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And now, the thread rises as a mythic lich one last time:
We did it! We finished the whole thing tonight, all of Rise of the Rune Lords and Wrath of the Righteous took from August of 2013 to now, April 2017. We by no means played every week, since there were holidays, illnesses, late nights, and lots of other distractions, but we probably put in 150 sessions. But, they were all happy and fulfilled when the curtain fell.

This was the longest single campaign I've ever participated in, much less run, but I'm glad I did.

Some major takeaways from the whole thing:
1. I definitely recommend mixing modules; it was a long road, but a hell of a lot of fun.
2. Wrath of the Righteous absolutely falls apart at the end. The first three modules are fantastic; really interesting characters and situations, but the last three are just one long dungeon crawl. Cool things like the massive battle rules that feature so prominently in early adventures disappear near the end, which is too bad.
3. Rise of the Rune Lords is one of the best adventures ever written, I understand why it launched Paizo.

4. And last, but certainly not least: I renew my objection from years ago that there really should be rules for scaling up the modules. Although we're ready to move on and play some Star Wars, it makes perfect sense that these characters would have had a vested interest in circling back to clean up some of the messes they caused in Magnimar with the cultist and with a certain lost princess.

It's been a hell of an adventure, and it was an honor and a pleasure to go there and back again.

Cast Mythic thread necro!

We've long since crossed the two year mark (back in August, I think) and we are still at it, but I had to change the plan quite a bit.
Two of my people moved away, so I ended up skipping Sins of the saviors completely and vastly abbreviating Spires of Xin Shalast so that they
could be there to defeat Karzoug and give the game some closure for them. Then we circled back to Midnight Isles and will play straight through to the end.
Which makes sense really, that they went through the World Wound and won't come back out till the job is done. They are currently level 17 tier 6, having just earned a new tier
for gaining noteriety in the city and making peace with Noticula (only one of them sold their souls, surprisingly enough.)

We are all still enjoying it; my people who moved away actually Skype in now to keep playing, but I am DEFINITELY looking forward to the campaign being done. With my luck
they'll want to keep playing an epic levels campaign afterwards, LOL.

I am just giving out levels / tiers at the chapter breaks I listed above. AKA 'you finished this chapter, you gain level 12'. There have been one or two times if they did something especially impressive I gave the boost early, but for the most part I've stayed on track.

Honestly, it's been hard for me to keep them waiting, too; but it's hard enough to balance the campaigns as is with a group of 5 min/maxers, so rushing to make them even more OP would only end up hurting myself lol.

As a power gamer myself, I'd probably be bothered by the slower pace, but they don't seem to mind; if it became an issue, I'd just doll out xp points to create the illusion of progress, like taking surface streets to avoid highway traffic. It may not be any faster, but at least it feels like you're gaining.

*Note, I'm not going to rearrange things to finish Rune Lords before Midnight Isles after all, since it will make balancing encounters too big of a headache, so tonight they head in to close the Midnight Fane!

I will say this though, running these two combined story has been lengthy, but well worth it.

/cast thread necro!
Believe it or not, we are *still at it*, making this the longest running group I've been a part of, much less single campaign. I've stuck with the plan as proposed earlier, but tonight when we finish the Demon's Heresy I'm going to move Midnight Isles to after the last two chapters of Rune Lords, so the players can get *some* sort of closure. My once obscenely 12+ person group has shrank to a solid 5, which may soon become a rock hard 3.

The biggest problem I’ve run into has been a question of balancing encounters. As I've said before, they are powergamers (which I can't complain too much about, since they learned it from me) so NONE of the encounters function as written. Right now at level 12 / tier 4 they'd absolutely smash Karzoug as he's written. I actually threw an avatar of Baphomet with his exact published stats at them last week and they beat it, although admittedly I held up a bit after I dropped two of them.

So to add another chapter to what has been a very long story already: I still think combing Aps is worth doing, as long as everyone involved knows they are signing on for an epic, and you don’t mind doing a little leg work. Oh, and combined encounters are *your friend*; take those 5 mini-bosses and put them in the same room as the big bad, and watch the players squirm.

