Most tricksters are always two steps ahead of the competition. A few know how to win before the race even begins!
The trickster is a new Pathfinder Roleplaying Game compatible class which combines arcane magic with roguish skills. Use your special Forte ability to perform incredible acrobatics, summon a magical familiar to act as an accomplice, beguile enemies, or steal spells as they're being cast! Outwit your foes and outrun your enemies.
New Paths 8: The Trickster gives you everything you need to play a trickster whose understanding of the arcane is matched only by his charming and debonair style.
Designer Marc Radle has provided a daring and risk-taking new base class including:
5 new Fortes such as Arcane Accomplice, Beguiling, Spell Pilfering, and Shadow
8 new base class abilities such as Sneakspell and Ranged Legerdemain
a full 20-level class that knows when to walk away, and when to run!
Whether you use these powers for good, for seduction, or for power and wealth is entirely up to you—but who says you have to choose just one? Get The Trickster today, wield great arcane might, and have the satisfaction of always being ahead of the pack!
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*** I updated my review to take into account the changes and many additions provided in the revised version of the pdf. These updates appear within asterisks, just like this one here ***
The Trickster is a very elegant mix of Bard, Arcanist and Rogue with a suit of specialized abilities based on a Forte that is chosen among four possibilities, and a nod or two to the Arcane Trickster Prestige Class.
*** Post Revision : there are now five Forte available, as well as an archetype that boosts them significantly ***
It is a bit too far on the powerful side for me to consider it quite balanced though and the execution feels a bit odd at times.
*** Post Revision : the overall package is still quite powerful, but the author included advice on nerfing it down. And the additional content (Shadow Forte, revision of the Acrobat Forte and dual-Forte archetype) means that this product now delivers incredible value for its meager price ***
Let’s take a walk through the class.
The presentation is fluid with only some hiccups (going from “he” to “they”, for example).
The Trickster shares its basic chassis with the Bard : Hit die, skill points, proficiencies, spell slots per level and spells known (typo : should have been spells prepared, like the Arcanist). This last one being a mistake IMO, as I will detail further down.
*** Post Revision : Skill points were downgraded somewhat because of the reviews, going to 4 skill points per level since the class is heavily INT based. I did not mind the previous 6 as the Trickster being a master of both Knowledges and Rogue skills fits the stereotype IMO. A minor change of low consequences that still reflects well on the author’s laudable ability to take criticism in stride and try and improve his creation ***
Since the Bard is often compared to what a Rogue should be, using its chassis is a good choice to build the Trickster on.
The Rogue (Core, not Unchained) brings it much of its class skills, sneak attack, trap sense, evasion, uncanny dodge (and improved), though these happen in a delayed fashion that brings a proper overall balance IMO.
From the Arcanist, it gains the INT-based spellcasting mode (including access to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell-list), making the Trickster AFAIK the first ¾ BAB, 6-level caster using this powerful mode.
Regrettably, the critical balancing factor of spells prepared / known is off, since it is based on the Bard’s values that are themselves balanced by the class-specific spell-list. Which is not the case for the Trickster.
As a result, the Trickster actually gets MORE spells prepared than the Arcanist. It is only from 8-th level that the Arcanist will get more powerful through earlier access to high-level spells.
That is the first step that pushes the Trickster on the too powerful side.
*** Post Revision : To answer criticism on how powerful the class was, the author proposes to balance this by the option of making Necromancy and Evocation forbidden schools for the Trickster. I appreciate the effort, but I find the option provided lacking for 2 reasons : 1. It restricts the possibilities given to players for building their PC which is something I’d rather avoid. 2. It robs the Trickster of many spells which help him get the most of his Surprise Spells class feature. Evocation after all is THE school for HP damage.
I would have preferred reducing the number of spells prepared at each level so that the Trickster ends up with less spells than the Arcanist.
