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AndIMustMask's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 2,224 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Albatoonoe wrote:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is Crossbows and Firearms. They are both a bit wonky and could use some loving in this book.

i would love to see some love for those and other subpar weapons (like the whip)--just streamlining the feat investment to not be so crippling would be a godsend.

i'm also with starfox on the feats thing: unchained feats (actually useful feats without a two-to-four-feat tax) would be spectacular for people who actually rely on them for competence (i.e. anyone who cant cast spells to solve all their problems)


something i'm still noticing: hows the accuracy going along for kineticists?

i note that the bonus damage got buffed for overflow, but if you've still gotta sit at the burn cap to not be a monk or rogue, my earlier point of "why are you required to have far less HP (and still invest way more to get there) than everyone else to be functional in combat" still stands.

that is, unless you pay the touch tax via wild talents and ALWAYS infusing it--which between the burn reduction and more wild talents being known doesn't make that TOO painful (but still annoying)--or does the flexible size bonuses help make up for that?


sounds like you're making burn a bit more worthwhile (between the reductions on input and the bonuses on output), and the extra wild talents and changes to elemental form will certainly help folks feel less pigeonholed in their builds.

definitely digging the gather power changes.

all in all, i approve. i'm definitely looking forward to the final version when it's released.


Imbicatus wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
Speaking of playtesting and rogues... wasn't the "no quickdraw alchemical items" change a result of a rogue playtest? Or was that just propaganda?

No, that was a nerf because The Gaming Den's Frank told Jason in Paizo about Alchemy throwing rogues are great.

I mean, think, touch ac sneak attacks!

So Jason made sure to nerf quick draw of them and sneak attack of them. Then greases application of it, etc.

Yes, Frank was rude during the beginning, but the math was on Frank's side.

Huh. They nerfed it, but added it back with the Underground Chemist.

i still have absolutely no clue how that AT isnt a waste of ink, or why people think it isnt.


Imbicatus wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
and to the paizo devs can go "oh hey there's TWELVE THOUSAND POSTS in one particular thread saying a class needs help--maybe we should get off our asses and finally address that."
That's what Unchained is for.

unchained isnt PFS-compatible so it'll never be touched again, and will only address the rogue's issues if paizo doesn't miss the point entirely and make the New Rogue even worse by some quirk of the rules (which i wouldn't be surprised at).

that and i find it distasteful that people have to pay money for what should be in the core rules anyway.

Where is it listed that Unchained isn't going to be PFS legal?

in the unchained topic itself last i saw. lemme see if i cant dig it up.

edit: searching the thread, i can find no dev input saying it's not going to have any impact on PFS, though several people express concerns of the various "optional rules" spoken of. there is this post that is partially related (info on unchained, questions on how it might affect PFS), but it seems more focused on the classes themselves,not the optional rules or subsystems introduced in unchained, so i can't say (i'll have to pore over it once i get some time).

so i shall rescind that bit for now, and refrain from saying it in the future until it's confirmed one side or another.


Imbicatus wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
and to the paizo devs can go "oh hey there's TWELVE THOUSAND POSTS in one particular thread saying a class needs help--maybe we should get off our asses and finally address that."
That's what Unchained is for.

[EDIT]if it's handled anything like wordcasting[EDIT] it'll never be touched again, and will only address the rogue's issues if paizo doesn't miss the point entirely and make the New Rogue even worse by some quirk of the rules (which i wouldn't be surprised at).

that and i find it distasteful that people have to pay money for what should be in the core rules anyway.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
The Human Diversion wrote:
Undone wrote:

This line is the best example of why rogues are terrible right now.

Quote:
Fort +9, Ref +19, Will +7; +2 vs. fear
And that's with a pretty decent save item!

And a trait. And being a Halfling.

You're better off dumping Cha or Int than Wis. Feats like Iron Will can help... But really... They won't make much of a difference at this point. There is an item that gives the character Heroism for 30 rounds a day, that really helps... I don't remember it's name though. :/

also i know i said i was leaving, but it's been like 100+ posts since the OP already said 'thanks guys, thread done', and i was wondering just what you all are still doing here.
OPs are not the lords and masters of the threads they start.

true, but this has gone from the OPs topic (why all the rogue hate--which was explained as not quite the case fairly early on) to The Usual Rogue Thread, which is technically off-topic.

while i wouldn't wish that much work on a mod, it'd be great if someone/thing could automatically consolidate all the 'rogue threads' into a single one (same with the monk). both so there isnt a new one every week, and to the paizo devs can go "oh hey there's TWELVE THOUSAND POSTS in one particular thread saying a class needs help--maybe we should get off our asses and finally address that."