That's about the only way without going to 3PP, yep.

There was another thread about this very thing, too. They covered it in pretty great detail.

Bladebound doesn't play nice with AT (as it doesn't advance your blade). If you want a blade that advances with your AT levels, you'll have to go Blade Adept arcanist. Which you already do.

That said, getting SA soonest as possible, with Snakebite Striker 1/Rogue1 Arcanist 2/AT10/Arcanist8 seems to be a real nice build.

You need level 2 spells, so unless your DM allows early entry hijinxs (I, being DM do not) it would have to be

You're right. The original plan was for a Blade Adept Arcanist, which has a particularly useful Arcane Exploit called
Eldritch Blade:
A blade adept with this exploit uses her caster level instead of her class level for the purpose of advancing her bonded sword's powers.

I took my eye off the ball with the Kensai stuff once I realized that archetype works with a Bladebound Magus (instead of Arcanist) but it wouldn't be worth giving up the sword.

Got to put some more thought into this now, but thanks again.

I honestly think Greensting slayer should qualify. Yes, you need to spend arcane points on it, but you still do get SA die.

1 Snakebite striker instead of 2 Rogue levels as well to get it online faster.

I'm not sure that would fit the concept I'm after (Bladebound, and possibly Bladebound/Kensai) But you are absolutely right: AT only requires: Special: Sneak attack +2d6, so mechanically it would work.

That means Magus 4/AT 10/Magus 6 (or something else entirely) becomes a possibility. Well played, LoneKnave; well played.

*Note, 15d6 is the shocking grasp max, or 30d6 on an intensified empowered crit. So only +44d6, which is, of course, utterly unremarkable. ;)

If you guys love rolling a bucket full of d6, you should play Shadowrun. ;-)

But yeah, nothing like picking up you little box of 36d6 and dumping the whole lot on the table..

Shadowrun, ah memories. Headaches, and memories.

And the Jingasa only applies if they're not using the head slot for something else (though fortification enchantments will still possibly screw that over), although yeah, a conditional 14d6 SA damage is not impressive for a CR 15, but hey, if OP likes it I vote go for it!

And at my table we love rolling dice, so 1d8+34d6 is beautiful and the stuff we dream of.

2d8 + 54d6 on a crit is even better. I like to think we're pretty big power gamers, but I don't want to see the table where a hit like that isn't impressive!

Just one thing, you need +3d6 Sneak attack to qualify for AT, when Rogue 2 only has 1d6, but otherwise I love this, and it makes one of my NPCs (Catfolk Rogue/Sorc/AT) more dangerous when she's using her claws to attack (i forget where, but i remember reading somewhere that you can deliver touch attacks while using natural weapons for what basically amounts to the Magus' spellstrike.)

Yes, you only need +2d6 to qualify, but you do still need Rogue 3.

That sounds really powerful, but as we're talking about a 16th level NPC here, CR15, it's not that sick..

All it would take would be a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier to drop 14d6 off that damage.

Also, remember that the SA on the spell is the same type...

Yes, but once you add in how ever hard they hit on the attack, with whatever other bonuses they have; shock, etc. And they still have the rest of their iterative attacks. We all know the stories of the 20D6 shocking grasp attacks, so 1d8 + 7d6 + 20d6 + 7d6 is a pretty big hit. Especially since Arcane Tricksters happen to have another ability Impromptu Sneak Attack (Ex) that can force a target to be flat footed. And if you happen to crit, it's through the roof!

Hey. Does that mean someone able to cast CLW as an arcane spell caster with this ability could sneak attack an undead with a CLW and get an extra +Xd6 Sneak attack on the CLW? nice..

As DM I'd rule that would in fact work. Since the ability says "any spell that deals damage", not a damaging spell. A small but significant difference.

Greetings all,

I am putting together a Magus/Rogue BBEG for my group, and I came across something I need community input on.

