Ok don't get me wrong as it is written it is one of the best adventures that I as a DM have had the pleasure of running. (Heck I got a player laugh so hard at the goblin song they fell out of the chair)(Btw If you have seen The Black Caldron film I recommend using Gurgy as a template for goblin voices)(Crunchies and munchies, oh my)
That have been said though there are a few items / issues that I have with it. And if these had been brought up before I am sorry
2. While I love that you guys are using stuff for other publishers such as Green Ronin. Not all of us have them. (Heck I did not even know about some of them till I saw them listed in the AP), also could you list what books you pull materials from at the start of the module and not hidden on a stat block.
3. as with the dungeon mag APs the gp rewards are very light and will put the pcs behind the curb for where they are to be in total wealth.
1. Erylium has been covered in one/two thread - the GM's reference for Burnt Offerings being one of them. The most common solution that I've seen
Even if the group can't find a way to defeat Erylium at the moment they don't have to - retreat is always an option. And since
2. Although Paizo is using Green Ronin books, they provide all of the information that you need to run in the Pathfinder module. Kinda convenient, ne?
3. Sorry - this is something I NEVER worry about. My players are a bunch of munchkins (said in the most loving tones) and frankly - they don't need the money.
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WRT point 1; how long have your players been playing D&D3rd Edition?
Players who are unfamiliar with the concept of DR could get royally mauled, while long-time players could have long-since learned to prepare for such occurrences, and have it not even be an issue.
Even a quarter-century ago, such items as silver weapons, wolfsbane, garlic, holy water, iron spikes and a 10-foot pole were considered my standard gear...3E just added a few more things to the list!
3E just added a few more things to the list!
But stuff they can't afford (or find anywhere) isn't on that list. There aren't that many holy cold iron items lying around in sandpoint.
My group is mixed on its experience, as for having those items by second lv Which my group was at the time. How many times as your Dm pulled out the you’re over your weight limits on you. I do and on a regular basis, also at the time that the pc are entering the glass works they have earned a total of 315 gp = 78 gp each for a party of 4. And thats if they sell every thing off all the goblins that they are to meet. A cold iron short sword is 20 gp and a long sword is 30 gp there goes almost 1/2 your loot money on an item that you may not see a monster that needs it for a long while.
As for grappling with a quasit, sure I want to grapple with a monster that has poison claws, 3 to 4 failed saves later the person doing the grapple is not moving and is on his way to a quick death.
All I am saying is that the loot needs to be upped a slight degree and that one or two items to help the pcs with the boss/ special encounters for the dungeon should be put in (ex instead of a silver dagger on Koruvus switch it to a cold iron one (also for those who keep track the dagger is at 22gp for silver and 4 gp for a cold iron))
I have to agree, as my sorcerer bit the big one in the Erylium encounter (I was beginning to think the DM just likes to see characters flounder around evermounting obstacles, with no gold whatsoever)
Most of my players have taken to making their own weapons. They all have craft skills in something.
And they have their chars carry around different types of daggers, to make sure that they can bypass some of the DR.
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There aren't that many holy cold iron items lying around in sandpoint.
It's either/or; so relatively inexpensive (double normal weapon price, I believe).
It all comes down to whether the players have prior experience of the game, and if not, whether the DM wants to give them a break, either by slipping an extra item into the loot, or by dropping a hint.
It may or may not fit this specific scenario, but a villain may want to obtain a weapon of special material vs his minion, just as 'insurance', and a trader in town may recall "There was a guy in last week, pestering me for <element X>. Quite rude he was, too...".
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My players had trouble with Erylium, but they thought it was an all around great encounter. They couldn't hurt her for very much, but she couldn't really do a lot to them either(and they were first level when they fought her, they made like a bee-line straight to her). They didn't have any weapons that could pierce the damage reduction, but it was low enough and her HP was low enough that if they got her within melee attack range she would be dispatched of quickly, just because most attacks would overcome her DR and even just 2 or 3 points of damage would kill her quickly.
