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AndIMustMask's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 2,280 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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@kestrel287: yes--the fighter is having one of the precious few Nice Things they've unintentionally gotten taken away, while the wizard still has many BS things he can do outside of the many outright-gamebreaking combos he gets.

-if ruled that no native casting = 0CL, he'd be stuck to 0-level spells unless he started eating orange prism ioun stones for breakfast or something (using typeless CL bonus items like the OPIS (slotting it in a wayfinder to bring it to +0-+3 total effect depending on roll), a +4CL prayer bead, and a moon circlet (-2-+2 depending on moon phase)), letting him cast a 9th level spell with the archmage ability ONLY IF he rolled a 4 on the wayfinder stone AND it's the full moon that night, and only for ten minutes/day, which is some pretty specific circumstances and makes for a very unique character since their magic is so nebulous that even they can't predict what will happen.

-even if the effect's specifics trumped the usual spell level limitation, he'd have to stick to no-saves or other spells that don't scale with CL, since even if he gets to cast it, he'd still have no base CL for it to go off of for the effect scaling (getting the absolute minimum every time).

-whether it works with SLA CL is a whole different bag of worms; lightbringer's odd wording might allow it to work, but most others wouldn't i think?). the SLA=casting is pretty specific on what spell level you're effectively a caster of (daylight SLA makes you able to cast 3rd(?)-level arcane spells, but not 2nd or 1st level for pre-reqs like feats and PrCs.

i'm FAQing the OP in hopes that some clearer ruling will be made, but i'm kinda hoping they get to keep this option--preferably in a somewhat balanced manner (like option 1 or 2), obviously.


as does mithral, as most folks know.


AZGrowler wrote:

The biggest problem is that you have to burn through your Eldritch Pool to be able to use Spell Combat until 8th level. You have to burn 1 point for two rounds of focus. This is ridiculous, because no other Magus archetype has to use their Arcane Pool to be able to use one of the defining features of the class.

I understand the desire to use parts of one of the new hybrid classes, but it cripples the archetype until it reaches 8th level.

sounds a lot like myrmidarch and that shield magus archetype. paizo loves making magus ATs that are useless until X level, apparently.


note that per bard 'you are your own ally' rulings, order of the dragon is a great deal more useful since your 'spend action -> allies do X' abilities also affect you (and your horse, etc).


dragon disciple was already confirmed to advance the bloodrager draconic bloodline as of the advanced class origins book. there's a little sidebar about it and everything.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
By the way, this is purely a pedantic thread. I realize that. No serious complaints here. It's just fun now and again to point out to the people who call everything and their dog a "trap option" what a real trap option looks like. ;D

no, monkey lunge, elephant stomp, and the rumormonger rogue talent are real traps, since they make you worse at their intended function or are impossible to actually use. this thread is about a spell that does it's intended effect and one person finds it boring.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

i know that the 3.5 dark sun setting had the Mul (half-dwarves), which was neat.

also, i know one of the devs went on a big talky thing on why there arent more half-races (particularly among the core races), his answer was effectively "tolkein".


fiends is more for the 'i can enhance my armor, weapon, or shield as needed' at level 9, which grants some great defensive flexibility.

also you would be very surprised how common evil outsiders (demons, devils, daemons, qlippoth, pretty much anything that can father/mother a tiefling, and many, many more--they're quite common as villains or minions of villains) are even when not playing wrath of the righteous, and anchoring aura/party smite is super helpful against them.

that said, if it's not your thing it's not your thing--your character and all that.

@traits: blooded?


alternatively, couldnt you play a sohei for immediate prereq-ignoring mounted skirmisher+spirited charge and have 'pounce' from level 2?

tack on nature soul+animal ally for mount that sohei has multiple ways to power up?

- - - - -

couldn't you also take pummeling style legit at X level and dip fighter brawler (or was it unarmed fighter) for a free pummeling charge as well?


magical knack is great for paladins--it makes their casting much more effective as soon as they get it.

the hero's defiance spell will be your best friend.

honestly: oathbound(vengeance+oath against fiends) with the glory of old trait and steel soul feat is my go-to dwarfadin. the oaths give you loads of things to do with LoH besides healing which is great (and incentivises the extra LoH feat). easily slots in with your healing focus to let you be flexible in combat rather than a simple party HP battery.


okay, decanter of endless water aside.

