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ecw1701's page

RPG Superstar 2014 Star Voter. 377 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Oh, that IS nice. I'm going to add that template to Mokmurian for tonight's campaign. I've given monsters Mirror Dodge to buff them up, too. It's amazing what Displacement giving them a 50/50 chance to miss with him having the option to teleport away if they hit can do.

The Mythic Chimera Soltengrebbe from Sword of Valor was built around dual initiative, and he was a magnificent challenge for the group.


Sorry for the bit of thread necro, but I was off the forums for a while..but the game has continued! And thanks for the pointers there, Pnakotus; those are all really great ideas.

I've been chronicling our adventure in another thread, but I figured I'd post it here, too, since what I've found is relevant to this discussion, too:

Six months later
We've been playing consistently, 2-4 times a month and we'll be finishing Fortress of the Stone Giants Wednesday. The biggest challenges I've run into are first and foremost: TIME. This has been a long road. We are 13 months into playing, but just over half way done with the adventure path(s). They are about to hit level 12, and after this the levels will flow a bit faster, and as their relative level of fire power increases I expect things to move along faster. My once football team sized group has whittled down to a much more committed (and manageable) 5 person party. It's been really hard not giving them levels sooner than I'd planned, especially when they've worked hard to overcome certain challenges, but it's been absolutely vital to stick to the plan, because of this next point:

It has been absolutely necessary to adjust the mobs. If I gave out levels too easily, I'd just have to adjust them more and end up with a big power plateau at the end. At first I picked mythic monsters to drop into Rune Lords, but I feel like the mythic monsters that have been published as stand alones don't scale very well and tended to get zerged. Instead, I pick monsters from the unique monster list and replace ALL the garbage mobs with them. So for instance, every stone giant in Jorgenfist had the stats of a CR 17 Fiendish Gnarled Frost Giant Barbarians. Sometimes I just bumped the standard mobs to max HP and raised their AC by 3-5 points and that was enough.

Also I tend to layer encounters, so where a given dungeon might have 3 or 4 mini bosses before the big fight, I'll have all the lieutenants and the big bad in a single room, for a big pitched battle. I've already decided when they fight Karzoug he's going to split himself into duplicates to fight them all 1 on 1, all while having a dragon flying by breathing fire and giants throwing boulders...it *should* be an encounter worthy of mythic heroes!

In short, the plan is working, and I still think running a super campaign is worthwhile,...


Yes, sorry; it's kind of been a real time record of how it's gone down, hahahaha. Yes, I'll definitely keep updating how it goes. Unless something major happens my next update will probably be after they finally face Karzoug, which is still a ways off...the next step is the Midnight Isles!


Four months later
We've been playing consistently, 2-4 times a month and we'll be finishing Hook Mountain Wednesday. The biggest challenges I've run into are first and foremost: TIME. This has been a long road. We are 13 months into playing, but just over half way done with the adventure path(s). They are about to hit level 12, and after this the levels will flow a bit faster, and as their relative level of fire power increases I expect things to move along faster. My once football team sized group has whittled down to a much more committed (and manageable) 5 person party. It's been really hard not giving them levels sooner than I'd planned, especially when they've worked hard to overcome certain challenges, but it's been absolutely vital to stick to the plan, because of this next point:

It has been absolutely necessary to adjust the mobs. If I gave out levels too easily, I'd just have to adjust them more and end up with a big power plateau at the end. At first I picked mythic monsters to drop into Rune Lords, but I feel like the mythic monsters that have been published as stand alones don't scale very well and tended to get zerged. Instead, I pick monsters from the unique monster list and replace ALL the garbage mobs with them. So for instance, every stone giant in Jorgenfist had the stats of a CR 17 Fiendish Gnarled Frost Giant Barbarians. Sometimes I just bumped the standard mobs to max HP and raised their AC by 3-5 points and that was enough.

Also I tend to layer encounters, so where a given dungeon might have 3 or 4 mini bosses before the big fight, I'll have all the lieutenants and the big bad in a single room, for a big pitched battle. I've already decided when they fight Karzoug he's going to split himself into duplicates to fight them all 1 on 1, all while having a dragon flying by breathing fire and giants throwing boulders...it *should* be an encounter worthy of mythic heroes!