As we all know, Magus can deliver touch spells through their weapon, no problem. But then I came across this:

So my question is this: If a Magus/Arcane Trickster lands a sneak attack on a flat-footed target, then does that mean they do the sneak attack damage on the attack and does sneak attack damage again on the channeled spell?

So a Rogue 3 / Magus 4 / AT 10 would sneak attack for +7D6 and then spellstrike shocking grasp for another +7d6?

That seems incredibly powerful to me, but RAW that's what I take it to mean; does anyone know if this has been errata'd or anything?

Thanks!

Oh, that IS nice. I'm going to add that template to Mokmurian for tonight's campaign. I've given monsters Mirror Dodge to buff them up, too. It's amazing what Displacement giving them a 50/50 chance to miss with him having the option to teleport away if they hit can do.

The Mythic Chimera Soltengrebbe from Sword of Valor was built around dual initiative, and he was a magnificent challenge for the group.

Sorry for the bit of thread necro, but I was off the forums for a while..but the game has continued! And thanks for the pointers there, Pnakotus; those are all really great ideas.

I've been chronicling our adventure in another thread, but I figured I'd post it here, too, since what I've found is relevant to this discussion, too:

Six months later
We've been playing consistently, 2-4 times a month and we'll be finishing Fortress of the Stone Giants Wednesday. The biggest challenges I've run into are first and foremost: TIME. This has been a long road. We are 13 months into playing, but just over half way done with the adventure path(s). They are about to hit level 12, and after this the levels will flow a bit faster, and as their relative level of fire power increases I expect things to move along faster. My once football team sized group has whittled down to a much more committed (and manageable) 5 person party. It's been really hard not giving them levels sooner than I'd planned, especially when they've worked hard to overcome certain challenges, but it's been absolutely vital to stick to the plan, because of this next point:

It has been absolutely necessary to adjust the mobs. If I gave out levels too easily, I'd just have to adjust them more and end up with a big power plateau at the end. At first I picked mythic monsters to drop into Rune Lords, but I feel like the mythic monsters that have been published as stand alones don't scale very well and tended to get zerged. Instead, I pick monsters from the unique monster list and replace ALL the garbage mobs with them. So for instance, every stone giant in Jorgenfist had the stats of a CR 17 Fiendish Gnarled Frost Giant Barbarians. Sometimes I just bumped the standard mobs to max HP and raised their AC by 3-5 points and that was enough.

Also I tend to layer encounters, so where a given dungeon might have 3 or 4 mini bosses before the big fight, I'll have all the lieutenants and the big bad in a single room, for a big pitched battle. I've already decided when they fight Karzoug he's going to split himself into duplicates to fight them all 1 on 1, all while having a dragon flying by breathing fire and giants throwing boulders...it *should* be an encounter worthy of mythic heroes!

In short, the plan is working, and I still think running a super campaign is worthwhile,...

Yes, sorry; it's kind of been a real time record of how it's gone down, hahahaha. Yes, I'll definitely keep updating how it goes. Unless something major happens my next update will probably be after they finally face Karzoug, which is still a ways off...the next step is the Midnight Isles!

Four months later
We've been playing consistently, 2-4 times a month and we'll be finishing Hook Mountain Wednesday. The biggest challenges I've run into are first and foremost: TIME. This has been a long road. We are 13 months into playing, but just over half way done with the adventure path(s). They are about to hit level 12, and after this the levels will flow a bit faster, and as their relative level of fire power increases I expect things to move along faster. My once football team sized group has whittled down to a much more committed (and manageable) 5 person party. It's been really hard not giving them levels sooner than I'd planned, especially when they've worked hard to overcome certain challenges, but it's been absolutely vital to stick to the plan, because of this next point:

It has been absolutely necessary to adjust the mobs. If I gave out levels too easily, I'd just have to adjust them more and end up with a big power plateau at the end. At first I picked mythic monsters to drop into Rune Lords, but I feel like the mythic monsters that have been published as stand alones don't scale very well and tended to get zerged. Instead, I pick monsters from the unique monster list and replace ALL the garbage mobs with them. So for instance, every stone giant in Jorgenfist had the stats of a CR 17 Fiendish Gnarled Frost Giant Barbarians. Sometimes I just bumped the standard mobs to max HP and raised their AC by 3-5 points and that was enough.

