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One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is Crossbows and Firearms. They are both a bit wonky and could use some loving in this book.
i would love to see some love for those and other subpar weapons (like the whip)--just streamlining the feat investment to not be so crippling would be a godsend.
i'm also with starfox on the feats thing: unchained feats (actually useful feats without a two-to-four-feat tax) would be spectacular for people who actually rely on them for competence (i.e. anyone who cant cast spells to solve all their problems)
something i'm still noticing: hows the accuracy going along for kineticists?
i note that the bonus damage got buffed for overflow, but if you've still gotta sit at the burn cap to not be a monk or rogue, my earlier point of "why are you required to have far less HP (and still invest way more to get there) than everyone else to be functional in combat" still stands.
that is, unless you pay the touch tax via wild talents and ALWAYS infusing it--which between the burn reduction and more wild talents being known doesn't make that TOO painful (but still annoying)--or does the flexible size bonuses help make up for that?
sounds like you're making burn a bit more worthwhile (between the reductions on input and the bonuses on output), and the extra wild talents and changes to elemental form will certainly help folks feel less pigeonholed in their builds.
definitely digging the gather power changes.
all in all, i approve. i'm definitely looking forward to the final version when it's released.
i still have absolutely no clue how that AT isnt a waste of ink, or why people think it isnt.
in the unchained topic itself last i saw. lemme see if i cant dig it up.
edit: searching the thread, i can find no dev input saying it's not going to have any impact on PFS, though several people express concerns of the various "optional rules" spoken of. there is this post that is partially related (info on unchained, questions on how it might affect PFS), but it seems more focused on the classes themselves,not the optional rules or subsystems introduced in unchained, so i can't say (i'll have to pore over it once i get some time).
so i shall rescind that bit for now, and refrain from saying it in the future until it's confirmed one side or another.
[EDIT]if it's handled anything like wordcasting[EDIT] it'll never be touched again, and will only address the rogue's issues if paizo doesn't miss the point entirely and make the New Rogue even worse by some quirk of the rules (which i wouldn't be surprised at).
that and i find it distasteful that people have to pay money for what should be in the core rules anyway.
Chengar Qordath wrote:
true, but this has gone from the OPs topic (why all the rogue hate--which was explained as not quite the case fairly early on) to The Usual Rogue Thread, which is technically off-topic.
while i wouldn't wish that much work on a mod, it'd be great if someone/thing could automatically consolidate all the 'rogue threads' into a single one (same with the monk). both so there isnt a new one every week, and to the paizo devs can go "oh hey there's TWELVE THOUSAND POSTS in one particular thread saying a class needs help--maybe we should get off our asses and finally address that."
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
if we're posting builds, here's a few of mine:
Focused Study Human swashbuckler Rogue 17 / Horizon Walker 3
(rog 6 / HW 3 / rog +11)
*FCB spent on 2 rogue talents and 5 HP
*scimitar proficiency gained from swashbuckler
traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
- - - - -
Sneaky stabby knife guy
focused study human (knife master/bandit) rogue 20
traits - trap finder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
- - - - -
BAD TOUCH ROGUE
half-elf rogue (eldritch raider/bandit) 17 / horizon walker 3
(ROG 6/HW 3/ROG 11)
* - dual-minded alt. racial taken
str 16 (5+2), dex 14 (5), con 14 (5), int 13 (3), wis 12 (2), cha 10
traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)
FCB - minor magic 9 / major magic 8
twilight knife (despite being only 2/day) is a fantastic spell, since it flanks with you automatically unless it is impossible to do so, and deals up to 5d6 sneak attack damage by itself.
I don't, I'm just working from past experience. they've already said they're taking a step back/away from the established rules to go some new and hopefully not terrible directions with classes/combat/etc. (rogues/monks, general martial options, etc.), but the things like affecting the overall depth and scale of martials vs casters in the world at large would require a pretty extensive rewrite of a great deal of the system.
they only have so many pages to work with in unchained, and if our wonderful little friend the wordcasting system is any indication, this book and any systems introduced (no matter how in need of clarification/editting after the fact) will likely be a standalone that will never ever be touched again. namely because it doesnt play nice with PFS (which the misguided death of crane wing has shown is a top priority for paizo).
for example on the stealth/precision wishlist item: i'm going to hazard a guess and say paizo'll forget some minor thing that still makes the rogue/sneak attack useless in the dark or against minor concealment, and never get around to fixing it (which would completely miss the entire point of trying to make it more accessible).