@malaketh: the feats (at least) only lose their benefit for that day if you don't do them. i'm not sure if the PrCs include a similar clause, but if not then i sure hope you picked a feasible deity!

you'll find pathfinder is rife with needlessly restrictive/arbitrary things.


a thing to note: the obedience feats were designed for you to get SOMETIMES, or whenever the appropriate circumstances rolled around--you can't exactly carry a waterfall around to meditate under, for example.


that they assassinated crane wing because of something largely unrelated to it (it was fairly balanced at it's intended level, MoMS just bypassed that), and because PFS cannot into creative encounter design, is something i still see as staggeringly dumb on paizo's part.

but that's neither here nor there.


@tels: ah, now i feel like an idiot. thanks for clearing that up though, i was seriously worried.


also, sacred fist only trades the level 3, 6, 9, 12, and 18 bonus feats, leaving the level 15 one untouched and free to use.


i'll believe that when i see it.


not sure if mentioned elsewhere in the thread, but (as of my copy of the pdf):

the warpriest class gains the channel energy ability, but makes absolutely no mention of it's base amount or any advancement. no mention of counting as a cleric for it, nothing listed in the class chart, nothing. as it stands, they appear to have a channel energy ability that they can't actually use.

and:

Warpriest Channel Energy Class Feature wrote:

[...] A good warpriest (or one who worships a good deity)

channels positive energy and can choose to heal living
creatures or to deal damage to undead creatures. An evil
cleric (or one who worships an evil deity) channels negative
energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures
or heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric who worships a
neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity)
channels positive energy if he chose to spontaneously cast
cure spells or negative energy if he chose to spontaneously
cast inflict spells. [...]

emphasis mine: 'cleric' should be replaced with 'warpriest'


human racial FCB for warpriest lets you grab up to 3 bonus combat feats, which lets you grab greater weapon focus/specialization/greater specialization, if nothing else (technically a human/half elf-or-orc/scion of humanity aasimar are all able to as well).


just gonna note:

-people need to pair dragon style or another method to use pummeling charge through things like enemy/ally-occupied squares, rough terrain, etc.

-AMF price issue is fixed in the late game if you buy a clockwork prosthesis instead--cheaper in the long run (basically the same overall price as a firearm), can be fully upgraded/enchanted to effective +10 like any other weapon, and grants decent bonuses in it's own right. let's leave the fact that being an effective unarmed fighter in pathfinder literally costs and arm and/or leg for another discussion though.

-monks still remain MAD and unable to trade flurry (since it is their ONLY class attack bonus, and full bab-2 is far more playable than 3/4 bab).

what's worse is that you can be straight up better than a vanilla monk as a MoMS monk2/sacred fist warpriest 18 with pummeling style/charge via monk and dragon style bought legit; since you count as a fighter for bab/feat requirements in warpriest, you can get feats that monks drool over such as greater weapon focus/specialization, penetrating strike, and so on.


Anzyr wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.

the alternative is too silly to consider.

Your call. As I said, I'm already making a concession even using a build, since I don't think they prove much in the first place.

er, you mean the wizard build you've repeatedly alluded to and never deigned to post, then refused to use it outright when it would get posted?

that one? yeah, that's the one i'm saying doesn't exist.

you have made no concession, there is no build. there has been no build this entire thread, which is what a great deal of the thread has been pointing out to you.

Oh there's a build. It's just not the one you want to see. But I think it will make the point eloquently enough, unless you believe Wizards are weaker than Sorcerers.

see, you keep saying that, but im not seeing any builds.

as for the second part, i'm looking for *A* wizard build from you. or more specifically this roflstomp build you've been preaching about literally all thread.

You can always switch the Sorcerer levels for Wizard levels if it'll make you feel better.

sorcerers are kiddie-pool wizards and we both know it, but i suppose with all those swashbuckler levels deflecting is all you seem to be good at.

i'm going to assume you're a liar from now on, and continue doing so until you provide proof of any claims you make in the future.

i'm disappointed really.

Marroar Gellantara wrote:

You'll see my build on post #6 in this thread.