That said, once again, the author is willing to take into account criticism and change his creation accordingly and this is really something I applaud, even if the end result is a little subpar for my taste ***
The Trickster is clearly to the Arcane Trickster what the Magus is to the Eldritch Knight : a base class declining the concept behind the Prestige Class in 20 levels. As such it incorporates signature abilities of the Arcane Trickster such as Ranged Legerdemain (though at 9th level, where an Arcane Trickster could get it as a 6th-level character) and Surprise Spells (at 15th level, same character level at which an Arcane Trickster could get it). Nothing unbalancing here. In fact I am not sure why Ranged Legerdemain appears so late.
The Trickster also gains bonus feats selected from a small list mixing Rogue and Wizard’s flavors. I am not sure why the author put these in, maybe to compensate for the absence of rogue Talents, but they do feel both tacked onto the chassis and adding too many goodies to what is already a strong class. Or maybe they were just put there to avoid empty levels, which I would then see as uninspired design. In all honesty, I would get rid of them without blinking an eye.
These bonus feats are the second step in giving this class a bit too much.
The special abilities are IMO what gives a class its singular identity, especially for a 3pp one. And here the author delivers both adequate value and a satisfying take on the magical Rogue concept.
The first Trickster-specific class feature is the choice of one of four Fortes at 2nd level. This choice is exclusive, which mostly begs for feats that would allow a Trickster to pick abilities from a Forte he did not choose.
The Fortes feel odd to me because I think they should have been treated as a single class with 3 archetypes. As is, adding archetypes will be in addition to the Forte choice and these last features will not be changeable, which is needlessly limiting further design options IMO. I do not know why this design option was chosen, but I feel that it might have been a matter of wordcount.
Each Forte explores a theme of the Rogue and how magic can improve it. Which means we need more Forte exploring other themes of the magical Rogue. Paradoxically, the Forte do this better than an archetype would because they are focused on a small set of related abilities. So, in the end, while I believe that base class + archetypes would have been a better design choice, I do not count it against the product’s final rating. I definitely think a Forte about shadow and one focused on sniping are lacking though.
*** Post Revision : There is now a fifth Forte about Shadow : ask and you will be answered by Marc Radle !!! And that at no additional price.
See further down my assessment of this addition to the class’ possibilities ***
A Forte gives its basic ability at 2nd level, an improved one at 5th level and the last one at 9th level.
Note that this makes the 5th level (where the Trickster also gets Sneakspell) and 9th level (where he also gets Ranged Legerdemain) levels of plenty in the Trickster’s ability progression. I must say that I would have preferred a more continuous increase.
The four Fortes we get here are slightly mismatched in power level.
The Acrobat : the tumbling Rogue theme. I believe these abilities should be Rogue Talents or some Rogue archetype. There is not enough magic here to fit the Trickster concept IMO.
*** Post Revision : The Acrobat Forte got magic alright. I think it even became one of the strongest Forte what with increasing base speed, gaining the previous 9th level powers as soon as 5th level (with additional increase to AC later on) as well as a freedom of movement effect and a dimension door one (a bit strange wording on that one but it may be the official parlance for such effects) ***
The Arcane Accomplice : the flanking Rogue theme, served by getting a familiar with its own sneak attack. d4 instead of d6 for damage is not enough IMO to prevent this from being abused. Maybe restricting it to apply only when attacking the same target as its master, or when flanking would have struck a better balance. But I am not enough of a designer to assess this properly. The way its is done here, it is a bit powerful, but not devastatingly so.
The next Forte is the Beguile. Among the four Fortes, the Beguile feels the most like what could have been the main class : the casting Rogue theme. Spells more efficient against a target denied its DEX bonus is one of the archetypical ability people look for in such a casting Rogue class. Increasing the power of Feint to reasonable levels works quite well too. Great job here.
The Spellpilfer : The spell stealing Rogue theme. You temporarily steal a spell from your target’s list and add it to your own. Great building on the theme of spell stealing that is also the basis for the Filch Spell ability (see below). Excellent mechanics, and the short time limit keeps this to a reasonable power level.
Note however that this could be mildly abused by targeting allies with it, as they will voluntarily fail their save against this ability, that is if they do not mind becoming a battery for your spellcasting knowledge. Also this Forte hinges on INT and thus makes the Trickster more SAD than the other ones, which can also lead to characters that are a bit too powerful.
