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AndIMustMask's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 2,343 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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go 2H TWF--two-hand a weapon and have your second attack as an unarmed strike (kicks, headbutts, hip/shoulderchecks, etc.)


it appears that i'm a bit late to the party:

paizo why would you do this? you have thrown the eldritch knight, arcane archer/trickster, and mystic theurge back into the garbage bin for no reason.

oh well, just another trash ruling to ignore in home games (like crane wing's kneecapping)!


i would guess in one of the mythic books' monster sections


yo williamoak: i notice your arshea oradin could cut out paladin entirely and just take the divine protection feat, letting it keep 9th level casting at the cost of smite (which at 2/day is a bit lean anyway)


oh no, i wasnt disputing the after attack bit, i specifically referred to the ending your actions outside of cover or concealment.

(since i'm genuinely curious about it)


i'll point out that slayer despite having fewer SA dice, it largely covers that distance with static bonuses (both to hit and to damage), making it a great deal more effective at reliably dealing damage (and stealth bonuses are silly easy to boost with that class).

the number of dice is pretty misleading, honestly.

.
also, do note the overall bonuses granted by having greater heroism on-tap all adventuring day.

then consider that it's extended by things like community minded (trait) and is boosted by the courageous enchant (and is gotten often enough to actually warrant the purchase of said enchant, which in turn affects any other morale bonuses you might have). it's certainly expensive i'll grant, but more than worth it in the long run.

i mean +2 reflex/+1 accuracy/+20 ground speed and an extra attack on full attacks are certainly good, but i'm not sure it even compares to +4 (more with courageous) to accuracy (a pitfall of the class), saves (a MAJOR pitfall of the class), skill checks, immunity to fear and bonus hp, especially since there's more than one way to get extra attacks via spells.

then again, if you have access to both buffs (such as a party bard or wizard who isn't using their actions being more useful), it doesn't really matter which you choose, since you can have both.

(personally my hierarchy is battle herald > winged > haste, since winged boots let you apply your speed in 3D, which is certainly more flexible than haste)

- - - - -

also, i forgot the nature fang crocodile domain druid! decent SA advancement, slayer favored target (and slayer/rogue talents), AND 9th level divine casting (including things like flame blade for touch AC shenanigans).


was about to come back saying that i couldn't find anything with that clause besides movement, but DM_Blake and nicos seem to have covered that.


far as i know, your opponent can't make multiple AoOs on a target for doing an action that triggers it more than once (such as moving several squares through someone's threatened area), so i think he'd get one ffrom the first shot, and that's it (especially if he doesnt have combat reflexes).

let me dig up the post about it.


righty: the ending out of cover/concealment doesnt apply if you have hide in plain sight, no? (though that's just me wondering, not particularly relevant to the thread)


3 people marked this as a favorite.

your player should note that actual games dont just send a parade of CR-appropriate enemies until you reach the next tier of CR-appropriateness--enemy strength is going to fluctuate, and for a properly designed encounter for a semi-optimized party (CR + ~4) is actually the 'boss/challenging but doable' mark, with beyond that going into 'okay maybe we should run'.

naturally there's some leeway needed on the GMs part for less optimized groups, tailoring to/against party weaknesses, thematics for setting, etc.

i do note a lot of constructs and stuff that, so perhaps let him hae an encounter or two to shine (even going with the theme)--maybe the clockwork folks have a human engineer with them for maintenance, etc.


(pardon the doublepost) but again: sorry for just dumping on you.


alright, imma drop some major stuff on you, sorry in advance:

a lot of folks here (myself included) feel/have mathematically shown that rogue is a tad... subpar. there are many classes that can pull off everything you listed as wanting for your rogue, but are better at it.

the slayer and investigator readily spring to mind, but the bard, alchemist, ranger, and inquisitor can all do much the same as well, while having better saves and skills, great tertiary abilities and spellcasting, and not relying on the finicky sneak attack mechanic to meaningfully contribute in combat.