I'd certainly love to be proven wrong though.
boots of the battle herald. they are FANTASTIC.
also i know i said i was leaving, but it's been like 100+ posts since the OP already said 'thanks guys, thread done', and i was wondering just what you all are still doing here.
not far as ive found--you've gotta hit at least 17 caster level (before items/feats) for 9th level casting, and only for the wizard and cleric.
so (4+3 esoteric / 6+1 esoteric) with +10 to both through MT just barely squeaks by.
on anything with slower casting, you can get 9th on one side and 8th on the other (7+1 esoteric / 3+3 esoteric).
while im not certain how interesting it is, for the group im running (we use a bigass donjon-generated hex worldmap), i only keep track of how long they're going to be on the road (barring interruptions), what the terrain is on their way there (for appropriate encounters, if not necessarily CR-appropriate), and if there's any major holdups or threats in the area, such as horrible weather or major battles.
i keep a short list of curveballs to throw at them (that aren't necessarily fights!) to spice up the world or introduce a small boon or XP bonus.
maybe the forest they camped in was guarded by a dryad who decided to play a trick on them by having the trees move around. maybe they meet a traveler who offers useful advice in exchange for food or other small supplies. maybe they stumble upon a bunch of thieves fighting over a treasure map. maybe they pass a strange rock formation that becomes important later. maybe the fighter wakes to find a boot being carried off by a fairy--cue hilarious Chase encounter through the forest with loot or other bonuses at the end.
there's lots of threads here to snag ideas from as well. they're adventurers; they should have plenty of things to write home about while they're traveling.
that's a fairly solid list there starfox.
some things i'd love to see:
better new rogue talents or fixed old ones--1/day limits and/or being worse at skills thanks to them (*cough*rumormonger*cough*) is garbage and should be thrown away as such. if it helps paizo get over their intense fear of decent rogue talents, have them pretend they're designing rage powers!
means to make precision damage (especially sneak attack) more reliable--such as ignoring certain types of concealment (DARKNESS) or a less selfish (play around where MY character is standing or i'll whine about being useless!) or costly (feinting--you didnt need your most accurate attack anyway, exploiting magical cheese--gozmask+obscuring mist, tiny hut, chill touch spam, etc.) method of actually obtaining it.
a more coherent direction for the base monk class--are they supposed to be mobile or not? as the system currently is, mobility and damage (outside of pounce) is mutually exclusive. leading to my next one...
a means of combat mobility available to everyone, not just barbarians/alchemists/summoners--pounce (and it's lesser kin, such as dimensional dervish) is top dog for anything martial. it let's them finally not be kneecapped by the mere thought of moving. this should not be something that only a select few martial classes get. have it use the 'martial pool' or whatever you're going to call it if you're THAT afraid it will break the game (it wont).
some means for a martial to compete on the same scale as a caster in the lategame--when one guy can literally move mountains, birth new worlds, and shake nations with a whim, while the other is doing exactly the same thing that he's been doing from level 1 (move and swing or stand and swing, those are your only choices) with mildly bigger numbers tacked on, there is something incredibly wrong with that picture.
alternate ways to cast spells--MP systems, wordcasting support, ANYTHING else. occult adventures' psychic magic is a step in that direction already with undercasting. expand on such options further.
more means of 'stat to attack/damage' for things like dex, int, wis that arent so needlessly restrictive--it is absolutely silly that you cannot play a dextrous character until level 3-5 AT MINIMUM (1/4 through your career in paizo's favorite houserule game), or someone that uses their wits or experience over brute strength until even later (if at all!)--in a world where your bearded buddy can hurl lightning bolts at dragons.
while 1, 3, and 6 MIGHT be on the table in unchained, the others are but broken dreams.
unfortunately that is 3pp, and therefore BADWRONGF--er, not allowed in a great many games.
