Having just started Life's Bazaar with my group (3rd session was last thursday and they just finished the meeting with Jenya for the job offer) and I have run into the first thing I would change now that I am looking back.
One of the things I have really wanted to push with this group is investigation, using skills for things other than combat, etc. etc. They were off to a very good start in this direction, but then they got the riddle. It didn't take them long to really focus in on the locks, check the orphanage locks and are going to be headed to Ghelve's first thing next session.
So things are right on track for the adventure, right? No. What that means is that the PCs aren't going to investigate rumors, check on other kidnap victims, or research the history of the town (jzadirune or look for how they can get into the malachite hold). There is a LOT of info they are going to miss.
This group WOULD have done all those things, but they are too perceptive. I really doubt they will get to Ghelve's and miss what is going on there. I will try and play things out so they do and do more investigating, but if I do that I will also have to think of a way to get them back to Ghelve's later and look for something further.
If I could do it all over again, I would have Jenya tell them she is willing to use the mace the ceremony preperations will take a day and the ceremony itself another day. In the meantime they could have been out investigating and gathering clues and history.
There is really good background material in this campaign and I think it is shame to waste it by hitting the PCs with a hammer clue so they don't need to go looking for it.
Sean Mahoney
I recall having similar feelings. I don't like to railroad my players as well, which on the outset seems difficult when running a pre-set adventure path.
In order to encourage the players to explore other options, I would sometimes (usually at the request of the players themselves) remind them of the leads that they have discovered. In two extreme situations, I actually gave them ideas on how to follow-up on several of the leads.
At the time, the players seemed to be at a loss of what to do next, and they were hoping for me to say "Go visit Jenya" or something. I think we had been away from the game for a couple of weeks, and that had contributed to their little dilema.
One of the things I have really wanted to push with this group is investigation, using skills for things other than combat, etc.
Honestly, if that's the type of campaign you wanted, you chose poorly. The AP is all about
1. Getting the "errand" or quest
2. Going to the dungeon where the McGuffin is
3. Killing everything in said dungeon
4. Returning with the McGuffin
5. Getting the reward
6. Repeat 1-5
I'm not saying that's not fun or the campaign isn't done well, but that's essentially what it is. Most of the modules start with Jenya or someone else telling the PC's to go do some chore. The AP is all about back-to-basics dungeon-crawling.
I am not saying that the riddle itself is bad or that you shouldn't use tools to guide the adventurers on to the next step in the campaign, that is absolutely necessary in many cases. I am saying that I made a mistake in thinking that the riddle was the catalyst of the adventure when I had already set up through background and role-playing more than enough info for the the PCs to start a successfull investigation. As it turns out they might have even gotten to Ghelve's on their own... but I didn't give them the chance.
The point of the post was simply to warn other DMs starting the campaign that I would hold off on the riddle for just a little bit after they are hired to complete the quest. Give them the chance to investigate on their own. The second that the gameplay seems to bog down or players are getting frusterated you whip out that riddle and move things along... but use it as your tool and don't simply railroad the PCs with it (though even that may be the wrong word... I guess I mean don't make the getting to the adventure so easy it isn't a challenge too).
Glassjaw, I think there is a LOT of opportunity in this for it to be a role-playing excersize. Sure there are some changes I will need to make, and at this point it is likely I will need to cut down on the size of the dungeons and add in more political and intrigue type adventures to keep them up in levels, but the main core of the campaign will still work great for this.
Dungeons in and of themseleves are not the antithesis of an investigative adventure.
Sean Mahoney
Funny you should bring this up. My party did a similiar thing to your own except upon hearing the 'clue' they focused straight on the lock/key, paawed over the Cauldron map they had acquired when first entering the town and pinpointed Ghelves Locks instantly. Thjey never even went to the orphanage!
My plan is to really play out the 'inbetween' portions of the AP. I intend to have the players do the predominate amount of their investigation, roleplay and character develop between the actual adventures. I have even gone so far as to create adventures which link specifically to the characters themselves while attempting to weave them into the overall AP plot which I will have them play in these 'gaps'.
Some of these 'adventures' are merely events/happenings/encounters but all of them are geared to exactly what you are aiming at - character/plot development through roleplay instead of merely swordplay.
Anyhow, just wanted to let you know you are not alone.
Delvesdeep
Glassjaw, I think there is a LOT of opportunity in this for it to be a role-playing excersize. Sure there are some changes I will need to make, and at this point it is likely I will need to cut down on the size of the dungeons and add in more political and intrigue type adventures to keep them up in levels, but the main core of the campaign will still work great for this.
If you say so *shrugs*.
While there are some short role-playing "scenes" here and there, this isn't the focus of the campaign - not even close. A lot of times the "investigations" are loaded too. There aren't really many options for the PC's to get to the conclusion and if they miss it, someone will come and help them anyway.
I'm just saying if that you are determined to increase the investigation, role-playing, and political elements of the AP, you have a lot of work ahead of you. In my opinion, your work would be better served creating your own campaign instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
Trust me, I like the AP a lot but I like it for what it is, not what it's not or could be.
