Anyone heard any news on this front? Next to homemade and some of Greyhawk, Ravenloft is my favorite world easy. Has anyone heard any news abotu what's to be done with the Demiplane of Dread?
Of course I'm looking across the room at my "Hollow world" Box set and thinking that might be interesting to do in 4e (not that that setting has been touched by anyone official in years).
The only thing I've heard about 4E Ravenloft was when its name was thrown out with a bunch of old 2E era settings that are planned for revisiting in 4E. When (or indeed, if) that will happen though, I have no clue. FR is this year, with Eberron in '09. Everyone is betting on what is coming out in '10 but to be honest, I haven't seen much speculation that it'll be Ravenloft, so I'd expect '11 or '12 at best.
As much as I can see a 4E Spelljammer or 4E Mystara with ease, I just can't see Ravenloft working as well with 4E as it did with AD&D.
It would be very different in theme and approach, I think.
Horror may be one theme 4E will have a bit of trouble with. I was never really big into Ravenloft, but it seems the common theme in horror is the weakness of mortal man vs the monsters that go bump in the night.
In 4E the PCs bump back. ;)
I'm pretty much 100% positive that a 4e Ravenloft will be made. As for when...that I can't help you with other than to say not for a few years. In fact, I could see them releasing Ravenloft as an adventure instead of a setting. It was originally an adventure before it was a setting and it went back to being that in 3e by the end.
I think one will be made, but I also agree that 4E does not seem - and I freely admit I could be totally wrong about this - to be very conductive at all to a horror type game. A zombie movie? Sure. A real horror one, nah, I don't think the system is designed to model that.
okay, here's a question then. What about 4E makes it not work for horror?
How would you make it work? Let's see if we can figure some ideas out. The first things I'm sure alot of people would say would be either A: Pump up the Baddies, or B: Nerf The Goodies. Is that the only way? Does this really help? I would like to believe there might be other ways around this problem.
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Horror may be one theme 4E will have a bit of trouble with. I was never really big into Ravenloft, but it seems the common theme in horror is the weakness of mortal man vs the monsters that go bump in the night.
In 4E the PCs bump back. ;)
Basically, yes.
Pumping/nerfing would be an artificial solution to this problem. Altering the system to make it fit just results in an inferior product, in my opinion.
To be honest, I would answer "I'd run it with AD&D", but that's obviously not an option on this thread.
So to publish a 4E Ravenloft, I'd rework the setting itself to fit 4E's assumptions. I would learn from Sword & Sorcery's treatment, and basically emphasize to the max the notion of "Heroes of Light".
There would be NO point of light in Ravenloft. Or rather, yes, there would be...
The PCs ARE the Points of Light. That's it. That's what would make it special, and make it "4E" in tone. That would be my core design concept, right here.
Heroes against the tide of darkness. They would have to build their own defenses, their own inner "walls" to survive. That could be totally awesome. But that wouldn't be TSR's Ravenloft.
I think the PC powers menu would definitely need to be reduced and toned down for 4e to be able handle a gothic setting like Ravenloft (which also happens to be one of my favourites). Bumping up the power levels of PCs and/or monsters would only further take away from the flavour of Ravenloft, IMO. More so than any other setting, Ravenloft would probably need a player's guide of its own... but I don't see WotC going down that road. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft already steered Ravenloft further away from gothic horror towards "high action hack and slash horror"... and sadly, I don't expect to see WotC reverse that trend. I don't think there are enough gamers out there that really appreciate gothic horror.
I think TwiceBorn's points are accurate and will add some of my own. 4E is set up for flashy high intensity action, (which is why the zombie movie works, since they are action based). It does that very very well.
IMO what makes a good horror plot work is that combat is rarely, if ever, the proper solution. You need to set a mood at the table, to draw the players into the proper feel, and if they can hack down everything, like a normal adventure, then it's very hard to establish that feeling, to get the players scared and create the proper ambiance for horror.
4E seems to me to not offer any appropriate abilities for players to use in a classic horror scenario. There are very few powers that are not designed around combat. Skill Challenges are awesome, but could you do nothing but them for a whole night? I'm not sure you could.
I want to stress this is simply an impression that the current rules give me. I could be wrong, or we could see a 'Heroes of Horror' for 4E that gives extra options for those kinda games.
