In 3E an energy drain attack only gives a -1 to everything and reduced spellcasting. The PC only loses a level if they fail a Fort save a day later. Generally they only get messed up if they have a lot of negative levels. I have never had a big balance issue with the few undead that give negative levels. (Then again, age of worms excluded, I seldom focus a campaign around undead)
Take energy drain away from some monsters and they go away. What's a wight without energy drain? A ghoul. What's a wraith without energy drain? A shadow.
I think energy drain is important in the same way black puddings are important, PCs fear reduction of abilities (or gear) more than hit points. Energy drain makes PCs respect their foes, something that is rare in a lot of (non-horror) games. That is something I am willing to risk on bad fortitude saves.
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..the current house rule we use, which is the permanent loss of 1 HD (not CON, just the HP). Since HD represent a mix of things, but abstractly are supposed to represent vitality and health to a greater or lesser degree, it made sense, and has worked pretty well so far. And is pretty darn scary without completely nerfing/annoying the PCs.
I like this idea. Given how rare level-drain is these days 1HD seems about right. And I guarantee it'll scare the players more than losing a level. I mean, you can get a lost level back (eventually) but a lost HD is gone forever.
In my current campaign the party were roughly 22nd/23rd level and came upon some burning undead who set the party rogue alight. When he realised that a failed Fort save meant the loss of about 5 HP you should have seen him scramble to look for bonuses. In the end he made it (just) but the look of terror on his face was priceless!
Agreed, the concept of Energy Drains is good, and the current rules of -1 on all rolls/negative level works really well for simulating weakness due to loss of life force.
However, losing a level permanently is just...wrong. Nothing about a "level" to me says life force. Not sure what to replace it with as permanent loss, and some undead at the least SHOULD have a permanent effect from their powers if your save is failed.
What that should be though, is something I have wrestled with since 2e. Our groups have run the gamut from the rules as is, which most folks hated, to stat loss, permanently taking the -1 on all rolls (that was a TON of work to keep straight though), and the current house rule we use, which is the permanent loss of 1 HD (not CON, just the HP). Since HD represent a mix of things, but abstractly are supposed to represent vitality and health to a greater or lesser degree, it made sense, and has worked pretty well so far. And is pretty darn scary without completely nerfing/annoying the PCs.
We basically use this (bolded text above). If you fail the Fort save after gaining negative levels you are stuck with the negative level for the remainder of the current level you are in. Next time you gain a level you lose all permanent negative levels you have as well as gaining your new level.
It's not that hard to keep track of. Pretty much take a -1 on everything, have 5 less hit points, and don't get one spell of your highest level.
I'd definitely like to see that overhaul! As it stands, I actually get rid of energy drain for most creatures, replacing it with ability drain, aging, or hp transfer As these are all far easier to understand "real world" than XP loss. Vampires do Con damage with their bite--I've never understood why they'd have an energy drain slam anyway. For wights, I'm thinking they might deal Dex damage, and actually gain an AC/Init bonus from the drain as it revitalizes their atrophied muscles. Note that wraiths already deal Con damage rather than energy drain.
I'd definitely like to see that overhaul! As it stands, I actually get rid of energy drain for most creatures, replacing it with ability drain, aging, or hp transfer As these are all far easier to understand "real world" than XP loss. Vampires do Con damage with their bite--I've never understood why they'd have an energy drain slam anyway. For wights, I'm thinking they might deal Dex damage, and actually gain an AC/Init bonus from the drain as it revitalizes their atrophied muscles. Note that wraiths already deal Con damage rather than energy drain.
All good points. We used to replace "negative levels" with Con damage (save at end or drain), and that worked out just fine for us as well.
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I think you lot are too nice to your players! Either that or I'm a real bar steward. Hmm. I just love the fear engendered by the level loss undead and actually still use the straight level loss from previous editions (though I give them teh fort save now - ah, I can't be all bad!) It's one of the few times my groupw ill scramble over each otehr to get out of an encounter. Great to see.
Whatever is done to change this needs to keep the PC's scared of these beasties, otehrwise you've just removed a whole set of great, powerful, iconic monsters.
I've actually found ability drain far scarier than energy drain. A few solid hits from a Con draining creature can end a fight quickly. The down-side to ability drain is the ripple effect into other areas--saving throws, HP, skill checks, etc.