(like seriously, i'd be almost willing to bet money that a straight darkness blessing warpriest could pull of what you want)

the ninja (despite the name) seems like almost exactly what you want as well, and note that it doesn't require you use eastern weapons and run around wearing black stage-hand garb--and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!
at it's core it's a cha-reliant stealthy attacker with abilities to actually utilize it's core ability reliably (sneak attacking from invisibility/greater invisibility), but still suffers many of the defensive pitfalls of the rogue class (listed below).

.

all that said however, if you want to take the harder road and play a rogue there's a few things you'll have to keep in mind to build around:

Spoiler:
-3/4 bab and no class-boost (unlike literally every other class in the game) means that ANYTHING that costs accuracy--such as power attack, deadly aim, etc--is a no-no if you plan on hitting things post-level six or so. squeeze dry every source of accuracy you can get your grubby little hands on.

-melee-centric class with bad HD and armor availability means you'll need to be extremely careful not to draw attention to yourself, since the creature your flanking might just turn and kill you outright.

-bad fort and will saves: this is a death sentence post-level 6, since most enemies start gaining access to save-or-die or save-or-suck SLAs that target those two abilities. you MUST shore up at least one of them if you plan to survive.

-the two above combined make you a rather MAD class, requiring strength for damage, dex for AC, con for hp/fort saves, and wis for will saves. this puts you in the same stat-boat as the monk unless you can shave them down, like with fencing/slashing grace or dervish dance (all of which cost 2-3 feats).

-most rogue talents are pure garbage: they either seem useful but have a once-per-day limit (like hunter's surprise) or make you actually WORSE at doing something (such as rumormonger). all of the 'best' talents grant feats (finesse rogue/weapon training/combat trick/feat/etc)--which is backhanded, since a class ability should be worth spending a feat on like extra rage power, not the other way around.

-you MUST play a race with darkvision (or pay a feat tax), otherwise you will be unable to use sneak attack anywhere with dim light or lower (because concealment shuts down sneak attack and paizo forgot that).

-due to skill changes from 3.5e to pathfinder, tumbling to avoid an AoO is almost impossible, since you roll against the enemy's CMD now (which scales almost exponentially the higher level you go), and makes stealth incredibly difficult in some situations.

-you MUST find some way to get sneak attack reliably or else you're going to end up a sack of potatoes in combat--flanking, feinting, stealth, etc. all work, but require yet more feats to get reliably.

- - - - -

it takes a great deal of system mastery to try and cover all these bases at once, hence for someone just wanting to try it out i would suggest the other alternatives listed above.

if you STILL wish to try out the rogue, here are some example builds to draw some ideas from:

'Iconic' rogue
synopsis: sneaky, dex focused, can flank with himself (eventually). i tried to hit as many of the 'headcanon rogue' bases as possible. still suffers from a bad fort and only half-decent will save though

Spoiler:
Focused Study Human swashbuckler Rogue 17 / Horizon Walker 3
(rog 6 / HW 3 / rog +11)
*scimitar proficiency gained from swashbuckler; FCB spent on 2 rogue talents and 5 HP

stats
str 10, dex 17 (7+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 13 (3), cha 14 (5)

traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

rogue talents:
2 - Combat Trick (Dervish Dance)
4 - Combat Trick (Shadow Strike)
6 - Minor Magic (Detect Magic), FCB: Weapon Training (scimitar)
11 - Fast Stealth
13* - Feat (Dimensional Savant)
15* - Opportunist, FCB: Improved Evasion
17* - Skill Mastery (acrobatics, disable device, [face skill], perception, sense motive, stealth)
19* - ???
* - available to take advanced talents

feats:
1 - Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (stealth)
3 - Endurance
5 - Steadfast Personality
7 - Hellcat Stealth
8 - Skill Focus (UMD)
9 - Dimensional Agility
11 - Dimensional Assault
13 - Dimensional Dervish
15 - Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 1)
16 - Skill Focus (perception)
17 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 9)
19 - Dampen Presence


