ecw1701's page

Yes, James has said that the Orange Ioun Stone and Magical Knack don't stack.

However, IF your GM uses the guild rules with eclectic training and esoteric training from inner sea magic... you could go Wizard 6 / Cleric 4 with your +3 class going Cleric and your +1 class going Wizard giving you double 9s in both.

I've got a lvl 3 Cleric that I'm seriously considering going into MT with, just to get the practical knowledge of it's ins and outs to write an effective guide. And if your GM won't allow guild rules, it will be a pretty hard climb.

P.S.: Don't forget to focus on spells without a somatic component so that you aren't failing 30% of the time:

Go here and set the somatic line to 0. This will give you a list of the 78 no-somatic spells... Cheers!

See my post above; James answered all that.

And boom goes the dynamite!
Here are my questions, with James answers interspersed:

There are basically three questions…four actually:
1. Can a multi-classed Samsaran use this ability more than once? Is the ability tied to *character* level one, or *class* level one? If a Samsaran Wizard takes a level of Cleric, can they select their bonus spells at that time, since they are still level one as a Cleric. It would seem as written this is the case, although the # of spells they get would be defined by their base INT/WIS/CHR.

1) Nope. It's tied to character level 1. The flavor is that you've had this ability in your past lives, and if you don't have it at 1st level, you just don't have it.

2. If the answer is it only applies at *character* level one, and not *class* level one, what about multi-class Samsarans? If I am building an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight, and I take the melee class first and the caster class later, does that mean I am just out of luck? This does not seem fair, since it would require Samsaran characters to take an inoptimal, squishy approach to their builds. Traits like Magical Knack only kick in after multi-classing, or things like the Fertile Soil Oread trait don’t have any connection to character level, and that seems to work just fine.

2) If you're planning on multiclassing and want to use this ability, make sure you take your spellcasting class at 1st level unless you have a generous GM.

3. Does the ability only allow you to take spells from ONE other class? AKA if you are a Cleric, and you take a Paladin spell, you can *only* take Paladin spells. RAW this does not seem to be the case to me, I would say the only restriction is the Arcane/Divine limitation, and total # of bonus spells; which list it comes from seems superfluous.

3) Just one other class. Again... unless you have a generous GM.

4. And finally, does this allow you take early entry into spells by taking something like Haste as a 2nd level spell, since Summoners get it at that point. I do not believe so, since it does say ‘another spellcasting class list’ which would seem to me you can’t take something that is on your own list; but it comes up frequently, so I may as well ask.

4) It would indeed let you do that, but the spell still functions as a lower level spell, which can have some bad side effects. (As another side note... summoner spell lists are kinda messed up and I've been kinda silently hoping they'd get errataed for a long time now, but that ship's mostly sailed, it seems...)

Not the answers I'd hoped for, but definitely the answers I foresaw.
Thanks everyone for putting in your 2 cp!

ecw1701 wrote:

Mr. Jacobs,

I made a post in the rules forum about the about the Samsaran Mystic Past Life ability which sparked quite a debate. I’m hoping I can get some clarification from you about what the truth is:

Mystic Past Life: You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained.

There are basically three questions…four actually:
1. Can a multi-classed Samsaran use this ability more than once? Is the ability tied to *character* level one, or *class* level one? If a Samsaran Wizard takes a level of Cleric, can they select their bonus spells at that time, since they are still level one as a Cleric. It would seem as written this is the case, although the # of spells they get would be defined by their base INT/WIS/CHR.

2. If the answer is it only applies at *character* level one, and not *class* level one, what about multi-class Samsarans? If I am building an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight, and I take the melee class first and the caster class later, does that mean I am just out of luck? This does not seem fair, since it would require Samsaran characters to take an inoptimal, squishy approach to their builds. Traits like Magical Knack only kick in after multi-classing, or things like the Fertile Soil Oread trait don’t have any connection to character

...

Not the answers I'd hoped for, but they answers I foresaw coming.

Thank you for clarifying!

And my interpretation would be it does nothing for a non-caster at character level one, but would apply when they took their first level of any spellcasting class.