*** Post Revision : The Shadow Forte : the stealthy Rogue theme with some HiPS ability that sounds like that of the shadowdancer, as well as bonuses dealing with/against shadow and darkness spells as well as seeing in any darkness (eventually). That looks pretty strong ***
Other than the Forte, several abilities are also completely new to the Trickster :
At 5th level, Sneakspell adds a touch spell to a sneak attack, in a way similar to the Magus’ Spellstrike. Missing makes you lose the spell however. Improved Sneakspell lets you keep the charge but happens at a level high enough (17th) that it does not become unbalancing.
At 14th level, Filch Spell allows the Trickster to steal the control of a spell for one round. It is well crafted and thematically on spot. So much so in fact that I would not have minded the Trickster gaining it earlier, maybe with a standard action at first, then going to move then swift, similar to the improving action cost of starting a Bardic Performance.
The capstone of the class is solid but unimaginative, as it makes sneak attacks and sneakspells markedly deadlier but it is a mere power increase (and one that kind of comes out of the blue rather than being the culmination of previous abilities), so no bonus point for out of the box creativity there.
Finally, since this base class is clearly inspired by the Arcane Trickster Prestige Class, how do they fit together ?
Going into Arcane Trickster from Trickster is pretty straightforward since you meet all requirements with 5 levels in Trickster. I would advise waiting for the 6th level in Trickster, that gains you +1 to BAB and to all Saves, as well as a bonus feat before going into Arcane Trickster.
Now why would you do this ? Well, the Arcane Trickster gains sneak attack faster and has a few specific goodies (Impromptu Sneak Attack, Tricky Spells and Invisible Thief), whereas the Trickster will strengthen his Forte, gain the Uncanny Dodge chain as well as the best signature abilities of the class : Improved Sneakspell and Filch Spell. In the end, considering that I can find more ways to replicate the Arcane Trickster’s abilities (with feats, spells, items) and that I think them a little weaker, I would stick to Trickster.
*** Post Revision : Dual Forte Archetype.
If you thought Forte were strong, this archetype just takes them over the top. Not only do you gain a second Forte (though functioning at a reduced Trickster level), but your first Forte gains extra abilities at higher level that just bring it to the OMG (though not completely broken) power level. I do not expect those who wish for a more balanced Trickster to look kindly on these. To get this, you sacrifice the bonus feats (sign me in), Improved uncanny dodge (ok by me), as well as filch spell (Take me now. I am ready).
As a GM, I would split this archetype in two mutually exclusive ones (that replace the same features mentioned above) : one that gets the second Forte, and another one that improves the first Forte. YMMV of course ***
CONCLUSION
My initial rating was 4.5 stars, rounded down to 4 for the reasons given here. *** The revision brought it up to 5 stars for reasons mentioned afterwards :-) ***
The Trickster is a very good class that will definitely appeal to those who appreciate the Rogue’s theme but feel that the Core (or even Unchained) Rogue is woefully underpowered in comparison to other classes.
Alas it goes a bit too far on the powerful side for my taste, but the Trickster is so elegantly designed that it should be pretty easy to dial its power down to what you feel more comfortable with.
Still I think that would be best done by its designer and should not be left to the product’s buyers. Because of this and the hiccups in design I mentioned above, I cannot in good faith give this product its 5th star, even though I dearly wish to, if only because it definitely answers a need that went unsatisfied for far too long.
You did a very good job here, Marc. Almost perfect actually and it proved agonizing to choose between 4 and 5 stars for the Trickster. Please, keep providing us with your simple and elegant classes
*** Post Revision : Yes, the Trickster is still too powerful IMO, and I do not like the proposed balancing mechanism. And the new archetype makes it even more powerful. Yet, all this additional material means I am not agonizing about this product's rating anymore. This pdf contains incredible value at a small price and the changes needed to tone it down are easily made. It entirely deserves its 5th star. And as a free bonus, Marc Radle shows what being a class act author is all about, willing to go the many extra miles to add value to his creation by listening to its audience's feedback.
Even if you fear that this class is too powerful, BUY THIS NOW and adjust it to your heart's content ***
DISCLAIMER: I received a complimentary copy of this product in exchange for my review. I received no other compensation, nor am I affiliated in any way with Marc Radle or Kobold Press.