- - - - -
BAD TOUCH ROGUE
synopsis: using the elf racial FCB and the major magic talent (chill touch) to bypass the usual accuracy issues of the class.
Spoiler:
half-elf rogue (eldritch raider/bandit) 17 / horizon walker 3
(ROG 6/HW 3/ROG 11)
* - dual-minded alt. racial taken

str 16 (5+2), dex 14 (5), con 14 (5), int 13 (3), wis 12 (2), cha 10

traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

talents:
4 - major magic (chill touch 10/day *FCB*)
6 - minor eldritch magic (blur 2/day)
11 - major eldritch magic (twilight knife 2/day)
13* - feat (dimensional savant)
15* - opportunist
17* - skill mastery (stealth, acrobatics, disable device, perception, bluff, sleight of hand)
19* - improved evasion

feats:
1 - racial heritage (gillmen)
3 - extra rogue talent: minor magic (prestidigitation 12/day)
5 - endurance
7 - arcane strike
9 - dimensional agility
11 - dimensional assault
13 - dimensional dervish
15 - quicken spell-like ability (chill touch)
17 - quicken spell-like ability (blur)
19 - quicken spell-like ability (twilight knife)

FCB - minor magic 9 / major magic 8
+X heartseeking keen menacing courageous kukri,
+5 mithral buckler
+6 str/dex belt and wis headband
boots of heroism are a must
clear spindle+wayfinder ASAP


- - - - -
'iconic' rogue v2
synopsis: attempts to combine both of the above, replacing horizon walker with shadowdancer
Spoiler:
half elf rogue (bandit/swashbuckler) 17 / shadowdancer 3
(levels go ROG 6/SD 3/ROG +11)
* - scimitar for swashbuckler weapon; 6 FCB to extra talent (human), 11 FCB to +5 minor/+6 major magic talent uses (elf); dual-minded alt. racial ability taken.

stats - dex>cha>con>wis>int>str (don't dump str!)

traits - trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

talents
2 - combat trick (dervish dance)
4 - combat trick (mobility)
6 - minor magic (detect magic 8/day), major magic (chill touch 8/day)
9 - weapon training (scimitar)
11 - fast stealth
13* - opportunist
15* - ???
17* - ???
19* - ???

feats
1 - weapon finesse
3 - dodge
5 - combat reflexes
7 - steadfast personality
9 - skill focus (stealth)
11 - hellcat stealth
13 - dampen presence
15 - ???
17 - ???
19 - ???

note that these trade out some core rogue abilities with archetypes and regain them with traits--another small middle finger from paizo, but you get used to those.

some require specific deity worship (gorum or torag in this case), but they're not required for the build to function, so don't fret there.

.

and to answer your questions:
1. as far as i know: yes, unless you're attacking from invisibility (regular invisibility breaks after the first attack, only applying sneak attack to that one, unfortunately). any attacks made on an opponent who isn't immune to crits/precision damage, isn't benefiting from some form of concealment, and is denied their dex to AC takes sneak attack damage (flank and invisibility being two of the easier methods to do so).

2. off the top of my head: finesse rogue, combat trick, minor magic (detect magic), and weapon training are pretty-catch-all, with things like major magic (chill touch) for elves/half elves, fast stealth for sneaky builds, and opportunist for builds that can reliably get a flanking partner.

3. some manner of pruning down the class' MADness (such as weapon finesse+weapon focus+slashing/fencing grace or weapon finesse+dervish dance), some way to shore up the class' saves (iron will, great fortitude, steadfast personality, etc.), any feat-taxes you require (such as shadowstrike for races without lowlight or darkvision), and anything that boosts your accuracy. some of the flanking teamwork feats are nice if you have a teammate willing to take them as well.

there's also more niche feat uses, like nature soul+animal ally+boon companion for a full-advancement animal companion as a flanking buddy, hellcat stealth+improved eldritch heritage (shadow well)+dampen presence for near-invisibility via stealth, feinting feats, etc.

