|Paizo Pathfinder® Paizo Games|
|About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ|
-beast morph archetype: allows pounce for move+full attack at level 10
-note expeditious retreat is super handy in combat
-note that extend potion+2nd level alchemy spell that allows you to reuse potions forever + potion of Heroism allows for infinite Heroism spell.
-consider 2 level barbarian dip to get beast totem: allows horns when raging for 4(!) natural attacks when raging and a +8 strength bonus
-if doing above, Human is super handy
So, in short, after 2,500+ posts the answer is NO, we CANNOT make the rogue "work" ... There will always be a class that can fill the rogue's role more effectively.
Alchemists and Bards come immediately to mind. Are those classes "shattering content"? I think not. Rogues need to be rewritten. Badly.
The post count alone demonstrates the case.
Be an Archeologist (Bard archetype).
Vastly superior to rogue. Only thing you lose is sneak attack. Gain a bunch of stuff including a great luck bonus.
Check the archetype out.
Naruto Uzumaki wrote:
Dude, Naruto, I encourage you to start a blog that chronicles your RPG experiences. I would follow that thing avidly.
This thread is made of pure win. Whether this an epic troll thread or the real deal, it is awesome.
A sincere thanks for sharing. Still laughing.
I am looking for a build/class that can act as a ranged glass cannon. Please leave your feedback!
Best glass cannon build I can think of (with heavy inspiration from various threads/builds- see below for links) is an Orc Bloodline Varisian Tattoo Sorceror (1)/Wizard (admixture)(X)
The idea is that the Orc Sorc bloodline dip provides +1 to all arcane damage spells. Varisian Tattoo allows you to make Evocation act as though you were 1 level higher.
Admixture Wizard provides great flexibility not just in all the spells you know, but also with the ability to change your fireball damage to whatever you like, thereby negating much of problem with fireballs (damage resistance)
You can pump out some crazy damage with the right meta magic feats and the above. Combine with dazing spells to rock encounters.
Here are 2 guides you can use for inspiration:
Note that it has been ruled that you cannot have both Varisian Tattoo AND be crossblooded.
I would like to play something like the above and will likely go Varisian Tattoo with Orcbloodline for the tattoo familiar. The damage difference between that and crossblooded is surprisingly very little.
-Extracts can be "cast" in heavy armor
I actually have a build for you here:
That build focuses on tripping, but you can apply quite a bit of that thread to your current build, I am sure.
Sammy the Bull (Barbarian (Drunken Brute)(2)/Alchemist (Beastmorph)(X))
*please see bottom of post for build progression*
I like alchemists. They are a great utility character. They also can be rather effective in combat (Beastmorph Vivisectionist, may you rest in peace. Signed, PFS).
I decided to try a Hulk-inspired Barbarian/Alchemist build informed by several other threads on this idea from 2012 (kudos to the contributors).
The concept is a Half-Orc Shaman's Apprentice who escapes his cruel life but eventually decides to master the dangerous skills he had begun to learn. Like the Witcher, he combines martial skill with all kinds of ability augmenting potions.
Mechanically, the idea is to add as many strength bonuses and natural attacks as I can find while still being a utility knife for the party.
We start as a Barbarian and take 2 levels both for fluff reasons and because starting with all of those hit points, armor/weapon proficiency and rage abilities is dang handy to include growing horns. We then go straight alchemist the rest of the way.
By level 6 he gets 4 natural attacks along with some rather nasty buffs including: +8 strength, Heroism (for hours and hours), and Arcane Strike (!... hear me out on that one...). Further, Medium Armor Proficiency allows a bump in AC over a standard alchemist.
Additionally, the character has a ton of skill points/class skills and retains access to bombs (which will be weak relative to a bomber... but can cause some neat effects with the right discoveries)and can eventually buff the party through infusing his extracts.
-Arcane Strike at level 1! How? By taking Magical Knack as a trait. Arcane strike boosts damage and makes the attacks magical. By level 6, that is +2 to damage!