I found a way to counter it later on in the thread with a wizard showing all the stats that would be in play.

I got so tired of waiting on you, that I began to argue myself. I even found a method to make an air-tight geas command while you refused to show even that much.

I found a copy of your wizard build

oh?


Anzyr wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.

the alternative is too silly to consider.

Your call. As I said, I'm already making a concession even using a build, since I don't think they prove much in the first place.

er, you mean the wizard build you've repeatedly alluded to and never deigned to post, then refused to use it outright when it would get posted?

that one? yeah, that's the one i'm saying doesn't exist.

you have made no concession, there is no build. there has been no build this entire thread, which is what a great deal of the thread has been pointing out to you.

Oh there's a build. It's just not the one you want to see. But I think it will make the point eloquently enough, unless you believe Wizards are weaker than Sorcerers.

see, you keep saying that, but im not seeing any builds.

as for the second part, i'm looking for *A* wizard build from you. or more specifically this roflstomp build you've been preaching about literally all thread.


Anzyr wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.

the alternative is too silly to consider.

Your call. As I said, I'm already making a concession even using a build, since I don't think they prove much in the first place.

er, you mean the wizard build you've repeatedly alluded to and never deigned to post, then refused to use it outright when it would get posted?

that one? yeah, that's the one i'm saying doesn't exist.

you have made no concession, there is no build. there has been no build this entire thread, which is what a great deal of the thread has been pointing out to you.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

just a shot in the dark here, but i'm going to say that either anzyr doesn't actually have one and has been expertly trolling us for twenty pages.

the alternative is too silly to consider.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adept_Woodwright wrote:
Also, to be clear to AndIMustMask, there was never any assumption that the caster is Mythic. Just that there was level parity between the two opponents. The question was how many Tiers were needed to bridge the gap, if the gap could be bridged at all.

gotcha.

Anzyr wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Nah, you can take it as a Wizard loss if the Sorcerer loses. I was going to enter a Wizard, but not if I have to show the build.
why? what's so horrible about posting it?
Mostly because the tactics it uses while very effective can be countered. The Sorcerer meanwhile trades cleverness for raw power which makes knowing it's tactics hard to counter.

that's certainly a step down from what you've been saying this whole thread.


Anzyr wrote:
Nah, you can take it as a Wizard loss if the Sorcerer loses. I was going to enter a Wizard, but not if I have to show the build.

why? what's so horrible about posting it?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Anzyr wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

doesnt that miss the entire point of the thread? shroedinger's wizard continues to remain unstatted, and will continue to be brought up forever.

(not to mention the thread itself is for mythic fighter vs mythic WIZARD)

I'll let others handle that.

...after spending an entire thread saying your wizard will smash a fighter.

good lord, this is the lamest attempt to avoid putting up or shutting up i have ever seen. now in the case that you lose (though i still personally lean toward the caster anyway), you can go "oh drat i seem to have lost. alas, had i been using my WIZARD build i would have trounced you! ah, it appears i've been called away, ta!"


doesnt that miss the entire point of the thread? shroedinger's wizard continues to remain unstatted, and will continue to be brought up forever.

(not to mention the thread itself is for mythic fighter vs mythic WIZARD)


andreww wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
I think the benefit of using roll20 is that spectators can be present and I would fully intend to post my character after. I would actually expect Andreww to require build posting after the contest as part of the game rules.
Once I have some contestants I will set up a table. Roll20 creates a log of all chat entries and dice rolls which I am happy to make public. I will also make public any questions asked or rules queries about builds asked in private afterwards. My preference would be for any entrant to disclose their build but that is really up to them.

personally i'd like to see both builds kept secret from each other and posted in full at the time of the event--namely to prevent last-second build edits or suddenly having an extra time stop that day between when the match happens and a build is released.


since time immemorial, magic's status as champion has been proclaimed across the cosmos, but it's actual attendance to any challenges is worryingly low (to the challenger's chagrin). this is to be rectified.
as such, an exemplary fighter and exemplary wizard have been chosen among their peers by the gods to face off and determine if steel can triumph over spell.