4. the "big four" (headband/belt of [STATS], ring of protection, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor), boots of the battle herald (A++ item right there, holy crap!), clear spindle ioun stone+wayfinder off the top of my head.

the heartseeking and menacing weapon enchants can be very helpful as well later on.


domain spells arent SLAs, though they might count if you leveled in the appropriate class (cleric im assuming) to have them granted to you (since at that point you could cast it, presumably).

some domains (such as trickery? and the fate inquisition) grant SLA's of the appropriate levels to qualify for early entry though.

also, iirc domain-granted arcane spells are still counted as divine, since they were given by a divine source.


i would suggest warpriest over fighter--near as many feats (and counts as full bab/fighter level for half of them), better saves, and great class abilities and spellcasting.


so fun fact: with the rough and ready + surprise weapon traits, you can potentially get a +2 trait bonus to attacks with anything (provided you invest a skill point into a relevant profession)

this could even apply to weapons, so long as you used it in an improper fashion (such as a reach weapon in melee, bashing with a longsword pommel, etc.) and you had a rank in profession (guard, soldier, etc) or anything with which that weapon is a 'tool of the trade'.

you'd have to deal with improvised weapon base damage/crit range however, which is a bit of a loss (and due to 3/4 bab, improvised weapon mastery is out of the question).


just say its a hipcheck and carry on.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Mark Hoover wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed some back and forth posts. Be civil to each other, if it's not a comment/opinion about slings, take it elsewhere.
To be fair, they were slinging insults and accusations.
... katanas?

actually 'insult' and 'accusation' are rather good names for enchanted swords, now that you mention it.


Scythia wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Scythia wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
Watch out or you'll spawn a new thread about what the Pathfinder stats for slingshots should be and possibly links to articles about how the slingshot could be an effective weapon on par with bows, guns, ICBMs, or maybe even katanas.
I think I just thought of the ultimate weapon: A bow that fires katana.
go home Archer (nasuverse, not comedic spy), you're drunk.
...you lost me.

fate/stay Archer, who fires swords as a major source of ammunition for his bow, not Archer the from the spy tv show of the same name.


that monk gyazo's dusty airbending corpse is coming for YOU

(soon)


3 people marked this as a favorite.
icehawk333 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:

I wasn't talking "overpowered."

I was talking about this perversion.

... Yeah, you don't need a Summoner to start figuring out ways to get kinky with Pathfinder classes.

  • Any crafter can create an intelligent Dancing weapon, probably a whip
  • Familiars. Animal Companions. Enough said.
  • Hold Person freezes the target "in place". Find a partner into that sort of thing...
  • Unseen Servant. Think about it.
  • Read the Unnatural Lust spell.
  • Alchemist. Tentacles. Enough said.
  • Beast Shape, Monstrous Physique, etc.

    So thus far we have abilities available to:

    Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard, Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Witch, Antipaladin, Samurai, Arcanist, Bloodrager, Hunter, Investigator, Shaman, Skald, Warpriest.

    The only classes that aren't on that list are straight martials (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Gunslinger, Ninja, Brawler, Swashbuckler). Even then, if I scanned through the list of Poisons I could probably find something that would add Rogue and Ninja to the list; same with Barbarians and Rage Powers. That list was entirely off the top of my head, save research to make sure that all the casting classes got access to one of those or had a pet. Or both.

    I can do worse with Mythic. The ability that makes illusions real? Think about that one.

    Seriously, if you're going to ban Summoners as a class for this, you're probably in trouble.

  • Headband of seduction.

    or the Spectacles of Eros

    .

    kestral287 wrote:
    I was trying not to get into items too much, beyond the dancing whip. There are a lot of kinky items, honestly.

    hey, you know that recent potion that changes your gender permanently (and doesn't work on/reverse the effects if someone's pregnant)? yeah, that has no save involved.

    you could use it with say, a syringe spear and use it on enemies (or just force/trick someone into drinking it).


    wear sunglasses?