OTHER DISCLAIMER: At the time of this writing, this product was released less than one year ago. Hence, everything in this review, especially the Long Term Rating, should be considered tentative.
This PDF comes in at 10 pages, including six pages of content. After the title page, we get a full-page illustration which is a duplicate of the cover art, and a short introduction before diving into the Trickster base class.
The Trickster class casts wizard/sorcerer spells. It only gets six levels of spellcasting, plus cantrips. It has 3/4 BAB, a low fortitude save, high reflex and will saves, and six skill-points per level. Its casting is intelligence-based, and uses a hybrid between prepared and spontaneous casting.
At first level, the Trickster gets Sneak Attack and Trap Finding, exactly as the rogue class features (though Sneak Attack advances slower than it does for the rogue).
At second level, the Trickster gets to choose a class feature called a “forte,” which gives them minor bonuses in one area. The available forte are Acrobat (mostly just number boosts), Arcane Accomplice (you get a familiar, and your familiar can make sneak attacks), Beguiler (more number boosts), and Spell Pilfer (which gives you an original spell-stealing mechanic).
Then comes the Sneakspell ability at 5th level, which allows you to cast an offensive spell as part of a sneak attack, analogous to the magus’ spell combat ability. After another handful of number-boosts, bonus feats, and class features copied from the rogue, the Trickster gets two more non-numerical class features. At ninth level, Ranged Lengerdmain allows the Trickster to use sleight of hand and disable device at a range (with an increased check DC). The ability is classified as (Su) for reasons that aren’t clear to me (I think it should be Extraordinary).
At 14th level the Trickster gets Filch Spell, which in my opinion is their most interesting class feature. If an enemy caster has an on-going spell that allows the caster to control or direct it after casting (e.g. Aqueous Orb or Flaming Sphere), the Trickster can steal control of the spell for one round by making a check.
After that, we just get more number boosts and bonus feats. And after the class features, the supplement ends abruptly. There are no archetypes, class-specific feats, or class-specific items, nor are their sample NPC Tricksters.
Aside from the cover art, there are a couple small, full-color illustrations throughout this product.
Short Term Use: I had to read the explanation of this class’ casting mechanic multiple times to get how it worked. That is unusual for me, even when I am learning a complete new subsystem. Much of the formatting and language of the class’ casting rules are styled similarly to the presentations of the sorcerer and wizard rules, even when the Trickster rules are actually different, which might confuse readers who are very familiar with the core d20 spellcasting system. Aside from the initial confusion, however, the clarity and presentation of this class are very good.
Aside from selection of bonus feats, there are very few build choices involved in creating a Trickster, making it a solid choice for an NPC that you need stats for quickly.
Balance-wise, this class falls close to the middle of most existing classes. It’s a bit higher on the totem pole than a bard, comparable to an inquisitor, and much less powerful than sorcerers and oracles. That balance point seems to be popular for a lot of campaigns, which once again makes this class easy to use in your campaign. Overall, this product earns a Short Term Rating of 4.5/5.
Long Term Use: Two different Trickster builds are likely to be very similar, and the class is not amendable to multi-classing, both of which may limit how much use you can get out of it years down the road. While it has a lot of class features listed, most of them are rather dull number boosts. Still, the few non-numerical class features it does have can keep it interesting for a while, and might be useful if you are designing archetypes for another class and want to give them Trickster class features. Of course, Trickster archetypes that traded out some of the number boosts would greatly improve this product’s shelf-life, but there are no archetypes in this product. Overall, I’ll settle on a Long Term Rating of 3.5/5, rounded up to 4/5 due to the low price.
So if you have seen my opinions about New Paths Compendium my views of The Trickster will induce a lot of deja vu. Like a lot of it's predecessors the Trickster class follows a lot of familiar ground and fills in a huge gap but adds a bit of new to make it a real novelty while still feeling like a real part of the game. As a whole that's the main strength of the New Path classes. They feel like they could have been printed by Paizo so its pretty easy to accept them in a game as opposed to completely new kinds of systems like Spheres of Power or sharp changes in balance like Path of War. They simply fit in and play nice with base Pathfinder and as much as I like my crazy stuff like psionic wolfmen from the future, or Aboleth parasite mutants that shoot bears out of their eyes I absolutely love my purchase of New Paths Compendium and products that simply fill in the blanks that the base game leaves behind.