So, how exactly does this trait effect PCs whose first level is not in a spellcasting class?

That is definitely one of the things that needs clarification.

Mr. Jacobs,
I made a post in the rules forum about the about the Samsaran Mystic Past Life ability which sparked quite a debate. I’m hoping I can get some clarification from you about what the truth is:

Mystic Past Life: You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained.

There are basically three questions…four actually:
1. Can a multi-classed Samsaran use this ability more than once? Is the ability tied to *character* level one, or *class* level one? If a Samsaran Wizard takes a level of Cleric, can they select their bonus spells at that time, since they are still level one as a Cleric. It would seem as written this is the case, although the # of spells they get would be defined by their base INT/WIS/CHR.

2. If the answer is it only applies at *character* level one, and not *class* level one, what about multi-class Samsarans? If I am building an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight, and I take the melee class first and the caster class later, does that mean I am just out of luck? This does not seem fair, since it would require Samsaran characters to take an inoptimal, squishy approach to their builds. Traits like Magical Knack only kick in after multi-classing, or things like the Fertile Soil Oread trait don’t have any connection to character level, and that seems to work just fine.

3. Does the ability only allow you to take spells from ONE other class? AKA if you are a Cleric, and you take a Paladin spell, you can *only* take Paladin spells. RAW this does not seem to be the case to me, I would say the only restriction is the Arcane/Divine limitation, and total # of bonus spells; which list it comes from seems superfluous.

4. And finally, does this allow you take early entry into spells by taking something like Haste as a 2nd level spell, since Summoners get it at that point. I do not believe so, since it does say ‘another spellcasting class list’ which would seem to me you can’t take something that is on your own list; but it comes up frequently, so I may as well ask.

I would say I don’t think it is going to be game-breaking either way, since even someone who built their character around taking a level of Wiz/Cleric/Bard to get bonus spells based on their INT/WIS/CHR would still only be looking at about a total of 6-12 extra spells with no extra spells slots, no improved action economy, and still be extremely MAD. Not to mention they couldn’t get to level 9 casting in all 3, or even 2 of those classes, so the overall balance would be maintained.

At any rate, I hope you can help clarify these questions. Thank you.

This is the rule forum. But not all rules are clear cut. After all based on RAW Stealth is worse than useless in cases where it should shine.

In the end this all boils down to how the GM views their campaign. And honestly this thread should have been worded differently and placed in the Advice or Suggestions Forum.

We probably won't see anything near an official word on this until Samsarens become available in PFS. Or more widely available.

It all is, as I have stated, a semantics based argument. And honestly I am glad it isn't as bad as one of the races from one of the 3.5 splat books. It left such wide interpretation to where you could basically give a Wizard or Cleric access to nearly every chain of spells if you had a high enough stat and your GM didn't lock it down.

I put it here because I'm looking for a rules adjudication, not build advice.

But you're right, it probably won't be a big deal until Samsarans enter PFS...but I'm going to ask the question on the 'Ask James' thread. If he replies, I'll come back and post it here.

We are saying the amount of spells are locked in at character level one. but the spells are gained at Class level one.

*Class level one / when you reach the level you could cast the spell in question, yes. But I'm sure that's what you meant.

So say at Character Level one I have a 15 in all 3 mental stats. That means even if I raise one of them they would still be locked in as being 3 additional spells added to the spell lists.

Either way it is still one of those either way it isn't as game breaking as people think. And really only good on Prepared Casters.

It does state 1st level of a spellcasting class.

The only thing locked in is the number of bonus spells per Stat.

It is an argument of Semantics.

+1

But I do appreciate all the points of view, and you all make very compelling arguments; the fact that it's easy to argue either position or interpretation makes an official ruling even more important.

The first level of the class is what it goes by. Now the GM can extend this to the first spellcasting class, but the RAW and RAI are clear.

Quote:

These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level.

If the spells are set according to what you can do at first level that seems pretty clear. I don't see a way around that. Now since the spells are based on the type of caster you also are at that time, that also sets things up for whatever you are playing at that time.

1st level=level 1.