    Scythia wrote:
    Devilkiller wrote:
    Watch out or you'll spawn a new thread about what the Pathfinder stats for slingshots should be and possibly links to articles about how the slingshot could be an effective weapon on par with bows, guns, ICBMs, or maybe even katanas.
    I think I just thought of the ultimate weapon: A bow that fires katana.

    go home Archer (nasuverse, not comedic spy), you're drunk.


    look into the cord of stubborn resolve--it lets you rage as an immediate action (and get those raging will bonuses) if someone tries anything funny.


    just gonna note: destined bloodline also aids in defensive power (scaling luck bonus to AC/saves, great accuracy). you can actually crossblood with arcane and get arcanes' tasty autobuffs alongside them, too.

    example:
    1 - destined (1 - destined strike)
    4 - destined (4 - fated bloodrager)
    8 - arcane ((4 - arcane bloodrage (or) 8 - greater arcane bloodrage)
    12 - arcane (4 - arcane bloodrage (or) 8 - greater arcane bloodrage)
    16 - arcane (16 - true arcane bloodrage)
    20 - destined (16 - unstoppable (or) 20 - victory or death)

    of course that doesnt play nice with trading out abilities for rage powers for CaGM


    so, are we still arguing over magic jar outsider minutae?

    can't you guys just put it aside and use those big brains/book collections to find an ultrabody that ISN'T an outsider (just for the sake of avoiding these arguments)?


    Seranov wrote:
    Laif wrote:

    Paladin Ragin...that sounds.......Bizarre at least, I'll check just in case but maybe it's too MAD to work with what I have planned.

    Yeah, yeah, WP, BR and whatever THINGS that appear in ACG don't interest me in the least. The las thing I saw was the Mutant Fighter, it was so stupid that didn't even make sense.
    If you want multiclass...pick 2 classes, not an overpowered mix of two.
    But well, that is my opinion, everyone is free to pick them. Not here.

    As I said, I'll check the Paladin.

    Besides THE ARCANEST (and the Skald to a much lesser degree) the majority of the classes in the ACG are hardly overpowered. Maybe compared to the Fighter, but that doesn't take much.

    eh, the arcanist is certainly flashier and has a far superior casting type, it still doesnt top the wizard (just by raw spell advancement, and the fact that the wizard can steal it's shtick if it wants)


    str>cha>con>everything else, just like normal.

    seriously, there's no mad to be found there.


    i'll agree with shadowkire and say if you plan on going the light armor/rapier route then you'll wanna focus on the swashbuckler side--and personally i'd suggest the Daring Champion cavalier archetype over it--and letting the paladin gestalt side serve as a solid base to go upwards from (since it grants great offense and defense without much specialization)

    i'd personally say take weapon bond over a mount, since i find mounts can be a liability sometimes and the extra enhancement bonus (or enchants) are super helpful in the earlier game.


    actually kthulu you'll find that in the real world humans all tend to die from the same type of wounds regardless of training--a bullet to the face kills just about everyone (there's obviously cases where someone will survive those, but those are a very small minority).


    i'll note something here: warpriests make great vital strikers.

    they count as full bab (and full fighter level) for requirements on their bonus feats, letting you grab the vital strike feats earlier than a normal 3/4 bab class, and as a 3/4 bab class you have less iteratives to compete with it damage-wise in the endgame.

    tack on scaling sacred weapon damage dice to a high-crit weapon (wielded two-handed for the damage bonus if that's your thing), the impact enchant, and built-in righteous might on class casting (that you can use fervor to slap on as a swift action) and you've got a recipe for some pretty great damage.

