i'm pretty cool with this class, but as noted all over the thread, it needs just a bit of tweaking to get things more comfortable:
-make the weapon base increase more average--I'd be happy with it capping at 2d4 or 1d10 with 19-20 x2 crit (or the base weapon stats if it's better, such as the greatsword's damage or the kukri's crit), have it apply to the warpriest as long as their using/attacking with the weapon, but not while anyone else uses/holds the weapon (so throwing builds work *cough pharasma cough*, but they can't hand out greatsword-daggers to party memebers).
also, I wouldnt wish 2+int skill points on my worst enemy. the only folks who i can deal with having it are int-based classes (such as wizard, witch, alchemist, etc. and the alchemist gets more than that), since their core stat covers the difference. Even the fighter shouldn't have to deal with it--it's one of the reasons the lore warden is so well-liked (along with it's ability to actually USE combat maneuvers, unlike most everyone else), but I digress.
pretty sure hybrids are supposed to be just two classes together (the shaman's odd druid-cuckolding notwithstanding).
though an oracle/sorc and cleric/wizard would likely not need to take MT at all--i can definitely see folks using arcanist as an entry class into MT in the future though, since it's spellcasting method is tasty.
i dont recommend lightning stance, personally (since it requires a double move or withdraw to activate), but hey, every style needs a trap option.
actually, mobile style might be better off with dodge/mobility/spring attack/whirlwind attack/wind stance/step up/following step/step up and strike (not listed in any particular order), so it stays with being mobile, instead of being a mobile-dex style.
Dispari Scuro wrote:
true, not everyone flocks to those. i was more talking about things like knives, shortswords, rapiers, katanas, swordcanes, etc.--even if they're not the best, i'd love to see things like that (generally finessable weapons) get the option to be DEX'able on-par with what a basic character with no feat investment gets with their strength.
I'd MUCH prefer it be built into the system from the start, but I'll take what I can get.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Okay...for all you Dex damage junkies, we are looking into options that allow you to do it, but they will probably be more like Dervish Dance -- that is options that you feat into.
I am totally fine with more feat options for dex to damage--it opens the way for others beyond 'bucklers! so not every magus and their mother will have a scimitar in-hand anymore!
though i hope it's a tad more flexible in what you can pick for it, and not just another "this weapon and ONLY this weapon", because then you'd simply be turning those magi from the scimitar into magi with whatever the new weapon is--i'd love to see some variance.
why in god's name would you use sift? it incurs a higher penalty than if you'd simply looked from where you're standing (sift is -5 for 30ft search, perception is -3 for 30ft search)!
also, never could figure out how open/close is useful--it only works on already unlocked (no door bars, locks, or other things that resist opening it) things that are under 30 pounds.
i usually just get detect magic--easy way to find magical traps or other nastiness beforehand so you can deal with them safely.
as for the investigator changes: definitely an improvement from what it was previously, though i'll reserve my judgment on whether it's still too wimpy or not until after i actually test it out.
Azaelas Fayth wrote:
At higher levels it can be excellent against the BBEG... It makes a perfect finisher.
hence why i grab it at 15-ish. if i kill the big guy and there's other fights later, i can rely on my other powers, spells, and general paladin badassery to pull me through.
at the very least the big threat earlier is most assuredly dead, so no regrets there.
Chris Lambertz wrote:
the moogle thing is mostly drawn from experiences with crystal chronicles, where you need to slow down occasionally for mog to keep up, and the fact that moogles in FF12 (at least according to the wiki) largely can't fly. that, with their tiny little legs is what spurred the speed choice.
i'm not sure how to penalize their vision specifically (since they apparently have good hearing and smell), maybe light sensitivity?
actually the seeq stats were off for some reason, they were supposed to be +2 con/wis, -2 int (they're described as tough and crafty, but with crude speech and lower intelligence).
to both of you: on the viera cha penalty, it's mostly due to how closed-off they are from the other races (in FF12, even those who had left the woods to see the world were still a bit aloof and hard to gauge), which causes a good deal of disconnect in social situations. though this isnt present in the tactics games, so a con penalty mihgt make more sense--i'm hesitant to penalize strength though.
pretty sure at that point you dont have a king to follow at that point. you could shift it to following a deity or some kingly ideal instead i suppose, as long as they're "farther up the chain" than you consider yourself.
care to elaborate?I mostly use it to tack on some extra damage with the frankly disgusting number of LoH i have laying about on something that simply NEEDS to die, and only grab it later (15, 17, or 19) after i've gotten the bigger contenders for my feat slots.
dip 1 in oracle of metal or fire for dance of blades or cinder dance. both give a +10 move boost and some utility powers (and the ability to take other revelations via feat), some utility magics, and the legalistic "curse" (while making you a bit more honor-bound, lest ye be debuffed) can make for a nice buff when you need it.
boots o' striding/springing are helpful, as is expeditious retreat/haste if you can get them.
and given the time you've spent preparing to actually USE the move, and you're giving up your hit bonus pretty much permanently (because a once/enemy/24-hour limit in a fight means that person should be dead after the fight, barring contingency teleport shenanigans) against that opponent, it'd better be the freaking killing blow.