Spoiler:
BASIC RULES
-level 20 / mythic 10 for both sides
-20 point-buy
-races: keep it simple stupid--no templates, drow nobles, or other obviously unbalanced races
-880,000g: standard WBL (+25% if you have a crafting feat, an additional +25% if you have 2 or more crafting feats)

PREPTIME
-both players have THAT DAY (from 12:01am until 6pm) to prepare for the battle--any buffs that are 24+ hours in duration are assumed aways on.
-both players recieve ONE ROUND before the fight to buff up or activate items. they must announce the free, swift/immediate, standard, and move actions used in this round.
-leadership/squire/torchbearer/'leadership-clone' feats are banned.
-if using contact other plane/commune/'play-20-questions-with-god' via scroll, spell, or magic item, list the questions asked (none of this 'i'm automatically perfectly prepared' stuff). this applies to both the fighter and wizard.
-if using blood money (via scroll/spell/etc.), list your exact method of obtaining 'infinite money', and why/how you purchase/create any specific items for the encounter (please remember to note crafting times if any).
-spell list for the day must be at least 90% assigned (2 unassigned spells/level at MOST)--you've had a morning/afternoon to prepare, your choices should be already tailored to the enemy by now already--i want to see what spells you have prepped and how MANY of each spell you have prepped.

BATTLE SCENARIO
-the arena is a 300x300x300 area, which is a grassy plain speckled with occaisional shrubbbery and trees, the setting sun hangs low in the arena's cloudless sky.
-both players are only allowed to bring themselves to the fight initially--no cohorts, armies, no minions besides those granted by class features or feats (such as animal ally), summoning spells and similar after the fight begins are fine.
-leaving the arena of your own volition for more than three rounds (even time-stopped rounds) counts as a loss. these rounds do not need to be consecutive.
-players forcibly removed from the arena will be in their new location for three rounds (suffering any native effects of that location) before being automatically placed back in the arena.
-initiative starts when they enter the arena.
-since both players are informed of the battle beforehand there will be no surprise round.
-both players must announce the free, swift/immediate, standard, and move actions of each of their turns. no edits, no take-backs, no retcons.
-the battle will continue until one side is dead, indefinitely incapacitated, or surrenders.

.
(to the wizards: preferably i'd like to see each and every spell you've got via levels and any purchased as scrolls/whatnot to scribe as coming out of WBL, since that is literally how you would obtain them in a proper game; got blood money? you'd better have taken a legend lore scroll out of your WBL or as one of your level-up spells, etc. but that seems a lot of time-investment to ask for a simple pissing contest)

thoughts so far? i feel i'm being a bit too strict here. i'd like some input from whoever's submitting a wizard and whoever's submitting a fighter on any changes they'd like.

note that this isnt limited to just anzyr, btw--anyone can submit a build they think would win in a fight.

.
EDIT: it appears andreww has taken the reins of the competition while i was typing this.


uh, anzyr--people HAVE been challenging you. like, constantly.

you started off the thread saying 'oh but i dont need to stat it out', and as of page five i've seen at least two fighters and one set of 'rules' for a match that were relatively agreed to.

a large majority of what i've seen in this thread has been either people telling you to put your money where your mouth is, or arguing against whatever harebrained exploit you're advocating at the time. it's kinda sad to watch.

now, i personally think the wizard will win hands down, even without this silliness--mostly because spells are hilariously overpowered, and mythic spells even moreso.

i'm going to go back through the thread and find said rules post and return with it, and hopefully at least you personally can put forth a build, everyone can argue between it and a fighter build for a few hundred posts, and then everyone can go home because this is just ridiculous.


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okay, so anzyr and co. arguing about semantics aside; wizard build yet?


i know you can take a feat (celestial obediance to someone or other) that if you die you have an infinite gentle repose--and a free contact other plane when you get resurrected.

would that affect clones?


crusader cleric opens some good weapon options (hello katana) and paves the way for guided hand/crusader's flurry.

inquisitor's got lots of wis-centric options like stern gaze and such.

some monk archetypes like sensei and zen archer make you more reliant on wis as well.


so wait, i've seen at least two fighter builds, has anyone dropped a proper wizard build here yet?

as of page 5 i've only seen:
player A: "okay, my fighter is kitted out and ready to go!"

player B: "[scan's player A's sheet] you lack X, i exploit that with Y spell."

player A: "that's well and good, but im not seeing a real wizard here to actually cast it at me, just an ethereal voice."