In short, the plan is working, and I still think running a super campaign is worthwhile, as long as you and your players are patient and realize you're signing on for an epic. If everyone knows what they are committing to, and understands it will take some finessing to make happen, then it is ABSOLUTELY worth the effort.


I agree, it seems plenty fair. If the player wants to invest the discoveries to make it happen, let him.

In the highly unlikely event it becomes unbalancing...have it get cut off.
Varisia has thriving curios trade, and a 5 foot monkey tail would surely fetch a hefty sum!


I haven't updated this post in a while, but everything is proceeding as planned. I've just had to use the mythic or unique version of the creatures listed instead of what's written into the module. For instance, for the Hook Mountain Massacre I've described the monsters as ogres, but used the stat blocks for Mythic Hill Giants instead.

I've also taken to reskinning some of the monsters from each to tie the narratives together, such as replacing Areelu with a resurrected Nualia and Troianka's two heads will be Xanesha and Lucretia, etc.

It's taking a bit more effort on my part, but running pretty smoothly overall.


James Jacobs wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:

I also expected a substantially higher payoff to the Herald sub-plot. The very first thing I did when I opened the PDF was a keyword search to find any mention of it, and was also woefully disappointed. One of my players built his entire concept around his character becoming a Paladin after witnessing the early events of the campaign, so flavor wise becoming the Herald will be a logical payoff to his journey.

Even if a template could be errata'd, or if JJ could point us towards a template or even creature Paizo feels approximates what they were going for with the Herald would be fantastic. As it stands now, I'll probably just cherry pick some abilities from the stats given in Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth to give to my player.

There's not a "template or something missing from where we were going." Feel free to augment it as you wish, I suppose, but part of the reason it doesn't do more is that by the time we got to that last adventure, we were realizing that mythic at that high level was a lot better than anticipated, and that there wasn't a NEED to further bolster the PCs for the fights ahead.

I came to that realization relatively late in the game though, and wasn't really able to manage all of the expectations for what the Herald would grant as a result.

(Turns out, as I've mentioned elsewhere, doing an entire AP that's based on brand new rules is really hard!)

Thank you for taking the time to respond to all of us!

I can understand that what you intended by the end of module 5 wasn't able to work out practically in module 6. For my player's sake, he'll probably be plenty satisfied if I just describe him looking like the Hand of the Inheritor with no mechanical changes at all:

This masculine, golden-skinned angel stands taller than the greatest human champion. His halo is a spinning wheel of blades above his head, and with a gesture it flies to his left arm like a deadly spiked shield, while great wings of brilliant energy manifest from his back.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

My disappointment stems more from the closing paragraph of Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth:

Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth wrote:
'In addition, other benefits of being Iomedae's herald will become apparent in the days and weeks to come, as detailed in the final adventure, "City of Locusts."'

Embolded emphasis mine. Much like Aelerith, I opened City of Locusts expecting/hoping for something, preferably something concrete near the beginning of the issue along the lines of 'If one of your PC's opted for this, this is the extra beside what we listed in the back of HotIL, a sidebar maybe...

My impression was more that this was something else that wound up on the editing room floor, in which case it would have been nice if that was recognized in time to have the quote above read more like:

Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth wrote:
'In addition, characters who choose to become Iomedae's herald will affect events in the days and weeks to come, as detailed in the final adventure, "City of Locusts."'
Thereby avoiding the assumption that there was more, mechanically, than simply what was presented in HotIL.

+10

I also expected a substantially higher payoff to the Herald sub-plot. The very first thing I did when I opened the PDF was a keyword search to find any mention of it, and was also woefully disappointed. One of my players built his entire concept around his character becoming a Paladin after witnessing the early events of the campaign, so flavor wise becoming the Herald will be a logical payoff to his journey.

Even if a template could be errata'd, or if JJ could point us towards a template or even creature Paizo feels approximates what they were going for with the Herald would be fantastic. As it stands now, I'll probably just cherry pick some abilities from the stats given in Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth to give to my player.


This is from another thread, but seems like a relevant answer here:

Anzyr wrote:

An Scion of Humanity Aasimar Seeker Archetype Lunar Oracle is perfect for this situation (though that is largely because all of that except the Archetype is largely perfect for *any* and *all* situations).

