a Monk to strike an opponent 10' away, instead of 5' away. At higher levels (or with greater Ki expenditure?) he might be able to open brief dimensional holes in order to strike at even further distances.
The 'Jedi Mind Trick' (hypnosis) effects are often attributed to such real-world styles as:
* An Ch'i* Lua - Hawaiian in origin
* Saiminjutsu "the way of the mind gate" is attributed to ninja and presumably by extension to Chinese Lin Kuei "forest demons", Korean Sulsa and Tibetan Trulkor
* Pentjak-Silat from Indonesia, featuring more than 150 recognized schools or substyles
Monks as a core class seem to reflect the martial art masters who delve into the more mystical and supernatural elements of their style. Fighters are the better core class to use for modelling 'physical' martial arts types. Given how many such lack substantial usage of body armor, such characters could lose armor and tower shield proficiencies to gain a Good Will save and trade Armor Mastery for Unarmored Defense Mastery (gaining a Dodge bonus to AC in its place) or - with feats perhaps? - additionally gain access to a similar benefit for using only a shield for personal defense.
Real word martial art styles that could reasonably be modelled by such a Fighter:
* The weapon-oriented martial arts of the Philippines commonly known as Arnis, Escrima and/or Kali;
* Burmese Bando practitioners;
* Malaysian Bersilat;
* various Japanese weapon-focussed styles such as Bojutsu, Jojutsu, Kenjutsu, Kyujutsu, Naginatajutsu, Saijutsu, Shurikenjutsu and Sojutsu. Other interesting ones I've heard about include Nabebutajutsu (saucepan lids) and Tegajutsu (umbrellas).
* Boxing and Wrestling, dating well BC in OTL to Greece, India and even Chinese Ch'uan P'o;
* good old-fashioned Fisticuffs;
* Brazilian Capoeira;
* Fencing or other 'Swashbuckling' styles (which is rather well-covered within most of the existing two-weapon feats);
* Japanese Jujutsu and Sumo Wrestling (the latter apparently having a strong similarity to Korean Cireum);
* Korean Tang Soo Do and Yu Sool;
* Okinawan Karate;
* Thai Kick-Boxing or Muay Thai, especially when including the related forms of weapons combat using swords, staves, polearms and clubs in various combinations known as Krabi-Krabong;
* Vietnamese Qwan Ki Do, Than Vo Dao (although this can be argued otherwise from what I gather), Vovinam Viet Vo Dao;
* Ethiopian Re-Efi Areh-Ehsee;
* French Savate
That leaves a lot more martial arts from the real world to draw upon for the Monk:
* Aikijutsu - some of the abilities attributed to the founder include fighting against many opponents without being harmed or even touched ; sensing an attacker's actions before that foe even moved ; paralyzing with but a touch. An example attributed to the founder relates starting from a distance 'dozens of feet' away to a man with his hand on a gun, then reaching him and grabbing hold of his wrist before he could even clear the weapon from its holster.
* An Ch'i, attributed to the Chinese "Lin Kuei" (forest demons), along with the aforementioned hypnotic 'mind trick', is also known for invisibility and especially common amongst them 'the ability to turn any small, throwable object into a weapon'.
* Korean Hapkido has attributed to some masters an ability known as "mind like the moon" to sense objects and attackers anywhere around them.
* Hsing-I or Xingyi is legendary for its spectacular feats and powerful attacks from projected Ch'i. In addition to those commonly attributed to Tai Ch'i Ch'uan, Hsing-I masters are said to be able to: project Ch'i through their blows to badly injure or kill ; survive what should be devastating blows unharmed; able to run fast enough to keep up with horses; and miraculous healing abilities.
* Korean Hwarang-Do, which in and of itself seems to incorporate a lot of healing knowledge , attributed to ancient 'knights' that lived by a five-point code of honor/conduct. The Shin Gong (mental powers) are said to have been formidable, including clairvoyance, telepathy and a "sixth sense".
* Ancient southern Indian 'Battlefield Practices' Kalaripayit - among other spellings - gurus are attributed with both the fighting and healing aspects of the art, the latter stemming from training in the Ayurvedic system of native medicine. Kali is said to be the patron Gawddess of these practitioners. The gurus healing abilities are the primary reason for potentially classifying them as Monks rather than Fighters, certainly not so far over as to warrant them as outright Clerics.