    - - - - -

    another alternative might be the sacred servant (ragathiel) paladin. full bab, amazing bulk and saves, and the rage domain to open up the furious finish feat to maximize VS damage (and you can heal the fatigue with a swift action LoH/mercy).

    as well as great buffs on the spell list and ridiculous self-healing if you grab fey foundling and lesser celestial totem with the rage domain power.


    i'll actually rescind my earlier statement: you always need more dakka.

    to explain (with the help of some folks in the 40k world):
    -Obviously one cannot have too much dakka to solve their problems. Galaxy's a choppy shooty place and dakka's the best answer for that.
    -Consider then what would happen if one were to simply have "enough dakka". This seems like a feasible concept.
    -It's not.
    -If one were to have "enough dakka" and then were to add any more they would reach a state of "too much dakka"
    -Therefore, since too much dakka is an impossibility and enough dakka logically cannot exist without the addition of more creating a state of too much then enough dakka must also be impossible.


    AndIMustMask wrote:
    just popping in to say 'hey take a look at donjon.bin.sh it's got random loot generators by liquid assets, terrain, and monster type'

    goodness, i forgot to add the link in that post. fixed here.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Devilkiller wrote:
    @AndIMustMask - Stop injecting horrible fetishes into our thread! Wait...this thread is kind of a horrible fetish itself...hmm...carry on...err...continue, that is...Anyhow, what's the Lamashtu mask?

    The Demon Mother's Mask was what i was remembering, but apparently it's just animals and for female-users-only.

    [REDACTED, CANT FIND ANYTHING LIKE THIS, MAY BE MISREMEMBERING]

    if you're allowing 3.5 material there was that 'flower of earthly delights' that let literally anything mate with anything (whose fluff example of how it was discovered was that an elf artist wanted to make love to a mountain--the mountain ITSELF, mind you. not anything living on it, because that would be weird)


    4 people marked this as a favorite.

    well, iirc there's that lamashtu mask that lets you impregnate/be impregnated by pretty much anything of the appropriate size categories, which could theoretically let you produce offpsring with one?

    my question is "why" and "what makes you think this kind of Magical Realm would fly at my table"

    .

    David knott 242 wrote:
    Paizo itself has nothing official to say on this topic, as best I can tell.

    i think they're quiet on the matter because they dont want/didn't expect people to follow those mental paths in their game.

    you know, the one with lamashtu being a thing, and with ogre rape/inbreeding being pretty much canon.


    i thought vestigial arms via mutations cant be used to hold/use weapons.


    one could also dip 3 into trench fighter fighter for dex-to damage with firearms, and grab the amateur gunslinger feat for quick clear?


    mountain troll flesh golem?


    hmm. if you're going the nonlethal route: perhaps a 1 or 2-level dip into order of the blue rose daring champion cavalier? panache abilites, fort save boost, other side abilities and +2d6 extra damage when using nonlethal has a lot of draw to it. thug AT + the hurtful feat lets you capitalize on nonlethal damage even further (unless it only works for melee, in which case disregard).

    maybe consider scout rogue to basically be a skirmisher from 3.5?


    intelligent undead are any undead without the mindless trait (far as i know). stuff like ghouls, vampires, ghosts, etc.

    they've got intelligence (and free will), so controlling them will mark you as #1 on their hit list when they eventually break free.

    and they will break free eventually, since they get a save every day, and another save anytime you order them to do anything they don't like.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    just popping in to say 'hey take a look at donjon.bin.sh it's got random loot generators by liquid assets, terrain, and monster type'


    Chess Pwn wrote:
    AndIMustMask wrote:
    it is indeed a book (adds some archetypes and feats for the hybrid classes). there was a little sidebar on the hybrid stuff and older options--specifically citing the bloodrager/dragon disciple thing.
    Can you post that bit with the bloodrager and dragon disciple please? I can't find what you're referencing.

    huh. it only points it out on a chart saying 'these hybrid classes have abilities similar enough to the base to qualify for these prestige classes'.

    Spoiler:
    QUALIFYING FOR PRESTIGE CLASSES
    The following table lists prestige classes from the
    Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or Pathfinder Campaign
    Setting: Paths of Prestige (marked with an asterisk
  • )
    that PCs can potentially gain access to by having levels
    in one of the listed hybrid classes. Your GM may also
    rule that the new classes’ class features can substitute
    for similar features of existing classes for the purposes of
    qualifying for other prestige classes.