Make sure you grab a grab a tiger with your first revelation and you'll have a great tank. You can even make it more durable quickly by using the Aasimar favored class bonus to fast advance it and you can pick up the Celestial Servant feat to have a Celestial Tiger at 3rd.

Seeker Archetype lets you cover the trapfinding role of the scout. You have 4+INT skill points and are a CHA focused class so you make an excellent face for the group. If desired you can take Racial Heritage (Half-Elf) at 5th level so you can get paragon surge as a spell at level 6. After that you just need Skill Focus (any knowledge) and Eldritch Heritage and your ready to know all the spells at level 11.

Don't forget to grab the Noble Scion Feat (War) at level 1 so you get CHA to initiative and Prophetic Armor at 3rd so you get CHA to AC/Reflex.

Enjoy!


E6 + Mythic seems redundant to me. E6 is about keeping the game small, Mythic is about making it huge.

My players in our RotRL / Wrath fusion game are level 8 and just gained their second tier, and they are wrecking balls. Pouring more power into such tiny containers seems like it would be pretty hard to do properly.

I've been on a campaign for the establishment of rules to play APs for higher-level characters; adding mythic tiers to monsters, especially if the players aren't mythic would be a good way to accomplish that, IMHO.


Looks good to me, Crosswind. Although once again, unless you play a Maenid or something I'm overlooking, you'll need at least 8 levels of one or the other until you can access Beyond Morality, so it might have to be 8 Barb/4 Paladin/8 Barb which alters things slightly, but should still play pretty similarly.


I'm running Wrath of the Righteous along with Rise of the Rune Lords and we are loving it. It's *very* role-play intensive, though, so if you aren't good at NPC nuance, or your players aren't good RPGers it will be tough.

Also, the second chapter, Sword of Valor relies *heavily* on the mass combat rules because the players lead an army to lay siege to a city. The rules are also on the PFd20srd and are relatively painless, I just tell you as a heads up.

Your players can start at 6 with some adjustments on your part, mine were 8 when we began; they basically just won't level until midway through Sword of Valor.

All things being equal, I highly recommend the AP, though.


Agreed, Krome. I also give out levels (and tiers) at pre-determined intervals, and it works out fine. My players can get impatient, but they wouldn't be happy face rolling things with nothing else to look forward to, either.

Star Voter 2014

This


@Dun do you know of a message board or website, or just from interacting with people?

Alternating between RotRL and Wrath in 2 chapter chunks as I detailed above has been working well for us. With these particular adventures I don't think I could weave stone giants attacking an outpost with Kenabres getting destroyed, but I definitely see how it would work with other APs, like setting Crimson Throne in Magnimar instead, etc.


andreww wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:
I do wonder if this build can be done better with an Arcanist, though...
I dont think so, you would lose the FCB on enchantment spells. Now if hybrid classes can take their parent class FCB's it becomes a very different matter as you get an additional +2 DC from potent magic and you still get a bloodline arcana.

I'm thinking that's what is going to happen. If they are enough of the parent class that you can't multi-class with it, it's going to be enough to qualify for FCB's.


@Pala: Cool

@Dundjinn: That is an interesting approach, it didn't occur to me to mix the components of the AP rather than run them in sequence. Well, that's not true, I'm alternating chapters with my group, I mean mixing the elements of individual chapters. I'd like to hear what you come up with.

@Wraithstrike: The point isn't having something else to do after an AP, that is easy. The point is to be able to have a single group be able to experience more of the lore of the game, especially for APs that have related elements, like RotRL and Jade Reagent / Crimson Throne / Shattered Star. As of now the APs are counting on the players metagaming knowledge to make the most of the experience, and to me that is an oversight.


True, I don't see many kobolds, but I know of at least one Goblin that's a world-breaker

Throne it would, but so would any race with a level 1 arcane SLA.
Aasimar Magus 1 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Dragon Disciple 9 works RAW.


Seems like my group is pretty much the only ones I know of who plays with them, at least I'm the most vocal proponent of them on the message boards!

It hasn't been breaking the game, though, since more spells doesn't equal more action economy...just more options. I make them pass the rolls for their 'exams' and do the odd side quest. I will say, all things being equal, it's probably a little too easy to get those levels, RAW. But any given GM can make it as hard as they want to accomplish, I suppose.