Marroar Gellantara wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Mainly because I don't believe that if you are reliant on flanking that you are viable.

My main problem with the rogue is that they don't have a strength. You have to build to cover your lack luster offense, saves, ac, and utility. What I like about feint builds is that they synergise offense and utility investment. If you are very careful, you can end up with a character that is almost OK, provided she can steal enough to be significantly over WBL.

if we're posting builds, here's a few of mine:

'Iconic' rogue
synopsis: sneaky, dex focused, can flank with himself (eventually). tried to hit as many of the headcanon rogue bases as possible. still suffers from a bad fort and only half-decent will save though.

Spoiler:
Focused Study Human swashbuckler Rogue 17 / Horizon Walker 3
(rog 6 / HW 3 / rog +11)
*FCB spent on 2 rogue talents and 5 HP
*scimitar proficiency gained from swashbuckler

stats
str 10, dex 17 (7+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 13 (3), cha 14 (5)

traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

rogue talents:
2 - Combat Trick (Dervish Dance)
4 - Combat Trick (Shadow Strike)
6 - Minor Magic (Detect Magic), FCB: Weapon Training (scimitar)
11 - Fast Stealth
13* - Feat (Dimensional Savant)
15* - Opportunist, FCB: Improved Evasion
17* - Skill Mastery (acrobatics, disable device, [face skill of choice], perception, sense motive, stealth)
19* - ???
* - available to take advanced talents

feats:
1 - Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (stealth)
3 - Endurance
5 - Steadfast Personality
7 - Hellcat Stealth
8 - Skill Focus (UMD)
9 - Dimensional Agility
11 - Dimensional Assault
13 - Dimensional Dervish
15 - Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 1)
16 - Skill Focus (perception)
17 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 9)
19 - Dampen Presence

- - - - -

Sneaky stabby knife guy
synopsis: knife-focused rogue who starts the encounter with a thrown dagger and carries on as normal. underhanded+knife master is pretty mean, but only in the surprise round. unfortunately requires agile enchant for dex-to-damage.

Spoiler:
focused study human (knife master/bandit) rogue 20

stats
str 10, dex 16 (5+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 14 (5), cha 14 (5)

traits - trap finder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

talents
2 - weapon training (dagger)
4 - minor magic (detect magic)
6 - underhanded, fast stealth
8 - ???
10 - ???
12 - ???, ???
14 - ???
16 - ???
18 - ???, ???
20 - ???

feats
1 - weapon finesse, skill focus (stealth)
3 - steadfast personality
5 - arcane strike
7 - hellcat stealth
8 - skill focus (sleight of hand)
9 - lunge
11 - ???
13 - ???
15 - ???
16 - skill focus (UMD)
17 - ???
19 - ???
20 - ???

- - - - -

BAD TOUCH ROGUE
synopsis: using the elf racial FCB and the major magic talent (chill touch) to bypass the usual accuracy issues of the class.

Spoiler:
half-elf rogue (eldritch raider/bandit) 17 / horizon walker 3
(ROG 6/HW 3/ROG 11)
* - dual-minded alt. racial taken

str 16 (5+2), dex 14 (5), con 14 (5), int 13 (3), wis 12 (2), cha 10

traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

talents:
4 - major magic (chill touch 10/day *FCB*)
6 - minor eldritch magic (blur 2/day)
11 - major eldritch magic (twilight knife 2/day)
13* - feat (dimensional savant)
15* - opportunist
17* - skill mastery (stealth, acrobatics, disable device, perception, bluff, sleight of hand)
19* - improved evasion

feats:
1 - racial heritage (gillmen)
3 - extra rogue talent: minor magic (prestidigitation 12/day)
5 - endurance
7 - arcane strike
9 - dimensional agility
11 - dimensional assault
13 - dimensional dervish
15 - quicken spell-like ability (chill touch)
17 - quicken spell-like ability (blur)
19 - quicken spell-like ability (twilight knife)

FCB - minor magic 9 / major magic 8
+X heartseeking keen menacing courageous kukri,
+5 mithral buckler
+6 str/dex belt and wis headband
+5 cloak of resistance (get it as big as you can as fast as you can)
boots of heroism are a must
clear spindle+wayfinder ASAP

twilight knife (despite being only 2/day) is a fantastic spell, since it flanks with you automatically unless it is impossible to do so, and deals up to 5d6 sneak attack damage by itself.