    Prestige Class Suitable Entry Classes
    Aldori swordlord* Slayer, swashbuckler
    -----
    Arcane archer Arcanist, bloodrager,
    hunter, slayer
    -----
    Arcane trickster Arcanist, slayer
    -----
    Arclord of Nex* Arcanist
    -----
    Aspis agent* Investigator, slayer
    -----
    Assassin Investigator, slayer
    -----
    Bellflower tiller* Slayer
    -----
    Blackfire Adept* Arcanist, warpriest
    -----
    Brother of the Seal* Brawler, warpriest
    -----
    Daggermark poisoner* Investigator (with the
    Daggermark Lore feat;
    see page 26), slayer
    -----
    Dawnflower dissident* Warpriest
    -----
    Dragon disciple Bloodrager
    -----
    Duelist Investigator, swashbuckler
    -----
    Eldritch knight Arcanist, bloodrager
    -----
    Golden Legionnaire* Hunter, warpriest
    -----
    Gray Gardener* Warpriest
    -----
    Green Faith acolyte* Hunter, shaman
    -----
    Hellknight signifer* Arcanist, bloodrager,
    warpriest
    -----
    Knight of Ozem* Warpriest
    -----
    Lantern Bearer* Hunter, slayer
    -----
    Loremaster Arcanist, shaman, skald,
    warpriest
    -----
    Magaambyan arcanist* Arcanist
    -----
    Mammoth rider* Hunter
    -----
    Mystic theurge Arcanist, shaman
    -----
    Noble scion* Investigator, swashbuckler
    -----
    Pathfinder chronicler Arcanist, investigator, skald
    -----
    Pit fighter* Bloodrager, brawler, slayer
    -----
    Prophet of Kalistrade* Investigator
    -----
    Razmiran priest* Arcanist
    -----
    Riftwarden* Arcanist
    -----
    Shadowdancer Hunter, investigator, slayer
    -----
    Shieldmarshal* Investigator, slayer,
    swashbuckler
    -----
    Skyseeker* Hunter, shaman, warpriest
    -----
    Sleepless detective* Investigator, slayer
    -----
    Storm Kindler* Shaman
    -----
    Tattooed mystic* Arcanist, bloodrager,
    shaman, skald
    -----
    Umbral Court agent* Hunter, shaman, warpriest
    -----
    Veiled illusionist* Arcanist
    -----
    Winter Witch* Shaman

  • so i guess it's the odd position of counting as the dragon bloodline, but not clear on whether it advances it (i'd say it would just by common sense, but some people are dumb/rules-lawyery enough to disregard that)


    it is indeed a book (adds some archetypes and feats for the hybrid classes). there was a little sidebar on the hybrid stuff and older options--specifically citing the bloodrager/dragon disciple thing.


    off the top of my head i'd say:

    admixture wizard 1/order of the staff cavalier or samurai 1/eldritch knight 10/hellknight signifier 8

    note that blasting is exponentially easier and harder to counter/shut down if you're a wordcaster, so ask your DM about using that.

    .

    K-kun the Insane wrote:

    If minimized casting ability is fine, the Eldritch Scion is the spontaneous Magus, though it has a Bard's spell progression. Also gets you a Bloodrager bloodline, though there're remarkably few of those, and I'm not sure if a Dragon Disciple would advance your Bloodrager bloodline or start giving you a Sorcerer's bloodline (which would have to be the same color)

    Again, much slower casting, but spontaneous FTW!

    didnt advanced class origins address the bloodrager/DD interaction?