I think TwiceBorn's points are accurate and will add some of my own. 4E is set up for flashy high intensity action, (which is why the zombie movie works, since they are action based). It does that very very well.
IMO what makes a good horror plot work is that combat is rarely, if ever, the proper solution. You need to set a mood at the table, to draw the players into the proper feel, and if they can hack down everything, like a normal adventure, then it's very hard to establish that feeling, to get the players scared and create the proper ambiance for horror.
4E seems to me to not offer any appropriate abilities for players to use in a classic horror scenario. There are very few powers that are not designed around combat. Skill Challenges are awesome, but could you do nothing but them for a whole night? I'm not sure you could.
I want to stress this is simply an impression that the current rules give me. I could be wrong, or we could see a 'Heroes of Horror' for 4E that gives extra options for those kinda games.
I'm not really sure about Ravenloft per se. The powers would be a big issue. Ravenloft helps keep the players in line by nerfing a lot of the more versatile spells.
High level mages can be an issue in Ravaneloft - I recall using it for a pretty high level 2nd edition spell and I was just being nasty to the players. The Clerics had lost contact with their Gods, they still had their spells but no way to regain them. Once used up that was it. I was even more viscous with the mages. Every time they cast a spell they immediately gave their position away and some awful horrors (think Nazgul) raced to the parties last known location. I was not even tracking hps with the things they were simply unkillable and the only thing to do was to find a way to escape and then try and circle around to continue with the adventure. So the mage players became total psychological wrecks. Basically just normal guys with daggers and not many hps. They were a drag on the rest of the party since the fighters and rogues had to protect them while everyone tried to find a way out ASAP before attrition killed them off.
Totally violates any idea that everyone should be useful in the party but in 2nd that did not really exist anyway. High level mages were clearly more powerful then anyone else. So a change up where the fighters and thieves had to carry the day was something akin to fair play.
Not sure I'd call it horror per se but it certianly was brutal.
I think one of the main hurdles is getting past the "combat is the first answer to any question" idea.
I think one of the main hurdles is getting past the "combat is the first answer to any question" idea.
The problem is much of the old ravenloft line would be considered "unfun" by the current designers. Unwinnable battles, horror, fear, madness etc. PC's arent really designed to feel helpless in 4e. I mean mechanically things could be taken away ie no encounter power etc, but that kinda kills the mood.
Then again, that might cause a bigger push for them to do it. Ravenloft with its gothic horror, might be a truly diffrent campaign book to spice 4e up in a few years.
I think one of the main hurdles is getting past the "combat is the first answer to any question" idea.
The problem is much of the old ravenloft line would be considered "unfun" by the current designers. Unwinnable battles, horror, fear, madness etc. PC's arent really designed to feel helpless in 4e. I mean mechanically things could be taken away ie no encounter power etc, but that kinda kills the mood.
Then again, that might cause a bigger push for them to do it. Ravenloft with its gothic horror, might be a truly diffrent campaign book to spice 4e up in a few years.
With FR this year, and Eberron next, I think we'll be getting further and further divergent campaigns as the years go by. Really, the question is, do they release the closer to core stuff first (GH, DL) or kick off '10 with something crazy (DS) and intersperse the weirder campaign settings with the more standard?
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With FR this year, and Eberron next, I think we'll be getting further and further divergent campaigns as the years go by. Really, the question is, do they release the closer to core stuff first (GH, DL) or kick off '10 with something crazy (DS) and intersperse the weirder campaign settings with the more standard?
I imagine it will be sometime until we see Greyhawk. Be funny if it had the old magic system. Id like to see Ravenloft but I think Spelljammer might be a likely setting in '10, with the astral sea and all.
I imagine it will be sometime until we see Greyhawk. Be funny if it had the old magic system. Id like to see Ravenloft but I think Spelljammer might be a likely setting in '10, with the astral sea and all.
Eh, either strategy has merits, so I'm not sure which way to go. I do think Greyhawk was the first "old" setting mentioned when Mearls ran down his list of settings coming back in 4E, but of course that list wasn't in any specified order.
I highly doubt it'll have the old magic system though, whenever it arrives. :P
Be a funny marketing ploy, and spellbooks are more powerful with the Vsystem! Doubt it, but it would be amusing.