Shisumo wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
while 1, 3, and 6 MIGHT be on the table in unchained, the others are but broken dreams.
...not to put too fine a point on it, but you know this how, exactly?

I don't, I'm just working from past experience. they've already said they're taking a step back/away from the established rules to go some new and hopefully not terrible directions with classes/combat/etc. (rogues/monks, general martial options, etc.), but the things like affecting the overall depth and scale of martials vs casters in the world at large would require a pretty extensive rewrite of a great deal of the system.

they only have so many pages to work with in unchained, and if our wonderful little friend the wordcasting system is any indication, this book and any systems introduced (no matter how in need of clarification/editting after the fact) will likely be a standalone that will never ever be touched again. namely because it doesnt play nice with PFS (which the misguided death of crane wing has shown is a top priority for paizo).

for example on the stealth/precision wishlist item: i'm going to hazard a guess and say paizo'll forget some minor thing that still makes the rogue/sneak attack useless in the dark or against minor concealment, and never get around to fixing it (which would completely miss the entire point of trying to make it more accessible).

I'd certainly love to be proven wrong though.


Lemmy wrote:
The Human Diversion wrote:
Undone wrote:

This line is the best example of why rogues are terrible right now.

Quote:
Fort +9, Ref +19, Will +7; +2 vs. fear
And that's with a pretty decent save item!

And a trait. And being a Halfling.

You're better off dumping Cha or Int than Wis. Feats like Iron Will can help... But really... They won't make much of a difference at this point. There is an item that gives the character Heroism for 30 rounds a day, that really helps... I don't remember it's name though. :/

boots of the battle herald. they are FANTASTIC.

also i know i said i was leaving, but it's been like 100+ posts since the OP already said 'thanks guys, thread done', and i was wondering just what you all are still doing here.


not far as ive found--you've gotta hit at least 17 caster level (before items/feats) for 9th level casting, and only for the wizard and cleric.

so (4+3 esoteric / 6+1 esoteric) with +10 to both through MT just barely squeaks by.

on anything with slower casting, you can get 9th on one side and 8th on the other (7+1 esoteric / 3+3 esoteric).


while im not certain how interesting it is, for the group im running (we use a bigass donjon-generated hex worldmap), i only keep track of how long they're going to be on the road (barring interruptions), what the terrain is on their way there (for appropriate encounters, if not necessarily CR-appropriate), and if there's any major holdups or threats in the area, such as horrible weather or major battles.

i keep a short list of curveballs to throw at them (that aren't necessarily fights!) to spice up the world or introduce a small boon or XP bonus.

maybe the forest they camped in was guarded by a dryad who decided to play a trick on them by having the trees move around. maybe they meet a traveler who offers useful advice in exchange for food or other small supplies. maybe they stumble upon a bunch of thieves fighting over a treasure map. maybe they pass a strange rock formation that becomes important later. maybe the fighter wakes to find a boot being carried off by a fairy--cue hilarious Chase encounter through the forest with loot or other bonuses at the end.

there's lots of threads here to snag ideas from as well. they're adventurers; they should have plenty of things to write home about while they're traveling.


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that's a fairly solid list there starfox.

some things i'd love to see:

Spoiler:
better new rogue talents or fixed old ones--1/day limits and/or being worse at skills thanks to them (*cough*rumormonger*cough*) is garbage and should be thrown away as such. if it helps paizo get over their intense fear of decent rogue talents, have them pretend they're designing rage powers!

means to make precision damage (especially sneak attack) more reliable--such as ignoring certain types of concealment (DARKNESS) or a less selfish (play around where MY character is standing or i'll whine about being useless!) or costly (feinting--you didnt need your most accurate attack anyway, exploiting magical cheese--gozmask+obscuring mist, tiny hut, chill touch spam, etc.) method of actually obtaining it.