Grappling does seem to be the best way to accomplish this, with her high up in the air my group was considering jumping from the platform to try and grab her, but the druid summoned a hawk which managed to out grapple the quasit and bring it down. I should point that out again, a hawk out grappled her. The wizards familiar was a crow and it would have had a reasonable chance at it. The quasits grapple score was negative, and negative in the double digits. Once it was down it was easy to keep in place so everyone could just whack at it, and while it could throw daggers well enough its melee attack was pretty pitiful too and that makes for a much easier fight.
As was mentioned above though, fleeing was a viable option. Even if the players didn't want to leave it alive and knowing about them, just falling back to the previous room so it had to come through the doorway where they could get to it and strike at it would have been enough. JJ mentioned on one of the other threads that they like to insert combats like this into things, where the characters have to develop some sense of tactics without it simply being overwhelming. I thought this was a great example, though I'm sorry that it didn't work so smoothly for your group.
-Tarlane
It's either/or; so relatively inexpensive (double normal weapon price, I believe).
I should have known that. Yeah, with silver or good it's relatively easy. A couple of daggers (one silver, one cold iron) are a smart investment.
In fact, with my policy of standard stuff being assumed without having to be written down explicitly, I would let my players get away with a backup pair of daggers.
actually our main problem is that she kept going invisible, but we won after re-equiping. With a newly minted caster-though down 1 level :( our rogue in fit of brilliance, bought sacks of flour and when she appeared he'd bomb her with one then we grappled her and poured our whole collective gp (and a couple Father Zantus aided us with) worth of holy water on her round after round till she was no more (I got to deliver a couple vicious Shocking Grasps from my evoker too)
My players went through the Erylium like it was a cake walk. Part of that was my own problem, I let the npc get too close to the ground and the monk the party grappled her. As much as I tried to free her I didn't do so well of a job (mostly cause I hate 3.5 grapple rules). I had her escape later and free Tsuto (whom they also grappled and tied up). I plan on having these two npcs show back up at Thistletop.
The problem I'm having is that my players are waaaaaay too smart. Particularly one of them. At this point I think it's going to bite them in the a$$. After defeating the initial goblins on the mainland side of the bridge, they are planning on waiting. There are lot of things I can do with that, and none of them bode well for the pcs. It is far less dangerous for them to assault the place head on, that way they deal with the encounters spread out, instead of waiting too long and ending up with all of the npcs in one location trying to kill them. I don't want to kill the pcs, but by the same token I think I need to teach them a lesson about playing their charactes and not playing themselves.
I don't want to make the npcs totally stupid. The goblins generally are, but with Nualia and the others running the show, they at least have someone who can plan for them.
What I'm having more of a problem with is my players arguing with me over "inconsistencies" in the game world. These consistencies are more of an issue because one of my players keeps wanting to fit everything into the little box that is medieval Europe. Specifically he was complaining that Sandpoint didn't have more guards and defenses because it's on the coast south of Riddleport, like some pirate ship is going to attack a town a day's travel from Magnimar. Any tips on how to nip that in the butt other than constantly saying "it's a fantasy game"?
My players went through the Erylium like it was a cake walk. Part of that was my own problem, I let the npc get too close to the ground and the monk the party grappled her. As much as I tried to free her I didn't do so well of a job (mostly cause I hate 3.5 grapple rules). I had her escape later and free Tsuto (whom they also grappled and tied up). I plan on having these two npcs show back up at Thistletop.
The problem I'm having is that my players are waaaaaay too smart. Particularly one of them. At this point I think it's going to bite them in the a$$. After defeating the initial goblins on the mainland side of the bridge, they are planning on waiting. There are lot of things I can do with that, and none of them bode well for the pcs. It is far less dangerous for them to assault the place head on, that way they deal with the encounters spread out, instead of waiting too long and ending up with all of the npcs in one location trying to kill them. I don't want to kill the pcs, but by the same token I think I need to teach them a lesson about playing their charactes and not playing themselves.
I don't want to make the npcs totally stupid. The goblins generally are, but with Nualia and the others running the show, they at least have someone who can plan for them.
