Kobold Press
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Mild Spoilers (But if you weren't ready for them, you shouldn't be reading any of these threads)
If a DM was willing to, what other allies or help could the PCs aquire? I'm think that the Midgard dwarves should be willing to make a really good weapon or some fine armor for the anvil the PCs recover from Redfang. Or at least get a good discount on something. Beyond that, I'm a bit stumped on who would be crazy enough (or hate Demogorgon enough) to lend overt help. Any ideas are welcome!
Also, what about attacking Demogorgon's army, allies, and weakening him personlly?
Lastly, Baur, this is a superb adventure! James, those stat blocks scare me! Thanks and Applause to both of you.
Glad you like it!
The Midgard dwarves are a good call; they'd certainly set up the party with something, though time is the limiting factor.
As for other options: depends on your campaign timeframe and style, but I think that the Archdukes of Hell would certainly be *willing* to strike at Demogorgon. Their aid would be complicated by the ongoing war. And the Demon Lords wouldn't take well to interference by their hated enemies.
Among other demons: It sure would be interesting if Pale Night, the Mother of Demons, could be talked around. Maybe an "it's time for a change" argument and.... I have no idea what could convince her, actually.
I'm sure Iggwilv could also suggest some Lawful and Good allies. Whether Bahamut can be convinced to show up, and cooperate with an ally like Orcus, is another matter. It's probably smart to just draw from a few planes. The upside of Bahamut is that if your PCs are weighted toward Lawful Good they might not buy the "enemy of my enemy" approach to alliances.
Oh, and there will DEFINITELY be attacks on Demogorgon's army, allies, and so on in the final installment. Details on that in 30 days from Greg Vaughn.
Here's one that would probably be open to the idea of helping, if approached properly. Inevitables. Head to Mechanus and start using logic and reason to recruit a squad of zelekhuts, maruts, and kolyaruts. The kolyaruts punish oath-breakers, and Demogorgon's forces have certainly broken their share of promises. Maruts will be tougher; they kill those who try to cheat death, which would make things hard for Orcus's army. Zelekhuts go after those who deny justice and avoid punishment, which definitely fits with Demogorgon's track-record.
By far, the maruts are the most powerful, so you'd want to put extra effort into getting them on your side.
It's not a perfect answer, though. They'd be hindered somewhat going to a chaos-dominant plane, and the forces from the Court of Stars certainly wouldn't approve of such a measure.
Creative Director
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Yeah... the last adventure is pretty much half about War on Gaping Maw, so never fear! The adventure itself doesn't quite go into the mechanics of mass battles (since D&D doesn't handle that well, alas) but it's certainly mass battle enabled!
As for other allies to enlist... Graz'zt is the one who comes to mind as someone else. We just didn't have room in the adventure to include him, and Wolf nicely set him up with a reason why he probably can't help (see "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits") but that doesn't mean that he can't be a resource in your campaign.
Keep in mind, though, that you don't want to go TOOO crazy with the allies. The PCs are sort of on a timer at this point, and on top of that, you don't want to put off getting to Prince of Demons forever, do ya? :-)
The ideas for other allies are good, but probably better as alternates or substitutes rather than additional allies or it will seem like overkill. But if you have lawful good paladins in the party that cannot ally with Orcus, then at least the adventure makes it relatively easy to imagine how to substitute similar allies along the same lines after facing challenges of similar nature and equivalent difficulty.
I honestly don't see any difficulty for paladins or even exalted characters in these scenarios. The background about Tharizdun makes it pretty clear that ALL the gods worked together to imprison him. This implies that Heironeous, St. Cuthbert, and Pelor worked in conjunction with deities like Erythnul, Hextor, and Vecna. No problems here. "It's for the greater good".
I don't see any remotely playable interpretation of Paladin alignment restrictions that would be triggered by the dealing with Orcus. The deal is a simple cease-fire that is restricted to one particular location for an extremely limited time period. Orcus isn't providing the PCs with an honor guard of death giants. Orcus isn't providing the paladin with His Profane Blessing. Orcus isn't accepting boons or sacrifices. Were not directly attacking evil sufficient reason for a paladin to fall, then paladins would invariably either fall or die shortly after they made the casual acquaintance of a non-evil person with Plane Shift, assuming they somehow made it that far at all.
And come on. It isn't like the PCs are pledging their souls to Orcus, or acquiring a sacrifice of primeval power to offer up in His Name.
Actually, I though that Malconthet's real might be a bigger issue . . . it seems to be intimated that some of the participants might not be willing, and some are being devoured while they are distracted. Then again, if all of the beings involved are petitioners, the paladin might not feel he can do anything for a soul that has been given its "just reward."
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And come on. It isn't like the PCs are pledging their souls to Orcus, or acquiring a sacrifice of primeval power to offer up in His Name.
you are a still a bit sore about Wells of Darkness, aren't you ? *grin*
Can't see a problem with allying with old orcus either, unless one has some very viscious and devoted undead-slayers around....
Friend of mine (his group is quite abit ahead in the STAP) has a (lg) demon-wrecker ("expedition-spiderwebs" PrCl ) in his group, and that guy is actually arguing that they forge as great an alliance as possble, and then interrupt internal strategy to maximize demonic casualties ! Absolutely machiavellian...
If a DM was willing to, what other allies or help could the PCs aquire?
Maybe Camazotz/Zotzilaha, since the PCs already have a relationship of sorts with him.