a more coherent direction for the base monk class--are they supposed to be mobile or not? as the system currently is, mobility and damage (outside of pounce) is mutually exclusive. leading to my next one...

a means of combat mobility available to everyone, not just barbarians/alchemists/summoners--pounce (and it's lesser kin, such as dimensional dervish) is top dog for anything martial. it let's them finally not be kneecapped by the mere thought of moving. this should not be something that only a select few martial classes get. have it use the 'martial pool' or whatever you're going to call it if you're THAT afraid it will break the game (it wont).

some means for a martial to compete on the same scale as a caster in the lategame--when one guy can literally move mountains, birth new worlds, and shake nations with a whim, while the other is doing exactly the same thing that he's been doing from level 1 (move and swing or stand and swing, those are your only choices) with mildly bigger numbers tacked on, there is something incredibly wrong with that picture.
martials should be just as heroic, just as legendary as casters, even if not in the same way. if one can tear a rift in the fabric of dimensions with an errant wave of his hand, the other should be able to cleave a mountain with his sword.

alternate ways to cast spells--MP systems, wordcasting support, ANYTHING else. occult adventures' psychic magic is a step in that direction already with undercasting. expand on such options further.

more means of 'stat to attack/damage' for things like dex, int, wis that arent so needlessly restrictive--it is absolutely silly that you cannot play a dextrous character until level 3-5 AT MINIMUM (1/4 through your career in paizo's favorite houserule game), or someone that uses their wits or experience over brute strength until even later (if at all!)--in a world where your bearded buddy can hurl lightning bolts at dragons.


while 1, 3, and 6 MIGHT be on the table in unchained, the others are but broken dreams.


unfortunately that is 3pp, and therefore BADWRONGF--er, not allowed in a great many games.

that and paizo should start learning from and correcting their mistakes, not just saying "whoops, book's too old, can't change it or the old buyers'll whine!". if unchained doesnt at least step in that direction in the final product (regardless of being a non-canon material for PFS), i'll have that small feeling of satisfaction of having called it before quitting pathfinder entirely.


slashing grace makes them count as an applicable weapon iirc so it seems legit.


Imbicatus wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
-a single cantrip SLA 3/day does not a caster make (and a single level 1 SLA once per day if you invest further still doesn't--even if you use a precious feat to be able to swap them). that's by 3rd level earliest (by spending a feat on ERT (major magic)). if you wanted to be able to change them, you'd need to wait till 5th.

You can actually make a highly effective Half-Elf or Elven rogue based around minor & Major magic. The Elven FCB allows you a LOT of uses of Minor & Major Magic, and if you choose Chill Touch for your SLAs, you have a level per use touch attack sneak attack delivery system. One use should be enough to last a combat, and you can easily have 10 uses per day.

Targeting touch AC fixes most rogue accuracy problems.

hmm. you've got a point about the touch thing (were guns not ranged and feat-intensive i'd consider building a rogue for those).

i wonder how that setup'd work with that gillman racial archetype (half-elf can get it via racial heritage(gillman)) for more SLA levels.


sorry for not browsing the thread to see if this has been asked, but question: im getting some conflicting results on calculating CR for creatures with less than 1 CR--for example, a medium skeleton is CR1/3, so one would assume that you could 'package' three together for a CR1 encounter. this flies in the face of the CR equivalencies chart for multiple monsters, which says that 3 medium skeletons would be an effective CR3&1/3 encounter.

or does each pack of three skeletons count as a single monster for determining CR (so 9 medium skeletons would be a CR4 encounter)?

anyone know?


Kudaku wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

how? where? what abilities?

i mean the reverse is certainly true--many other classes can take rogue class' abilities and talents via archetypes or even TRAITS (RRRGH), but i haven't seen anything even CLOSE to resembling what you're saying. hell, the rogue doesn't even get access to slayer and investigator talents for christ's sakes!

They can pick up bombs and spells via rogue talents. They can make untrained knowledge checks, like a bard. They can gain a ki pool and learn ninja tricks. They can gain a favored terrain, like a ranger. These are all normal rogue talents. with Advanced talents offer things like Hide in Plain Sight and a Familiar as well as a few other things.

Mind you, when you read the actual talent details they are usually underwhelming, typically because they're 1/day or are otherwise limited, but they do have access to some class features not normally associated with rogues.