However, with the glowing exception of the Leadership feat, I try not to ban any official Paizo stuff at my table.

*And I'm not sure about PFS Qundary, I never play it. Probably so, though, since it's pretty easy to pull off and offset low level power loss for a game that's going to end at 12, anyways.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
How are you qualifying for AT with only 1d6 SA?

You are right, edited.

And Quandary, Nate is right, at least regarding Eclectic and Esoteric training, both things increase actual caster level, new spells and all:
It's from Inner Sea Magic page 22. Basically you can get +1 bonus to your caster level essentially effortlessly, and +3 to 1 class / +1 to another with some leg work. You gain fame by passing knowledge checks, deeds, or whatever your DM throws at you:

Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.

Things like Magical Knack and the Orange Ioun Stone, however, do *not* give access to new spells.


This isn't a DD build, but for a versatile gish a Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 / EK 10/ AT 7 build would end up with a BAB of +14/+9/+4 which is only one less than a 20th level Rogue.

Heck they'd still be able to cast level 9 spells at 20 even without Esoteric training...and they'd get it at level 17 with it! Nearly as good a Rogue, nearly as good a Wizard, and a passable Fighter. Not bad at all.

*Note, you’d need to do something to get an extra +1d6 in sneak attack to qualify for Arcane Trickster. Pending what’s allowed at your table, this might derail this build. The simplest solution is to go 1 level of Assassin or Vivisectionist; or go Fighter 1/Wizard 1 / Rogue 3 / AT 10 / EK 5 which would get it done, but play much differently.

Also, in another thread Nate Lange posted a couple of builds that blew my mind:

nate lange wrote:

although... if you're taking Scion of Humanity

Oracle 8/DD 8/Holy Vindicator 4:
:

this requires picking up Racial Heritage [kobold]... i know, that sounds crazy- it actually opens up a couple interesting dragon-related feats, and one called Scaled Disciple that lets you do DD as an oracle instead of a Sorcerer. you have to choose Life for your mystery (for HV), but you end up with +16 BAB (full iteration), CL 16 with no traits/feats (if you can take that Esoteric Training that ecw mentioned you'd be at CL 19 with 9th level spells), all the abilities of an 8th level oracle (14th for curse) with 12th level channeling (15th, if you buy a phylactery), and all the powers of an 8th level sorc/DD (12th if you buy the robe), plus 4 levels worth of HV stuff- including proficiency with all martial weapons and all armor (which you can wear with no ASF%); the hp are slightly lower (8d8+4d10+8d12) but it should be a fun build with great offense/defense for a healer, lol.

barb or ranger 1/witch 4/DD 8/EK 7:
:
make an Agathion or Archon-blooded aasimar (even though it disqualifies early EK), this time take Racial Heritage [orc], then, after a level of ranger or barbarian, go Scarred Witch Doctor: strength or transformation patron, with the Swamp Hag hex (a lvl 1 SLA). take DD the old fashioned way, except with all your casting Con based (well... by old fashioned, i mean by qualifying with your hex SLA...). +16 BAB, 16 CL (19 with that Esoteric Training), all the DD stuff, and tons of HP (with your Con as your casting stat). of course, now that i think about... there's actually no need to make an aasimar- any race that can get a +2 to Con (and counts as an orc or qualifies for racial heritage) would work


VM mercenario wrote:

Ok here's what I've got:

Maenad
*words*

I love it. And, again, if a GM didn't allow the Maenad race, the mythic ability would get it done. Just would have to do 8-10 levels of Paladin up front and add in the Barb levels later, or vice versa. Would play differently, but the end result would be the same.

And for the other folks, I don't think just a Paladin with Rage is the idea, since Clerics can do that, too, even Oracles. The idea is the Barb goodies like Rage powers, CAGM, etc.


williamoak wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

I'm pretty sure that means you can have the skill ranks by 3, first DD level at 4.
That is from 3.5. In pathfinder, your max ranks in a skill is equal to your HD, but every class skill gets a +3 if you have at least one skill rank in it.

I dug a bit deeper, and you're correct:

You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. Level 6 is in fact the earliest you can enter DD.


Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.
I'm pretty sure that means you can have the skill ranks by 3, first DD level at 4.


Between early entry and esoteric training it can be done, yes, but there may be better/easier ways to do it.