Arance Strike rulings:
In Short: a spell like ability (even from a trait) COUNTS for gaining Arcane Strike. If you have no caster levels, you treat your Arcane Strike level as your hit dice (same as how monsters do it). This came directly from the developers
-Heroism for hours and hours at level 6. How? Buy a Heroism Potion (Wizard level 5) and use the extract Alchemical Allocation to cast it over and over again without using it up. Couple with the Discovery Extend Potion for 100 minutes per use of Heroism! Neat, right? That is +2 to attacks and saving throws!
-With 17 rounds of rage and 40 minutes of mutagen by level 6, we should be able to ensure most fights have a +8 strength boost going
-With Feral Mutagen at level 3, we get 2 claws and a bite attack. Coupled with the Rage gore attack, we should be pumping out a ton of damage with all of these damage bonuses
-Drunken Brute Barbarian Archetype allows drinking potion as a move action and extension of rage through drinking
-Beastmorph Alchemist Archetype allows POUNCE and even flight... eventually...
At level 10 (ignore Enlarge Person, which he can cast repeatedly on himself for 8 minutes a shot... also ignore bulls strength and haste for now):
level 10 stats:
to hit= +22 from = +8 (BAB) + 8 (str boni) +2 (Belt of strength bonus) + 2 Amulet of mighty fists + 2 (Heroism)
Full attack damage potential= 2d8+2d6+70
(I seem to have misplaced the damage model you fine citizens use to calculate DPR so please excuse me for not properly calculating it... will do so if there is any forum interest in this idea...)
-Delays POUNCE by 2 levels to level 12 vs a straight alchemist or barbarian
-Not the best action economy. Peak power requires a bit of buffing
Questions for you:
Thanks for reading and the help.
Class: Barbarian (2)/Alchemist (X)
Str: 17 (+7)
Level 1: Barbarian (1)
Level 2: Barbarian (2)
Level 3: Alchemist (1)
Level 4: Alchemist (2)
Level 5: Alchemist (3)
Level 6: Alchemist (4)
Level 7: Alchemist (5)
Level 8: Alchemist (6)
Level 9: (Alchemist 7)
Level 11: (Alchemist 9)
Level 12: (Alchemist 10)
While you can take Varisian Tattoo Feat for the CL boost, the Tattooed Sorceror Archetype would conflict with Cross-blooded, as they are modifying the same features: Tattooed Sorceror is replacing the 1st bloodline power, while Cross-blooded is modifying that class feature to have a choice of both Bloodlines' powers. Tattooed Sorceror is also replacing the Bloodline Feat while Cross-blooded is modifying that Feature to use both Blood-lines' lists. If you take Tattooed Sorceror, you are missing out on the function of the Cross-blooded Archetype, which is why the rules for mixing Archetypes forbids that, because Archetypes are always to be taken as an entire package yet combining Crossblooded and Tattooed would result in some Crossblooded features being expressed but not others. If an Archetype was just giving you an ADDITIONAL feature or option that didn't affect the function of a base class ability then that can't conflict with other archetypes, but when they change the function of core class abilities, then that can conflict with other archetypes.
Well, as I wrote above, I very much disagree with your ruling. Cross blooded is merely adding more options... It is not forcing you to take x power and then conflicting with Varisian. The point of the archetype rules is to prevent 2 archetypes dictating the same choice for a particular power/feat.
Cross blooded dictates nothing.
So I think mixing the two is on firm ground both RAW and RAI.
But after thinking about everyone's comments, it seems like there are enough players out there who are uncomfortable with this build that it is probabaly more trouble than it is worth to actually bring it to a table. And if it turns out to be a destroyer of worlds, it will exacerbate the problem.
The "Blockbuster" wizard seems plenty effective and no one can question the legality. If I decide to play a blaster type, I'll probably just do that.
Posting warnings to other witches does not sound evil to me. Neither is having an anger management problem.
Killing innocents? Engaging in selfish actions to the detriment of others? I'd start there.
Having read up on this issue... It looks like the elemental spell feat does not change the energy descriptor.... So perhaps a cross blooded Sorceror with at feat could, in fact, be as effective as the blockbuster wizard. You would effectively be trading 1 meta magic level for +2 damage per die... Which seems pretty dang awesome to me.