Ms. Pleiades wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
Yes, a fighter will probably stomp a bard in a strait up fight.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, oh god, please, *falls over*, please stop, I can't take it, it's too much! *rolls around with sides aching and tears flowing freely*

Ahhh-hoooooo...wow, geeze, man that never gets old. The fun bit is, Bards are amazing. A very strong and versatile class that can paddle badguys with the best of the martials and as others have noted only get stronger in team-oriented scenarios.

An illusion/enchantment focused bard would probably mop the floor with a fighter, or rather convince the fighter that the mop is a sword and that the bard is the floor.

sorry, im fairly squarely with the 'bad will save class vs will save-centric spell class is gonna have a really bad time' crowd here.


ranger is a great tutorial class, barbarian (and the slightly more complicated bloodrager) is a class for when you feel like hitting like a train, and slayer is the ranger once you've completed the tutorial.

sorcerer and oracle are great intro casters since you have fewer spells to remember/do bookkeeping for, while having a neat set of thematic options as well.

bard can contribute in lots of ways between skills/spells/performances (and most people forget that they can fight well too!).


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see if you cant get ahold of a voidstick. ignore the create undead bit, it's a huge waste of money and effort--you want it for the on-demand instant desecrate effect for anytime you wanna animate dead. tack on the 'reliquary' property (+250g) to your weapon of choice and you have a permanent fixture/altar for the desecrate effect, granting you maximum bonuses.

if you're a wizard, look up the necromancer's athame. spontaeneously replacing unused spells with necromancy spells could prove useful.

follow brewer's guide to undeath for some good rules to live by and for streamlining your whole necromancy shtick.

also worth noting: undead minionmancer setups are also largely divorced from necromancy school itself, oddly enough--you only really require animate dead and desecrate to build a sizeable and powerful army, so there's little reason to actually specialize in necromancy other than for fun or thematic stuff, since plain CL bonuses are surprisingly common.

.
however if you really wanna push animate dead's CL through the roof for huge bucket/hd limits:

Spoiler:
spell focus (necro)/greater spell focus (necro), varisian tattoo (necro), bloatmage initiate (necro), deific obedience (urgathoa), spell specialization (animate dead) and spell perfection (animate dead--requires three metamagic feats!) combine for a total bonus of +16 CL before:
-traits like signature spell and gifted adept (+1 CL each, both of which are compatible, iirc)
-items like the bead of karma (+4CL), moon circlet (-2-+2 depending on moon phase), and orange prism ioun stone (+1, random between 0-+3 if slotted in a wayfinder)
-the (greater) death knell (aura) spell(s).
-class abilities like the juju oracle's spirit vessel revelation, or the cruouromancer wizard's blood command ability (dhampir wizards also get an FCB to boost necromancy in general by up to +5 CL)
but that's a LOT of investment, even though most of that applies to ANY necromancy spell (which is filled with save-or-die and save-or-suck spells, so the DC increases definitely won't be wasted). getting all of them is some serious overkill, but picking some ideas from among them might be helpful for you.


daring champ cavalier works alright for them, and swash lets them be dex-focused at level 1.

they've got great sorcerer and natural attack build options as well, and they make alright gunslingers too.

really, anything that streamlines them to capitalize on their strengths and avoid their weaknesses is pretty solid.


off the top of my head:
-scarred witch doctor (maybe with some urban barbarian sprinkled in)
-investigators are almost entirely reliant on intelligence
-clerics and monk can get pretty SAD for wisdom depending on archetype
-oracles, paladins, and bards can get hilariously SAD for charisma.

for oracles, personally my vote for saddest is lore>nature=lunar, since lore has a defensive AND a skill-based conversion to help streamline things, despite the lack of CMD coverage on sidestep secret (it does allow him to double-dip cha to reflex though).


the exalted PRC advances other classes as well as itself, which might be neat to scale up monk. i know there's a deity who's 3rd boon is wis bonus to bow attacks (so as a zen archer you can double-dip!)