Aasimar Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 / EK 10 / DD 8 and (with Esoteric Training and Magical Knack) end up with 9th level spells as a 20th level caster and a BAB of +18/+13/+8/+3 not to mention 11 levels of d10 HD and 8 levels of d12.

You could also go Arcanist straight in to DD with no other dips at all.


AngryOrc wrote:
Ragnvald Hrolfson wrote:

They trapped him merely because the Lord in Iron did not yet exist. The gods of old did not truly understand what it is to walk the path of gore.

Crush all in your path, slay your enemies and annoint yourself in the spilled ichor of their defeat. Or die yourself. He does not care so long as you do so with sword in hand and fire in your heart.

Rovagug make Orcs, Orcs make war, War makes Gorum, Rovgug made Gorum!!! Rovagug so strong when he sneeze new deity is born.All fear Rovagug power. Only deity not afraid of Rovagug maybe Groetus "The God of the End Times" because Rovagug give him job! Why worship lesser deity Rovagug embrace the Orc blood inside you.

Guess who just converted?

This guy.


Shimnimnim wrote:
I know beast totem is really good what with pounce, but might there be a value in picking up Spirit totem? I feel like that paladin charisma might make it worth it? Now that I look at it though I guess that's not totally ideal damage at all.

It's a free hit at lesser, and a free 1d8 against all targets at greater. Useful for a CAGM build, but maybe not optimal. But I like the idea.


@Dundjinn (awesome name, btw) Which campaigns are you planning to use, and which bits are you planning to skip? You probably can pair out about 30-40% of any given AP as filler...especially if you drop in an especially savvy NPC to guide them.

@Paladin I do have Herolab...what function or feature did you use to do that? Since you're right, replacing the goblins from opening attack on Sandpoint in RotRL with those would be quite challenging even for a max level group. Throw in some teamwork feats for flavor and give mythic tiers to the goblin commander and you'd have quite an event on your hands.


VM mercenario wrote:

If you allow for 3pp, we can use the maenad race to make a lawful barbarian.

With a 25 point buy our attributes can be:
STR16 DEX14 CON14 INT10 WIS10 CHA16
Or with some dumping:
STR16 DEX14 CON15 INT8 WIS10 CHA16

I'm thinking Oath of Vengeance Paladin 3/ Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 12/Oath of Vengeange Paladin5

I'll do a breakdown on feats and Rage Powers when I wake up tomorrow.

Sounds interesting, I look forward to seeing it.

Worst case, Make it Paladin 8 / Invulnerable Rager 12. Between the 3PP race, Beyond Morality, the ability to just houserule away alignment restrictions, and/or some other variation I haven't thought of, there really does seem to be multiple legitimate ways to get here.

I'm interested to see if there's a viable CAGM/Smite build possible, since I think that can total up to some pretty nice DPR.


Zerbe wrote:

We are still thinking about if my paladin is dead or can be revived.

Maybe I care too much for the image of "my kitsune" and that's why I never really considered the serpentine bloodline, I didn't even consider the infernal bloodline, it might be sweet as well but Yui is your "kitsune next door" ...:D

Split the difference: Your Paladin 'reincarnates' as a Sorcadin. ;)

You can also take whatever bloodline you want despite your character concept; she has free will but can't change who her ancestors were.

And Wiggz, I nearly quoted your comments about the Kitsune sorcerer from the top 5 strongest classes thread...until I saw you were posting in this one!

I do wonder if this build can be done better with an Arcanist, though...


nate lange wrote:


if you really want to keep all 5, you're really looking at a barb with a 2 level pally dip... that keeps you on track as a barb but gets you divine grace (which you can stack with superstitious), a 1/day smite (which has little effect except that you completely ignore the enemies DR), and a couple of 1d6 swift LoH (which doesn't seem like much, but it is basically a lowgrade fast healing for 1 fight...)

Makes sense to me...but can that be approximated by an Bloodrager/Pally Build? I don't think so.

This is a bit of a reach, but I wonder if a Sorcadin/Barb/DD build could be made to work. I mean I'm sure it CAN work, I mean work *better* than straight 20, or 18/2.


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Right, you can dip 3 levels into something else and essentially lose nothing. If you have a lenient GM you can dip 5 with Magical Knack and still essentially lose nothing.