Yes. But could I not cast a fireball, get the +2 per die and then convert all of the damage o acid since the spell is technically a "fire spell" even though I changed the damage?
HOT! Will check that out... I have googled the poop out of this topic and somehow missed that thread.
Glad this will work!
That is the most common way to get the most out of a blaster type caster actually. Draconic/Orc Blooded is usually one of the only really mechanically optimized reasons to be a Crossblooded Sorcerer.
Concur, sir! And allowing me to change all of those fire spells into acide damage is huge.
What do you think of the rest of the build? Is it a good trade to delay wizard spell progression by 1 level for all of the above?
Well, friend, the bottome line is that it looks like we agree it is legal. I disagree that cross blooded changes the bloodline powers... More options is not a forced change.
It sounds like there is concern that this build does not really follow the rules INTENT... And is, perhaps, a bit "munchkiny", if you will excuse the word.
That is a very fair concern and is worth discussing... However I am convinced that the build is legal according to RAW (as long as I bump Charism to 12).
I am little more interested in discussing the effectiveness of the build vs a standard wizard.
I do not believe Crossblooded and Tattooed stack, since both alter/change bloodline powers.
Ah. I think you be wrong, me hearty:http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nzt9?Sorcerer-Archtype-combos
As that dude says, cross blooded just provides more options and does not actually alter any powers.
It's always been my contention that the bloodline bonus only counts for the sorcerer spells.
Ah. Also fair.
However, while your interpretation of the rules is absolutely reasonable, it is not RAW and therefore a bit of a house rule, no?
Seems like under PFS rules I could do this. Am I wrong?
I would like to discuss the cross blooded, tattooed, admixture wizard. This is not a new idea: many others have posted the idea of taking a cross blooded Draconic/Orc Sorceror for level 1 and then switching to an Evocation (Admixture) wizard for the next 19 levels, resulting in a wizard who has all of the normal cosmic tools of other wizards coupled with +2 fire spell damage /die with the ability to change the fire damage to any element type.
I'd like to discuss how to optimize him and then how he compares to a standard wizard.
By adding Varisian Tattoo, his evocation spells also are cast at class level +1.
So the only draw back to this plan is the delay in wizard spell progression (but NOT spell power) by 1 level.
It seems to me that by delaying wizard spell progression by 1, this character actually gains a great deal of versatility in that he can now lay down very effective blasts.
At level 1 he relies on his longbow (Elf) and casting enlarge person 3 times a day.
At level 2, he is able to cast 7 first level spells per day (admittedly 3 are enlarge person). Note that his Burning Hands spell at level 2 does 3d4 +6 points of damage vs the worthless 2d4 of a standard wizard as the Varisian Tattoo increases caster level by 1 for his evocation spells.
At level 2, 12 points of aoe damage that can be of any elemental type is pretty dang good.
At level 6 he can cast a "fire" ball of any elemental type that deals 7d6 +14 damage or 38 on average vs 6d6 or 21 that a standard wizard would do.
What do you think? Is this more effective than a standard wizard? Am I underestimating the impact of delaying spell progression by 1 level? Also, what feats would you recommend? Is my stat distribution optimal?
Class: Sorceror (1)/Wizard(x)
20 pt buy
Traits: Magical Knack, Warrior of Old
Each round is what? Like 6 seconds.
Sake is a relatively weak drink.
How many rounds does a tough encounter last? 15-20 max?
I can drink Sake for 2 minutes no problem and feel just fine... and I am no longer a heavy drinker.
There are many people who are high functioning alcoholics. Also, someone who was a "Drunken Brute" must have a very high alcohol tolerance... they are going to be able to drink much more than the average person.
Fixed title. Thanks.
Fair points concerning the limitations on color spray etc.
I willthink it over.
My other plan is to just focus on being a Fey sorceror. There are a great many battle winning compulsion spells out there starting with Sleep.
I am curious to get some input on the following idea (inspired by another thread on here)...
I am considering playing a Sorceror with 1 level of Oracle. The idea is to leverage the Awesome Display Mystery from the Heavens Revelation("Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier").