So what is the Trickster? Well in a nutshell it's a 20 level Arcane Trickster in the same way that the Magus is a 20 level Eldritch knight. Its basic chassis is a 3/4 BAB class with six levels of casting. It casts from the Sorcerer/Wizard list so avoids spell list conflicts that I normally have with new classes but does put it's casting a bit ahead of the Magus in terms of raw versatility. It has a spellbook but prepares spells known rather than spell slots, so it casts like an Arcanist (also INT based casting). It has a slower progression sneak attack and at fifth level can use sneak attacks to deliver touch spells which is where the comparison to the Magus comes in. At level 15 it can do the reverse and have spells that deal damage against flat footed enemies deal sneak attack damage which applies to all targets of the spell if the spell does damage to multiple targets in one blast (Yes fireball/No magic missile) making a surprise Burning Hands really sick all of a sudden at late levels.
There's also an option called Forte that serves as kind of a Order/Bloodline package choice that represents a focus. One makes you significantly better at acrobatics checks, one gives you a familiar that does quite a bit of extra things, like sneak attack and functionally giving you the Inquisitor's Solo Tactics with it. One makes feint pretty desirable. One allows you to steal spells but is about the only ability in the entire book that I have serious questions about. Its unclear whether or not the stolen spell is itself negated or if the stealing has to occur within a certain range or exactly when the opposing caster is casting. Either way it looks like it can swipe spells from other spell lists and cast them for a short amount of time. Plus later on they can hijack ongoing spells and control them.
The rest of the class features are mostly filler-ish or expected things. It gets six +1s to a number of skills over the course of the class, three bonus feats from a limited pool or a metamagic feat. They get uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge, trapfinding and evasion. One interesting thing is that they can make ranged disable device and sleight of hand checks as if they were using mage hand to do it. Something everyone ever had tried to do before realizing that's not how the spell works. Eventually they can hijack ongoing spells and control them.
In the end I have to criticize an INT based caster with 6+INT skills per level. This can easily be seen as a "better Rogue" from that standpoint alone. Although that's true for a lot of things the class feels like the Rogue dropped all of it's worst abilities and replaced them with good ones. But overall, I like the class. I've seen a few 20 level arcane trickster type classes and this one fills in the checkboxes that I think are the most desirable things about the concept. Using mage hand to steal/disable, steal spells, cast with versatility. I also have to praise the points where it keeps in room for expansion with it's Forte class feature. Its a rather simple class that fits in about 5 pages but it's packed with so many small smart choices that brings it together. The Fortes make the focus of the class drastically different from each other, the Arcanist casting keeps it from being boring but still keeps it spontaneous, stealing control of spells, not shoehorning a talent selection (which would have made for a huge chunk of choice paralysis since spells are also involved.). I think this class fits in great next to the Magus in filling up concepts that fit in the six level arcane caster space and is probably my current favorite chassis for the concept. I think I can confidently give this five stars out of five. I'm sure that others will love it.
The beguiler class is essentially an arcane rogue type of class that has built in customization through its order class feature, which include masters of shadow magic, seductive enchantresses, elaborate infiltrators, and deadly assassins.
While not a full-fledged 3PP release as Kobold Press has so masterfully produced, the author of the conversion has been supporting and adding onto the class for the last two years. The result is a class that has been thoroughly play-tested and is one of the most balanced full casters available for pathfinder. And best of all, it's completely free. Please check out ertw's beguiler conversion and see what you think!
Will have to pick this up later. I have the New Paths compendium and it's going to be fun to see new entries in this line. (I doubt the Trickster is a one-off.)
Just saw that New Paths 8: The Trickster is #2 on DriveThruRPG'
Wait, what? It's number 43. #2 is the OD&D core rules.
Oh, wait, NOW I get it, you meant that it is #2 just among Pathfinder products:)
Obviously, I'm slow today. Mentally slow, that is--as a Moose I have a very high movement rate.