* Naturally, Kung Fu or Kuo-Shu, among many many many other names, is one of several real world styles ideal for basing a Monk core class around. A Kuo-Shu teacher is generally called a sifu. Commonly attributed powers include:
** dancing weapons, wielding the weapon without holding it or even allowing it to attack on its own;
** control and manipulation of fire;
** creation of food;
** Hing Kung or walking without a trace ;
** 'Iron Palm' or 'Crushing Hand', breaking objects with but a slap of the hand or even felling charging bulls dead in their tracks with a single such blow;
** 'Iron Skin', 'Iron Ox' or 'Iron Shirt', resisting weapon blows without harm;
** Kongjin varyingly interpreted as 'One Finger', 'Well Fist' or 'Empty Force', striking without making contact at considerable distance;
** variations on the 'Quivering Palm' Monk class ability in Kung Fu include Dim Mak, Poison Palm, Red Sand Palm and probably several hundred other names are attributed not only with possible death but pain, illness, numbness, and unconsciousness;
** summoning and control of ancestral spirits;
** teleportation covering hundreds of miles.
* Indonesian Kuntao or Kundao, apparently in terms of the legendary abilities at least, is similar to those of Kung Fu.
* Hawaiian Lua, variously translating as "hard and soft", "dislocation of joints" , "life and death" and "2" are said to command a number of special abilities, primary among them telepathy and hypnosis.
* Pakua, like Hsing-I above, share a body of legendary Ch'i abilities with Tai Ch'i Ch'uan practitioners. Of note especially to Pakua masters: having such great control of Ch'i that they can damage specific parts of a person or object. For example, a practitioner could smack an enemy delivering all the energy directly to, say, his liver.
* Pentjak-Silat pandekar or guru have two seperate sets of abilities. One set is what the master can do on his own accord, the other set is done with his kris .
** Self-contained abilities include: mystical healing powers ; telepathy; hypnosis; fighting effectively in total darkness; catching thrown weapons & returning them business-end back to the attacker; paralysis with but a touch; 'kill at a distance'; destroying objects with a powerful shout .
** Kris-based abilities include: Tuju "Sorcery by Pointing", killing someone merely by pointing the weapon at them or by stabbing their footprint; warning its wielder of danger by rattling in its sheath; 'dancing' (fighting on its own); drawing/transferring Fire from one area to another; turning away wild animals; draw water from the blade; create a swarm of hornets to attack an enemy; extending the weapon's hantu "guardian spirit" over the wielder and over others; curing the common cold by way of drinking the oil used to polish the blade.
* Tai Ch'i Ch'uan can be translated as "supreme ultimate fist" or "yin-yang boxing". Many abilities accredited to masters overlap with Kung Fu, Pakua and Hsing-I. Some abilities attributed to Tai Ch'i include:
** "Sword Finger", in game terms a self-generated Ghost Touch effect on the monk's unarmed strikes;
** Toy Sao "Push Hands" wherein those skilled at this technique effectively 'stick' to an opponent, maintaining contact no matter what foe does to shake them off - running, leaping, and acrobatics included;
** Immortality - not the "doesn't suffer old age" stuff, but true Immortality. Capstone ability anyone?;
** 'Iron Shirt' as with the Kung Fu ability, with some masters refining this even further so as to damage whatever strikes the master!;
** 'Dim Mak' ;
** Fa Ch'ing, a strike discharging energy into the target causing great damage or harm;
** various Kiai powers - effects could include healing, intimidation/fear, sonic damage (nonlethal or lethal);
** exhaling a breath infused with enough energy so as to be damaging and knocking a foe away from the master;
** Kongjin "Empty Force", as mentioned with Kung Fu.
*** 'Epic' monks of Taoist philosophy seem to be attributed with even more powerful Ch'i abilities as they attain 'Enlightened Immortality'.
* Of course, the often popular 'Ninjutsu' can be argued as a Monk rather than a Rogue. The actual fighting style is commonly known as Taijutsu. Here I am largely describing the Japanese attributions to Ninja, although many overlap with the other 'versions' (although most of those likely predate ninja...).