Casting a Fireball at 10th level with Spell Focus and GSF with a 16 Charisma puts the DC at 18. 10d6 damage dealt in an area. Average of 35 damage against multiple targets. For a creature with a Bad Reflex save thats a 50/50 chance.
for a creature with a bad reflex. what of everything above that? at level ten you're better off simply reaching over and stabbing the guy than casting the fireball at all.
I agree with scavion for the most part, though i'm still on the fence about the DCs comment. even with the feats you'll still be 2-5 lower than whatever anyone else is slinging about, which can mean the difference of having the spell be POSSIBLE to use or just swinging because they're going to resist/save from it with no problems anyway.
then again, I still havent actually taken a hard look at the numbers here, and as has been shown to me before, even with the lower DCs your spells can still be respectable (the example given was with black tentacles, which has since been removed from the spell list in a cruel twist of fate--well, for anyone not an aberrant bloodline BR, at level 16)
but yeah, the freakishly late bonus spells-that-you've-had-available-for-a-while is kinda dumb.
new edition? you mean years/decades/possibly not at all? that's a long time to wait for the core material (you know, that thing most players are introduced to when they express interest in the game?) to fix a trap option.
EDIT: correction: not trap option, mediocre option.
eh, the mobility, natural armor, tasty stat increases, and free (nice) buffs via FotD seems a pretty decent trade for someone mainly combat-oriented, with spells available if they want them. CL17 can be mitigated with a trait (magical knack) and surpassed with an orange prism ioun stone (slotted in a wayfinder), it's not terribly expensive by the time you need it anyway, so you're not losing too much in the deal.
Just popping int to say I'm quite liking the class, but the various action costs need to be moved around--far too many things vying for your once-per-turn swift action, when they could be changed to free or move-actions-also-available-as-part-of-a-full-attack. or expand how many swift actions you get per turn--only for use with panache things, natrually.
also parrycould do with being done AFTER the incoming attack, because otherwise you'll generally waste your panache.
honestly it's not hard to think of a design philosophy for them now--aim for it to be unique, but somewhere between the "parents" in power, not outshining them (unless that parent is a monk or rogue, because they're kinda deadbeat parents).
I was about to say "It's not american", but then it struck me that there are other americas than 'Murica.
I am deeply ashamed.
that's a real shame for pharasma then.
might be cool.
if you're looking for ideas, check out bodhi's guide to the paladin and antipaladin in the sticky at the top of the advice forum--it's an optimization guide, yes, but you don't have to follow it to the letter. It has some good ideas for you to build off of.
personally i'd recommend picking up unsanctioned knowledge, furious focus, greater mercy, and ultimate mercy or radiant charge (both are nice, but not required) later on.
lunge is greatly helpful--it increases your murder-radius, and makes you a bigger target (by hitting your AC), which keeps the ehat off your allies.
some early feats that help streamline you might be fey foundling (gives your LoH a little more oomph when used on yourself), and/or noble scion (scion of war, uses your CHA for initiative, rather than DEX).
(these are all just to give you suggestions or ideas)
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
i'd love to see a greater force strike exploit, as well as maybe stuff to augment different schools (because necromancy needs love, and also corpses), not just the wizard emulation powers.
also an exploit or feat to bump up the (kinda terrible) base dice for the blasty exploits.
Turkus Longfist wrote:
at the cost of eating your standard action from the previous turn (unless you grab quick study), which is a big loss. And since it only lasts 1 round that day against that guy, and you immediately lose the bonus you worked to get if you use it's paired ability (effectively a free full sneak attack on ONE hit), it's rather hard to justify using it when you could just attack (or just stand back and let the party handle it, like theyre already doing while youre standing around studying every enemy every other turn or so).
since it was brought up that core class AT's will let them "get their feet wet" with the hybrid abilities (rogue grabbing studied combat/strike was specifically mentioned, iirc), might actually make it appetizing to rogues--they might actually hit things then!
updated my pre-revision slayer build to the new doc:
human slayer 6 / horizon walker 3 / slayer +11
talents (effective slayer level):
ends up with:
reach + trip shenanigans, self-flanking for easy sneak attack + opportunist for an extra swing (you are your own ally). Post-PFS you tack on fearstacking shenanigans to the mix.
all in all, pretty decent.