Examination: underwhelming doesn't even begin to cover it.

Spoiler:
-10 bombs at the extreme endgame MAX does not a useful or helpful class ability make (though you are technically correct). that it runs off of INT which you have little need of, due to lots of inbuilt skill points and a crap-tacular will save requiring wis investment (or cha investment and a feat) just makes it worse.

-a single cantrip SLA 3/day does not a caster make (and a single level 1 SLA once per day if you invest further still doesn't--even if you use a precious feat to be able to swap them). that's by 3rd level earliest (by spending a feat on ERT (major magic)). if you wanted to be able to change them, you'd need to wait till 5th.

-esoteric scholar is 1/day, thus complete garbage. do note that the bard also gets half their level to said untrained knowledge checks as well.

-said ki pool is a gimped version of the one granted BY ITS OWN ARCHETYPE, though the wis-focus is rather helpful despite making you as MAD as a monk. as for ninja tricks you are correct, despite most of them requiring you to be 4th level or higher, and since the ki pool is useless without picking up any talents that use it it is full tax-mode from the start.

-favored terrain is true, yes. you require 3-5 to cover most bases, and get a decent bonus to a few skills (more if you invest yet more talents into things like camouflage and HiPS, which cuts into your talent limit further) and nothing else.

here's my problem:

Spoiler:
all of these (with the exception of favored terrain, that you can oddly get FASTER than a ranger if you really invest) are completely lobotomized compared to those they try to emulate, while other classes are able to get things like a warpriest's blessings, or a brawler's ability to grab feats, or panache, and so on (admittedly via archetypes).
the rogue gets none of these, and has to pay through the nose for anything else he gets with talents. that they're THIS bad is a slap in the face, and that a very large chunk of classes in the game have access to trapfinder (those that cant can take a simple trait to remedy that) and/or sneak attack.

but what of talents? well, at least three off the top of my head get access to those, but really why bother? most rogue talents are garbage anyway, other than ones that let you get feats (which is also painful to see--rogue talents should be worth spending a feat on, not spending talents for a feat). that paizo keeps cranking our more and more crappy ones while the barbarian is sitting on a pile of unique and powerful options (for a martial character, at least) that only keeps getting bigger is the kind of crap that has made me so cynical towards pathfinder of late.

the ninja is somewhat better off with the ability to become invisible (and therefore actually make use of the class' ONLY COMBAT ABILITY with some regularity) and having some better talents without having to pay a tax.

.

honestly, if paizo doesn't do something pretty spectacular with unchained, rogues are just going into the bin for my games and being replaced with slayer or investigator (depending on whether the player is more concerned with combat or skills, respectively).

monks i'm still kinda on the fence about, since they at least have a few decent archetypes, and one that is broken in PFS and will never get addressed as a source of trouble.

Spoiler:
MoMS' early style access is to blame for crane style's shift to utter uselessness, since it's nicely balanced for the intended level. that PFS cannot into creative monster encounters makes it incredibly potent when you get it earlier than intended.

even when unchained is released, i'm going to be waiting a few weeks before even considering buying it, since i dont want to spend money on a book specifically advertised with rogue enhancements only to find that paizo has completely missed the point yet again and produced more wastes of space for an already unfortunate class.

i mean sure paizo, you get a +4 bonus to kicking a prone target, and you've already built yourself for greater trip and vicious stomp, but come on already.


Falkenhayn wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

No pressure. *twitches*

I'd be curious to see an archetype focused heavily on forms, an AoE master that deals in sweeping gouts of fire, giant earthquake zones, or massive waves of ice and water. The current design allows for one or two fairly weak and small Aoe's with half your damage and 1/4 on a save, I'm thinking more like a few d6 short of a fireball, and pick any x adjacent squares, so you can make it your own design. *slaps a Gargantuan sized flaming handprint into the crowd of goblins*

This class feels like it could do crowd control very well, thematically, but the mechanics don't quite seem there for the normal build. Which is good, because I don't want them there for every Kineticist. But the option to specialize that way would be nice.

I'm hoping to see this too, but I hope that AoE options for vanilla Kineticists get a bit of a boost too? As a 9th level Aerokineticist, I found my blast was seriously lacking any real punch due to the low DC, and the halved and then halved again damage when the enemies made their save.