Also I tend to layer encounters, so where a given dungeon might have 3 or 4 mini bosses before the big fight, I'll have all the lieutenants and the big bad in a single room, for a big pitched battle. I've already decided when they fight Karzoug he's going to split himself into duplicates to fight them all 1 on 1, all while having a dragon flying by breathing fire and giants throwing boulders...it *should* be an encounter worthy of mythic heroes!

In short, the plan is working, and I still think running a super campaign is worthwhile, as long as you and your players are patient and realize you're signing on for an epic. If everyone knows what they are committing to, and understands it will take some finessing to make happen, then it is ABSOLUTELY worth the effort.

I agree, it seems plenty fair. If the player wants to invest the discoveries to make it happen, let him.

In the highly unlikely event it becomes unbalancing...have it get cut off.
Varisia has thriving curios trade, and a 5 foot monkey tail would surely fetch a hefty sum!

I haven't updated this post in a while, but everything is proceeding as planned. I've just had to use the mythic or unique version of the creatures listed instead of what's written into the module. For instance, for the Hook Mountain Massacre I've described the monsters as ogres, but used the stat blocks for Mythic Hill Giants instead.

I've also taken to reskinning some of the monsters from each to tie the narratives together, such as replacing Areelu with a resurrected Nualia and Troianka's two heads will be Xanesha and Lucretia, etc.

It's taking a bit more effort on my part, but running pretty smoothly overall.

ecw1701 wrote:

I also expected a substantially higher payoff to the Herald sub-plot. The very first thing I did when I opened the PDF was a keyword search to find any mention of it, and was also woefully disappointed. One of my players built his entire concept around his character becoming a Paladin after witnessing the early events of the campaign, so flavor wise becoming the Herald will be a logical payoff to his journey.

Even if a template could be errata'd, or if JJ could point us towards a template or even creature Paizo feels approximates what they were going for with the Herald would be fantastic. As it stands now, I'll probably just cherry pick some abilities from the stats given in Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth to give to my player.

There's not a "template or something missing from where we were going." Feel free to augment it as you wish, I suppose, but part of the reason it doesn't do more is that by the time we got to that last adventure, we were realizing that mythic at that high level was a lot better than anticipated, and that there wasn't a NEED to further bolster the PCs for the fights ahead.

I came to that realization relatively late in the game though, and wasn't really able to manage all of the expectations for what the Herald would grant as a result.

(Turns out, as I've mentioned elsewhere, doing an entire AP that's based on brand new rules is really hard!)

Thank you for taking the time to respond to all of us!

I can understand that what you intended by the end of module 5 wasn't able to work out practically in module 6. For my player's sake, he'll probably be plenty satisfied if I just describe him looking like the Hand of the Inheritor with no mechanical changes at all:

This masculine, golden-skinned angel stands taller than the greatest human champion. His halo is a spinning wheel of blades above his head, and with a gesture it flies to his left arm like a deadly spiked shield, while great wings of brilliant energy manifest from his back.

My disappointment stems more from the closing paragraph of Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth:

Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth wrote:

'In addition, other benefits of being Iomedae's herald will become apparent in the days and weeks to come, as detailed in the final adventure, "City of Locusts."'

Embolded emphasis mine. Much like Aelerith, I opened City of Locusts expecting/hoping for something, preferably something concrete near the beginning of the issue along the lines of 'If one of your PC's opted for this, this is the extra beside what we listed in the back of HotIL, a sidebar maybe...

My impression was more that this was something else that wound up on the editing room floor, in which case it would have been nice if that was recognized in time to have the quote above read more like:

Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth wrote:

'In addition, characters who choose to become Iomedae's herald will affect events in the days and weeks to come, as detailed in the final adventure, "City of Locusts."'