** Ninja are said to have a special significance in carrying 9 shuriken on their person. A technique affiliated with shurikenjutsu as well as taijutsu can be called 'The Dance of the Six Stars'. In game terms, this is a combination of Shot on the Run with a full attack action throwing all the shuriken the character can muster.
** Ryu no Tsume 'The Dragon's Claw' is said to - in game terms - permit the character's unarmed strikes to "inflict rending and tearing damage". In essence, this would change the character's unarmed strikes to inflicting 'bite' damage: bludgeoning and piercing and slashing, whichever is most beneficial. This would also extend to grappling damage if desired.
** 'The Sleep of Escape' is the reason for 1e monks gaining the 'Feign Death' ability, imo. As this basically matches up with that exactly.
** Outright magical abilities often attributed to ninja include: sheathing ones hands in flame both for illumination as well as for combat (and to ignite gunpowder);
walking on water without the aid of flotation devices (Water Walk);
walking through walls and other barriers;
origami-focussed magic - ninja learn how to use this to acquire small weapons such as daggers ;
actually sticking to walls, ceilings and other surfaces (Spider Climb);
'Iron Body' (as with several other styles);
Pass without Trace;
Invisibility to both hearing as well as several versions interacting with vision - these include regular Stealth , Hiding in Plain Sight , "Mind Like a Pool" and of course outright Invisibility;
Onibi no Jutsu "The Art of the Demon's Fire" involving the use of an enchanted kabuki mask - but requiring 'ki pool' uses to do anything at all - in this case, a bona-fide Breath Weapon!;
Kuji-Kiri "Nine Ways Cutting" is a mystical meditation involving finger-interlacing. Appropriately, there are nine combinations, each providing a temporary benefit or effect:
*** Rin "Strength"
*** Kyo "Direction of Energy"
*** Toh "Harmony"
*** Sha "Healing"
*** Kai "Premonition"
*** Jin "Knowing the thoughts of others"
*** Retsu "Mastery of Time and Space"
*** Zai "Control"
*** Zen "Enlightenment" ;
"Soul Leeching" - analagous to Vampiric Touch, although I can see at much higher levels functioning to also reduce the character's physical age...
"The Ultimate Disguise": shapeshifting, plain and simple.
I think that is a good basis to start from. ^_^
Me'mori:
I tend towards viewing 'generic' monks as being well-rounded and able to wield nearly any weapon with proficiency. Perhaps instead an amicable solution for this would be to grant them the various 'Improvised Weapon' feats in PF Beta to reflect their eclectic weapons training? And of course to, for 'Western' types that see Jackie Chan doing his thing with mops, benches and shopping carts...
Lawful Alignment does not, nor ever really has, reflected a being's discipline, willpower, drive and so forth. None of those things are reflected by alignment - they are reflected by ability scores in game mechanical terms. That is why I say Lawful alignment requirements seems really more situational than it presently is.
We could vehemently argue alignment in both directions of course, which is not the objective for either of us. I can see and agree with your points on the matter, though. And as always discussion is great for the development of the game for the Not-so-Secret Masters at Paizo! ^_^
I did like the 'style' feat chain/tree in 3.0 Oriental Adventures for any character to consider taking.
I do believe we may be inadvertantly agreeing upon the prestige class element. As one can see, there are MANY ways to shake things up for the Monk, the more, the merrier!
That entire list of yours should be printed out and stuck on a wall somewhere where someone at Paizo is working on the monk class. Really.
Talk about a mind-reeling list of things that most likely deserves their own book, probably shared with bards. Maybe not so much a list of "Ki powers" is needed with the monk class, but a "What can be done with X Ki points", listing. I've no idea how large that list may be, but it would definitely cover a wider spectrum.
You have my respect for that post. *salute*
That entire list of yours should be printed out and stuck on a wall somewhere where someone at Paizo is working on the monk class. Really.
Talk about a mind-reeling list of things that most likely deserves their own book, probably shared with bards. Maybe not so much a list of "Ki powers" is needed with the monk class, but a "What can be done with X Ki points", listing. I've no idea how large that list may be, but it would definitely cover a wider spectrum.