If they had said your first caster level that would be different, and allow a little more leeway.

Right, the *number* of spells would be set, based on your primary casting stat, I am not arguing that point. But it even says: "These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character.", which means it is allowing for future use beyond what you can do at level one.

At any rate, I hope someone on Paizo Olympus sees this and can render an authoritative judgement. I fully expect they'll rule that it only applies to one class but hopefully they allow multi-classed characters to do it. Traits like Magical Knack don't come into play until after you multiclass, so I don't see this being any different.

Obviously I stand by my interpretation of it being possible with more than one class as valid both RAW and RAI. It even fits with the fluff of several past lifetimes as an adventurer.

The way you are saying it means that a Martial/Caster multiclass has to take an inoptimal route to get the benefit of this trait.

Personally I feel this is one of those that needs reworded.

It does seem that inserting "First character level" or "First class level" would pretty much knock it out.

If it's first character level, Rumpin is right and you can only take it once; if it's class level, then we are right and you theoretically could do it 3 times (for int, wis, and chr as you pointed out).

This really comes down to GM fiat.

Though I have to say something about the Doctor makes me think of him as a Pacifist Cavalier without a Mount (unless the T.A.R.D.I.S. counts). Or a Bard or Battle Herald Build.

Mebbe.

I see the Doctor a lot like Gandalf. If you think about it, Gandalf really cast very few spells; hell he beat the Balrog to death with a sword. But it was his knowledge and longevity that really made him powerful. Always being one step ahead, with one foot into the next world, as it were. Same with the Doctor; he was waist deep in the Time war, and he was the last man standing for a reason.

But since there are no sonic screwdrivers in Pathfinder, a fireball may have to do, lol.

ecw1701 wrote:

RumpinRufus wrote:

You take the trait at level 1. It adds spells to the spell list of your current class.

It's a one-time thing, you only get to add spells to your list once (at first level.) The interpretation that you could use this ability multiple times for different classes makes no more sense than saying you can use it multiple times for the same class, adding every arcane or divine spell to your spell list.

Oh, I don't agree at all.

Like take this example from the Oread race entry:
"Fertile Soil Oread sorcerers with the verdant bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities. Oread clerics with the Plant domain use their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level. This racial trait replaces earth affinity."

There is no reason to say a character that started as a level 1 monk for instance, and then picked up a level of Cleric would't get the benefit of that racial trait. Doesn't say it RAW and I personally don't think RAI.

Taking it multiple times for one class wouldn't work because it's still the same base stat. But as Azaelas said, I think it *would* work for Int / Wis /Chr separately.

Look at the verbs - "Oread sorcerers... treat their Charisma as 2 points higher", "Oread clerics... use their domain power and spells". These are always active. The Samsaran ability, however says "You can add... to the spell list of your current spellcasting class." This is clearly an ability that is used only once, when you initially take the trait.

I mean, it explicitly says, "The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level." At level 1, you only have one current spellcasting class, and only one key modifier.

There's simply no way to read the trait that allows you to add spells to a spell list for a class that you don't have. You can't take your first level in Cleric and decide you'll add Bard spells to your Wizard class list (because...

Except: When you take your first level of the second class, you are in fact first level.

Hence the debate. If it said first *character* level, or first hit die, or even first *class* level, it would be a non-issue.
But it doesn't...so it is very much debatable.

I'd like to reiterate, though, we are talking about a total of 6-10 extra spells known, with no increase in spell slots or action economy, so it's not exactly game breaking either way (though I suppose Mystic Theurge abilities muddy that somewhat).

You take the trait at level 1. It adds spells to the spell list of your current class.

It's a one-time thing, you only get to add spells to your list once (at first level.) The interpretation that you could use this ability multiple times for different classes makes no more sense than saying you can use it multiple times for the same class, adding every arcane or divine spell to your spell list.

Oh, I don't agree at all.

Like take this example from the Oread race entry:
"Fertile Soil Oread sorcerers with the verdant bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities. Oread clerics with the Plant domain use their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level. This racial trait replaces earth affinity."