Thereby avoiding the assumption that there was more, mechanically, than simply what was presented in HotIL.

+10

I also expected a substantially higher payoff to the Herald sub-plot. The very first thing I did when I opened the PDF was a keyword search to find any mention of it, and was also woefully disappointed. One of my players built his entire concept around his character becoming a Paladin after witnessing the early events of the campaign, so flavor wise becoming the Herald will be a logical payoff to his journey.

Even if a template could be errata'd, or if JJ could point us towards a template or even creature Paizo feels approximates what they were going for with the Herald would be fantastic. As it stands now, I'll probably just cherry pick some abilities from the stats given in Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth to give to my player.

This is from another thread, but seems like a relevant answer here:

An Scion of Humanity Aasimar Seeker Archetype Lunar Oracle is perfect for this situation (though that is largely because all of that except the Archetype is largely perfect for *any* and *all* situations).

Make sure you grab a grab a tiger with your first revelation and you'll have a great tank. You can even make it more durable quickly by using the Aasimar favored class bonus to fast advance it and you can pick up the Celestial Servant feat to have a Celestial Tiger at 3rd.

Seeker Archetype lets you cover the trapfinding role of the scout. You have 4+INT skill points and are a CHA focused class so you make an excellent face for the group. If desired you can take Racial Heritage (Half-Elf) at 5th level so you can get paragon surge as a spell at level 6. After that you just need Skill Focus (any knowledge) and Eldritch Heritage and your ready to know all the spells at level 11.

Don't forget to grab the Noble Scion Feat (War) at level 1 so you get CHA to initiative and Prophetic Armor at 3rd so you get CHA to AC/Reflex.

Enjoy!

E6 + Mythic seems redundant to me. E6 is about keeping the game small, Mythic is about making it huge.

My players in our RotRL / Wrath fusion game are level 8 and just gained their second tier, and they are wrecking balls. Pouring more power into such tiny containers seems like it would be pretty hard to do properly.

I've been on a campaign for the establishment of rules to play APs for higher-level characters; adding mythic tiers to monsters, especially if the players aren't mythic would be a good way to accomplish that, IMHO.

Looks good to me, Crosswind. Although once again, unless you play a Maenid or something I'm overlooking, you'll need at least 8 levels of one or the other until you can access Beyond Morality, so it might have to be 8 Barb/4 Paladin/8 Barb which alters things slightly, but should still play pretty similarly.

I'm running Wrath of the Righteous along with Rise of the Rune Lords and we are loving it. It's *very* role-play intensive, though, so if you aren't good at NPC nuance, or your players aren't good RPGers it will be tough.

Also, the second chapter, Sword of Valor relies *heavily* on the mass combat rules because the players lead an army to lay siege to a city. The rules are also on the PFd20srd and are relatively painless, I just tell you as a heads up.

Your players can start at 6 with some adjustments on your part, mine were 8 when we began; they basically just won't level until midway through Sword of Valor.

All things being equal, I highly recommend the AP, though.

Agreed, Krome. I also give out levels (and tiers) at pre-determined intervals, and it works out fine. My players can get impatient, but they wouldn't be happy face rolling things with nothing else to look forward to, either.

This

@Dun do you know of a message board or website, or just from interacting with people?

Alternating between RotRL and Wrath in 2 chapter chunks as I detailed above has been working well for us. With these particular adventures I don't think I could weave stone giants attacking an outpost with Kenabres getting destroyed, but I definitely see how it would work with other APs, like setting Crimson Throne in Magnimar instead, etc.

ecw1701 wrote:

I do wonder if this build can be done better with an Arcanist, though...

I dont think so, you would lose the FCB on enchantment spells. Now if hybrid classes can take their parent class FCB's it becomes a very different matter as you get an additional +2 DC from potent magic and you still get a bloodline arcana.

