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Clockwork Librarian

AndIMustMask's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 1,971 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Nathanael Love wrote:

Hypothetical New Feat: Versatile Magic

You can combine lower level spell slots to achieve more powerful effects. In order to cast a spell you must expend a total number of spell levels equal to the new level of spell you cast plus 2 for spells 3rd level or lower, plus 4 for spells of 4th through 6th levels, and plus 6 for spells of seventh level or higher.

Therefore, for example you could cast a 6th level spell by using one third level slot, two second level slots, and three first level slots (8 total spell levels).

For example you can cast a 9th level spell by using 5 first level slots, four second level slots, and two third level slots (15 total spell levels).

Is the above feat balanced and fair?

admixture wizards would be salivating id think.

I made a rogue/magus/arcane trickster that seems right up your alley--with the new content itd likely work better as slayer/magus/arcane trickster.

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"I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or ESPers here... come join me. That is all! "

well, we've got androids (the race), time-travelers (the party, later reign of winter), and now espers are joining the fray.

monk and rogue ATs/options for psionic augments


I find summoning rather touchy on anything but standard action chassis--especially when youre trying to be in the thick of things. Too many opportunities to fail.

i was more aiming to say "it's a better caster, but it doesnt matter (in the martial+mage archetype) due to completely overshadowing it's other half."

i was more saying that the magus is better than the wiz/EK at being a martial caster. for EK on a given turn (before the capstone which i already addressed), you're either a martial or a caster--there's no middle ground.

you're CERTAINLY more powerful on the spell end for EK by way of better spell list, but when you're spending more rounds dropping these amazing end-the-encounter spells (pits, clouds, tentacles, SoDs, etc.), why even carry a sword in the first place?

to that end, my opinion for the 'spellsword' niche is: EK is more effective overall (but schizophrenic and it's martial side largely superfluous), whereas magus is less effective overall (but more focused/action-efficient).

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the magus also has the advantages of it's various peripheral class abilities (spell recall, magus arcana, bonus feats, etc.), while the EK gets less bonus feats and a gimped spellstrike as a capstone (you can cast a spell, but still cant use a 2H weapon if the spell requires somatic components--on top of ASF from armor anyway).

i still have to raise my question of how getting great spells later is a point in EK's favor--besides the obvious, naturally. they're supposed to be a combo of might+magic, but in the late game (where they pull ahead of the magus' spell progression) they're going to completely ignore melee anyway due to how much better spells are comparatively. i mean being a roughly 3/4 BAB character in an antimagic field is neat and all, but the magus is that as well, on top of other abilities.

then again these comparisons have gone back and forth since the magus was first introduced.

Rhatahema wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
does it have the semicolon meaning you only need one of the three? otherwise you need BAB 6 AND one of either brawler flurry or flurry for it, unfortunately.
Pummeling Style wrote:
Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.


Darche Schneider wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

It's not an error; there are many ways to legitimately get around that prereq. For example, the cavalier class's tactician ability allows him to grant a teamwork feat to *all* allies, and those allies don't need to meet the prerequisites. So if your party has a cavalier with Share Healing, a witch with a familiar, and a summoner with the eidolon, when the cavalier uses tactician to share Share Healing, all three of those characters can use the feat to split healing with their companion creature.

Also, many time the designers leave in some things as options for future content, even though there's no content in that book that allows it. For example, there could be a future summoner archetype that grants his eidolon a teamwork feat, or a witch archetype that does the same thing, and so on.

So basically you're saying the Devs Steamflogger Boss many times through out the development of the game?

Well It wouldn't be too bad honestly, if well, you didn't need to jump through hoops even after the the future stuff comes in. Its actually a problem I've seen quite a lot honestly. Hoop jumpin feats and features, that by the time you've managed to jump through all the hoops, you find you haven't even gone five feet yet from your starting position.