I'm not really expecting to punch holes in mountains or wipe out armies in a single shot, but 14 damage to two enemies, as opposed to the 56 damage I rolled originally just didn't seem at all that impressive. =/

Edit: Forgot to say, I've always assumed a "It'll be done when it's done" attitude with things like this. That said, squeee! 18 more skillpoints! You're the best Mark! =D

(emphasis mine) why shouldnt you? wizards can do it.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
pickin_grinnin wrote:
Having said that, though, I wish Paizo would release some options for players who don't want to be limited to the established classes. Maybe a "generalist" class of some kind that lets you pick from a variety of class options, cafeteria style.
The rogue is surprisingly close to that design goal already, considering that it can nab several different class features from other classes with its rogue talents.

i

how? where? what abilities?

i mean the reverse is certainly true--many other classes can take rogue class' abilities and talents via archetypes or even TRAITS (RRRGH), but i haven't seen anything even CLOSE to resembling what you're saying. hell, the rogue doesn't even get access to slayer and investigator talents for christ's sakes!


what of mythic?


do note that the 'one-handed slashing' and 'finessable one-handed slashing' weapon groupss are both different and the latter is incredibly narrow (unless you dip 1 in swashbuckler since swash finesse specifically opens up more options for slashing grace).

barring a few specific weapons (aldori dueling sword, sawtooth saber, etc), going without the swash dip can leave you in the odd situation of having dex to damage, but not dex to attack.


oh goody, this thread again.

short answer: yes.

long answer: yes, are you touched in the head you're MURDERING a SENTIENT SPECIES' BABY. there is literally no way that is ever going to be a good act, and never a not-evil action unless there is some SERIOUSLY extreme circumstances going down, at which point it becomes a very dark moral grey.

the only time this subject EVER gets foggy is when outsiders are involved, what with being a PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF THAT ALIGNMENT (conveniently, afaik they aren't born in the Normal Method and don't grow up--they just come into being as they are, so demon babies aren't as much of a thing to worry about unless it is specifically a demon that takes the appearance of a baby), and even with them alignment is more of an extreme disposition, not a hard-coded thing (a certain succubus in golarion canon we've all heard about being the prime and only example in recent memory).


Ravingdork wrote:
Wear boots of the battle herald for +4 to all your attacks (and saves and skills) for pretty much the entire adventuring day.

yo WHAT


rungok wrote:

What's this pathfinder unchained I keep hearing about?

All right. I see that I sparked off a thread debate here and I'm mostly sorry for starting that. The only part of me that isn't sorry is the part that likes asking questions directly. I do appreciate all the feedback and after filtering through them I can see that while it's not 'hate' in most cases it seems that they have been rather sub-par comparative to other classes that can do what you wanted a rogue for AND also have their own special flavor bag of chips too. :/

right on the head with that one. well, your question answered, i shall take my leave.

best of luck to everyone.


Atarlost wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Not this question again. First of all it is not "hate". Nobody hates the rogue, monk, or fighter, and many people that complain want them to be better. There are probably 20 threads on the topic. If you do a search you will find the answers, and you will not do any less reading by starting your own thread on it.

raises hand

Actually, I hate the rogue. I think making a skill class makes the game less fun for everyone by forcing other classes to be unskilled. I think the rogue's 3.x trap handling niche encourages the inappropriate use of uninteresting traps to justify the existence of the niche. I think the connotations of the name rogue, particularly its use in D&D and other places as a euphemism for thief encourages antisocial play. I think the stealth skill, particular in combination with the lack of skills for other classes to protect the rogue niche, promotes 1 on 1 gaming while the rest of the table plays Angry Birds. The rogue introduced deliberate spotlight balancing, which I consider toxic and antithetical to a good shared gaming experience, but good for Roxio.

The rogue isn't like the monk or fighter. People are indifferent at worst to them because they don't make the game worse just by existing.

you are a fine exception o the rule then--though i can see where you're coming from; one person's competence shouldn't come at the expense of everyone else's. and with skills not having quite as large an impact on combat as previous, the 'fight smarter, not harder' skill setups aren't really workable anymore (kirin style eats feats and swift actions something fierce, as well as skills, and 'Know Thy Enemy' classes don't really have enough skill points to capitalize on it properly)

the fighter and sorcerer suffer most for it (both being 2+int/level classes with absolutely no int focus).