I'm thinking that's what is going to happen. If they are enough of the parent class that you can't multi-class with it, it's going to be enough to qualify for FCB's.

@Pala: Cool

@Dundjinn: That is an interesting approach, it didn't occur to me to mix the components of the AP rather than run them in sequence. Well, that's not true, I'm alternating chapters with my group, I mean mixing the elements of individual chapters. I'd like to hear what you come up with.

@Wraithstrike: The point isn't having something else to do after an AP, that is easy. The point is to be able to have a single group be able to experience more of the lore of the game, especially for APs that have related elements, like RotRL and Jade Reagent / Crimson Throne / Shattered Star. As of now the APs are counting on the players metagaming knowledge to make the most of the experience, and to me that is an oversight.

True, I don't see many kobolds, but I know of at least one Goblin that's a world-breaker

Throne it would, but so would any race with a level 1 arcane SLA.
Aasimar Magus 1 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Dragon Disciple 9 works RAW.

Seems like my group is pretty much the only ones I know of who plays with them, at least I'm the most vocal proponent of them on the message boards!

It hasn't been breaking the game, though, since more spells doesn't equal more action economy...just more options. I make them pass the rolls for their 'exams' and do the odd side quest. I will say, all things being equal, it's probably a little too easy to get those levels, RAW. But any given GM can make it as hard as they want to accomplish, I suppose.

However, with the glowing exception of the Leadership feat, I try not to ban any official Paizo stuff at my table.

*And I'm not sure about PFS Qundary, I never play it. Probably so, though, since it's pretty easy to pull off and offset low level power loss for a game that's going to end at 12, anyways.

How are you qualifying for AT with only 1d6 SA?

You are right, edited.

And Quandary, Nate is right, at least regarding Eclectic and Esoteric training, both things increase actual caster level, new spells and all:
It's from Inner Sea Magic page 22. Basically you can get +1 bonus to your caster level essentially effortlessly, and +3 to 1 class / +1 to another with some leg work. You gain fame by passing knowledge checks, deeds, or whatever your DM throws at you:

Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.

Things like Magical Knack and the Orange Ioun Stone, however, do *not* give access to new spells.

This isn't a DD build, but for a versatile gish a Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 / EK 10/ AT 7 build would end up with a BAB of +14/+9/+4 which is only one less than a 20th level Rogue.

Heck they'd still be able to cast level 9 spells at 20 even without Esoteric training...and they'd get it at level 17 with it! Nearly as good a Rogue, nearly as good a Wizard, and a passable Fighter. Not bad at all.

*Note, you’d need to do something to get an extra +1d6 in sneak attack to qualify for Arcane Trickster. Pending what’s allowed at your table, this might derail this build. The simplest solution is to go 1 level of Assassin or Vivisectionist; or go Fighter 1/Wizard 1 / Rogue 3 / AT 10 / EK 5 which would get it done, but play much differently.

Also, in another thread Nate Lange posted a couple of builds that blew my mind:

although... if you're taking Scion of Humanity

Oracle 8/DD 8/Holy Vindicator 4:

:

this requires picking up Racial Heritage [kobold]... i know, that sounds crazy- it actually opens up a couple interesting dragon-related feats, and one called Scaled Disciple that lets you do DD as an oracle instead of a Sorcerer. you have to choose Life for your mystery (for HV), but you end up with +16 BAB (full iteration), CL 16 with no traits/feats (if you can take that Esoteric Training that ecw mentioned you'd be at CL 19 with 9th level spells), all the abilities of an 8th level oracle (14th for curse) with 12th level channeling (15th, if you buy a phylactery), and all the powers of an 8th level sorc/DD (12th if you buy the robe), plus 4 levels worth of HV stuff- including proficiency with all martial weapons and all armor (which you can wear with no ASF%); the hp are slightly lower (8d8+4d10+8d12) but it should be a fun build with great offense/defense for a healer, lol.

barb or ranger 1/witch 4/DD 8/EK 7:

:
make an Agathion or Archon-blooded aasimar (even though it disqualifies early EK), this time take Racial Heritage [orc], then, after a level of ranger or barbarian, go Scarred Witch Doctor: strength or transformation patron, with the Swamp Hag hex (a lvl 1 SLA). take DD the old fashioned way, except with all your casting Con based (well... by old fashioned, i mean by qualifying with your hex SLA...). +16 BAB, 16 CL (19 with that Esoteric Training), all the DD stuff, and tons of HP (with your Con as your casting stat). of course, now that i think about... there's actually no need to make an aasimar- any race that can get a +2 to Con (and counts as an orc or qualifies for racial heritage) would work

Ok here's what I've got:

Maenad
*words*

I love it. And, again, if a GM didn't allow the Maenad race, the mythic ability would get it done. Just would have to do 8-10 levels of Paladin up front and add in the Barb levels later, or vice versa. Would play differently, but the end result would be the same.

And for the other folks, I don't think just a Paladin with Rage is the idea, since Clerics can do that, too, even Oracles. The idea is the Barb goodies like Rage powers, CAGM, etc.

ecw1701 wrote:

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

I'm pretty sure that means you can have the skill ranks by 3, first DD level at 4.

That is from 3.5. In pathfinder, your max ranks in a skill is equal to your HD, but every class skill gets a +3 if you have at least one skill rank in it.

I dug a bit deeper, and you're correct:

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.
I'm pretty sure that means you can have the skill ranks by 3, first DD level at 4.

Between early entry and esoteric training it can be done, yes, but there may be better/easier ways to do it.

Aasimar Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 / EK 10 / DD 8 and (with Esoteric Training and Magical Knack) end up with 9th level spells as a 20th level caster and a BAB of +18/+13/+8/+3 not to mention 11 levels of d10 HD and 8 levels of d12.

You could also go Arcanist straight in to DD with no other dips at all.

Ragnvald Hrolfson wrote:

They trapped him merely because the Lord in Iron did not yet exist. The gods of old did not truly understand what it is to walk the path of gore.

Crush all in your path, slay your enemies and annoint yourself in the spilled ichor of their defeat. Or die yourself. He does not care so long as you do so with sword in hand and fire in your heart.

Rovagug make Orcs, Orcs make war, War makes Gorum, Rovgug made Gorum!!! Rovagug so strong when he sneeze new deity is born.All fear Rovagug power. Only deity not afraid of Rovagug maybe Groetus "The God of the End Times" because Rovagug give him job! Why worship lesser deity Rovagug embrace the Orc blood inside you.

Guess who just converted?

I know beast totem is really good what with pounce, but might there be a value in picking up Spirit totem? I feel like that paladin charisma might make it worth it? Now that I look at it though I guess that's not totally ideal damage at all.

It's a free hit at lesser, and a free 1d8 against all targets at greater. Useful for a CAGM build, but maybe not optimal. But I like the idea.

@Dundjinn (awesome name, btw) Which campaigns are you planning to use, and which bits are you planning to skip? You probably can pair out about 30-40% of any given AP as filler...especially if you drop in an especially savvy NPC to guide them.

@Paladin I do have Herolab...what function or feature did you use to do that? Since you're right, replacing the goblins from opening attack on Sandpoint in RotRL with those would be quite challenging even for a max level group. Throw in some teamwork feats for flavor and give mythic tiers to the goblin commander and you'd have quite an event on your hands.

If you allow for 3pp, we can use the maenad race to make a lawful barbarian.

With a 25 point buy our attributes can be:
STR16 DEX14 CON14 INT10 WIS10 CHA16
Or with some dumping:
STR16 DEX14 CON15 INT8 WIS10 CHA16

I'm thinking Oath of Vengeance Paladin 3/ Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 12/Oath of Vengeange Paladin5

I'll do a breakdown on feats and Rage Powers when I wake up tomorrow.

Sounds interesting, I look forward to seeing it.

I'm interested to see if there's a viable CAGM/Smite build possible, since I think that can total up to some pretty nice DPR.