Got my review up faster than expected since class let out early and gave me some free time!
Great product and I really hope it gets some expansion!
I condensed my feedback into my reviews conclusion and if this class is ever getting reprinted into a compiled book or edited I think some of my feedback is relevant to that.
Edit: I can't give a star rating or review to the product on other websites :(
Thanks so much to DungeonmasterCal and Insain Dragoon for the wonderful reviews!
@Insain Dragoon ... if there would ever happen to be, oh, I don't know .... an expanded and updated hardcover version of the New Paths Compendium for example, I think I very much might yoink a few of those suggestions!
Ok, this seems pretty straightforward, but I'm not having a good mental health day and my thinking is pretty cloudy. A Trickster gets his INT bonus on the number of 1st level spells he adds to his beginning spellbook, but does he also gain his INT bonus each time he gains spells of higher levels to add to his book, or does this apply only to first level spells? I'm thinking it's just 1st level, but like I said, today is not a good day and I was wondering.
I had purchased this the other day. The PDF is well thought out, and concise. I have previously purchased the spell-less ranger, and we have found the class to be fun, capable and balanced at our gaming table.
That said, upon review by our DM, this class was given the immediate ban hammer at our table. We discussed it a length, and the consensus is the class is just far too powerful to be allowed. It gains far too many abilities and few too many weaknesses. Our first comparison was this class against another third party class, Ascension Games, Nightblade.
The Nightblade is allowed at our table. For comparison, the side by side breaks down as such:
Class Skills, both get 6+Int, with a similar list, but the Trickster wins, due to the casting stat being Int based, as opposed to the Nightblade which is Cha based.
Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: Similar, but again, Trickster wins with proficiency in shields, something the Nightblade does not have.
Spells: Same progression, spells/day, but once again Trickster wins by having full access to all wizard/sorcerer spells, the Nightblade is limited to a comparatively small selection of spells on limited list.Plus the Trickster evens up some of the difference between its prepared casting and the Nightblade's spontaneous casting by using the Arcanist system.
Both classes have the same hit die, D8, same BAB, same saves progression.
In melee, the Trickster also owns the Nightblade, as it receives a very decent sneak attack progression, maxing out at 7 die (I know arguments can be made against SA, but at low levels, it can be a real game changer). The Nightblade can only gain sneak attack with an Archetype, and it loses out on many of its key abilities, to gain a maximum 4 die on its attacks.
Continuing on this idea, the Nightblade receives Evasion, and Improved Evasion, the Trickster gains both of those plus Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
The Trickster' Forte is nearly the equivalent of the Nightblade's Path Technique, and its remaining class features meet or exceed the remaining Nightblade class features, especially once the Bonus Feats the Trickster gains access to, are added in to the equation, and put the Trickster over the top with Trapfinding too boot.
All of this is just in comparison to a third party class, put the Trickster up against the new Rogue archetype, the Eldritch Scoundrel in the Arcane Anthology from Paizo, and no one in their right mind would even think twice about playing the Trickster over the Rogue.
The Rogue suffers horribly for much weaker casting. It loses out on armour and shield proficiency (as in it has none), drops from 8 to 4 skill points per level, loses trap sense, has a max 5 die of sneak attack, gets only half the normal number of Rogue talents, and loses both Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge (which, if it wants them has to waste its limited rogue talents slots upon to buy back). It isn't even close. Who would ever want the poor rogue?
I honestly didn't come here to rain on the parade, or take away from anyone. Our group loves the spell-less ranger, and there is a lot of respect for the Savant but that said, further refinement and balancing on this class on the part of Kobold Press would be needed to even garner a second chance at being allowed in our games. A shame, as we all support third party products and have enjoyed previous offerings from Kobold, just not this time around. The trickster is vastly over-powered and screams to us of a power-gamers wildest dream come true.
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
MysteriousFX wrote:
Class Skills, both get 6+Int, with a similar list, but the Trickster wins, due to the casting stat being Int based, as opposed to the Nightblade which is Cha based.
I don't understand this. What difference does the basis of the class's casting have to do with skills? Is it because for the Nightblade you consider INT a dump stat?
Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
@MysteriousFX Thank you for that well thought out analysis. I was tempted to buy this after it was suggested to me yesterday, but I think I'll hold off just in case my DM decided to veto it. I think a post like yours would also be really useful if you could post it as a review for the product, just so people know what they're getting into.
If you're interested in something sort of between the nightblade and the trickster without the power issues you've found with this product, you should definitely check out Ertw's Beguiler. I've just begun to build my character with it and I'm really excited to start playing.
Hey there @MysteriousFX - thanks for the observations. Theorycrafting and static comparisons can certianly have their place, but nothing can replace how something actually plays at the table and I can tell you this class was *very* thoroughly playtested ... by multiple people, multiple GMs and at multiple levels. In actual game playtests, the Trickster was very balanced - it held its own with other classes and had chances to shine but never overpowered.
It's totally cool if your GM doesn't want to allow the class - every group is different and your GM knows your group better than anyone. I would maybe suggest that your group try some actual game playtesting before making a final decision. I honestly think you will find the class quite balanced.
This is just theorycraft, but I'm of the opinion that the Trickster is closer to the power level of a Magus. Of all the classes in Pathfinder the one the Trickster is closest to is Magus in terms of class features and trade offs, yet Magus are considered balanced.
This is just theorycraft, but I'm of the opinion that the Trickster is closer to the power level of a Magus. Of all the classes in Pathfinder the one the Trickster is closest to is Magus in terms of class features and trade offs, yet Magus are considered balanced.
I've compared the two alongside each other several times, and I couldn't have said it better.
It's a pet peeve of mine that GMs and players alike will ban-hammer something w/out even playing it. I may not like a class on paper, but I'll let a player try it out, with the caveat that it fits my game world's flavor. I don't allow gunslingers, for instance, not because I think they're overpowered or silly or whatever, but there's just no place for them in the way I view my homebrew setting. Having said that, I still might allow one just to see how it played out if the player had a really good backstory and reason for it to exist in my setting. I try to keep a pretty open mind about things.
Sigh. I had known that my opinion wouldn't be popular, but I believe it also had to be said. For those of you that want to believe this was a snap reaction, you couldn't be farther from the truth. Our group has plenty of experience with a lot of classes through 3.0., 3.5, and Pathfinder.
It doesn't take a lot to just read through the class and look at it in its entirety to know that is overly powerful. It is right there in print.
And any comparisons to the Magus are actually quite funny. The Magus has a limited spell list, a limited number of Spell Strikes in a day, and is totally reliant on one or two low level spells to pull of his short term burst damage, which are easily and commonly resisted at mid to higher levels. I have played three Magus as of now, they are a one-trick pony, and can easily say that the Trickster is well above the Magus power level. An unlimited options spell list, and skills that can be used of of combat, and more of them, plus the ablity to do other useful things, such as trap-finding.
Yeah, not even close. If you want to go tiers, the Magus is a solid 4, the Trickster is easily a top tier 3, maybe even edging in to tier 2 territory. Even beyond everything else I believe is already makes this such a strong class, is the abuse that the full access to the wiz/sorc spell list enables. No other (balanced) 6th level casting class can lay claim to having such a spell list. There are very solid reasons for that.
Go ahead and actually play the Trickster, I can guarantee you, it will quickly become a go to in your games, and very nearly invalidate every needing a Rogue again. Every class should have some short-coming or weakness, the Trickster just doesn't have any. It can pretty much do it all. And with that, I have said my piece, happy gaming everyone.
@BlindGuyBilly, thank you for message. And I have been following the tread on Ertw's Beguiler very closely from the beginning. I have latest PDF and the class is definitely rock solid.
Sigh. I had known that my opinion wouldn't be popular, but I believe it also had to be said. For those of you that want to believe this was a snap reaction, you couldn't be farther from the truth. Our group has plenty of experience with a lot of classes through 3.0., 3.5, and Pathfinder.
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Go ahead and actually play the Trickster, I can guarantee you, it will quickly become a go to in your games, and very nearly invalidate every needing a Rogue again. Every class should have some short-coming or weakness, the Trickster just doesn't have any. It can pretty much do it all. And with that, I have said my piece, happy gaming everyone.