You have my respect for that post. *salute*
That would be pretty nifty to hear about Me'mori. ^_^
And thanks for the salute, it took a ... while to type up.
I agree with the op about diversified options instead of those fixed ones like Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun and Moon and Empty Body, specially with some martial arts in mind like those you posted ^^.
That is the whole concept - there's enough material from the sampling above to generate books of game material, imo.
And thanks for the kudo! ^_^
Hey, Jason...
How about a look see here?
Any comments?
I'll give this a BUMP! there Turin. Consider me weighing in on this as well.
Once upon a time while I was in the mood to run only OA games...
I did something to that effect. I sat down and wrote out a variant monk class that was completely interchangeable. Each style had a list of abilities it could choose from.
For example, certain martial art systems in the real world are more 'damaging', i.e. more painful to be taken down with. Others focus on abilities like Atemi waza. Granted, some of these abilities are represented by feats currently existing in the game. The sheer width and breadth of their scope those is not represented. Of course I don't expect Jason or any of the other developers to generate a Monk class thats 12 pages long or anything of the sort, but the idea of versatility is a good one.
I have to agree as well that certain of the Monk's higher level abilties from 3.5 I've never really cared for, not as the 'standard' Monk at least. Abilities like Abundant Step, while really nice, are not necessary to a Monk build. They should be something available for taking, but not required.
One of the things I did while designing this variable Monk, was to create different high level techniques for them. While Quivering Palm is a great ability...not every style is going to teach that ability. It would be nice to see some different abilities that can vary by choice or by style. The Rokugan Campaign Setting has one (they present it as a feat) called Death Touch. While similar to Quivering Palm it is a different...err...way of dying, shall we say. The mechanics behind the feat alone made it flavorful and fun. Something to think about.
I'll give this a BUMP! there Turin. Consider me weighing in on this as well.
Once upon a time while I was in the mood to run only OA games...
I did something to that effect. I sat down and wrote out a variant monk class that was completely interchangeable. Each style had a list of abilities it could choose from.For example, certain martial art systems in the real world are more 'damaging', i.e. more painful to be taken down with. Others focus on abilities like Atemi waza. Granted, some of these abilities are represented by feats currently existing in the game. The sheer width and breadth of their scope those is not represented. Of course I don't expect Jason or any of the other developers to generate a Monk class thats 12 pages long or anything of the sort, but the idea of versatility is a good one.
I have to agree as well that certain of the Monk's higher level abilties from 3.5 I've never really cared for, not as the 'standard' Monk at least. Abilities like Abundant Step, while really nice, are not necessary to a Monk build. They should be something available for taking, but not required.
One of the things I did while designing this variable Monk, was to create different high level techniques for them. While Quivering Palm is a great ability...not every style is going to teach that ability. It would be nice to see some different abilities that can vary by choice or by style. The Rokugan Campaign Setting has one (they present it as a feat) called Death Touch. While similar to Quivering Palm it is a different...err...way of dying, shall we say. The mechanics behind the feat alone made it flavorful and fun. Something to think about.
It could well be that the gentlecritters at Paizo would perhaps appreciate certain Forumites to contribute further information to flesh out and expand upon the poor Monk ?
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That entire list of yours should be printed out and stuck on a wall somewhere where someone at Paizo is working on the monk class. Really.
Talk about a mind-reeling list of things that most likely deserves their own book, probably shared with bards. Maybe not so much a list of "Ki powers" is needed with the monk class, but a "What can be done with X Ki points", listing. I've no idea how large that list may be, but it would definitely cover a wider spectrum.
You have my respect for that post. *salute*
Agreed 110%. Incredible job, Turin.
Page saved on HDD, and bookmarked for future reference.
That entire list of yours should be printed out and stuck on a wall somewhere where someone at Paizo is working on the monk class. Really.
Talk about a mind-reeling list of things that most likely deserves their own book, probably shared with bards. Maybe not so much a list of "Ki powers" is needed with the monk class, but a "What can be done with X Ki points", listing. I've no idea how large that list may be, but it would definitely cover a wider spectrum.
You have my respect for that post. *salute*
Agreed 110%. Incredible job, Turin.
Page saved on HDD, and bookmarked for future reference.
Me too. You have obviously a great knowledge of Martial Arts in real world.