There is no reason to say a character that started as a level 1 monk for instance, and then picked up a level of Cleric would't get the benefit of that racial trait. Doesn't say it RAW and I personally don't think RAI.

Taking it multiple times for one class wouldn't work because it's still the same base stat. But as Azaelas said, I think it *would* work for Int / Wis /Chr separately.

Well I'm going to give it a shot, lol.
I also think a Samsaran Sorcerer - Pathfinder Savant could be a pretty good approximation, too. A Bard is a good start, but it's doesn't have enough raw power. The Doctor doesn't throw around fireballs, but he IS very powerful.

Seems to me the keys to doing it are a large toolbox of skills, spells, and abilities, and a GM that can accept out of the box thinking. Like the kind that rewards XP for trapping, outsmarting, or plain ol' avoiding fights, rather than just laying waste to things.

Still, pending if we ever get an official word on this (and I'd really appreciate it if you marked the OP as a faq candidate), combined with Esoteric Training it really would make a Mystic Theurge manageable. It would still be a long climb, and rightly so for the same of game balance. but if you made it to the end of the road you'd have quite a character to show for all your trouble. Mix in a few mythic tiers and you just might be an actual Timelord, lol.

I wouldn't necessarily deny a player who wanted to do that, since they'd suffer from a MAD character who was behind the power curve. But if it made them enjoy the game more, why the hell not, lol.

My character concept is basically Doctor Who. A Samsaran Cleric with the War/Tactics and Travel/Exploration (sub) Domains, and a Wizard specializing in Divination. Multi-Class into Mystic Theurge, join a guild and ultimately end up with Double 9 casting thanks to Esoteric Training.

I'm in the process of working it out with the DM, but I am not going to tell the party members who and what I am; I'll just have all these random skills and spells that shouldn't be possible, but it is, RAW. The character won't be a game breaking powerhouse, since the Doctor's number one weapon is his mind. But being able to cast a simultaneous Wish and Miracle at lvl 20 due to the MT cap stone is definitely the 'I win' button, ;)

While I freely admit my mind is clouded by my own power gaming, even if I was DMing I'd interpret the rule as follows:
I'd assume anyone who intends to multiclass is going to know that in advance when they set up their stats. So at level 1, they pick the 3, 4, or 5 bonus spells they'd get for their primary stat/casting class.
When they take their first level of the next casting class, they choose the 3, 4, or 5 spells they get then. And this would only work if they multiclassed Arcane/Divine; there would be no practical benefit of being a Wizard/Witch or Ranger/Cleric.

I personally wouldn't limit it to just one spell list; they still will only get 5 extra arcane or divine spells known, and no increase in spell per day/level. Doesn't seem that game breaking to me.

*Edit: I wouldn't allow it as a loophole to get early entry into spells, though; since it clearly says 'from another spell list'; aka things you can't cast at all.

Especially since you still have to deal with the slowed spell progression drawbacks of multiclassing in the first place. So not only does it not imbalance things, IMHO, but it fits the flavor of a character who's supposedly had countless lives and experiences in times past.

I would argue any class with a spell list, yes.
*But I think being +2 Int/Wis Samsarans make pretty poor primary melee characters; but there are builds you could do to pull it off for sure.

Although what you said speaks to my point: I am arguing that a hypothetical Samsaran Bard/Cleric *could* take arcane spells based on their Chr (Bards cast by Charisma, right) and Cleric spells based on their wisdom.

If you think about it, this might not end up being that overly powerful without them being very MAD.

I am planning a Samsaran Mystic Theurge for our mythic playtest, and the outcome of this obviously will have a big impact on what the character can and and can't do.

Well I know how *I'd* rule it, but I'm playing in this campaign and not GMing it. That's why I want as official a ruling as possible to be armed with going forward.

But I'd say the player in question needs to decide the spells before they take the class. Personally I'm pretty OCD when it comes to character planning, so I know from the beginning what I'm going to do for all 20 levels; but if I had a player who rolled a Samsaran melee type (for what? LOL) and then decided to add a primary caster, I'd have then pick the spells right then; since it's still their first caster level.