What I'm having more of a problem with is my players arguing with me over "inconsistencies" in the game world. These consistencies are more of an issue because one of my players keeps wanting to fit everything into the little box that is medieval Europe. Specifically he was complaining that Sandpoint didn't have more guards and defenses because it's on the coast south of Riddleport, like some pirate ship is going to attack a town a day's travel from Magnimar. Any tips on how to nip that in the butt other than constantly saying "it's a fantasy game"?
One of my quick fixes when running a module, especially if the players KNOW its a module and they have a problem like the number of guards or such is to simply remind them that I didn't write it, someone who makes money at this did, and usually that's that. If it's my own campaign or world and this happens I simply just say "Well that's just how it is. Welcome to (wherever)." Luckily for me though my players are mostly not argumentive over that kind of stuff and they like the little changes fine (especially since none of them are from the middle ages of Europe or History majors) and usually I just have to deal with stupid little rules issues, like invisibility and environment interaction or some such... :P
What I'm having more of a problem with is my players arguing with me over "inconsistencies" in the game world. These consistencies are more of an issue because one of my players keeps wanting to fit everything into the little box that is medieval Europe. Specifically he was complaining that Sandpoint didn't have more guards and defenses because it's on the coast south of Riddleport, like some pirate ship is going to attack a town a day's travel from Magnimar.
There's two options here:
1. "Hm. Good point. You should do something about that." This will set up later adventures like #4 nicely and it rewards player initiative and interaction with the game world.
2. Snark: "Last I checked, the Vikings didn't find that every community that they raided had walls, a moat, and a significant armed force. Nope. Most small communities were ripe for the plucking. Like Sandpoint is... right now."
What I'm having more of a problem with is my players arguing with me over "inconsistencies" in the game world. These consistencies are more of an issue because one of my players keeps wanting to fit everything into the little box that is medieval Europe. Specifically he was complaining that Sandpoint didn't have more guards and defenses because it's on the coast south of Riddleport, like some pirate ship is going to attack a town a day's travel from Magnimar. Any tips on how to nip that in the butt other than constantly saying "it's a fantasy game"?
As for player tactics: I'd say let them try different approaches like smoking the NPCs out of Thistletop. This is the best reason to play RPGs: you can do things that aren't necessarily planned for. Of course, it is more work for the GM, but in most cases it is worth it.
As for fantasy/medieval Europe, I would take your player's cues for more realism, if that's what he wants. Fantasy can be a tool in your arsenal of explanations, but it isn't always the root cause.
In the example of not enough troops in Sandpoint:
The forums actually have a complete list of full-time garrison employees and their patrol schedule. It takes time to raise a militia, and the goblin attack was a surprise. I also played it up as an inside job in my camapign.
In the example of pirates not attacking Sandpoint:
In other words: why would pirates attack Sandpoint when it is one of their only channels for selling their stolen goods back to Magnimar?
Of course, this has interesting implications once Tsuto kills him, unless Ameiko picks up the illicit reigns thereafter.
There are times where you have to fight the player, like if they are demanding things behave like a low-magic setting, and that's not what you're after. But sometimes, they are just giving you an unconscious hint that they want more realism in their fantasy.
The dwarf ranger in my group took her out with one critical from a musket (from the PFCS) and rolled max, so he got add another die to the damage. We were also using the critical hit deck and he drew one that did triple damage... needless to say she died real quick from that lucky shot.
What I'm having more of a problem with is my players arguing with me over "inconsistencies" in the game world. These consistencies are more of an issue because one of my players keeps wanting to fit everything into the little box that is medieval Europe. Specifically he was complaining that Sandpoint didn't have more guards and defenses because it's on the coast south of Riddleport, like some pirate ship is going to attack a town a day's travel from Magnimar. Any tips on how to nip that in the butt other than constantly saying "it's a fantasy game"?
Previous posters offered several possible reasons for Sandpoint not to worry about piracy, but why don't they have a larger guard force? The obvious story reason is because such a force would detract from the PCs' role as local heroes, but some people won't want to suspend disbelief to that extent. If you felt that such a force has to exist, it's likely that the locals depend overmuch on their levy for defense. The tale begins in autumn, when many such troops would have been dismissed so they could harvest crops and otherwise prepare for winter.