I could really use some advice on this as multi-classing spell casters is generally a very bad idea.
1. Color Spray remains a game winning spell for quite some time, if we take spell focus (Illusion) and pump our Charisma up and use metamagic feats to increase the DC (for example: Heighten Spell). At level 4, you can Color Spray for FULL EFFECT all creatures 7 HD or less! Which is everyone! yay!
2. When Color Spray starts becoming silly to use, we can soon switch over to Prismatic Spray (level 14) for more game winning goodness (will be affecting creatures with 16 HD or less by that point!)
3. The Haunted curse gives us Mage Hand and Ghost sound... 2 very handy spells.
4. We get to add 4 (and eventually 5 or more) 1st level Oracle spells to our daily casts! That is a bunch of spell casting! AND we can just spam Color Spray from our Sorceror spells at low levels.
5. Also, does this mean that we can simply ditch UMD? It certainly means we can use a wand of cure light wounds (if we take the spell as an oracle) without UMD. Is this how UMD works? I can auto use any spell casting device that I already know the spells for?
1. Lose 1 level of Sorceror spells. So we don't get level 9 spells until level 19 and at level 20 we can only cast 4 instead of 6. Which does suck. Also, our Sorceror bonus spells are delayed by a level.
Man, this seems like a good trade to me. What do you guys think?
I find that highly unlikely. There is nothing in the rules to suggest so. It would take a DM who is going out of his way to piss on his players for there to be a problem.
I was commenting about Jiggy saying read carefull because I misread.
Cool, guys. Thanks again!
Seems to me that taking 1 level of Dawnflower Dervish is a no brainer for the Dervish Magus build.
Simply a no brainer.
+You save a feat (don't need weapon finesse)
All for the cost of:
Seems like a GREAT trade to me. That +2/+2 is huge.
By level 2, the Dawnflower/Magus(kensai) gets Arcane strike and Weapon Focus so WITHOUT spending arcana (and assuming a 18 Dex and 18 Int) he has a +8 to-hit and +7 to damage on TWO Attacks per turn (both at -2).
Jiggy was correct read carefully:/
I hate to be dense and slow. I just want to make sure I understand.
At the top of that link I see this:
"Below is a specific list of Paizo Publishing products and the equipment, traits, deities, spells, feats, and classes contained within that are legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play."
Under Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Magic I see the following:
"Other: all magical tattoos on page 16, both the spellscar and outer rifts oracle mysteries on pages 30–31 (the spellscar oracle does not gain access to the eldritch scar, primal mastery, or trigger primal magic event revelations), all archetypes on pages 32–43 except the primalist wizard archetype, with the following restrictions: only elves may be spire defender magi, a tattooed sorcerer may only use her create spell tattoo power during days spent in play (ie. not between scenarios), a vampire hunter inquisitor does not gain the silversmith ability, instead replacing detect alignment with detect undead; the Varisian Pilgrim does not replace her 8th-level domain power with Blessing of the Harrow."
That is stating that all archetypes on pages 32-43 are legal. Hence, Dawnflower Dervish is legal.
Or are you just referring to the 12 level cap for PFS? That I concede, but I am hoping to take the character into a friend group from 13-20.
Am I missing something? Thanks again for helping me clarify. I do appreciate it.
Dawnflower Dervish is legal? Hot!
So! A one level dip into Dawflower Dervish gives me Dervish dancing for free at level 1 AND a +2/+2 combat bonus.
Then Magus for the next 19 levels.
Awesome. Very fun.
I have a couple of quick questions. Thanks in advance.
1) Where can I find a quick summary of which classes/archetypes are not legal in PFS?
(and you can guess what is coming next...)
2) Is the Dawnflower Dervish Bard achetype PFS legal (from Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Magic?
3) I assume that the Kensai and Bladebound archetypes for Magus are both legal, correct?
DUDE! AND she can buff the party with extracts AND has a ton of skills that can include things like disable device and various knowledges.
The beast alchemist, particularly this pouncing sneak attack monster, is probably the single most useful party addition.