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did you ever notice how in Honk Kong Action movies that the hero can make the villian an ally
I have a feat idea
on a critical hit the target must make a will save of 10+the monks lvl+cha mod as the dc. or take one step toward the monks alinment
im just not sure what the prereq would be ?
a feat thta allowed you to break items like a bricks and boards
maybe a reduction in hardness based upon the monks level like ignore 5 hardness per 4 levels
and a feat that allowed you to balance the chi of another creature allowing a second save vs satus effects.
any ideas ?
did you ever notice how in Honk Kong Action movies that the hero can make the villian an allyI have a feat idea
on a critical hit the target must make a will save of 10+the monks lvl+cha mod as the dc. or take one step toward the monks alinment
im just not sure what the prereq would be ?a feat that allowed you to break items like a bricks and boards
maybe a reduction in hardness based upon the monks level like ignore 5 hardness per 4 levelsand a feat that allowed you to balance the chi of another creature allowing a second save vs satus effects.
any ideas ?
I always figured that was a new character being introduced to the game.
Lemme see ...
Hong Kong Action Buddy
Requirement to Learn: Charisma 13+
Requirement to Use: A new player or a player showing up late; player character having been deceased the previous session or deceased during the late player's absentee time.
During the course of a Big Fight Scene, Your Hero impresses an Antagonist with his martial arts badassedness, culminating at the arrival time in question. Your Hero, during the course of the arrival of that player, thus justifies the New Character's existence in the game group.
Minor Ki Healing
Requirement: Wholeness of Body
By making a Heal check as a standard action on a living creature, you permit the application of the Heal skill's benefit to treat disease or poison against any Fortitude-based effect that imposes a "status" effect, such as but not limited to exhaustion/fatigue, fear effects, blinding/deafness effects and stun. This cannot undue permanent Fortitude-based effects such as petrification and Baleful Polymorph.
Breaking Blow
Requirement: 5th level Monk
As part of either a standard action unarmed strike or any full-round unarmed strike attack, the Monk with this feat may channel Ki so as to easily destroy a targeted object. Note that an attended object has to be Sundered as a Combat Maneuver. At a cost of 1 Ki point per attack, spent as the attack is performed, the Monk ignores 5 points of the target object's Hardness per 4 full Monk levels for that attack.
Hope that works!
Me too. You have obviously a great knowledge of Martial Arts in real world.That entire list of yours should be printed out and stuck on a wall somewhere where someone at Paizo is working on the monk class. Really.
Talk about a mind-reeling list of things that most likely deserves their own book, probably shared with bards. Maybe not so much a list of "Ki powers" is needed with the monk class, but a "What can be done with X Ki points", listing. I've no idea how large that list may be, but it would definitely cover a wider spectrum.
You have my respect for that post. *salute*
Agreed 110%. Incredible job, Turin.
Page saved on HDD, and bookmarked for future reference.
I do not get credit for this body of knowledge, although I do have the material from which I condensed the information onto this post.
One can thank Aaron Allston for his excellent 2e D&D Complete Ninja's Handbook which borrowed heavily from 1e's Oriental Adventures hardcover, as well as the Ninja HERO book he wrote for HERO system, laying the foundation upon which ...
Steven S. Long's seminal martial arts work, the HERO System's 4th edition rules set Ultimate Martial Artist. I would classify this as the current "King of the Hill" work on gaming-based martial arts from the real world. The latter incarnation written for 5th edition HERO system is not nearly as good as the 4th edition book of the same name, in my opinion.
One can also thank the late, great Erik Wujik for his similarly excellent work on martial arts for the Palladium game system. Specifically his work of love on the Chinese martial arts, of which we the reader only caught the very surface of in the similarly excellent Mystic China book. Enlightened Immortals are truly EPIC in d20 terms! (Just wait until you check out the other stuff buried in there - great stuff to 'borrow' for certain areas of Golarion!)
GURPS has also done some good-to-excellent material since 3rd edition GURPS on the Martial Arts, largely led I believe by Sean Punch.
To all of these gentlemen I owe an immense debt of gratitude as a gamer. Properly speaking, the above post humbly condenses a lot of the information they brought to the fore for gamers every where. It is my hope that I do them justice.