In a medieval culture, surprise attacks were rare. The vikings achieved tactical surprise due to the mobility of their drakkar longships, but more often, towns had weeks to prepare before an attack arrived. The existence of magical communications accentuates this tendency: Any large incoming force is likely reported long before they arrive to attack. Later in the AP, a group of raiders demonstrates this: Even though the force is quite small, some people suspect an incoming attack days before it hits.
Please allow me an anecdote... When I lived in New England, local roads were always plowed, no matter how severe the snow. In New Jersey, many local roads were not plowed at all. Why not? They thought they could get by without allocating the resources needed.
This logic could also apply to Sandpoint: "We have some troops and could levy more if needed; besides that, Magnimar is just four days march away. What do we need to pay a large garrison for?"
...how long have your players been playing D&D3rd Edition?
Players who are unfamiliar with the concept of DR could get royally mauled, while long-time players could have long-since learned to prepare for such occurrences, and have it not even be an issue.
If your players aren't used to dealing with DR, coach them through the value of knowledge skills, using that as an opportunity to teach them about DR as well.
I sent my PCs on a small side-quest: Among the loot they found was a stout birdcage wrought of cold iron . The bard used her whip to knock the quasit from the air, then the party grappled her. Once she was grappled, another PC beat her to death with the birdcage.
My group had few problems with Erylium.
Their first trip in they were able to determine what she was. They visited the sage and determined what harmed her (cold iron). They purchased or had cold iron weapons commissioned at the weaponsmith.
The actual assault was a mixed bag. Erylium was ready for them and had summoned up a couple of advanced sin-spawn (I used tbug's sin-spawn barbarian stat block) and a monstrous fiendish centipede. The party did really well against the sin-spawn with some lucky critical hits. The centipede went down pretty quickly and did little damage. Erylium was sort of a background annoyance during most of the early combat though she did manage to get off her fear spell and cause half the party to flee. After they had dealt with the sin-spawn it took the party a total of three rounds to off Erylium. Again it was a combination of good luck on the part of the party with three critical hits. She did manage to shatter the barbarian's greatsword, but his cold-iron bladed long spear made short work of her.
The most amusing part was when the rest of the party returned and the dwarf fighter became enraged messing with the Runewell and turned on the party. It required the remainder of their capabilities to stun and drop him.
CJ
As for player tactics: I'd say let them try different approaches like smoking the NPCs out of Thistletop. This is the best reason to play RPGs: you can do things that aren't necessarily planned for. Of course, it is more work for the GM, but in most cases it is worth it.
As for fantasy/medieval Europe, I would take your player's cues for more realism, if that's what he wants. Fantasy can be a tool in your arsenal of explanations, but it isn't always the root cause.
I'm fine with them doing different approaches, however, I'm not going to play my npcs as stupid. If they plan on waiting out the npcs, they're going to end up facing them all at once. That means 20 some odd globlins, a fighter, wizard, monk/rogue, and 2 clerics. If this isn't a recipe for TPK I don't know what is. My group, specifically one member likes to stop and plan everything out. This works fine most of the time, but there are instances where you need to go in and fight, thinking comes later. I dropped a lot of hints that they needed to deal with this threat immediately.
As for realism, I know my one particular player likes things to be realistic, but he's far too stuck in his historical mind set. We play DnD because it's not realistic. Plus, more realism can be a recipe for lots of player kills. When this player ran Age of Worms he ran it realistically. Because of this our characters constantly felt like we had aboslutely no time to stop and think, plan, or even loot. As a result we have a group of players that are about as geared as level 5 players should be.
I want to steer him away from this obsessesion that the game world HAS to be like medieval Europe because he believes it should be. I do have other players to think about, not to mention my own sanity when I try to make things more realistic and they're not realistic enough to suit his tastes.
For me, part of the fun in this is guiding the PCs through a brand new world with it's own history. I don't want to change everything to fit a carbon copy of history, because that would make things utterly boring for everyone.
It is known that Lonjiku Kaijutsu has had a long-standing agreement with smugglers and the Sczarni to use his tunnels and going as far as disposing bodies. It is possible that he has an arrangement with one of these criminal entities, including possibly pirates, that keeps the town of Sandpoint safe from other attacks.