Obviously I can't comment on what could come in the future, but in the past, many Rogue talents are like this. Where you've gotta get sneak attack, after taking a -2 penalty to hit, take a full round action, shout out the name of a saint as a free action, sacrifice the damage you would have have gotten from sneak attack, to preform a combat maneuver from a limited pool of maneuvers that most could have been used in place of an attack, as a swift action, that still provokes attack of opportunity while wearing white after labor day.

becuase certainly those OP rogue talents should get toned down--i mean just LOOK at greater beast totem! getting pounce on a PC is ridiculous, or being able to vital strike+spring attack (which is obviously broken if the devs are to be believed) with bestial leaper! and don't even get me started on superstitious and spell sund--oh? those are for the barbarian?

The Genie wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

by it's current wording extra panache doesn't stack with itself (and if it did, one could say it works like 3.5's font of inspiration, which would get cheesy very fast).

definitely needs an edit.

Beat me to it, got my own thread tagged for FAQ on such a question.

that's actually why i made this post--i saw your thread and thought it worth noting here. didn't mean to steal your thunder there.

Rynjin wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
The fluff of the feat describes it a one wild punch. It could be Kirk's Shat-fu double hammer fist, a superman flying punch, or a FALCON PUNCH, but it's one hit.
Honestly I figured it was more like a Kugi Punch than those.

eyyy, toriko reference!

by it's current wording extra panache doesn't stack with itself (and if it did, one could say it works like 3.5's font of inspiration, which would get cheesy very fast).

definitely needs an edit.

graystone wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Don't see why not, 2 seperate classes, 2 seperate ability names, 2 seperate types (one is Ex the other is Su), and both are untyped. That is the very definition of stackable xD
We're still waiting on the FAQ but the only designer word on such is that an ability score counts as a source and thus doesn't stack with itself. I find it a tad ridiculous but that is the last word that paizo has given thus far.
Well, to be completely accurate, He's said both that they can stack and that they can't in different posts. If you're looking for a clear answer, James isn't what you're looking for.

since it pertains to the monk, i'd hazard a guess that SKR wouldn't be very helpful either.

high BAB class levels (like going into EK+hellknight signifier), or really heavy buff reliance (which magus does have fairly easy access to via his pool and the BB's pool, as well as the magus and wizard spell lists).

does it have the semicolon meaning you only need one of the three? otherwise you need BAB 6 AND one of either brawler flurry or flurry for it, unfortunately.

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Liam Warner wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

@sandal and zodiac: that's literally the only thing that makes PrCs like eldritch knight or mystic theurge even worth looking at. otherwise the magus outclasses the EK pretty much entirely (and with less paperwork involved), and MT is a poor stunted little man who never accomplishes anything before level 14+ (see: when most adventures are over and done with).

it makes arcane archer and arcane trickster (iirc) worth considering more as well, along with a great many others that you would need to otherwise sink levels and levels into something that's only marginally good, if that.

Actually personally I'd take the hit if I could get in a game going high enough I could multi-class into EK simply because of the fact that a magus for all their nifty abilities don't get higher than 6th level spells. An EK even with the level hit will get you 9th level spells in the end and a decent amount of 7/8th level ones. Really Magus and EK are to me flipped sides of a coin with the magus being more martialy and the EK more magically focused.

main issue i find with that is that in the end you're just a wizard with less CL, because what is the point of having a sword if your spells will do literally everything better for you? and given that you have to choose whether you're going to stab someone OR cast a spell each turn, you're bogged down with decisions.

and the magus can use it's magic AND it's combat at the same time, which puts it leagues ahead of the EK in overall efficiency at level 2.

edit: blade adept arcanist gets around this somewhat, but requires you to have at MINIMUM 7 levels in arcanist (because the AT eats the level 1-3 ones, and level 5 will HAVE to be eldritch blade if you want any use out of the thing in EK, allowing you to get the spellstrike exploit at level 7), which means it only comes online at level 8 at the earliest (1 full BAB / 7 arcanist / 10 EK)? and 18 if you go all-in on EK as soon as possible (early entry: full bab 1 / arcanist 1 / EK 10 / arcanist 6)

edit-edit: actually you only need 5 levels in arcanist (if you take the extra exploit feat), so reduce the levels stated above by 2 in that case.

afaik it just says caster level (not your arcanist caster level). i assume it takes your highest caster level (in this case the magus' once you get to level 11+).

that said, if that is the case, then arcanist (and eldritch blade y extension) wouldn't even be worth looking at for literally anything but EK/hellknight signifier, which seems too needlessly restrictive--even for paizo's usually dumb decisions.