So a 10 Samsaran Bard who wanted to add a level of Cleric would pick all their cleric spells then, but they couldn't cast them till they were the appropriate level, of course.

See, I interpret 'your current class' as whatever level you most recently took. AKA a lvl 1 Fighter, lvl 1 Wizard is 'currently' a Wizard.
The same reason I'd say a multi-class Samsaran could claim this ability, even if they didn't take a caster class at lvl 1.

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I apologize if this has been asked elsewhere, but I can't seem to locate it: Does the Mystic Past Life ability work for multiple classes? RAW it would seem to me that it does.

Mystic Past Life: You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained.

It says all this happens at level 1; so it seems to me a Samsaran Wizard/Cleric would get to add both Divine and Arcane spells, based on their lvl 1 stats, probably at character creation. I see a lot of debate as to whether or not you can only take spells from 1 other class or multiples; has this ability been officially errata'd anywhere?

Thanks!

Suzaku wrote:

Wait King Arthur and the round tables were bunch of low level fighters. How are they Mythic?

Where did you get the idea that King Arthur, Sir Lancelot du Lac and company were low level? I'm curious. For that matter, when you say "low level" what do you mean?

+1

In case you missed it (or I missed it when someone put it here) the playtest officially begins next Tuesday the 14th.

Are wrote:

Just to be clear: When you say 15th-level with tier 5, do you mean "10 class levels and 5 tiers", or "15 class levels and 5 tiers"?

Question edited for clarity.

I mean 15 class levels and 5 tiers. But I'm also interested to find out how a character with 10 class levels and 5 tiers does against a CR 22 encounter. And all the possible variations in between and to either side.

It almost seems like the best way to test these rules is to roll up a base character at 10 and that same character at 15. Then take each with 2, 5, and 10 mythic tiers and play out some fights. See where your 6 variations shine, and where they get steamrolled.

Optionally, you can then bump yourself to 20 with 10 tiers and proceed to bring order to (aka terrorize) the local kingdoms.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thank you for keeping us in the loop.
And I reiterate my previous point that while the delay is unfortunate, I'm sure the playtest will be awesome when it arrives.
A late product is only late until it arrives; a bad product is bad forever.
Have a safe and enjoyable trip!

Esoteric training from the Innersea magic guild rules will get you +3/+1 caster levels so you could go 5/5 and end up with lvl 9 casting in one and 8 in the other

ecw1701 wrote:

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand then I read Jason's post and threw up a lot.

What the hell? What is there to "throw up" about?

Having to wait 2 more weeks, and consequently having to rearrange my group's campaign and scheduled game time again, since we've been already been waiting for almost a month.

I'll live, and I'm sure the playtest will be great when it gets here. It's just a drag, is all.

The playtest is done...now they just need to edit it and make it look pretty. They care about us <sniff>

Am I the only one who read this as the playtest is done, aka finished and I missed it? Because I think I threw up in my mouth a little bit.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand then I read Jason's post and threw up a lot.

BTW Mythic is not post 20 rules; by all accounts you can start at lvl 1.

Well FYI here is what happened...

Battle began, I cast prismatic sphere on myself. Tarrasque tried to attack through my sphere. All the effects kicked in, he saved against most but DID go insane, take acid damage (I think) AND was teleported to another plane of exsistence!. Washed hands, went home a hero and didn't lose a single hit point!! LOL!

Later we decided to go after the thing using astral travel abilities and as the campaign ended our characters are chasing it across the muiltiverse trying to drive it to hell!

Good on you, mate.

I noticed this bit in there while talking about the Aegis Inquisitor:
Eldritch Heritage (3rd): This feat is okay for the 1st level Bloodline abilities, but are you really going to be using your claws in combat (should they be from the bloodline you select) when you have so many other options? It will make those unarmed strikes more effective.
Improved Eldritch Heritage (11th): If you have two feats to burn, this isn’t a bad selection if you want to take the 9th level bloodline powers of either the Abyssal or Orc bloodlines for a +2 to your Strength (bumps up to +6 by 17th level for a +3 to hit and damage). However, you can get strong increases to both hit and damage without burning two feats to get them.

