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So I finally finished really reading the Lightless Depths. Maybe I missed something but whats the point of destroying the tear? If I understand correctly this floods the cavern and awkens the aboleths. I understand that the aboleths and kopru hate each other but why would the shadow pearl production stop. Whats Demogorgons relationship with the aboleths, that would preclude such a relationship?
They hate each other, and in the water the aboleths will win a fight between the two, what with their arbitrarily large numbers of skum shock troopers and superior personal might. Worse yet, there are already dozens or hundreds of aboleth in the city, just waiting to start killing kopru as soon as they can swim again. If the kopru don't move fast to eliminate these aboleth, the kopru won't make it out in time.
So just destroying the Tear is good enough to shut down production. The aboleth will undoubtedly use the bilewretch for something horrible, but at least Demogorgon's kopru can't use it. Invading the pyramid and killing the inhabitants is just a bonus, since it picks off one of Demogorgon's vulnerable minions so he can't reinforce the plateau later on and denies access to the bilewretch to everybody rather than just the kopru.
Destroying the bilewretch also denies that to everybody, but the kopru have an impressive advantage of numbers and good supply lines that mean they can replace their members and acquire magic supplies. Additionally, destroying the bilewretch alone doesn't help much against the plotting of the Neh-Thalggu, which in several decades will rip open a rift to the Far Realm, leaving the entire region of the Isle of Dread vulnerable to the now CR 27 monstrosity's whim.
Its meant to get the PCs in the mind of "lesser of two evils". If anyone has Dungeoneering, let them remember that aboleth operate on vastly larger timescales than humanoids. They probably won't even look to the surface until after a few thousand years or so.
And the Aboleth pay no homage to demogorgon. In fact, Aboleth are the least likely to work for a demon lord or god, because they remember existance before them, and so see them as nothing more than "something new". The Prince of Demons looses a big part of his material plane power if they get to move in.
Yeah they only pay tribute to Elder Evils from the Far Realm, no worries....
Its meant to get the PCs in the mind of "lesser of two evils". If anyone has Dungeoneering, let them remember that aboleth operate on vastly larger timescales than humanoids. They probably won't even look to the surface until after a few thousand years or so.
And the Aboleth pay no homage to demogorgon. In fact, Aboleth are the least likely to work for a demon lord or god, because they remember existance before them, and so see them as nothing more than "something new". The Prince of Demons looses a big part of his material plane power if they get to move in.
Their are too many kopru's protecting the Bile Wretch. Destroying the tear and flooding the chamber (which takes hours), distracts the kopru's so that the PCs can get inside to deal with the bilewretch. There's a couple other threads dealing with this already.
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Their are too many kopru's protecting the Bile Wretch. Destroying the tear and flooding the chamber (which takes hours), distracts the kopru's so that the PCs can get inside to deal with the bilewretch. There's a couple other threads dealing with this already.
Cool, could you point me out to them Id like to take a look.
Creative Director
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It's also in there to give more than one solution to the adventure. The BEST solution is to destroy the tear and then destroy the bilewretch, since this disrupts the shadow pearls AND prevents the brain collector from doing what it's gonna do AND distracts the kopru forces enough so that it's the safest route for the PCs to handle.
You could certainly just destroy the tear and let the aboleth take over; that's good enough to go on with the adventure. Likewise, just killing the koprus and the bilewretch works. Neither of these routes are as safe to tackle or really the best choices for the Isle's long-term "health."
So yeah... not everything in the adventure is required to be dealt with. There's a certain amount of choice the PCs have on how they want to solve the adventrue. You'll see this design philosophy popping up in "Serpents of Scuttlecove" and "Into the Maw" as well.
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Creative Director
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Yup; check the stats for the kopru behemoths. They have potions of fly. That gives them more than enough mobility to challenge PCs. The kopru mooks are a non issue, which is why the adventure as written spends so little time dealing with them and focuses more on teh behemoths, the kopru cleric, the bilewretch, and the brain collector.