or scale up sorcerer (if 'advancing/gaining all class features' includes spellcasting as well)


do note that the dawnflower dervish is a rather spectacular example of a melee bard--what's that? i can get DOUBLED effectiveness on my performances when i use some of them on only myself, and keep several regular performances as well? and free dex-to-damage as a bonus feat at level 1? while keeping versatile performance for great skill coverage with pageant of the peacock (though the loss of bardic knowledge hurts a little)? yes please.

and you can accelerate the growth rate of inspire courage if you're an aasimar (maxing at ~12th level for a +8 to attack/damage/misc., which can be increased by the courageous enchant and such), on a chassis that runs almost entirely off of dex/cha.

a single level dip in nature/lunar/lore oracle for more cha-SADness lets you grab the heavenly radiance (wake of light) feat for the 2nd-level divine SLA and then divine protection feat for cha-to-saves without the pesky alignment constraints of paladin, on top of the usual sidestep secret/natures whispers/moon-whatever if your cha is higher than your dex (and feat access for more revelations if it strikes your fancy).

example:

Spoiler:
aasimar (base*) (lore/legalistic) oracle 1 / dawnflower dervish bard 19
(bard 1/ oracle 1/ bard +18)
* - scion of humanity and deathless spirit alt. racial features taken.

stats: cha(+2r) > dex > con(min. 14) > wis(+2r) > int > str(min. 10)

traits: community-minded / intense artist (+1 act and dance) or savant (+2 act)

curse: legalistic
2 - sickened if you break your word--even if unintentionally (24hrs or until you meet your obligation); 1/day, +4 morale to a check made towards/to uphold a promise
9 - +3 competence to diplomacy/intimidate/sense motive when speaking to someone alone
19 - make an additional save against mind-affecting effects (1/minute after effect)

mysteries:
2 - sidestep secret

versatile performances:
3 - dance (acrobatics, fly) or act (bluff, disguise)
7 - dance (acrobatics, fly) or act (bluff, disguise)
11 - oratory (diplomacy, sense motive)
15 - percussion (handle animal, intimidate)
19 - [anything you want, all available bases covered]

feats:
1 - weapon finesse, *dervish dance*
3 - heavenly radiance (wake of light)
5 - divine protection, *pageant of the peacock (trade 2nd-level spell)*
7 - spellsong
9 - ??? (lunge?)
11 - dimensional agility (stop investing in FCB now)
13 - dimensional assault (this is when you hit +8 IC)
15 - dimensional dervish
17 - ???
19 - ???

.
BAB: 0|0|1/1/1 / 0/1/1/1/0 / 1/1/1/0/1 /1/1/0/1/1
inspire courage growth: 1.5(+2)/1.5 (oracle level)/3/4.5/6(+4) / 7.5/9/10.5/12(+6)/13.5 / 15/16*/17*(+8)
* - remember: dont use FCBs for these levels, you'll pass the limit in the same amount and 'waste' the points. put them towards HP or another performance if you want.

with a +4 (or higher) courageous weapon, increase all morale bonuses by +2

(yes I realize you aren't looking for another bard build, but worth mentioning)

edit: also Fruian Thistlefoot: you forgot the grappler's mask.


you're getting three feats at level 1 fighter, so i assume you're human--but isnt surprise follow-through a half orc/orc only feat?


@OP: well, there's The Chosen. he's got loads of souls, but they're a bit dark.


off the top of my head:

either a sword saint samurai or a daring champion cavalier (with order of the cockatrice and EWP for katanas). dex route isnt particularly amazing beyond slightly higher AC, and you can wield a buckler anyway.

.
for sword saints: my usual trick for using iaijutsu strikes somewhat reliably early on is the step up/following step feats and having multiple katanas. a similar trick might be a 2-level dip in barbarian for the 'no escape' rage power if rage and early class abilities tickle your fancy enough.