I imagine Greyhawk was on the list as much because it was default in 3e and the living world. I think both give it reasons to be later in the cycle. Just not as new and flashy, plus some people have played it for 7 years or so.
Dark sun or Ravenloft bring something diffrent to the table. Would Soth and Vecna be in Rloft or escaped? However, spelljammer does fill in some gaps that are in the core design.
I think Id want Spelljammer over Greyhawk (way to many old books I havent used). As for Ravenloft...Ill always take more books of the DoD.
Could give the party minions. Give the minions names, personalities, goals, dreams.
Then the monsters eat them if the party doesn't protect them good enough.
I'm not sure how often you could do this though without them just becoming a red shirt joke.
see thats what I'm talking about, making the game work w/o having to change things. Okay some things will most likely be changed, but only in the spirit of the earlier incarnations of Ravenloft. Like how some spells just didn't work or some powers changed. How some gave you dark powers checks.
I've been a lurker on these message boards for weeks now, but this topic forced me to go sign up and post.
I'll say this for everyone: I Love Gothic Horror. I Love Ravenloft.4E can run Ravenloft pretty easily.
How is that possible you might ask..? You don't have to nerf players or make superpowered monsters to counteract the big flashy powers of 4E characters. The descriptions of the powers can be altered without changing their fundamental mechanics in any way. A Paragon level example would be the level 19 rogue power 'Snake's Retreat'. You strike a big hit for 6(W) + Dex and then make immediate interrupts to move a square every time the creature attacks you thereby avoiding all atacks. Doesn't that sound like a big Werewolf moment? Any big scary monster, really. The Rogue gets it's attention and spends the rest of the fight backing away from it every time it swings. Ducking under tables and out windows as it relentlessly chases him down... at least until it makes the saving throw and smacks him, but good.
My point wasn't so much what a dm could do. Ravenloft has always been mood over rules. I honestly dont remember any rules from 2e ravenloft, but do remember the player terror. (by and by my favorite module of all time is still Adam's Wrath, The only Rloft module I ran). My comments on the unfun, is Im nervous to see what an official Ravenloft would look like, less they pick diffrent writers for the project. Honestly for those intrested Id say look at the 2e books, they'll be just as useful.
Chris?
am I not seeing some posts?
Chris?
am I not seeing some posts?
I think she meant Charles.
I'm not sure that the philosophy of Action Points or daily powers would fit with the 'feel' of a 2nd Edition style Ravenloft setting; I have had explained to me that the 4E mechanics are about How the PCs can do amazing things which their enemies can't, and can pick their moments of destiny- how (even when they're getting their butts kicked by a solo monster that aren't munchkin'ed upto facing) they are in constant control of any and every situation...
I assume you know your exaggerating here - I hope so anyway. I mean I agree with you to some extent that there is a bit of a disconnect between the cinematic feel of 4E and Ravanloft but these cinematic moves are are a two way street. They bad guys get them as well and the uber Vampire villain can easily be designed to have a lot of cinematic moves (which is to say he could get a bunch of Action Points, encounter and daily powers).
Now I think that cinematic action RPGing and Gothic Horror are pretty unusual bed mates but maybe not impossible and in truth even 2nd edition faced a similar issue with the Vancian casting system which put a lot of potent resources in the players hands. Now 2nd edition dealt with this by nerfing the casters. Maybe we could do that in 4E but I'm rapidly coming around to other posters views that we ought to instead try and layer Gothic Horror on top of Cinematic RPGing and go with something thats more 'Gothic Horror with a big special effects budget' feel to it.
try and layer Gothic Horror on top of Cinematic RPGing and go with something thats more 'Gothic Horror with a big special effects budget' feel to it.
Like if "Dark Shadows" had the production budget for LOTR?
I have privately concluded that the best that I could hope for from a 4E Ravenlift setting would be a D&D version of the 'Van Helsing' movie, but there are very few moments of what I would regard as being actual horror in that; certainly the scene in the palace ballroom where the heroine sees in the mirrors that although the room is full, she is the only one with a reflection, but off the top of my head I cannot think of any more than that.
So we both agree that it seems difficult but maybe not impossible.
I was under the impression that Action points were exclusively the perogative of PCs, because in the game world only they are 'that special'. Thank you for correcting me on this.