Of course, if it really bothers you that much, just change it so that the koprus have a land speed of 20 or 30 feet. If I were updating them from the original Isle of Dread today for the game, I certainly would have gone in a different direction than the Monster Manual II (which has a lot of poor design choices in it); I would have made them faster, would have restored their resistance/immunity to fire, and would have made them aberrations, for one...
Yup; check the stats for the kopru behemoths. They have potions of fly. That gives them more than enough mobility to challenge PCs. The kopru mooks are a non issue, which is why the adventure as written spends so little time dealing with them and focuses more on teh behemoths, the kopru cleric, the bilewretch, and the brain collector.
Of course, if it really bothers you that much, just change it so that the koprus have a land speed of 20 or 30 feet. If I were updating them from the original Isle of Dread today for the game, I certainly would have gone in a different direction than the Monster Manual II (which has a lot of poor design choices in it); I would have made them faster, would have restored their resistance/immunity to fire, and would have made them aberrations, for one...
Would love to see your version of kopru !
If I were updating them from the original Isle of Dread today for the game, I certainly would have gone in a different direction than the Monster Manual II (which has a lot of poor design choices in it); I would have made them faster, would have restored their resistance/immunity to fire, and would have made them aberrations, for one...
Consider this Yoinked. I'm upping their land speed to 20', adding Immunity to Fire, and changing their type.
I'm bandying about the idea of adding Spell Resistance also and perhaps upping their base CR by 1 for the changes.
Spell resistance should be too much I think, I don't remenber it was part of the original kopru. Should check.
But by making it an aberration, it will lose some bab and ref save.
Spell resistance should be too much I think, I don't remenber it was part of the original kopru. Should check.
But by making it an aberration, it will lose some bab and ref save.
I have the PDF of X1 (which I bought right here at paizo.com), and in the kopru's description it states "Kopru have a +2 bonus on their saving
throws against magical attacks."It has been a long time since I ran with original Red Box D&D, so I don't recall all the specifics of what kinds of saving throws there are, what constitutes a "magical attack" etc. I suppose that could be applied directly (just a straight up bonus to saves when magic is involved), but somehow it seems more in the spirit of 3.e to have Spell Resistance - perhaps something a bit lower than the standard CR+11 formula presented in the MM
I did note the BAB and Reflex changes - that's part of what was pushing me down the Spell Resistance route. I've got some time to think about it, though.
I have the PDF of X1 (which I bought right here at paizo.com), and in the kopru's description it states "Kopru have a +2 bonus on their saving
throws against magical attacks."It has been a long time since I ran with original Red Box D&D, so I don't recall all the specifics of what kinds of saving throws there are, what constitutes a "magical attack" etc. I suppose that could be applied directly (just a straight up bonus to saves when magic is involved), but somehow it seems more in the spirit of 3.e to have Spell Resistance - perhaps something a bit lower than the standard CR+11 formula presented in the MM
I did note the BAB and Reflex changes - that's part of what was pushing me down the Spell Resistance route. I've got some time to think about it, though.
Indeed, their save bonus on magical attacks should be compared to the one of the dwarf.
As for CR, a lot of monsters don't follow the CR+11 formula for SR. Some have CR+6 or 8. So you could eventually make it like that. But if it's too lower, it won't be of great use, and a bonus on saves like dwarf or drow should be better.
Maybe you could add a bonus feat of two.
Just copy-cat the dwarf resistance to magic, solves the problem.
Indeed, their save bonus on magical attacks should be compared to the one of the dwarf.As for CR, a lot of monsters don't follow the CR+11 formula for SR. Some have CR+6 or 8. So you could eventually make it like that. But if it's too lower, it won't be of great use, and a bonus on saves like dwarf or drow should be better.
Maybe you could add a bonus feat of two.
D'oh! So obvious. It's been awhile since I played a Dwarf - I kind of forgot about that one. The redesign continues....
D'oh! So obvious. It's been awhile since I played a Dwarf - I kind of forgot about that one. The redesign continues....