has he seen/considered going fighter/wiz/eldritch knight? the graveknight template seems tailor-made for a mounted guy (and is effectively the melee-equivalent of the lich)

i'm not sure on how to get lichdom earlier (and wouldnt suggest it, since it's really powerful). as for castin from the horse, consider either silent/still spell, or just go the rule of cool route and fluff it as the horse.

or take the arcanist class instead of wizard, since it can get a witch-style bonded animal that holds your spells for you (and can cast them, iirc). it also fits for a guy who's aiming to break the rules of magic.

also-also, he DOES realize how (comparitively) cheap it is to bring someone back form the dead without resorting to immortal evil undeadness, right?

investigator also gets a hefty static bonus to hit/damage on TOP of the ability to roll lots of dice at you, so he can hit stuff right along with the slayer.

sounds cool, but if you're going to play a banner-wearing mounted charging character with team synergy, why not just go straight cavalier?

those tactics aren't really rogue-like so i'm not sure the majority would accept it (though i'd hate to imply that doing this would be playing the class 'wrong' somehow).

i'd actually say ranger (provided you've got some direction for your favored enemies, or go with freebooter or guide to circumvent that).

if you go cavalier, i'd say order of the sword so it has an immediate effect, since dragon's really bro-tier abilities come in late--later still with the SD 3 dip.

lame oracle 1 / urban+invulnerable rager barbarian 4 is powerful and can still use skills in rage. grab a headband of havoc.

you could alternatively go 2-handed fighter 5. stupendous damage output, and the only feat you NEED is power attack so the rest can be spent on the prereqs. once you hit 3rd level SD, you can take arcane strike for yet more damage (since you don't often use your swift action as a martial class who isnt named swashbuckler or monk).

rogue works decently (despite it's basic failings) once you get the shadow companion, since it gives you a fairly reliable flank-buddy to set up sneak attacks with. combine the shadow's STR damage with the crippling strike rogue talent and the pressure points ninja talent (with optional poisons), and you're a stat-debuffing fiend--provided you can keep your to-hit up.

(for fighter and rogue an incredibly helpful feat from the ACG is the steadfast resolve feat. it makes having a low will save not a death sentence at 9th+ level. ask your GM if he could at least allow that, even if he's banning the classes outright)

holy mother of necromancy, batman!

i'm kinda tempted to try crossblooded arcane+abyssal to squeeze in the scaling STR increase and the free enlarge person onto the hate+blur+transformation buff package.

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a build for a tanky BR i threw together to try out the crossblooded AT:

halfling crossblooded rager (destined/arcane) 20
*fleet of foot alt. racial ability taken
** - FCB spent on +5 dodge AC against anything medium size and up

START - str 14 (10-2r), dex 14 (2+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 10, cha 15 (3+2r)
END - str 28 (36 rage), dex 20, con 20 (28 rage), int 16, wis 16, cha 28
cha/str/str/str/str (level), +6 all (gear), +4 str/cha (book/wish)

traits: fortune's favored / ???

bloodrage rounds: 47 (4+5+38)

bloodline abilities:
1 - destined (1 - destined strike)
4 - destined (4 - fated bloodrager)
8 - arcane (8 - greater arcane bloodrage)
12 - arcane (4 - arcane bloodrage)
16 - arcane (16 - true arcane bloodrage)
20 - destined (16 - unstoppable)

1 - power attack
3 - arcane strike
5 - blooded arcane strike
6 - weapon focus (???)*
7 - lunge
9 - steadfast personality, improved initiative*
11 - blasting charge
12 - lightning reflexes*
13 - rage casting
15 - riving strike, iron will*
17 - raging absorption
18 - leadership*
19 - ???

bonus spells:
7 - shield
10 - invisibility
13 - lightning bolt
16 - dimension door

(bloodraging with free blur, haste, and one of beast shape 4/form of the dragon 1/transformation, wielding a +5 keen furious courageous impact falchion)
AC 53 (10 + 10 mithral breastplate, 5 dex, 7 dodge, 5 natural, 5 deflect, 6 luck, 1 size, 4 shield (spell))
SAVES 36f/25r/36w (12/6/6 class, 5/5/3 stats, 6/6/6 luck, 5/5/5 cloak, 0/2/10 feats, 1/1/1 race, 7/0/5 rage+courageous)

but yeah, halflings make surprisingly good bloodragers--who knew?