But I would have the best fist in the game, right? Is there some other way to get 18th-19th level monk-type damage with boatloads of enhancements and the ability to cast GMW on myself?
i could totes see a WP of irori dipping 3 in (MoMS?) monk for monastic legacy and massive base damage.
alright, now that i've got time to really pour over the arcanist's revision, i'm liking some of the powers (school understanding, bloodline development, and (greater) metamagic knowledge/metamixing make for a really flexible arcanist).
consume magic item got a nerf, but eh.
counterspell + counter drain is still decent, and the disrupt spell ones are okay as well.
spell tinkerer can no longer psuedo-permanance things (until higher level buffs come about, anyway), so that's okay.
on the elemental blasts:
-force is alright for sustained damage i guess, but it doesnt get a greater version for some reason. i'd love to see a toppling spell-esque greater exploit for it.
i'd add a feat or exploit for arcanists to bump the bace dice of the blasts up a step, but other than that minor quibble i'm rather happy with how the class looks.
also in case anyone hasnt pointed it out yet, theres an error in the ice missile entry:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
it was less on optimization and more on a lack of basic functionality, but yes, i'll drop it.
honestly i would:
-remove the once/24-hour/target limitation (why in the name of all that's holy would you suddenly forget how to hit someone you JUST studied), and remove the text that it ends when you use studied strike.
-for studied strike add either a built-in option for debuffs, or add talents that let you trade the bonus dice for debuffs.
there, now it's a less impressive version of favored enemy/smite/challenge and still not compltely lobotomized.
rogue isnt a dex based attacker without at least two feats or a feat and monetary investment, and wont be as effective as a rogue who invested in strength instead. the rogue cant function in the dark without darkvision or another feat or two (shadowstrike or the twilight stalkers), cant function against concealment without an expensive item (headband of ninjutsu) or those aforementioned feats.
stealth is shut down hilariously easily by alternate sense types unless you invest at least 5 feats (dampen presense, hellcat stealth for HiPS (light), and either an SD dip--which has prereqs--for HiPS (darkness) or imp. eldritch heritage--which also has prereqs--for the same) and more money spent (boots of soft step, oils of negate aroma, etc). they are shot in the foot by their restrictive mechanics behind their core combat ability that no other class has to deal with.
and EVERYONE CAN USE UMD. EVERYONE can poach from wands and scrolls, even if theyre at 3 less from the skill not being a class skill (which, via trait, they can make it so!), that isnt unique to the rogue.
the fact that the investigator is worse than the rogue in combat is both an insult to the investigator and a backhanded compliment to the rogue--because hey, now someone's finally scoring lower than it in the special ed. class of combat, while still getting another class overshadowing it on the skill side, like all the other competitors!
I still see no note on ragesong counting as bardic music for feats--only limitations (such as how many can be maintained at once) are mentioned.
i brought this up with the pre-revision thread--this kills a lot of legacy bard support, like lingering performance, extra performance, spellsong, harmonic spell, discordant voice, etc. etc.
this is a lot of help to lose for no reason, especially for a class so close to the bard anyway.
although really i preferred 2 over 4, since the cities are bigger/more interesting route-wise, and you dont hear LOWLANDS AWEIGH every fourty seconds. I actually laughed when youre tailing the italian ambassador, and he's insulting the english on their architecture and style of dress--which, having played through renaissance italy, i agreed with. still a hugely fun game though.
super stoked about them teasing possible wild west or shogunate era japan titles though. and that watchdogs and assassins creed are in the same world--Abstergo gets an ad from the BLUME security firm saying they should switch to their services.
spoilered for semi-off-topic.
though I've been raring for an AC-esque slayer since i saw the class, so i'm mostly pleased with this.
Why go Monk? :P Warpriest/Brawler. They both use Fighter as a base class but that just means you can't cross into Fighter.
warpreist is fighter, brawler is fighter. fighter can't multiclass with fighter. at what point does either of them stop being a fighter for them to multiclass?
already been said previously, BRs have full CL, unlike the paladin and ranger--specifically to help their rather wimpy spells, since they lack the synergistic options of the paladin (swift action spells) and ranger (good long-term utility and buffs) lists.
so yes, you end up with the odd (but helpful) CL4 when you first get to start casting.