that and paizo should start learning from and correcting their mistakes, not just saying "whoops, book's too old, can't change it or the old buyers'll whine!". if unchained doesnt at least step in that direction in the final product (regardless of being a non-canon material for PFS), i'll have that small feeling of satisfaction of having called it before quitting pathfinder entirely.
hmm. you've got a point about the touch thing (were guns not ranged and feat-intensive i'd consider building a rogue for those).
i wonder how that setup'd work with that gillman racial archetype (half-elf can get it via racial heritage(gillman)) for more SLA levels.
sorry for not browsing the thread to see if this has been asked, but question: im getting some conflicting results on calculating CR for creatures with less than 1 CR--for example, a medium skeleton is CR1/3, so one would assume that you could 'package' three together for a CR1 encounter. this flies in the face of the CR equivalencies chart for multiple monsters, which says that 3 medium skeletons would be an effective CR3&1/3 encounter.
or does each pack of three skeletons count as a single monster for determining CR (so 9 medium skeletons would be a CR4 encounter)?
Examination: underwhelming doesn't even begin to cover it.
-10 bombs at the extreme endgame MAX does not a useful or helpful class ability make (though you are technically correct). that it runs off of INT which you have little need of, due to lots of inbuilt skill points and a crap-tacular will save requiring wis investment (or cha investment and a feat) just makes it worse.
-a single cantrip SLA 3/day does not a caster make (and a single level 1 SLA once per day if you invest further still doesn't--even if you use a precious feat to be able to swap them). that's by 3rd level earliest (by spending a feat on ERT (major magic)). if you wanted to be able to change them, you'd need to wait till 5th.
-esoteric scholar is 1/day, thus complete garbage. do note that the bard also gets half their level to said untrained knowledge checks as well.
-said ki pool is a gimped version of the one granted BY ITS OWN ARCHETYPE, though the wis-focus is rather helpful despite making you as MAD as a monk. as for ninja tricks you are correct, despite most of them requiring you to be 4th level or higher, and since the ki pool is useless without picking up any talents that use it it is full tax-mode from the start.
-favored terrain is true, yes. you require 3-5 to cover most bases, and get a decent bonus to a few skills (more if you invest yet more talents into things like camouflage and HiPS, which cuts into your talent limit further) and nothing else.
here's my problem:
all of these (with the exception of favored terrain, that you can oddly get FASTER than a ranger if you really invest) are completely lobotomized compared to those they try to emulate, while other classes are able to get things like a warpriest's blessings, or a brawler's ability to grab feats, or panache, and so on (admittedly via archetypes).
the rogue gets none of these, and has to pay through the nose for anything else he gets with talents. that they're THIS bad is a slap in the face, and that a very large chunk of classes in the game have access to trapfinder (those that cant can take a simple trait to remedy that) and/or sneak attack.
but what of talents? well, at least three off the top of my head get access to those, but really why bother? most rogue talents are garbage anyway, other than ones that let you get feats (which is also painful to see--rogue talents should be worth spending a feat on, not spending talents for a feat). that paizo keeps cranking our more and more crappy ones while the barbarian is sitting on a pile of unique and powerful options (for a martial character, at least) that only keeps getting bigger is the kind of crap that has made me so cynical towards pathfinder of late.
the ninja is somewhat better off with the ability to become invisible (and therefore actually make use of the class' ONLY COMBAT ABILITY with some regularity) and having some better talents without having to pay a tax.
honestly, if paizo doesn't do something pretty spectacular with unchained, rogues are just going into the bin for my games and being replaced with slayer or investigator (depending on whether the player is more concerned with combat or skills, respectively).
monks i'm still kinda on the fence about, since they at least have a few decent archetypes, and one that is broken in PFS and will never get addressed as a source of trouble.
MoMS' early style access is to blame for crane style's shift to utter uselessness, since it's nicely balanced for the intended level. that PFS cannot into creative monster encounters makes it incredibly potent when you get it earlier than intended.
even when unchained is released, i'm going to be waiting a few weeks before even considering buying it, since i dont want to spend money on a book specifically advertised with rogue enhancements only to find that paizo has completely missed the point yet again and produced more wastes of space for an already unfortunate class.
i mean sure paizo, you get a +4 bonus to kicking a prone target, and you've already built yourself for greater trip and vicious stomp, but come on already.