First rule of spell mastery: never take it at advertised level. Wait until you get 5th-6th level spells and grab it for those emergency spells (plane shift, overland flight, greater invisibility, emergency force sphere, teleport/greater teleport, wall of stone, etc.) for when youre trapped by gm contrivance without your spellbook.

You can grab a great many spells this way due to your stellar int at those levels, and you will never be reduced to a mere commoner by the loss or destruction of a book--not that you shouldnt have backups for this situation, but spell mastery helps you physically get to or fight your way to your stronghold where those backups are while you plan your revenge.

actually it IS a trait for a few weapons (there's trait bonuses to hit with things like improv weapons, aldori dueling swords and longswords, etc.), for the improv weapons one weapon focus is actually WORSE than the trait.

is wayfinder mag official paizo stuff?

nobody brought up ladders as a reach improv weapon? really?

carpenters use ladders all the time.

alright, since folks seem to be going back and forth with 'nuh-uh' 'yes-huh', i'm just going to mark it as FAQ and take my leave. best of luck with the build OP.

main issue is the terrible offensive (non-buff) spell list and the 'best' spells he gets for that are limited to 4th level, which is unimpressive at best (compared to say, charging in and stabbing them to death).


then what is even the point of multiweapon fighting? i mean by the name i'd guess it's for folks with three or more arms that can hold/use weapons (alchemist doesn't count since it's arms are specifically cited to be unable to attack). like a strix or kaliklang or whatever its called with four longswords or somesuch.

i thought multiweapon fighting only reduced the secondary natural attack penalties for having boatloads of natural attacks (like dragons can have gore/bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail slap)

hence why you tack on the slam (or claw) evo, so they have an actual attack associated with them.

also i just noticed that eidolons have a hard-cap on how many natural attacks they can make in one turn (regardless of how many they have, which monsters do not share this limitation), which is quite a limiting factor. though couldnt you full attack with unarmed strikes (using kicks, headbutts, pelvic thrusts, whatever), then following with your slam or claw natural routine as secondary natural attacks up to the natural attack limit.

in which case you'd need multiweapon fighting (though its granted free by the eidolon progression iirc) and TWF or flurry for the unarmed side to get more attacks in.

it's cool. ball of arms man is a part of all of us, whether we know of him or not.

question: why not just go arms+slam evolutions, then grab the feral combat feat? since your slams now count as unarmed strikes for the purpose of anything that calls them out, you can now use--and this is just an example here--pummeling style with 26attack/damage inputs while moving. (actually you can do that without feral combat training due to pummeling styles poor wording not actually limiting it to unarmed strikes--despite the fluff text, this is just assuming they'll errata it for sanity's sake)

also, i love that someone it trying to build Ball of Arms Man.

i've always wanted to play a synth summoner who was basically a miniature hecatoncheires

would make the... transformative? enchant a bit more useful.

folks without it (because it IS a hefty enchant iirc) will have the age-old issue of being forced to carry a golfbag full of special weapons that would eat martials WBL more than they already do.

even lesser quicken rods are super useful (especially if you keep them stored in glove of holding for easy use/stowing)

also: using invisibility (or greater invisibility) to drop things like SA + shocking grasp or acid arrows is great (the latter good for annoying mages).

wait, you dont come online for dex until 6th?

doesnt that make your early career pure liquid suffering?


on topic, i'm considering just using a swashbuckler dip to grab slashing grace (sawtooth saber) at 1st level, then going the TWF/feint route in rogue.

elemental fist wrote:
Special: A monk of the four winds receives Elemental Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt an Elemental Fist attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
monk of the 4 winds wrote:
At 1st level, a monk of the four winds gains Elemental Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, the monk increases the damage of his Elemental Fist by 1d6 (2d6 at 5th level, 3d6 at 10th level, and so on).

emphasis mine.

it's a bit more often than 1-2-3/day, but you've got the damage pegged. being able to hit any elemental weakness (other than sonic and force) is handy, as is extra damage.