How would I go about making one? Would I adapt Werebears, or just use a werebear template?
Fun. Although unless it is facing hordes of bamboo groves, I think it will be in trouble.
Even more fun: were-koalas. NO EUCALYPTUS TREE WILL BE SAFE AGAIN! (well, outside of the 20 hours of sleep time).
I do enjoy the Shatter Defenses build, but at level 10, one level before you get SD, the alchemist will have Greater Invisibility maybe twice per day. So when you really need full sneak attack all the time for a combat, there's that. And it would save 3 feats. Yours has the advantage of not relying on limited resources, but doesn't work against enemies immune to fear effects.
I guess I would add that with enlarge person and the Mutagen AND intimidating prowess you are set up for a huge intimidate bonus so that the build can pretty much guarantee the shaken condition on all enemies (outside of fear ignoring ones).
What do you think about the uber trip build in comparison? I think it can trip giants at level 10 without much trouble.
My instinct is that the trip build above would be much more effective when facing groups of enemies while still being able to compete with the alchemist build against single targets... although the alchemist will probably eke out a bit more damage.
Now I also got into trip builds awhile back. I agree with the poster above that AOOs are underrated. I originally built a fauchard (exotic weapon with reach, trip and 18-20 crit range) wielding fighter/alchemist. Then someone took that build and tweaked it to something like the below.
5 AOOs at level 10 while raging!
Can constant rage by drinking alchohol as a move action. He can forgo the full attack as he is built around AOOs.
Of course he uses level 1 enlarge person potions constantly as needed. So his threaten area is 5-15 with lunge.
Gets an extra free trip every turn from flowing monk.
How does this stack up with the above?
Class: Fighter(9)/Barb(2)/Monk(1) [Fauchard]
Str: 18 (10) (+2 from leveling)
Perception (1): +8
Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven, Draconic
1: Fighter (1)
2: Fighter (2): Improved Trip
3: Barb (1): Extra Rage
4: Barb (2): Class ability: Quick Reflexes (rage power); Uncanny Dodge
5: Monk (1): Lunge; Improved Reposition (from Monk)
6: Fighter (3): Weapon Focus: Fauchard
7: Fighter (4): Greater Trip
8: Fighter (5): Power Attack
9: Fighter (6): Improved Criticals
10: Fighter (7): Critical Focus
11: Fighter (8): Weapon Specialization
12: Fighter (9): Bleeding Criticals
13: Fighter (10): Tripping Strike
Rage: 13 rounds/day +booze
AC: 23 [+10 (+1 Mithril Plate) + 2 (dex)+1(dex IOUN stone)]
Hi. So it seems to me that just with beastmorph/vivisectionist you are going to be pretty sweet.
Now! What if we ALSO add in the Cornugon Smash/Shatter Defenses combo?
Why... you have infinite sneak attacks! Also, I really want to get Greater Beastform ASAP for pounce as that pretty much ensures constant full round attacks.
And, of course, with all of your skills you have non-combat applications as well.
Computed AC and saves for level 10.
Note that I chose an Elf with 16 Str, 16 Int and 16 Dex. I give up +1 to damage/to-hit for more skills, higher int skills, better initiative, better AC. Seemes like a good trade...
I concede CON is a tad low.
I also went with a level 18 potion of heroism to use with alchemical allocation. My concern with the greater fang potion is that it gets spread over all of your natural attacks for a +1 to each. Or are you guys saying that you alchemically allocate 3 of them?
Heroism is a pretty great boost.
Here is my non-multiclassed version:
Skills: Knowledge (nature): +7
Saves (@lvl 10):
AC: 27 (+7 mithril +4 dex +2 nat armor+1RoP) (+3Barkskin)
1. Alchemist (1) +0 BAB
2. Alchemist (2) +1 BAB
3: Alchemist (3) +2 BAB
4: Alchemist (4) +3 BAB
5: Alchemist (5) +3 BAB
6: Alchemist (6) +4 BAB
7: Alchemist (7) +5 BAB
8: Alchemist (8) +6 BAB
9: Alchemist (9)
10: Alchemist (10)
11: Master Chymist (1)
12: Master Chymist (2)
13: Master Chymist (3)
14: Master Chymist (4)
15: Master Chymist (5)
16: Master Chymist (6)
17: Master Chymist (7)
18: Master Chymist (8)
19: Master Chymist (9)
20: Master Chymist (10)
Weapons: long sword, composite long bow
Full Attack (Feral): 65 (no sa) / 96 (sa)
+1 Amulet of mighty fists (5k)
Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:
To add to your alchemist points:
1) Alchemical Allocation + Extend Potion + Lvl 18 Heroism potion = 6 hours of +2 to hit and all saves and can use the potion over and over!