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DrDeth wrote:


So there's the following issues:

The devs didnt realize how weak many of the talents were.
The devs dont care for diabolical Gygaxian traps and have mostly excluded them from the APs. APs are mostly very combat heavy.

true. though apparently they still havent realized how weak many of the talents are, since they keep cranking more out that are just as bad.

i agree on he traps though--deadlier (or at least more challenging) traps should definitely be a thing.


an alternative to measured response might be a two-handed barbarian with furious finish--it's like measured response but flashier!

provided you can mitigate the rage end/fatigue, of course.


LoneKnave wrote:
Paizo didn't touch the rogue class much (aside from adding/reorganizing talents), but the rogue got shafted heavily on the system level by a multitude of changes to skills and SA mechanics.

off the top of my head: namely that skill synergies arent a thing anymore, several skills were consolidated (reducing the need to have lots of skill points to spread around), and acrobatics to tumble past an enemy to flank is now ludicrously difficult (was DC15?, now it's enemy CMD, which scales almost exponentially).

getting SA to constructs and undead was nice, but losing it in anything involving concealment REALLY hurt (making the old 'ring of blink/etc' tactic completely unusable and making rogues terrified of the dark).

i mean if you wanted a scary rogue back in 3.5, just wear a ring of (was it blink or displacement?), stack sneak attack + iaiutsu focus and a gnomish quickblade and then cackle maniacally while you throw bucketfuls of dice at the DM.


thats a lot of actions to chug that many potions if the party is closing on him.


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main problems with rogue are bad defenses (light armor+bad saves on a melee-centric class), bad accuracy (3/4 BAB+no class booster unlike literally everything not named monk), and paizo absolutely hating rogue talents for some reason.

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that other classes keep beating it up and rifling through its pockets for loose class abilities (and the rogue doesnt get to return the favor), that's a problem with other classes, not the rogue.

that traps are largely useless outside of a few TPK-tier ones (remobing the need for a trapmonkey for the most part) is a problem with the game, not the rogue.

that sneak attack is ridiculously finicky without 'team-selfishness' (you all need to play around what MY character does, or im going to complain about feeling useless!) or incredibly expensive setups (feinting, dimensional savant, nature soul+animal ally+boon companion, tiny hut archery, darkvision is REQUIRED, etc.) isn't quite a problem with the rogue class itself, but more of just how easy it is to shut down precision damage--such as say, being in a dark alley, ironically.

that sneak attack is their only combat option and they are utterly reliant on it to keep up with their peers IS a rogue problem though.

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with the advent of the slayer (what combat rogue should be) and investigator (what skill rogue should be) classes, it's largely superfluous at this point, but again, game problem not rogue problem.

the rogue isn't hated by anyone (except perhaps by the paizo devs), it's pitied. the wasted potential and adamant dev response to never fix it is what most folks i see are upset about.


Saldiven wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:


@Saldiven: Your best bet for a divine charisma caster is an oracle. You'll have to do a bit of reflavoring but it would work.
I've actually seriously looked at that option, but none of the curses seem to mesh well with the idea of a ravishingly lovely woman that charms people with her wit and personality. Maybe Deaf would work, but I'd worry about her ability to effectively communicate with people.

haunted and/or legalistic would work great off the top of my head.

haunted is fairly harmless and grants extra spells, and legalistic is basically MADE for manipulators--just watch for/make loopholes in any deals you make.


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barbarians arent illiterate anymore iirc (that's a holdover from 3.5)


the 'takes too long' bit is a main reason why i make sure my players and i have all our math sorted BEFORE the game, to prevent eating time with unnecessary calculations and spell list checking (because people with spells and people with minions are the worst offenders).