I assume that is a copy/paste mistake from something about Sorcerors?

P.S.: If you cover PrCs, I'd be interested in your take on the Gray Gardner class.

IF your GM uses the guild rules with eclectic training and esoteric training from inner sea magic... you could go Oracle 5 / Sorcerer 5 with your +3 class going Oracle and your +1 class going Sorcerer giving you 9th level Oracle spells / 8th lvl Sorcerer spells at 20...or vice versa. Cleric 6 / Wizard 4 would give you double 9s in both.

I've got a lvl 3 Cleric that I'm seriously considering going into MT with, just to get the practical knowledge of it's ins and outs to write an effective guide. But yeah, Sorcerer / Oracle MT takes an already difficult build and makes it even harder. And if your GM won't allow guild rules, it's a full blown exercise in futility.

P.S.: Don't forget to focus on spells without a somatic component so that you aren't failing 30% of the time:

Go here and set the somatic line to 0. This will give you a list of the 78 no-somatic spells... Cheers!

Newp.
And really, why would their be? The player's enjoyment is what really matters, the fluff is whatever you want it to be.

If he wanted to fight with a magic pixie wand that he inherited from a long lost grandmother, or play a gunslinger named 'sarcastro' who relied exclusively on harsh language, it should be good game.

As long as it doesn't break the game, it's legit.

Have you seen this guide to the EK?

It might help give you some direction, and insights into the pros and cons of each build.

Well, since no one has said this (since perhaps it's too obvious) Battle Oracle with the Lame curse pretty much sells itself from an effectiveness standpoint. I've been looking around for a good TWF Barb build, but the consensus seems to be between Barbs being a bit feat starved, and basically built for 2hw fighting it just makes more sense to do instead of TWF.

I recently stumbled across this Rage Prophet Build that looks pretty good, but I haven't played it myself.

*Side note, I don't want to derail the thread (especially since I have the same question) but I'm wondering if Magus/Inquisitor could be pulled off effectively, either.

IF your GM uses the guild rules with eclectic training and esoteric training from inner sea magic... you could go Magus 6 / Cleric 14 with your +3 class going cleric and your +1 class going Magus giving you 9th level Cleric spells at 20

I'm in the same boat in my current campaign to tank and heal, but I love melee fighting and arcane spells. I am interested to see how this thread pans out, since I'd like to play a Magus but it seems like you'll be too far behind the power curve to be good at either melee or healing. Personally I am leaning towards pure cleric going into Grey Gardner at lvl 9. Bane (Double Bane, in my case) with constant sneak attacks due to Gang Up and the other rogue in my party *should* equal things getting ripped up pretty nicely. I'm taking the War/Tactics sub domain so nearly full cleric buffs with a rotating choice of combat feats should be a lot of fun. I'm only lvl 3 right now; but so far, so good.

Yes, but the Animal Domain gives you a pet at -3 levels, so I suppose you could afford to take a 1 level dip without shooting yourself in the foot.
Anything more than 2, and the companion starts to become an exercise in futility.

So if you plan on multi-classing, or going into a PrC, Animal/Feather might not be the best choice.

If you take the Boon Companion feat at level 5, your animal companion will be level 5 as well.

+1

Unless you multiclass, this feat will keep your companion at the appropriate power level.

Bane is still the source. The fact that it came from a class ability should not matter.

So....

(Does that mean they should stack, or no?)

I apologize if this has already been covered (although I didn't see it in the thread): but what about Bane from two sources?
Like an Inquisitor with the Grey Gardner PrC; does that mean their Bane Weapon ability would be 8d6, or the same 4d6, but for twice as many rounds?

The PrC specifically says that sneak attack levels stack, but it doesn't say that about Bane Weapon. Of course, it doesn't say they *don't* stack, either. ;)

Flavor suggestion

Impressive, most impressive.

I think this will help me pull off the other build I was proposing in the other thread.
It could also be used to pull off the 'fighter/mage/thief' build people were talking about with a dip or two as well.

It won't be flawless, and still a bit MAD...but effective, nonetheless.

I didn't start this thread, but it solved a problem I've been grappling with for a LONG time...thanks.