With the recent change to SLAs you could qualify for Mystic Theurge at level 4 and end up with Cleric 2/Wiz 1/MT 10/Wiz 5/Cleric 2 and end up with a caster level of 17 in one class and 19 in the other with Magical Knack.

You can do some crazy things, like:

A Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 / Rogue 1 / EK 10/ AT 7 build would end up with a BAB of +14/+9/+4 which is only one less than a 20th level Rogue.
Heck they'd still be able to cast level 9 spells at 20 even without Esoteric training...and they'd get it at level 17 with it! Nearly as good a Rogue, nearly as good a Wizard, and a passable Fighter. Not bad at all.

If it were a Dragon Disciple instead you could still go Aasimar Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1 / EK 10 / DD 8 and (with Esoteric Training and Magical Knack) end up with 9th level spells as a 20th level caster and a BAB of +18/+13/+8/+3 not to mention 11 levels of d10 HD and 8 levels of d12.

Long story short, if you are willing to put in the leg work you can nearly completely nullify the penalty for multi-classing as a character.

This is a tiny bit off topic, but since we are talking about powerful characters, getting 3 free caster levels should be part of the conversation.


Indeed, but correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the selling points of Barbarians the CAGM build, or the admittedly nerfed ragelancepounce?

Although I suppose the builds you listed can still ragelancepounce; and if the new classes really do count as both for the sake of qualifying for feats, you could still have a CAGM build based around Arcanist, but I don't think they can take the hits. Maybe with some other sort of magical mitigation, hmmm.


I agree with you, however you can't pick up any paladin levels until after you get beyond morality at 3rd tier. Unless you start paladin and go barbarian, but this seems like a less plausible character arc. I did however notice I left beyond morality off as the third tier ability, which I've now added in. Derp.

Although upon reflection, I think I'd cash in Mythic Cleave in favor of Dual Path, and pick up Guardian as a secondary path for the Absorb Blow special ability. If you went 10 tiers you can pick up Cleave a bit later.

Absorb Blow (Su):

As an immediate action, whenever you take hit point damage from a single source (such as a dragon's breath, a spell, or a weapon), you can expend one use of mythic power to reduce the damage you take from that source by 5 per tier (to a minimum of 0 points of damage taken). If you have another ability or effect that reduces damage (such as protection from energy), reduce the damage with the absorb blow ability before applying any other damage-reducing effects. For every 10 points of damage that this ability prevents, for 1 minute you gain DR 1/epic and 5 points of resistance against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. The DR and resistances stack with any other DR and resistances that you have.


Agreed, it would probably work better with a Bloodrager. I'm still poking around with Invulnerable Rager 12 / Oath of Vengeance Paladin 8.
Being able to Smite Evil on a CAGM would be pretty nice, even if it could only be done twice a day.

I don't know Barbarians or Paladins very well, but I do know a good bit about Mythic abilities, since my group is running Wrath of the Righteous.

Assuming 3 tiers, the Mythic Path and abilities I'd suggest are:

Besides the Base Mythic abilities everyone gets: Hard to kill, mythic power, surge +1d6, Amazing initiative, Recuperation

Mythic Feats: Cleave (Mythic), Power Attack (Mythic)
Champion Mythic Path / Sudden strike
1st-Tier Path Abilities: flash of rage, mythic rage

3rd-Tier Path Abilities: beyond morality

If more than 3 tiers, pick up Mythic Smite, titans rage, to the death.

You can find all the mythic stuff here if you aren't familiar with it. It's fun, but the power level goes off the charts pretty darn fast against non-mythic enemies.


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Cap. Darling wrote:


And i must admit that i doubt a lot of folks are playing with that part on the inner sea magic. At least i would give any one showing up with it at my table, the sceptic look.

You know, I keep hearing that, but I don't understand it:
ecw1701 wrote:


It's from Inner Sea Magic page 22. Basically you can get +1 bonus to your caster level essentially effortlessly, and +3 to 1 class / +1 to another with some leg work. You gain fame by passing knowledge checks, deeds, or whatever your DM throws at you:

Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches
5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase
your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to
your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.

Not too bad, and surely someone who has earned the right to become a mythic hero would already be turning heads at their social club. ;)

The game has had fame rules for ages; and if the GM doesn't like it, make them jump through more hoops to earn it. But everyone complained about multi-class casters being a trap, they gave a way around it that you have to earn and people reject it. I really just don't understand.