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also, not to derail too far afield; for lighter/faster games not tied to PF, i use a rather rules-light frankensteined homebrew system: nWoD-style 'stat-plus-skill-plus-misc' success checks (using d6s that later expand to d8/10/12 based on a player's 'tier') for the little crunch behind the roleplay (a character's mechanical 'sheet' can fit on a 3x5 cue card, which makes bookeeping a breeze).

i've currently got it set up at our table that every player has a 'buddy' who can chip in on descriptions on critical successes/failures to shave down on me and the other players have to do (pretty much the only work i have to do is stat any enemies they might encounter), which is working rather nicely.


pretty sure it's meant for them to be 'way back before they even had a damn language', not 'this place is still backwater'.

and again. gods. magic. cosmic iron-clad meta ruleset--it doesn't matter.

you being condescending doesn't change the rules as written.


pardon the double-post.
to continue: for all you know celanian, toddlers (or your various other examples) might very well be able to read instantly upon learning to speak n golarion. maybe there's something in the air, or the gods (who are also a thing in this setting) are granting them the ability to do so once they reach that age. maybe A Wizard Did It. it matters none.

golarion =/= earth. the fact that their humanoid fleshy varied people are called 'humans' may merely be a coincidence or quirk of linguistics in translation from 'Common' to 'Whatever Earth Language You Happen To Be Reading Right Now'.


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this is a rules-based combat-centric system (and magic happens to be a major thing present). logic has no place here.

logic was bitterly evicted several decades ago and vowed to make the rules pay--sneaking it's way into the dev's dreams and RUINING things like monks, rogues, crossbows, whips, and pretty much anything relating to finesse.

that you seem to be a harbinger of Logic is disturbing, since you are attempting to assert it in a world with beings that regularly ignore the laws of thermodynamics, the square-cube law, and the laws of physics in general. and magic beard-men (and women, they have nice beards too) who play 20 questions with god and then spend all day flying around invisible/unscryable/invulnerable to whatever dangers may somehow manage to find them.


cant you do similar with a half orc via greataxe? also, arent CDGs a fullround action that provokes AoOs? doesnt seem a good idea in combat, and presumably you'd all by tying up/CDGing whoever's left once the battle's over with anyway.

afaik enemies only cower if they cant escape by running away and such, so unless your wizard is boxing you together that's kinda out the window (and also useless against things that can fly)


also eyeburn is painful.


i for one welcome more incentive to play the Good Guy order.


per bard rulings on performances, everyone is their own ally.

that allows both this, and things like a dimensional savant rogue/slayer/etc getting a free attack from opportunist (by flanking with himself via savant)


and the bloodraging (or lesser bloodrage) bonuses arent that horrible either, so it's also less painful.


i can only applaud your dedication (and thoroughness!).


if you're a bloodrager (or take the ACG feat that grants a lesser bloodrage, which specifically counts as having bloodrage for prereqs), blooded arcane strike removes the need for the swift action--it's always on for every attack while bloodraging


well yeah--pounce/spellsunder is stupid-strong. it does deprive your of a great many bloodline abilities, raising the question of "why not just play a barbarian instead?".

crossblooded is plenty powerful in it's own right, but literally nothing in the game compares to pounce for martials.


play a dawnflower dervish bard--you CAN battledance, but AFAIK you can still perform as normal since you have performances that don't work with battledance, (similar situation to the urban barbarian being able to rage as normal or controlled rage).

with lingering performance you can alternate giving your party inspire courage normally, then giving yourself your battledance version (only every other turn, since battledance itself doesnt work with lingering performance--maybe the community-minded trait instead?)

with aasimar's FCB you can really pump the bonuses too.


I was more referring to pummeling charge requiring a charge, and dragon style facilitating that by letting you ignore terrain--any damage bonus is just gravy.


+1 per 3 rogue levels seems a nice balance for a 'stolen' bardic knowledge talent.

Also a note for these types of talents: you might wanna make some of them mutually exclusive--cant get an animal companion or familiar if you took a mount talent, cant get a paladin weapon bond if you chose an arcane pool, etc. To prevent double-dipping class resources in headachy ways.

Heck, one could take a page from the brawler and give them a per-day resource that they can spend to rip off other classes as needed for X amount of time (3.5's chameleon or factotem did something similar if memory serves)


Also, theres a feat for multiweapon warpriest to augment them at he same time.


i gotcha.

the basic shtick is just "(early entry divine) + (5 levels in cruouromancer for the sick animate bonuses) + (mystic theurge doublebuckets)", so a great deal can be pruned out or toned down for ease of understanding.

the version i've posted around is a hyper-optimized one that's not actually recommended for play (it's more of a system stress test/thought exercise/endgame-BBEG-who-can-stock-a-dungeon-by-himself build), and could supply a pruned down version if you'd like.

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