"The following oracle mysteries complement the ancient lorekeeper archetype: Lore, Nature, Waves, Wind; Ancestor, Time, Wood."

I take that to mean they *can't* be Oracles of Battle, or is this more a flavor suggestion?

Another alternate option to Mystic Theurge that I like is using a new Oracle archetype from the ARG. An Elven Oracle (Ancient Lorekeeper) with the Haunted Curse to be precise. You can still pick whatever Mystery you desire to help round out the character.

Ancient Lorekeeper replaces whatever bonus spells you get with any wizard/sorcerer spells of your choice, but they are treated as 1 level higher (IE you cast Fireball as a 4th level spell).

The Haunted Curse eventually gives you 6 specific arcane spells that aren't usually on your list. The good thing is that many of these are pretty awesome (Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Levitate, Minor Image, Telekinesis, and Reverse Gravity).

The obvious downside to this build is that Evles don't give the Cha bonus, and that most of your "arcane" spells take up a one level higher spell slot. Of course this is offset by the fact that you only need 1 caster stat, that you have almost complete control over your Mystery spells, and that your Oracle spell casting and Revelations will never fall behind.

Now THIS looks promising...time to check the ol' SRD hehe.

Samsaran Wizard...is that something from 3.5?
Our campaign is core only; the DM doesn't even allow 3rd party Pathfinder.

gnomersy wrote:

Dave the DM wrote:

Mind you, he still gets to play what he wants.

(Not sure why this whole post is gray, lol.)

1. As others have said: thanks for showing up.
2. This pretty much seems like the "I win button" to me.
3. Your 'team work' concept will actually probably work better if they *aren't* perfectly balanced. They'll have to think more, strategize and synergize a lot better to overcome the challenges before them.

A group of 5 barbarians, 5 rogues, or 5 wizards would reach vastly different solutions for the exact same problems.

Don't build anything.

It's his PC, have him build it.

+1

ecw1701 wrote:

It will still be a hard climb, but a lvl 6 wizard / 4 cleric / 10 MT / 10+ Mythic tiers would probably be a pretty terrible force to behold.

Not any more then a single class caster. Action economy prevents you from doing every thing at one time. Along with the fact that the differences in spell level from 8 to 9 is huge. I have played a lot of high level games. I can tell you missing out on level 9 spells for any caster is a huge lose. It dose not matter how many spells you can cast. It is a matter of what spells you can cast.

Well, you skipped the most important part: the guild rules allowing for double 9's. A long climb, but you WOULD get there.

Edit: And Witchs can't cast magic missile or fireball; call me old fashioned, but you're not a real arcane caster without those two spells.
But a Witch is a tolerable MT in a can, yes.

Finally IF your GM uses eclectic training and esoteric training from innser sea magic... Go with wizard 6/cleric 4/MT 10 with your +3 class going cleric and your +1 class going wizard giving you 9th level spells in each (at 20).

This has me greatly intrigued.

So much so that I asked the DM if guild rules are available in our campaign. With the impending mythic rules playtest, we'll be doing great deeds anyway; may as well be earning street cred with muggles and gods alike.

It will still be a hard climb, but a lvl 6 wizard / 4 cleric / 10 MT / 10+ Mythic tiers would probably be a pretty terrible force to behold.

This question specifically concerns a monster/NPC using the Full Attack action. Here's the scenario:

You're running a monster that has 3 attacks -- two claws and a bite -- and it's standing within 5 feet of a PC. It carries out the Full Attack action. You adjudicate its attacks, and the first 2 knock the PC down into negative HP. There are no other PCs nearby to attack: do you carry out the third attack, which has a reasonable chance of killing the PC?

I have my own thoughts on this but want to hear what other people think.

Let 'em live...unless they have it coming.

In general, I only kill PCs who have brought it upon themselves through negligence or arrogance, and if it's a TPK I try to leave at least one survivor. If a single party member lives, the campaign lives.

Although in point of fact, I am running a campaign tonight that I don't expect everyone to live through, but it's the final battle with a BBEG 6 months in the making...no victory without sacrifice.