2) Enlarge person! Can cast this 4 times a day on yourself!
I built a alch 4/fighter 16 trip fighter in another thread. I'll try it with a Barbarian...
3) NO BOMBS! Vivisectionist for 2d6 sneak attack damage!
Mike Schneider wrote:
I am so very glad I came back to reread this thread. Hilarious and clever. Let me think this through.
For a face character it is hard to beat an Infernal Sorceror spamming charm spells.
Between charm, bluff and diplomacy, that character can talk his way out of anything AND can bluff and diplomacy his way though combat as well using charm.
A DC on charm of 19-20 or so at level 1 is hilarious. So is +9 to Diplomacy and Bluff at level 1.
Much depends on your DM and your creativity. If you are witty in real life, you can probably sell the combat power of this combo more effectively.
I plan on trying this out in my next campaign. Fun character concept.
AND, you are still a fantastic arcane mage giving you access to all of the god powers in the game. Outside of charm you can do all kinds of cool stuff.
He becomes a fantastic battlefield controller. AND a great devil summoner (as diplomacy checks are needed with Planar Binding). You will want Augment summoning at some point.
You will want to take linguistics as an early feat, I think. You will also want an intelligence of 12 for the extra language and skill point.
I recommend a human for the spell bonus. Here is a quick thought on the build (minus feats outside of level 1). I have also included spell recommendations. Note that I have included the +1 spell known/level from being a HUMAN sorceror:
Str: 7 (-4)
Skills (@level 1)
1: Sorc (1)
1 (8): Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Protection from Good, Grease, Color Spray, Charm Person, Disguise Self, Unseen Servant
2 (7): See Invisibility, Invisibility, Flaming Sphere, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, Hideous Laughter, Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray
3 (7): Stinking Cloud, Summon Monsters III, Phantom Steed, Haste, Fire Ball, Suggestion, Magic Circle Against Evil
4 (6): Black Tentacles, Summon Monster IV, Confusion, Enervation, Dimension Door, Fear, Charm Monster
5 (6): Magic Jar, Telekinesis, Telepathic Bond, Dimensional Anchor, Wall of Stone, Feeblemind, Dominate Person
6 (6): Dispel Magic (Greater), Disintegrate, Summon Monster VI, Mass Suggestion, Contingency, Circle of Death, Planar Binding (programmable image?)
7 (5): Summon Monster VII, Arcane Sight (Greater), Grasping Hand, Reverse Gravity, Polymorph (Greater), Waves of Exhaustion, Teleport (Greater) (project image?)
8 (5): Planar Binding (Greater), Maze, Clone, Form of the Dragon III, Polymorph Any Object, power word stun
9 (6): Mage’s Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Summon Monster IX, Time Stop, Wish, Dominate Monster, meteor swarm
Suppose it depends on DM rulings.
My thoughts on how to rule it:
1. I'd say no. Flaming sphere is doing all of the burning. If you were grappling with an orc and were hit by the same spell would you take secondary damage from the burning orc? No. Also, webs burn super fast... as in instantly. Go try taking a lighter to a spider web. The stuff burns up just from too much heat being nearby.
2. I'd rule no on this one too. Webs burn too fast.
3. I'd rule that cast a web spell on a burning sphere results in nothing happening. Web burns up instantly.
Also, it is pretty early for anyone to be up. I'd be asleep, but had a work emergency and needed to get some stuff done from home.
If you have to know the language of every creature you summon then the summoning lines of spells are worthless.