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I did not give my players the riddle right away. They had a whole day on their own to find things out and investigate.
How did I do that?
Jenya said to them that in the morning on the day after tomorrow (remember, the encounter with Rufus took place in the evening hours). She could make the necessary divination because Sarcem Delasharn used the item nearly a week ago when he began his journey. The answer made him quite distraught and he took Alek Tercival and nearly all acolytes with him, in addition to most of the reserves of healing goods from the temple.
The players even met Sarcem, Alex and the acolytes during the journey through the jungle. This encounter gave one of the characters a good fright...
Sarcem Delasharn was the abbot of the cloister school, where one of my PC's was growing up, and Sarcem was responsible for evicting the youngster from the school. He only followed the rules, though. The PC was set up by another youth, trying to steal the heart of his beloved girlfriend, a plan that succeeded.
Delvesdeep,
I would be very interested in hearing some of the specifics that you are adding in!
They are having fun, in fact, several have already declared it their favorite game they have played (however, I have seen the competition for them and won't get a huge head over that). I don't think they necessarily feel railroaded by this or anything and are continuing to have fun, but I feel like doing it when I did made shorter the 'investigation' phase that they were finding so fun. If I waiting until just the time it seemed to no longer be fun (or preferably right before that if I could read them well enough), then I would have maximized the 'fun.'
That is my advice to other GMs starting the Adventure Path... hold off on the riddle until it is needed. It is a fun tool though, so I wouldn't skip it completely.
Sean Mahoney
I won't bore you with too much detail Sean but basically and as succinctly as I can make it - One of the party member is a Cleric of Heironeous and also a 'Knight Chivlar' (aka Knight Templar) who had to flee their homeland in disguise after the knighthood was declared traitorous by the soviegn (this is already starting ti become too detailed!)
Plot A - Knight of the Smoking Eye
Step 1
When the knight chose to search for the shrine of Heironeous in Cauldron she found it in ruins and the elderly friar dead. After a bit of investigation the knight found some street urchins who had witnessed the attack lead by a red haired knight in black spiked armour. The Knight discovers a the dictim(bible & code) of the Knights Chivlar and a recently scribed scroll send by the head of her order asking for the old prior to investigate the disappearance of the force sent to the frontier lands(Cauldron Region) that were to establish a new base for the Knights using a sizable portion of its treasury.
Investigation of the red haired knight reveals him to match the description of a female - Flood season Villian (sorry I forgot her name) - who has gone missing.
Plot A - Ultimate Plot
The Provencial Prior who lead the mission and stole the funds became one of the Cagewrights (cleric of Adimarchus) and was seduced by the Fallen Angles mad whispers of power. Teresong (red haired cleric) is one of his followers. All of his followers have the sign of the Smoking Eye (missing eye with black flames painted/tatooed around it).
Anyway I have a sub-plot for each of my players (4 in all) which I hope will link to each other while similtaneously weaving through the overall AP plot. If you are interested in the other basic sub-plots let me know. I don't want to inflict any more upon you unless you really are interested and no just being polite;).
Delvesdeep
I don't want to inflict any more upon you unless you really are interested and no just being polite;).
I am very much interested. Even if there isn't tid-bits I can steal for myself, seeing how you used the info can give me springboards for ideas. Additionally, it looks like just interesting info!
Sean
I'm glad Sean. Hopefully my other 'plots' may be more use to you.
Plot B - The Acquirers
The group were conned into assisting a 'poor' rogue in retrieving his 'grandfathers' sentemental relic the halfling stole and sold in his turbulant youth. Breaking into the reclusive nobles manor met with disaster when the noble turned out to be an unhappy wizard.
The long and short of it is that the thief sold the six armed statuette (spell weaver) to a servant of the noble for a good price and hoped to recapture the item to sale again. The statuette was discovered by a group called the Acquirers of which this thief was once part of.
The noble saw through the rogue superfudge and released the party if they could return the statuette and reclaim what the noble had purchased the item for.
Plot Device
This senerio introduced the party to two potential allies. The noble and the Acquirers (see my thread on this forum about a 'Good Cauldron thieves guild' for more details on the organisation if you are interested).
The Acquirers will eventually act as an opposing force to the Last Laugh who has a 'Assassin Sleeper' in their guildhouse. Ultimately the Acquirers Headquarters will be attacked by the Last Laugh and its surviving members targeted.
Benefits
The Acquirers will offer the party rogue a group of allies, source of equipment, chance to purchase 'cheaper' potions/scrolls and plenty of adventure opportunities.
The Acquirers retrieve relics of past empires which include the Kopru, Koa-Toa and most importantly - the Spell Weavers. The Art Dealer of the organisation has a obsession with acquatic civilisations which will come into play early with both the Koa-Toa and Kopru ruins.
I will also be using this organisation to provide small 'retrieval' missions for the party to focus in on the rogue and foreshadow other cagewrights who otherwise do not even appear until they are attacked by the party in the last couple of adventures.
Anyhow just a few ideas.
I have a couple more (the 'Wizard Noble' and the Striders) if you have not had enough.
Do you have any foreshadowing or filler encounters/adventures yourself
Delvesdeep