In other words: why would pirates attack Sandpoint when it is one of their only channels for selling their stolen goods back to Magnimar?
This is a very good suggestion. And I think about a lot of things like this in my own head. However, a lot of information why people do things is knowledge that the PC's are not privy to. One of the points that I had to make to them is that they are playing their characters, not themselves. As such, they need to think about what their characters know and stop metagaming.
I'm fine with them doing different approaches, however, I'm not going to play my npcs as stupid. If they plan on waiting out the npcs, they're going to end up facing them all at once. That means 20 some odd globlins, a fighter, wizard, monk/rogue, and 2 clerics. If this isn't a recipe for TPK I don't know what is. My group, specifically one member likes to stop and plan everything out. This works fine most of the time, but there are instances where you need to go in and fight, thinking comes later. I dropped a lot of hints that they needed to deal with this threat immediately.
While I'd ensure they had the fight of their lives, I wouldn't hit them with a fully coordinated attack. There are several reasons for this:
In the first place, coordinating goblin attacks has to be a planner's worst nightmare. Can you imagine the heartburn the original surprise assault on Sandpoint must have required?
Additionally, they're still building their alliances. Some of the goblin force is likely to wander off in search of additional aid.
Finally, the villains have multiple objectives. If they send their full force after a party of adventurers, they leave themselves open to attacks from other angles. The goblins wouldn't want to lose their cool lair to another tribe because they didn't leave it well-guarded while chasing the adventurers. (Not all the local humanoid tribes are on the same sheet of music, as an example, the bugbears haven't signed on with Nualia yet.)
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after a while, I would have the gobs take out the tentemort and use the water to get behind the PCs - maybe they hear of another raid by the Sheylu - maybe a forgetful group of goblins comes through on the way home from the raid with the sign from the inn and Zanthus' holy symbol. The Pcs know there are tunnels and that the goblins know there are tunnels.. if the goblins arn't threatened by the PCs pressance(and they did make the bridge trap, so it's noot like they didn't prepare for being followed) their lives would go on as normal. maybe after a scouting party or two doesn't come back, they cut the bridge down altogether, or make it even weaker during the night
While I'd ensure they had the fight of their lives, I wouldn't hit them with a fully coordinated attack. There are several reasons for this:
In the first place, coordinating goblin attacks has to be a planner's worst nightmare. Can you imagine the heartburn the original surprise assault on Sandpoint must have required?
Additionally, they're still building their alliances. Some of the goblin force is likely to wander off in search of additional aid.
Finally, the villains have multiple objectives. If they send their full force after a party of adventurers, they leave themselves open to attacks from other angles. The goblins wouldn't want to lose their cool lair to another tribe because they didn't leave it well-guarded while chasing the adventurers. (Not all the local humanoid tribes are on the same sheet of music, as an example, the bugbears haven't signed on with Nualia yet.)
My guess is that they are going to wait on the other side of the bridge for awhile, not necessarily go back to town. Goblins may be stupid, but they're not stupid enough to attack over the bridge, especially if you have Nualia standing over them with a whip telling them what to do. I actually managed to plan it all out. If they wait 5 minutes that is not enough time for a goblin to go down and alert Nualia and her other human companions. However it's enough to get most of the goblins in the throne room with Ripnugget. They will still have to deal with Nualia and her gang together in the lower levels, but it's not as bad as if the 4 goblins+goblin dogs outside, as well as ALL the goblins inside end up in the same place. However, if they wait long enough then all of the goblins will be in the throne room. I"ll have the Quasit flying around figuring out where they plan on going with a few doors open so that way she can fly around and alert Ripnugget. If they go straight down the stairs then the goblins can come up behind them. All of Nualia's gang will be in room D15.
Now if they wait over night, then I'm going to have the Quasit fly out and cast "Command" on whoever happens to be on guard and make them walk off a cliff if they're close to one. Of course that also depends on where they camp.
If they wait even longer then I plan on having Nualia figure out the door that leads to Malfeshnekor and send someone to Magnimar to buy a scroll of "Anti Magic Field" so she can free it. Then the fun will really ensue.