(emphasis mine) why shouldnt you? wizards can do it.
Alexander Augunas wrote:
how? where? what abilities?
i mean the reverse is certainly true--many other classes can take rogue class' abilities and talents via archetypes or even TRAITS (RRRGH), but i haven't seen anything even CLOSE to resembling what you're saying. hell, the rogue doesn't even get access to slayer and investigator talents for christ's sakes!
do note that the 'one-handed slashing' and 'finessable one-handed slashing' weapon groupss are both different and the latter is incredibly narrow (unless you dip 1 in swashbuckler since swash finesse specifically opens up more options for slashing grace).
barring a few specific weapons (aldori dueling sword, sawtooth saber, etc), going without the swash dip can leave you in the odd situation of having dex to damage, but not dex to attack.
oh goody, this thread again.
short answer: yes.
long answer: yes, are you touched in the head you're MURDERING a SENTIENT SPECIES' BABY. there is literally no way that is ever going to be a good act, and never a not-evil action unless there is some SERIOUSLY extreme circumstances going down, at which point it becomes a very dark moral grey.
the only time this subject EVER gets foggy is when outsiders are involved, what with being a PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF THAT ALIGNMENT (conveniently, afaik they aren't born in the Normal Method and don't grow up--they just come into being as they are, so demon babies aren't as much of a thing to worry about unless it is specifically a demon that takes the appearance of a baby), and even with them alignment is more of an extreme disposition, not a hard-coded thing (a certain succubus in golarion canon we've all heard about being the prime and only example in recent memory).
Is there a way to boost a Wizards melee touch attack other than boosting his / her Strength ability score?
right on the head with that one. well, your question answered, i shall take my leave.
best of luck to everyone.
you are a fine exception o the rule then--though i can see where you're coming from; one person's competence shouldn't come at the expense of everyone else's. and with skills not having quite as large an impact on combat as previous, the 'fight smarter, not harder' skill setups aren't really workable anymore (kirin style eats feats and swift actions something fierce, as well as skills, and 'Know Thy Enemy' classes don't really have enough skill points to capitalize on it properly)
the fighter and sorcerer suffer most for it (both being 2+int/level classes with absolutely no int focus).
true. though apparently they still havent realized how weak many of the talents are, since they keep cranking more out that are just as bad.
i agree on he traps though--deadlier (or at least more challenging) traps should definitely be a thing.
Paizo didn't touch the rogue class much (aside from adding/reorganizing talents), but the rogue got shafted heavily on the system level by a multitude of changes to skills and SA mechanics.
off the top of my head: namely that skill synergies arent a thing anymore, several skills were consolidated (reducing the need to have lots of skill points to spread around), and acrobatics to tumble past an enemy to flank is now ludicrously difficult (was DC15?, now it's enemy CMD, which scales almost exponentially).
getting SA to constructs and undead was nice, but losing it in anything involving concealment REALLY hurt (making the old 'ring of blink/etc' tactic completely unusable and making rogues terrified of the dark).
i mean if you wanted a scary rogue back in 3.5, just wear a ring of (was it blink or displacement?), stack sneak attack + iaiutsu focus and a gnomish quickblade and then cackle maniacally while you throw bucketfuls of dice at the DM.
main problems with rogue are bad defenses (light armor+bad saves on a melee-centric class), bad accuracy (3/4 BAB+no class booster unlike literally everything not named monk), and paizo absolutely hating rogue talents for some reason.
that other classes keep beating it up and rifling through its pockets for loose class abilities (and the rogue doesnt get to return the favor), that's a problem with other classes, not the rogue.
that traps are largely useless outside of a few TPK-tier ones (remobing the need for a trapmonkey for the most part) is a problem with the game, not the rogue.
that sneak attack is ridiculously finicky without 'team-selfishness' (you all need to play around what MY character does, or im going to complain about feeling useless!) or incredibly expensive setups (feinting, dimensional savant, nature soul+animal ally+boon companion, tiny hut archery, darkvision is REQUIRED, etc.) isn't quite a problem with the rogue class itself, but more of just how easy it is to shut down precision damage--such as say, being in a dark alley, ironically.