your post is a tad unfair since literally ANY damage is worse than a +1 to hit (regardless of how high one's damage is, if he can't hit anything that number is effectively 0), unless you're a class such as fighter/ranger/slayer/barbarian/paladin/cavalier who already has stupid-high accuracy (even after power attack) due to full BAB and their various class abilities, at which point the damage is a nice touch.

best way i can tell is just find everyone's average damage on attacks (after static modifiers like strength, power attack, etc.), spell damage, and so on.

have casters keep their spell DCs (and what save they affect), SR or no, etc. on-hand to expedite the process of casting.

when someone hits with an attack roll or spell, slap the damage on and move to the next character--let the player describe the attack, since it's shifting from the whims of fate (being an awesome high level warrior and rolling minimum damage is a terrible feeling) to something faster and more cinematic.

the DM can do this with enemies as well to speed them up as well.

DnD 4e has a neat system for encounters (minions, elites, and bosses) that allows for more cinematic battles by having dedicated mooks to be cleaved through in a single hit (making the fighter feel good having taken those feats for once) or taken out en masse by AoE spells and so on, with elites and bosses getting more turns/HP to allow a single villain to be an adequate challenge for a party of 4-6 without getting swamped by way of the party's superior action economy.

quiet threeshades, you're making sense! paizo might hear you.

look at dragon ferocity again, and how it interacts with elemental fist.

it's a lot more than 1d6 1/day, because you're treated as a monk of the 4 winds for the purpose of EF's advancement.

unfiltered comments:

you'll want to have a line saying that wits count as grit for the purposes of feats pertaining to grit (like panache does).

i'm liking the save advancement, though i'd be fine with plain 4+int skill points (though using wis instead is definitely cool), but right out of the gate i see a problem: no weapon training. this leaves he slayer and ranger (or anyone else who can pump their to-hit and damage via smite/rage/etc.) better at fighting than you. armor training is largely a formailty beyond the movement penalty removal. maybe roll the two into one 'battle prowess' ability or something?

might wanna change flexible defense to "until the beginning of your next turn"

perhaps outright immunity to fear at 1st level is a bit much--a scaling bonus to it might be cool (and it branching out to enchantments and compulsions as it advances would be great) sort of like a mental "favored enemy" mechanic--pick one mental assault type, add +2 to it and your previously selected ones.

might wanna make the feat-swap thing a swift action (or move action downgrading to swift) to make it not outright better than the brawler mechanic.

instinctual defense could be for rounds/level instead of a flat minute and still be great.

i notice a lot of deeds are free actions. this is great, but im not sure about how much more open-ended this is compared to other deed classes (the fighter should be on-par, not completely eclipse them--which is the last thing i expected to say about the fighter), though you certainly dont want to end up with the swashbuckler's disgusting swift action bottleneck.

pretty sure rough and ready should cost an action to prevent someone dropping several points at once and never taking actual HP damage.

similar reasoning with cautious aim--you could spend several points to make your entire full attack all crits otherwise.

combat vigilance might wanna take rough terrain and such into account as well as occupied spaces, and lists no action whatsoever

might wanna make perfect thrust any weapon that you've got weapon training in.

your gut shot debuffs seem to vary wildly in effectiveness. stunned or blinded/nauseated seem the obvious choices.

these are off the top of my head, and from my point of view, so folks will likely disagree.

all in all it's pretty cool so far (my comments aside).

edit: noting your stance on combat expertise, consider just giving it as a bonus feat at level 1.

Undone wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Undone wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

its nice to see other folks have seen the ip man movies.

also, if you limit it only to characters with the flurry of blows or brawler's flurry abilities, and with only unarmed attacks, melee-only 'monk' weapons (allowing for use with things like the temple sword and such), and the close weapon group (for cestus/gauntlet/brss knuckles/other faesible "punching" weapons), it completely removes the issue of MoMS abusing it, since they dont get flurry, and ZA, since bows arent melee weapons.

only monk abuser that benefits in that case is the sohei, and they can already go for pounce via completely prereq free mounted skirmisher, since their bonus feat list is literally "all mounted combat feats" without any level distinctions set to avoid such abuse.