ANYWAY, your first turn you approach (move action), challenge (swift action), and spend your standard action as you wish (maybe use it for doublemove to reach them? activate a magic item? shrug). following step helps keep you on the opponent if they try to reposition during their turn.

on your next turn, drop your current katana (if you have one out) and then iaijutsu strike (full round) your target with one of your sheathed katanas. once you hit level 10 you can just approach-challenge-iaijutsu all in one turn, saving you loads of effort.

for either: other feats you could tack on might be various fear ones (power attack+cornugon smash, dazzling display+shatter defenses, violent display, dreadful carnage, hurtful, etc.) to debuff enemies in a surprisingly large radius, or really anything you want; as a martial with a sword your only "required" feat is power attack and maybe the weapon focus/specialization feats since you have access to them (as a sword saint, anyway--you could grab penetrating strike and it's greater variant as well iirc)


the average HP thing is (i'm fairly sure) pulled straight from the GM section's monster guidelines sheet--which also conveniently lists things like average AC by monster type, saves by monster type, and more.

i'm not sure going full strawman is helping you, dude. the numbers used are SPECIFICALLY THERE to tell if your players are ahead of or under the curve of the game, so that you (the GM) can adjust the challenge accordingly.

.
EDIT: christ that's a tangent, sorry.

Spoiler:
your players all hyper-optimized and have their tactics polished to a mirror shine? throw some bigger guns at them, change up the terrain, increase the scale of the game (once you've a reputation for being the biggest badass in the area, people seek you out to follow you or challenge you) or shift into a more macro-focused one (the players need to manage/defend all the land and titles they're granted from saving so many kingdoms or somesuch).

one player in particular outstripping the rest of the party? doublecheck their character and the rules you're running (i see so many folks shout 'rogue OP please nerf' when they're not running the tumble or stealth rules correctly, for example), and if they're legit then ask them to dial it back a bit--but only if the players aren't enjoying themselves. if everyone's having fun despite the imbalance, then let it be.

.

and for the player: trying to remove a threat as quickly as possible keeps it from killing you, your friends/allies, and the nearby countryside (which hint: is a good thing). working towards making that more efficient is a good thing (in moderation). power attack is a single feat that allows that, if you're willing to make the accuracy trade.

you've also gotta remember that while this is calculated as one-on-one, you should certainly take teammates into account (presumably with them picking up any slack) for both the player AND the monster (since alone they just get action economy'd to death no matter how suboptimal the party is).

a player going whole hog on damage just makes you less well-rounded everywhere else, giving your GM more tools to challenge you elseways (like encounters where 'demons over there kill they ass' isnt the solution, or social/skill stuff, or enemies that are particularly resistant against that particular brand of pointy object, or encounters with hampering terrain or hard-to-reach enemies, etc. etc.)


because 7th is a ways into the game, and gettign things early is nice?


chaoseffect wrote:
HowFortuitous wrote:
Guideline 2 and guideline 5 contradict each other. One states to never use intelligent undead and the other gives advice for juju zombies which can't be made without create undead and are intelligent.

I think the unsaid caveat to guideline 2 is something like: "Unless you know they will be friendly to you, e.g. dead PCs or highly trusted NPC followers." If you go that route then direct magical control is not necessary to get them to do what you want in general, even if you aren't actually declaring their actions.

Juju zombie is pretty much a straight upgrade mechanically so if you have morally ambiguous allies, PC or NPC, sometimes it can be more beneficial to use Create Undead on them than to just Raise them.

this guy gets it, though yes, i should've worded it more clearly.


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HowFortuitous - see guideline 2.

some basic guidelines for minionmancy:

Spoiler:

1: always have desecrate up when animating undead. ALWAYS. the bonuses are huge and it's only 50g for a scroll if you cant cast it natively, or 500g (?) for a darkstick to have infinite desecrate on demand (ignore the second effect, it's a horrific waste of a useful item and lots of effort), so there is almost no reason not to have it whenever possible. the ONLY time this doesnt apply is if you're a wordcaster; the undeath wordspell doesn't have any interaction with desecrate, so you can't use it's numerous advantages in this one case.

2: NEVER, EVER use undead that are intelligent or that create spawn: the former because the instant they're free (and they get checks to resist every day and every time you give them an order they dont like, eventually they're gonna succeed) they're going to try and kill you, and the latter because their spawn arent under your control (so they tend to balloon into a huge issue if left unchecked). since the create undead spell's list is filled with creatures with one or both of these things, the spell should be largely removed from your brainspace.