We are still thinking about if my paladin is dead or can be revived.

Maybe I care too much for the image of "my kitsune" and that's why I never really considered the serpentine bloodline, I didn't even consider the infernal bloodline, it might be sweet as well but Yui is your "kitsune next door" ...:D

Split the difference: Your Paladin 'reincarnates' as a Sorcadin. ;)

And Wiggz, I nearly quoted your comments about the Kitsune sorcerer from the top 5 strongest classes thread...until I saw you were posting in this one!

I do wonder if this build can be done better with an Arcanist, though...

if you really want to keep all 5, you're really looking at a barb with a 2 level pally dip... that keeps you on track as a barb but gets you divine grace (which you can stack with superstitious), a 1/day smite (which has little effect except that you completely ignore the enemies DR), and a couple of 1d6 swift LoH (which doesn't seem like much, but it is basically a lowgrade fast healing for 1 fight...)

Makes sense to me...but can that be approximated by an Bloodrager/Pally Build? I don't think so.

This is a bit of a reach, but I wonder if a Sorcadin/Barb/DD build could be made to work. I mean I'm sure it CAN work, I mean work *better* than straight 20, or 18/2.

Right, you can dip 3 levels into something else and essentially lose nothing. If you have a lenient GM you can dip 5 with Magical Knack and still essentially lose nothing.

With the recent change to SLAs you could qualify for Mystic Theurge at level 4 and end up with Cleric 2/Wiz 1/MT 10/Wiz 5/Cleric 2 and end up with a caster level of 17 in one class and 19 in the other with Magical Knack.

Long story short, if you are willing to put in the leg work you can nearly completely nullify the penalty for multi-classing as a character.

This is a tiny bit off topic, but since we are talking about powerful characters, getting 3 free caster levels should be part of the conversation.

Indeed, but correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the selling points of Barbarians the CAGM build, or the admittedly nerfed ragelancepounce?

Although I suppose the builds you listed can still ragelancepounce; and if the new classes really do count as both for the sake of qualifying for feats, you could still have a CAGM build based around Arcanist, but I don't think they can take the hits. Maybe with some other sort of magical mitigation, hmmm.

I agree with you, however you can't pick up any paladin levels until after you get beyond morality at 3rd tier. Unless you start paladin and go barbarian, but this seems like a less plausible character arc. I did however notice I left beyond morality off as the third tier ability, which I've now added in. Derp.

Although upon reflection, I think I'd cash in Mythic Cleave in favor of Dual Path, and pick up Guardian as a secondary path for the Absorb Blow special ability. If you went 10 tiers you can pick up Cleave a bit later.

Agreed, it would probably work better with a Bloodrager. I'm still poking around with Invulnerable Rager 12 / Oath of Vengeance Paladin 8.
Being able to Smite Evil on a CAGM would be pretty nice, even if it could only be done twice a day.

I don't know Barbarians or Paladins very well, but I do know a good bit about Mythic abilities, since my group is running Wrath of the Righteous.

You can find all the mythic stuff here if you aren't familiar with it. It's fun, but the power level goes off the charts pretty darn fast against non-mythic enemies.

And i must admit that i doubt a lot of folks are playing with that part on the inner sea magic. At least i would give any one showing up with it at my table, the sceptic look.

The game has had fame rules for ages; and if the GM doesn't like it, make them jump through more hoops to earn it. But everyone complained about multi-class casters being a trap, they gave a way around it that you have to earn and people reject it. I really just don't understand.

There's already a way to get rage for a lawful character, so the barbarian alignment restriction doesn't make much sense.

Anyway, what's the idea behind this build? I'm not seeing what abilities you can get from both that would synergize really well.

I suppose that's the thought exercise: Yes, it can be done, but is it worth doing? I'm working on a build right now to see if it is even possible to do in a way that makes sense. From a mythic tiers stand point, I think you're on the hook to do at least 7-10 levels of Paladin or Barb (including dips) before switching to the other.