Nope, MoMS + Sacred fist.

^^^ This

honestly I feel like the MoMS 2/Sacred Fist X will probably become the standard for Unarmed Martial experts... I mean, the Sacred Fist is just full of awesome-ness and that 2 level dip into MoMS just makes them stupid mean (especially with their double dip Wis to AC)

I prefer MoMS 1 + Sacred fist, I can't come up with a second style that is worth activating over casting divine favor off fervor early on.

dragon style is helpful for getting around (or rather through/over) terrain and getting full elemental fist advancement (which is very helpful for damage output), snake is useful for defense and countering, panther works great if you provoke while moving (especially paired with vicious stomp and later greater rip: panther parry to trip, stomp, then gtr. trip AoO). boar has its uses for impale, monkey for defensive and mobility shenanigans, shaitan (the water/ice one?) works great with dragon+elemental fist for some debuffing goodies, and so on.

i'm rating them in that order, btw. also does that flying kick style (djinni i think?) work with pummeling style?

also what are the sources on their wis-to-ac abilities, since they might not stack.


also just realized my suggested fix still opens the door for things like crusader cleric (shizuru) 1/monk X with crusader's flurry to pummeling style with a katana for crazy crit shenanigans.

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true, but they'd need to really bear down on it to get enough folks to notice. everyone here knows this'll be but an unpleasant memory in a few months before the next book comes out (that we will excitedly shell out money for) and the process repeats itself when we notice the flaws in THAT. the problems of now will be forgotten in lieu of arguing and debating and pleading with paizo for a fix on the new material, and they'll throw us a bone or two and the arguments and debates and begging of right now will be completely forgotten. when we DO realize it's been ignored, they'll say it's been to long and to change it would invalidate the purchases of everyone earlier. it's how things in the CRB (those three classes we're not allowed to talk about) still haven't managed to be fixed.

neither we nor them will learn, and once the powercreep and bloat reach critical mass piazo (or another company) will consider a reboot, leaving all this to be ignored entirely as they make the same mistakes in the next version, which will in turn be met with this same process.



problem -> complaints from userbase -> bone thrown to appease us until the next book release -> book release causes new problem -> complaints from userbase -> bone thrown to appease us etc. -> 'what about those other problems?' -> 'too late can't break pagecount and hurt the buyers'

repeat until too large to support itself, then reboot the series and begin again.

and while all of us might go 'oh there's no way that could happen to me, my input matters to paizo!', it really doesn't.

yes i'm bitter about it.

not in all games (see: anything at all set in osirion or similarly arid, such as those plateau'd badlands in mwangi, the abyss via WotR, etc.), and certainly not at low levels unless you've got a cleric or similar in the party.

once you can buy a decanter of endless water you're golden though.

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i'd say let folks move+full attack like a mobile fighter at/after 11th level (or form 6th if they take a small penalty--like an inverted charge bonus), and/or maybe allowing a 5-foot-step between all attacks. works great for making martial characters more mobile in combat.

though that's in homebrew/suggestions territory since paizo will never take advice from us mere plebians

its nice to see other folks have seen the ip man movies.

also, if you limit it only to characters with the flurry of blows or brawler's flurry abilities, and with only unarmed attacks, melee-only 'monk' weapons (allowing for use with things like the temple sword and such), and the close weapon group (for cestus/gauntlet/brss knuckles/other faesible "punching" weapons), it completely removes the issue of MoMS abusing it, since they dont get flurry, and ZA, since bows arent melee weapons.

only monk abuser that benefits in that case is the sohei, and they can already go for pounce via completely prereq free mounted skirmisher, since their bonus feat list is literally "all mounted combat feats" without any level distinctions set to avoid such abuse.

Nicos wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
They could0d I guess just faq the feat to mean any weapon held in one hand, but that might be going too far the other way.
The correct way is to FAQ/errata the feat, I have no idea how anyone could think differently. The "we will publish the fix in that other book", is a bad idea, seems to me that is very bad for the business.

actually it is by definition good for (their) business, since they're forcing you to buy another product.

or on a charge (though that might open up cavalier shenanigans until they get mounted skirmisher and ignore it entirely)

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