Actually monsters are more powerful in this regard then PCs. Players can only spend 1 action point per encounter but NPCs, including monsters, can spend as many a they happen to have, though no more then 1 per round.
A serious problem that I see with using a 'big special effects budget' (higher power monsters than PCs would usually face for their level- perhaps you meant something else by this?) on PCs, is that power creep and accelerated level progression are the end result when the PCs end up defeating those...
Accelerated level of progression could be an issue - though the DMG does mention slower progression campaigns especially for ones that will only concentrate one one tier (the whole campaign will only see the players go from 1st to 10th for example).
Note that one element that does help the horror angle is the players are just less powerful except at the lowest levels, even compared to 2nd edition characters. Higher level spells are simply more earth shattering then higher level powers. So far anyway.
What I was really thinking about by cinematic was the action scenes. Your going to have things like the PC monk attacking the Uber Vampire and his two minions and it'll be like an action flick. The Monk does a leaping kick (encounter power) moves 3 squares (15 feet) Hits the Uber Vampire and lands in the middle of him and his minions. Player spends an action point and uses Spinning Kick (daily power) which targets all enemies in burst of 1 (every one adjacent to him). Everyone hit takes 1[W (or whatever symbol they use for Monk unarmed attacks)] and target is pushed 3 squares and goes prone. The Vampires two minions and himself all explode outward, flying 15' and landing on their backs after the Monks devastating attack. Now its the Uber Vampires turn and the DM knows he'll spend an action point this round. With uncanny speed the Uber Vampire leaps to his feat and charges the monk clawing him he then uses his powerful Dominating Gaze ability which stuns the monk (save ends). Will the Monk shake off the effects in time? Tune in next week and...
Essentially the combat scenes in 4E are designed to be action packed and mobile. Its like an action flick and action flick and horror are harder to mix. Now I think we can see certain elements that hint that they can be mixed in the film Kill Bill but they are not really easy bed mates.
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Zombie movies rock!
You'll love this then Aber...
Z-DayTo answer the OP.
WotC have announced that Dragon will have the same "event" that Paizo-era Dragon had. The "event" where they re-visit a bunch of out of print Worlds/Settings, doing one article on each World/Setting. Check this out: Campaign Classics: Hazards of Dark Sun.
Ravenloft is probably my favourite Setting, but I just don't think that 4e would do it justice. It just doesn't have the right feel to it.
Ravenloft is probably my favorite Setting, but I just don't think that 4e would do it justice. It just doesn't have the right feel to it.
After what some others have mentioned here I'm wondering if the problem would not be the system but in the mindset of the people who would write it. I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just thinking that the current people working at wotc have a different goal in mind than what "Ravenloft" is.
Ravenloft is probably my favorite Setting, but I just don't think that 4e would do it justice. It just doesn't have the right feel to it.After what some others have mentioned here I'm wondering if the problem would not be the system but in the mindset of the people who would write it. I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just thinking that the current people working at wotc have a different goal in mind than what "Ravenloft" is.
Yeah, IMO thats a huge problem. I was horrified by what was done to I6: Ravenloft in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
They took the ultimate Gothic Horror module, and probably one of the greatest modules ever made for D&D, in fact, I've met those who contend that its the single greatest adventure ever made for Dungeons & Dragons, and they turned it into a hackfest.
Now I've read a lot of posts regarding Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (usually in reviews and such) that essentially say 'Well I never played the original but me and my group are having a blast!' It would seem that the product is good and its only the old timers who recognized the original as a classic Gothic Horror master piece that can't get over whats been done to the product.
Still there is something in the mechanics that encourage or discourage great horror modules. There were relatively few good horror adventures for 3.5 as well. At least when we compare 3.5 to 2nd (here I'm looking through the pages of Dungeon). I think that even the good freelancers (Steve Greer, GGG etc.) were having a really hard time getting their heads around how to match mechanics with horror themes. There were a number of threads on horror themed adventures back in the day when Paizo was mainly about Dungeon and Dragon magazine and yet very few adventures really had a Gothic Horror feel in Dungeon during the 3.x era. Lots of Cuthulu style horror, Logue does excellent (and disturbing) slasher flick style horror and both 3.5 and 4E can do hack and slash horror very well.
However Gothic Horror, good stuff anyway, is really tough to write at the best of times and if the mechanics are not helping...