Hey there MysteriousFX - seriously, it's all good! This isn't a battle :)
Every group is different and has a different play style - what's over-powered for one group is under-powered for another group, and just about perfect for a third (the Pathfinder Goldilocks effect, if you will :) If the class isn't for your group, that's totally cool! Others enjoy the class, but that certainly doesn't mean it has to be your cup of tea. Heck, there are plenty of threads detailing why some folks dislike one Paizo class or another (or feel a given Paizo class is over or under powered or whatever)
And hey, you like the spell-less ranger, so you're OK in my book :)
Having read through the class myself, I agree with @Mysteriousfx's assessment of the class. Without some major revisions to tone down the class, our group would not allow this at our table either. Just saying my two cents.
@ErrantBlue, thanks. For a while there I had felt as if I spoken some great evil with the heat I was getting from some other posters.
@Insain Dragoon, I am neither upset, nor offended by your comments. Everyone is indeed fully entitled to their own opinions, I have mine and you have your own. That is what makes the world turn. I respect that and you, and I never did call you out specifically. I was generalizing my comments. But, one comment you made, "Also I am ok with it invalidating Rogue. At this point it's hard to make a viable class without any spells." That right there, I believe, validates my take. It is sad to have to think that this is the state that you think that Pathfinder has gotten too. This tells me that power-creep has gotten so out of hand that it's being taken as granted. It is a sense of apathy or ennui I see setting in that isn't doing this game any favours for its longevity. No one class should completely make another, especially a core, iconic class completely redundant or useless. Also a well written and thought out class shouldn't need to have spell casting to be competitive. Fun nowadays seems equate to power levels. But I digress. Can we call peace and to each their own?
@Marc Radle. You are very gracious. I was tempted to write a review but I was torn as to what my rating would have been. On the one hand I respect you an your companies name and products. Being a third party publisher in the gaming industry can't be easy, but my own strong opinions on the actual balance of this class colour my perceptions deeply. I have already stated my case and made points for all to read. I am just a tad disappointed is all. This class is not really unique in any manner, it just seems a cherry picking of two existing classes best abilities with some extra tricks tacked on. A question for you. As this is a rogue based class with spell casting ability, its parent class the rogue does not have shield proficiency, why was it felt necessary to give the Trickster class said proficiency when it has a strong spell list than can already more than handle the AC problems right out of the box?
I like to see truly unique classes, that can do something no one else can and that have equal short-comings to match their strengths. I do not say this to be mean or spiteful in any way. I just want to see this game continue and for your own and all the other third party publishers to be successful. And to do that it means to think outside the box, and be creative. I sadly just do not see that here. Myself, I still think to this day, one of the best designed, most balanced and fun to play classes made was the Factotum from the 3.5 days. That was a class that should be held as an example of creative and different without overshadowing anyone other class. It is late as write this so if I am unclear or rambling I apologize. And Marc, worry not, I do indeed look forward to seeing what Kobold Press gives us next. In the interim, my next character I roll up will be another spell-less ranger. Maybe one of the archetypes this time.
@DungeonmasterCal I have not tried to convert the Factotum over myself, I wouldn't know where to begin. I have seen a few attempts, by individuals posted on the net. Not a one quite got the feeling right. It may be that it is just a difficult class to make work within the parameters of Pathfinder, retaining its feel and originality without being either over or under-powered.
That's how I look at it. I'm not good at theorycrafting (the "maths" get too much). But to me it did always seem a tad OP, but translating it to PF would probably make it definitely so. No one in my group besides my son (who no longer plays) ever even heard of it, so it's no great loss to my game, but I might take a stab at it sometime. Lord knows I have the time.
Review posted! I'm hoping to be able to revisit it and expand on it once I've got more play time with the class, but I am very impressed by the value contained within this .pdf, and with the overall quality and versatility of the class in general.
I'd have to go back and check my notes to confirm, but I seem to remember the class initially not having shield proficiency and then adding it based on playtest feedback ...
I can definately see the point being made for no shield proficiency though ... I'll give it some thought ...