3: streamline your paperwork on your minions' stats. streamline your paperwork on your minions' stats. streamline your paperwork on your minions' stats. it's written that much because it's important. otherwise your DM will hate you and your party will complain about how much time you're taking on your turns checking your numbers.

4: your minions are an investment (in both time and gold), manage them as such. keep an eye on your 'buckets' and on how long you're able to command undead for (whichever the case may be), since overflow can be a pain to clean up and is a waste of onyx/money.

5: bloody skeletons (high STR brutes at or under 10HD--hill giants are great), fast zombies (things with multiple attacks, mounts and carrior platforms), and juju zombies (things with class levels) are templates that should always be in use unless you are forced not to for some reason. keeping your horde up-to-date with more powerful undead is hard work, but worth it if you want them to remain useful into the later game (and dont be afraid to get rid of some weaker ones if a good corpse comes along for you to animate).

6: take note of undead's immunities; use those to your advantage. skeletons immune to cold? you can drop AoE cold spells on your minions and enemies they're fighting without worry. throw cloudkill spells into the crowd and laugh, etc.


some comments on yours: you may wanna consider giving the players some undead-like traits from the pathfinder system's monster manual; elemental resistances (otherwise frigid mountaintops or volcanic caverns would be nigh-impossible to actually play in--extreme temperatures are no joke, seriously), bonuses against poison/disease/mental effects, bonuses to running for distances/holding their breath/etc.

they're the Chosen Undead, they should have at least a FEW advantages over the normal mortals, especially when they come with the high cost of creeping and unavoidable insanity. it also lets you play a bit rougher with them than a normal PC.

also, i'm liking your paid gestalt-like setup with souls, but the class stuff from those AND the playstyle bonuses would make for some darn powerful PCs, which might make your difficulty increases seem less dire.

.
to posit some ideas of my own:
NOTE THAT THIS SORTA DEVOLVED INTO ME MUSING ON STUFF, SO NOT EVERYTHING NEED BE PAYED ATTENTION TO.

Spoiler:
if you wanna go out of your way to make it harder for the players, some optional rules to look up might be 'AC as DR', "locational damage/called shots", and use the crit and fumble decks (though they're a bit too evil in some cases, so you might need to remove a few cards).

actually have players keep track of their gear's HP, and have things that affect them meaningfully (to promote taking greater care of their belongings, or using things more sparingly). they should be wary of wading into a boiling lake in full gear and wearing their pack, even if they aren't taking any HP damage--this isnt a silly argument either, i've had PCs ruin important mcguffins because they were dumb/careless, even after warnings.
for your players' sakes though, do away with the destroyed condition--the broken status should raise enough red flags to put them on the defensive, but you're not trying to actively punish them for having cool stuff that they likely died for (several times).

the above said, keep things tough but fair. have the death traps and environmental hazards, but give the players clues as to them being there, or ways to stand a chance against the huge killboss 4000 if they happen to do X in preparation of the fight (like sieth's crystal). if the players die in the attempt, consider leaving their progress there--maybe the boss is still hurt from the previous fight with them, maybe the levers/switches didnt reset, and so on. this is to give them a feeling of progress despite the setback.

there's systems for things like sanity in pathfinder as well--you could use them as a set for guidelines for hollowing (because hollowing isnt an all-or-nothing thing in the series, it's a gradual process beginning with memory). as the players die more often, maybe throw a complex their way, or a phobia of whatever killed them, or an unquenchable lust for rust monsters, i dunno. sudden lasting issues from dying like this could make them think more carefully about abusing their immortality.


Aratrok wrote:
Never flat footed, otherwise known as Uncanny Dodge, a 2nd level class feature on low tier classes. Very unbalanced. :p

uncanny dodge has a clause to let it get bypassed by a skilled enough opponent, and is not usually a thing you can spend gold to get. a legacy item has no such limits as far as i can remember, and this is on top of the multitude of other abilities you can get for a legacy item alongside that (all for a minor 'fee' that you can tailor for your class to compensate for anyway).

though the combat veteran (veteran of battle? it's a gorum one) religion trait lets you emulate it for the surprise round--which is a sorta backhanded buff to the rogue, since they're free to trade UD away for archetype abilities fairly painlessly now, but i digress.

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