that sneak attack is their only combat option and they are utterly reliant on it to keep up with their peers IS a rogue problem though.
with the advent of the slayer (what combat rogue should be) and investigator (what skill rogue should be) classes, it's largely superfluous at this point, but again, game problem not rogue problem.
the rogue isn't hated by anyone (except perhaps by the paizo devs), it's pitied. the wasted potential and adamant dev response to never fix it is what most folks i see are upset about.
haunted and/or legalistic would work great off the top of my head.
haunted is fairly harmless and grants extra spells, and legalistic is basically MADE for manipulators--just watch for/make loopholes in any deals you make.
the 'takes too long' bit is a main reason why i make sure my players and i have all our math sorted BEFORE the game, to prevent eating time with unnecessary calculations and spell list checking (because people with spells and people with minions are the worst offenders).
also, not to derail too far afield; for lighter/faster games not tied to PF, i use a rather rules-light frankensteined homebrew system: nWoD-style 'stat-plus-skill-plus-misc' success checks (using d6s that later expand to d8/10/12 based on a player's 'tier') for the little crunch behind the roleplay (a character's mechanical 'sheet' can fit on a 3x5 cue card, which makes bookeeping a breeze).
i've currently got it set up at our table that every player has a 'buddy' who can chip in on descriptions on critical successes/failures to shave down on me and the other players have to do (pretty much the only work i have to do is stat any enemies they might encounter), which is working rather nicely.
pardon the double-post.
golarion =/= earth. the fact that their humanoid fleshy varied people are called 'humans' may merely be a coincidence or quirk of linguistics in translation from 'Common' to 'Whatever Earth Language You Happen To Be Reading Right Now'.
this is a rules-based combat-centric system (and magic happens to be a major thing present). logic has no place here.
logic was bitterly evicted several decades ago and vowed to make the rules pay--sneaking it's way into the dev's dreams and RUINING things like monks, rogues, crossbows, whips, and pretty much anything relating to finesse.
that you seem to be a harbinger of Logic is disturbing, since you are attempting to assert it in a world with beings that regularly ignore the laws of thermodynamics, the square-cube law, and the laws of physics in general. and magic beard-men (and women, they have nice beards too) who play 20 questions with god and then spend all day flying around invisible/unscryable/invulnerable to whatever dangers may somehow manage to find them.
cant you do similar with a half orc via greataxe? also, arent CDGs a fullround action that provokes AoOs? doesnt seem a good idea in combat, and presumably you'd all by tying up/CDGing whoever's left once the battle's over with anyway.
afaik enemies only cower if they cant escape by running away and such, so unless your wizard is boxing you together that's kinda out the window (and also useless against things that can fly)
play a dawnflower dervish bard--you CAN battledance, but AFAIK you can still perform as normal since you have performances that don't work with battledance, (similar situation to the urban barbarian being able to rage as normal or controlled rage).
with lingering performance you can alternate giving your party inspire courage normally, then giving yourself your battledance version (only every other turn, since battledance itself doesnt work with lingering performance--maybe the community-minded trait instead?)
with aasimar's FCB you can really pump the bonuses too.
+1 per 3 rogue levels seems a nice balance for a 'stolen' bardic knowledge talent.
Also a note for these types of talents: you might wanna make some of them mutually exclusive--cant get an animal companion or familiar if you took a mount talent, cant get a paladin weapon bond if you chose an arcane pool, etc. To prevent double-dipping class resources in headachy ways.
Heck, one could take a page from the brawler and give them a per-day resource that they can spend to rip off other classes as needed for X amount of time (3.5's chameleon or factotem did something similar if memory serves)
the basic shtick is just "(early entry divine) + (5 levels in cruouromancer for the sick animate bonuses) + (mystic theurge doublebuckets)", so a great deal can be pruned out or toned down for ease of understanding.
the version i've posted around is a hyper-optimized one that's not actually recommended for play (it's more of a system stress test/thought exercise/endgame-BBEG-who-can-stock-a-dungeon-by-himself build), and could supply a pruned down version if you'd like.