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:

There's already a way to get rage for a lawful character, so the barbarian alignment restriction doesn't make much sense.

Anyway, what's the idea behind this build? I'm not seeing what abilities you can get from both that would synergize really well.

I suppose that's the thought exercise: Yes, it can be done, but is it worth doing? I'm working on a build right now to see if it is even possible to do in a way that makes sense. From a mythic tiers stand point, I think you're on the hook to do at least 7-10 levels of Paladin or Barb (including dips) before switching to the other.


I never said it was standard, I said it was *possible*. Without any houseruling to boot. I also don't think there's anything innately anti-Paladin about being a Barbarian. Heck a wild (wo)man who finds religion is the poster child for what it means to be a Paladin!

Spoiler Alert: There's even a Succubus who worships Desna NPC in Wrath of the Righteous...and she looks pretty darn sweet if I do say so myself.


This thread got me thinking about whether or not it's possible to make a Paladin/Barbarian build that was stronger than either individually. And yes, it is possible to do, but whether or not it's *worth* doing is another thing all together. I'd appreciate your input, so please let me know what you think:

Ulti-Martial: Paladin Barbarian Build (Thought Exercise).


This thread got me thinking about whether or not it's possible to make a Paladin/Barbarian build that was stronger than either individually. And yes, it is possible to do, but whether or not it's *worth* doing is another thing all together. I'd appreciate your input, so please let me know what you think:

Ulti-Martial: Paladin Barbarian Build (Thought Exercise).


Since Paladins and Barbarians kept coming up in the 'Strongest Martial Class' discussion, it got me thinking about how to combine the two and see if it's possible to make the strongest possible martial class.

And yes, it *is* possible to play a Paladin/Barbarian: The third tier universal mythic ability 'Beyond Morality' it's *theoretically* possible to have a Paladin/Barbarian single character build. Or combine with Druid, Monk, Barbarian/Anti-Paladin, or anything else as long as it's not a class variant:

Beyond Morality (Ex):

"You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment. If you violate the code of ethics of any of your classes, you might still lose access to certain features of such classes, subject to GM discretion. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If a class restricts you from casting spells with an alignment descriptor, you can cast such spells without restrictions or repercussions. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you. If you lose this effect, you revert to your previous alignment."

I'm working on the build, but I figured I'd put it out to the community first since I'm far from an expert on either class. Is it even worth doing? Can a Paladin / Barbarian / something else top it's single class cousins?

Just be sure to include at least 3 mythic tiers in your build, which can realistically be done by about level 10 or so.


Is working fine for me on Chrome.


I absolutely *love* the concept; charm effects have kept the group I'm running alive in RotRL more times than I can count. So much so that the next character I play when I'm done GMing will be charm focused.

The build looks solid, but I say take Improved Initiative as your level 1 feat, or at least earlier enough that you'll start play with it. Action economy is the name of the game, and if you go first and take theirs away, it's the most devastating thing you can do. Especially if you land a charm spell and use their action economy against them.

I always stack every Initiative effect I can get: Reactionary Trait, Greensting Scorpion Familiar, Improved Initiative, and stack as much dex as you can stand.


CAGM Barbarian wedged in a doorway is my vote.


Cap. Darling wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
andreww wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:

eldritch knight: Trapper Ranger 1/Wizard 5 (teleportation)/EK10/AA4 is the most powerful character you can play.

...
I am curious about this guy. Have you played him all the way or is it a level 20 construction. I ask because he seem to me to be signicantly behind the specialists all the way. And he also seem to be quite MAD. And if i am wrong in the stuff i just said wouldent divination(forsigth) be a better School?
Teleportation School will give him a swift action teleport which is a bit like a form of mini pounce although given the low wizard level you cannot go far.
i thought that didnt work with the DDervish feats, since it was like the shadowdancers "its totally DimDoor but not ACTUALLY DimDoor, so no dervishing for you"

this

An even if he can get the GM to buy it with the DD feats it will be. Even more feats he will not use to actually be a good archer or caster. It is bassically a character that can do almost what 3 focused characters 3 levels below him can do. Exept he can only do one of the things.
I can see the anti magic field on a stick is a Nice trick but what keeps the baddie from moving out of the anti magic field and send a Spell in return?