Perhaps you could introduce a few lesser allies, but use them as a "meanwhile" side quest. Basically, an interlude between the beginning of the assault on Demogorgon and the final battle with Big D.
It's highly unlikely that the PCs will be the only people active in the war; might be nice to give the players a glimpse into the parts of the war the PCs don't participate in. The DM runs "standard" units of Demogorgon's army, while the players take the roles of some of the PC's lesser allies in the war. Maybe have two or three scenarios: one they should be able to win, one they shouldn't, and one that's even odds. Penalize or reward the players in the final fight based on how many successful scenarios they completed.
('Course, for all we know, this is already a part of the final adventure...)
Just another thought: If the deal with Orcus falls through then your army lacks any real ground power besides Gwyn's troops. Who could help in such a case? Simplest answer is berserkers and vikings from Valhalla. It's a short stop once they've made it to the Yggdrasil, and the petitioners of Ysgard are certainly willing to throw their lot into a battle which could potentially end the world!
~ Bryon ~
Rather than add more enemies I suggest adding more preperation quests. More allies muddy the waters a bit and adds more record keeping. Plus it doesn't sit well that you can get a bunch of demons to fight together or demons+ angels etc. Adding more preperation along the lines of need item X to defeat Demo's super weapon Y or penetrate his invulnerable fortress Z can add more epic feel to the task with out rallying the entire universe against this one threat.
Someone mentioned the Lords of Hell. I would be very careful of any PC group going there for the first time this late in the game. Last minute deals with devils never turn out well.
That said, something as big as the savage tide might already have attracted diabolical attention. and the lords of the nine would have a vested interest in stopping it. I also suspect they would probably prefer demogorgon survive the inicident, as having a self-sabotaging maniac at the top of the abyssal heap helps keep more organized players (like, say, Grazzt) from getting too much influence - but stopping the Tide is the more important objective. However, the blood war being what it is, the Devils would have to be subtle (and perhaps a bit convoluted) in any direct response - and, happily, subtle and convoluted are what devils do best.
In my campaign, one of the PCs is an undercover diabolical agent helping the team combat "demonic interference on the Isle of Dread" - but (1) that isn't an option that works with every group of players and (2) it should be established pretty early in the AP in order to be effective. Other options might include planting an intelligent, diabolic magic item in a treasure heap, a "turned" hireling or henchman providing unexpected help in a real jam, casually suggesting the LN party member check out the nifty feats in Fiendish Codex II, or even a party of LE-LN-NE adventurers showing up once or twice as they tail the party. If the hells haven't made a move in your game yet and you're just getting to scuttlecove or divided's ire, both are great places for Hell to "pick up the scent" - just don't over do it. By keeping a low profile, the devils can get their due without wrecking the AP.
If a DM was willing to, what other allies or help could the PCs aquire? I'm think that the Midgard dwarves should be willing to make a really good weapon or some fine armor for the anvil the PCs recover from Redfang. Or at least get a good discount on something. Beyond that, I'm a bit stumped on who would be crazy enough (or hate Demogorgon enough) to lend overt help. Any ideas are welcome!Also, what about attacking Demogorgons allies? ...
Oh, I don't know...how about *any good force on the face of Oerth*!! Just a shot in the dark there. ;)
Seriously. Who *wouldn't* help? The fate of the ENTIRE world of greyhawk is at stake...and the writers want to tell me that the deities, quasi-deities and demigods, not to mention the dragons, ki-rin, coatl, and other good-aligned NPC's would just sit back and say "Huh? Oh that...uh, well, we'd really like to help but it's not our problem. You see...oh, hey, is that the time? Sorry! Gotta run!". C'mon! You have to be some kind of moron to accept that. No chance in H-E-doublehockeysticks would that happen. The PC's are the 'front line' in this assault, of course. They will 'hold back' Demo and his right-tentacles...but then the other good guys would strike at all the little hangers-on. The little guys of Demo would be wiped out, certainly, and the actual chances of Demo's plan succeeding is pretty much nil. There would likely be some significant damage done, and all around the Densac Gulf, and maybe even into the Azure Sea, would be the equivalent of a magical-toxic-oil spill. Not good at all. But "Haha! I destroyed the entire world of Greyhawk! POOF! Hahaha...now I'm a god!". LOL! Nope. Not gonna happen. Period. Even if the PC's sit back and do absolutely nothing.
For sake of argument, lets say Demo succeeds in becoming a god. Guess what? At that exact moment he becomes tied to the "Godly pact" (not sure exactly what it's called). You know, the one where deities aren't allowed to interfere directly in world affairs? Yeah, that pesky little condition of godhood. At that point, the gods of Greyhawk look at Demo, point, and say "Go to the corner! Bad evil god! Bad!". And the clean up begins.
I mean, the general premise of the AP is ok...but the result is, uh, sorry to put it this way, about as well though out as square-tires. Then again, I am not the DM, so I only have gut instinct and little spoilers I happened upon. Maybe Demo only needs to affect "X number of people in X number of square miles". But I get the feeling it's was probably stated that the Savage Tide "rips across all the Flannaes turning every living thing into gibbering, slobbering, exploding acid-monkeys"...and that's just stupid. All IMHO, of course.
anyway, why not allow a vast coalition of 20+ different armies... just that some will then backstab... and it will still run much like before, just a LOT MORE corpses and a even more chaotic battleground! ;)
Hey, who was the crazy one telling you to trust chaotic forces?
Orcus just might be dangling the skull of morviels favorite ex-servant....
Besides there will be more to loot too, so its not exactly railroading either.