Also, the quote you bold seems pretty clear to me: creature attacks your foes by default.
ALSO, I have played this game since AD&D, hell, since the red book and I have NEVER had to speak the language of my summons.
Not sure where your DM came up with this.
As for your questions:
1. Sure, if your DM insists on the language rule. I like your solution. Sort of a silly "F U" to a silly ruling.
2. We always ruled that if summoned out of combat, the creature(s) will attack bad guys as soon as they see your party attack the baddies or the baddies attack you.
3. As per (2), we never had to convince the summoned monster to attack. Otherwise you are nerfing the pewp out of that entire spell line.
Well, my point was that if you and your players are not aligned on what makes a good game and what the boundaries of conduct are within an alignment... then you have a disconnect. Not saying anyone is wrong or right... just saying that a discussion where the boundaries are sorted out would certainly help the situation. Your GM comment seems odd in relation to mine. My point was that everyone is working together (GM included) to tell a story. It is collaboration (again, GM included). Ideally the basic boundaries of conduct can be agreed on and an effort should be made to lay those out before trouble hits.
The story as I have read it sounds like you have a couple of guys enjoying themselves in the game world and breaking immersiveness for everyone else. That sucks. But the way to fix it is NOT punishment. The real way to fix it is to stop and explain why the behavior is not working for you.
A nice, adult discussion could then take place. Your players might learn to role play better. You might realize that they have a point about how they see their characters.
A discussion around in character and out of character humor would help everyone's experience as well.
As for dice rolling: a GM cheating to the detriment of the players is kind of sh*tty. Sorry, just is. You want to play kid gloves and save them? ok. But once you are artificially penalizing them, you are taking away their agency and fun.
Now, if you want to punish them by having a random monster attack, fine. But if they luck their way out of the encounter then good on them.
Ok. So fair point. The theme of my post was the same as yours: the idea is to have fun. Not to "beat" the players or force your vision.
That said: when you play on virtual tables online, there is no dice fudging and I somewhat like the purity of it. I like knowing that no deity will save me if I have a run of bad luck. I realize I may be in the minority.
AHHAHHA. Awesome. My old group would have loved that, DM especially. Might have even granted a special reward for creativity. I certianly would have as DM.
If the players are doing something that enriches the gaming experience (see, for example, enlarged T-REX of BITEY DOOM!) then that is AWESOME for everyone. Even if a tad silly.
Seems to me this could all be fixed by a conversation with the players about ingame vs out of game comments. Would alleviate this whole mess.
I like making jokes during games... particlarly dark ones. Does that mean I need an alignment change? Why can't my Paladin be a cynical dude? People are complicated. Makes the role playing more fun.
Have you tried discussing role playing a bit?
Seems to me that there is not enough communication between DM and players about how everyone wants the game played (as stated by someone else above).
This game is COOPERATIVE. That includes the DM. Everyone is trying to build a world together that they can enjoy. Setting ground rules on what that means to everyone is important.
Trying to fix it through punishments on the players is really not a good idea. People aren't going to want to play. The DMs job is to provide a background story for the players to play in... not to arbitrarily punish them.
And dice cheating by the DM is b+#$*+&~. Really. This is a GAME. If you can't be trusted to play a fantasy game straight... then you are either inherently a cheater or have let the DM hat go to your head.
Lincoln Hills wrote:
Well... I read the rule as the body is effectively held in stasis. If it is not decaying it should not age. Of course, I defer to any body of rules that someone can quote where this is not the case.
Resurrection can be easily distinguished: your body is being resurrected as it was right before you died. You aren't saving any days of life by being resurrected.
Here, you are living out your days in another body. The two are fundamentally different. Rules for resurrection are therefore not persuasive.
And I don't understand why the age of your soul determines death. This makes no sense in the light of biology. Yeah, yeah, fantasy game etc. Such a rule would break my ability to believe.
I might be persuaded by any official ruling which rules against life extension through a magic jar trick. But I would like to see the reasoning.
As for why I care about this... a Master Chymist does not get to take a level 20 discovery (and therefore no Eternal Youth)... hence the work around.
Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.