Drop one level of Wiz and pick up a level of Dervish of Dawn Bard. Then you get Dervish Dance for free and have those feats to spend elsewhere. With Esoteric Training from Inner Sea Magic you'd still get level 9 spells; with Magical Knack you'd still have a CL of 20, for a net power loss of 0.


I clicked for the Pathfinder version of the Monster Advancer, but like I said...it's pretty buggy.

There's a 'quickened' version that lets you add templates quickly, but no other modifications like adding class levels, etc.

You can find the quickend version here here.


Swashbucklers are CHA based, as is the number of rounds you can Battle Dance for, although it's an admittedly weak bonus. And the build uses light or no armor, since there are stiff penalties for medium or above. Cast Bull's Strength if need be, or in a pinch get a friend to cast ant haul on you or to carry you pack for you.


It's probably a bit obvious, but I'm very emotionally invested in this concept! Again, it would take some effort from the DM, but a group could do Rune Lords, Crimson Throne and Second Darkness earning roughly one level per chapter before starting Shattered Star around level 18 or so. This would definitely take a group that was more committed to plot and story than to power gaming, though!

Another way would be to give 1-2 levels per chapter, having them hit max level around the end of the second AP they run and spend the next two at max level. Still going to be some work for the DM (no way around that) but the character would get to spend some time using their max level abilities. Once again, you've need players who are engaged in the narrative since they wouldn't have new powers to look forward to. And in the (admittedly unlikely) event they still wanted more at the end of Shattered Star, you do Wrath of the Righteous straight through so that they can earn their 10 mythic tiers, and have them retire not just as legends, but as gods.

At any rate, I did some playing around with the Monster Advancer (full disclosure, it does seem to just stop working at random) and I took a crack at advancing Goblins for a group that was starting Rise of the Rune Lords *after* completing another AP. My logic was if I can make goblins a challenge to level 20 characters, any mob can be made into a challenge.

I adjusted them to 15 HD Goblin Barbarians:

Goblin, Barbarian 10 CR 13
Usually Neutral Evil Small Humanoid Ref (Goblinoid)
Init +2 (+2 dex)
AC 13 FF 11 Touch 13
(+1 size, +2 Dex)
HD: 25
HP: 207 (15d8+45, 10d12+30)
Fort +15 Ref +14 Will +6
Speed 30ft
Base Atk +21 Grp +19
Attack: Morningstar +24 1d6+2
Attack: Short bow +24 1d4+0
Full Attack: Morningstar +24/+19/+14/+9/+4 1d6+2
Full Attack: Short bow +24/+19/+14/+9/+4 1d4+0
Space 5 ft. (1 squares) Reach 5 ft. (1 squares)
Abilities Str 15(+2) Dex 15(+2) Con 16(+3) Int 12(+1) Wis 6(-2) Cha 6(-2)
Stat Points Gained From Advancement: 6
Skill Points: 104
Skills: Climb +8, Craft(Weaponsmithing) +7, Handle Animal +4, Hide +8, Intimidate +4, Jump +8, Listen +4, Move Silently +8, Ride +8, Spot +4, Survival +4, Swim +8
Gear:
Total Cost of Gear: 0gp
Darkvision(Su): 60ft
Rage(Ex): A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day.
Level Uses/day
1 1
4 2
8 3
12 4
16 5
20 6
In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian's hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character's (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can't charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below). A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else's action.

Improved Uncanny Dodge(Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Trap Sense(Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise by +1 every three barbarian levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level). Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

Uncanny Dodge(Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
Fast movement(Ex): A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian's speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Damage Reduction(Ex): 1/-
Illiteracy(Ex): Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak. A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.

I'd probably boost their AC a bit, but I think a dozen of these would be a challenge even to level 17+ characters.


I'm not sure about all 5, but I have to say Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge has to be one. Besides early entry from SLAs, if you use the Esoteric Training rules from Inner Sea Magic, you can get level 9 Wizard and Cleric spells.

With the Spell Synthesis ability that means you can cast Wish and Miracle at the same time; and if casting the two strongest spells in the game simultaneously isn't an 'I win' button, I don't know what is.


You're welcome ;)

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