    (most of which are rather nonlethal)

    it would appear that rogar has hopped in to spark a debate without reading the existing work being put towards one right now! perhaps we should give him some time to catch up and contribute more meaningfully to the discussion at hand.


    the point of chill touch for rogues is going off touch AC for attacks, which helps alleviate their whole issue of '3/4 BAB and no class accuracy boost unlike literally every class not named monk'.

    seeing as ninja is literally a rogue with a more stable method of gaining sneak attack (via invisibility/greater invisibility), it will ALWAYS be better at rogue things than the rogue. if you're gonna argue skills against them, the bard/alchemist/investigator beats rogue and ninja with an arm behind their back.

    i'll also note that the ninja class can't actually take the swashbuckler archetype (since it lacks the trapfinding/sense abilities to replace), making all of my listed builds--which are very intensive on when things are obtained--that use it impossible for a ninja by way of lacking that extra combat trick/feat.

    now they could certainly pull off something similar with a different race or accepting the loss of a feat, but they'd have to come 'online' at a later level than my rogues if they wanted to hit the same notes (as far as i can tell--i haven't built too many ninjas of late).

    .
    EDIT: as for the forgotten trick thing, i'd personally allow it since you're expending a lot of resources and wealth to get it (and it makes you require a high WIS to have a decent ki pool since feats are so precious, making you MAD as well)


    @discOH: a fun fact; swashbuckler rogues are set PERFECTLY for the scimitar/dervish dance--they can grab proficiency via the archetype, and can use combat trick at level 2 for their talent to grab it (which is a level earlier than a magus, for example).

    might be worth noting in your collected options.

    also, another build i threw together (using some of the bits i talked about earlier):

    'iconic' rogue v2 - now with 50% more elf! tries to combine the bad touch and 'iconic' builds with shadowdancer instead of horizon walker.

    Spoiler:
    half elf rogue (bandit/swashbuckler) 17 / shadowdancer 3
    (levels go ROG 6/SD 3/ROG +11)
    falchion as swashbuckler weapon; 6 FCB to extra talent (human), 11 FCB to +5 minor/+6 major magic talent uses (elf)

    stats - dex>cha>con>wis>int>str (don't dump str!)

    traits - trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

    talents
    2 - combat trick (dervish dance)
    4 - combat trick (mobility)
    6 - minor magic (detect magic 8/day), major magic (chill touch 8/day)
    9 - weapon training (scimitar)
    11 - fast stealth
    13* - opportunist
    15* - ???
    17* - ???
    19* - ???

    feats
    1 - weapon finesse
    3 - dodge
    5 - combat reflexes
    7 - steadfast personality
    9 - skill focus (stealth)
    11 - hellcat stealth
    13 - dampen presence
    15 - ???
    17 - ???
    19 - ???


    Mathius wrote:

    Mythic spellbreaker is really big deal. That means I need to be 35 feet away in order for my tactic win.

    Now I need to find a way to deal with wishport to right next to me.
    Sinc you are using 1 sim I will use my 1 sim as an escape route.

    It needs EMF and wish to get me out. I think I can find a way to pull that off.

    Mythic spellbreaker means I need to find away to prevent etherealness in largish area but that I can still teleport in.

    Maybe I can go ethereal and use the metamagic feet to get you in the material.

    Barring that I need to find a way to make your AoO not matter.

    Not sure how yet.

    i'd say "crane style!" but then paizo hates monk options and that is no longer a thing.


    Shisumo wrote:
    Mythic meleeist with an artifact reach weapon won't even be slowed down by wall of suppression. Think you could find room to switch the tonfa for a deadly whip?

    you mean a scorpion whip--deals lethal, counts as whip, and doesnt require a +1 enchant to work!


    Kefler wrote:

    racial heritage ogre

    Savage Critical
    You are able to land critical hits precisely, dealing devastating damage.

    Prerequisites: Str 19, ogre, sneak attack +2d6.
    Benefit: When you hit a creature using the Vital Strike feat or confirm a critical hit against an opponent, add your sneak attack damage to the damage from the attack. This feat has no effect on attacks that already allow you to add sneak attack damage.

    seems like a good option for a critfisher build--vital strike with a falchion or similar 2H weapon fo maximum deeps


    @OP: unsure if pointed out, but you can AoO with an unarmed strike even while using a bow in both hands--you have feet, elbows, knees, and a perfectly good skull to hit people with.

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