^^
Don't hesitate to post your version when it's done.
Don't hesitate to post your version when it's done.
This has been back burnered lately, but it's been a REALLY slow day at work. So without any further ado, I present my revised ideas of the Kopru:
KOPRU - CR 7
Always CE Medium Aberration (Aquatic)
Init+2; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Listen +7, Spot +7
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14
(+2 Dex, +4 Natural)
hp 55(10d8+10)
Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +7; +2 racial bonus against Spells and Spell-like Effects
Immune Fire
OFFENSE
Spd 20 ft., Swim 50 ft
Melee Tail Slap +9 (1d6+3) and
Claw +7 (1d4+1) and
Claw +7 (1d4+1) and
Bite +7 (1d4+1)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Constrict 3d6+4, Dominate Person (DC 16), Improved Grab
TACTICS
Before Combat Koprus attempt to use their Dominate Person ability at distance to gain a foothold within a party before attacking. Koprus also prefer to maintain a stable of enthralled slaves they are more than willing to throw against an assault.
During Combat Koprus much prefer fighting in the water, but regardless of environment their preferred offense is their Tail Slap and Constriction. If taken unawares a kopru will most likely attempt to Dominate the most threatening melee opponent as soon as it is possible to gain an ally for the fight.
Morale Kopru are somewhat cowardly. Once they are reduced to half their hit points they will generally attempt to make an escape unless the battle is very much in their favor.
STATISTICS
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; Grp +17
Feats Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Ability Focus (Dominate Person), Improved Toughness
Skills Escape Artist +12, Listen +7, Move Silently +11, Search +8, Spot +7, Swim +11
Languages Aquan, Common
SQ Amphibious, Darkvision 60 ft, Immunity to Fire, Resistance to Magic
Treasure Standard coins (gold and platinum only), standard goods (gems only), no items
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Amphibious (Ex): Although Kopru are Aquatic, they can remain out of water indefinitely.
Constrict (Ex): With a successful grapple check, a kopru can constrict a grabbed opponent, dealing 3d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage.
Dominate Person (Su): Once per day, a kopru can produce an effect like that of a dominate person spell (caster level 10th;Will save DC 16), except that the range is 180 feet and the duration is eight days.
Improved Grab (Ex): If a kopru hits an opponent that is its own size or smaller with a tail attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity (grapple bonus +17, including a +8 racial bonus on grapple checks). If it gets a hold, it also constricts in the same round. Thereafter, the kopru has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use its tails to hold the opponent (–20 penalty on grapple check, but the kopru is not considered grappled). In either case, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals tail and constrict damage.
Resistance to Magic (Ex): Koprus gain a +2 racial bonus to Saving Throws against Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Many generations ago, the koprus built a large and mysterious civilization under the sea. For unknown reasons their society declined, becoming ever more decrepit and degenerate, until now almost none of its former glory remains. Kopru society is matriarchal and savage. The monsters live in underwater caves, often near the sites of their ancient, ruined cities. But these reminders of their former glory only serve to increase their bitterness. Koprus relish heat, and often settle near deep-sea volcanic vents or in underground hot springs.
A kopru resembles no known creature, but it combines several familiar features into one monstrous whole. Its body is vaguely eel-like but ends in three long, flexible, barbed tails. Its chest is nearly human, and the hands on its two arms end in vicious webbed claws. Its head grows directly from its trunk, like a fish’s, and has large, unblinking eyes. The mouth is surrounded by four tentacles—an oddity that has led some scholars to propose that the koprus may somehow be related to mind flayers. Koprus speak Common and Aquan.
A kopru in water is a ferocious opponent in melee combat. Along with its claws and teeth, it lashes out with its tails, all three of which strike as one. On land, Kopru are much more ponderous. A Kopru can rise up on its eel like tail and can propel itself by throwing loops of its tail in the direction it wishes to move – much like a sidewinder. Despite its relative clumsiness on land, a kopru’s tail can still strike with blinding speed – potentially grappling its target with its Improved Grab ability.