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AndIMustMask's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 2,123 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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ah, cool then.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
Well the class that shall not be named can take a 40 on stealth by level ten, so DC of 30 after feat penalty.

(cant literally every other class do the same with similar investment? and barring goblins fantastically suited racials i'm unsure how you're getting that high)


DrDeth wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

The Nodachi will be be better once your static bonuses become high enough. With a TWW Fighter or Bloodrager, that will be pretty quickly. Nodachi also has brace, giving it a little more utility.

For what it's worth, a Falcata used in two hands will be better than both in later levels.

Except that a Falcata costs a extra feat.

i thought eastern weapons were still exotic (and cost a feat) unless your class specifically grants proficiency in them (such as the samurai)


Insain Dragoon wrote:
So if you had a Necromancer Wizard and an evil Cleric to cast desecrate..... Everything would be awesome?

though since cleric has that and animate dead it raises the question of why the wizard is even there.

honestly though, the UMD DC for a scroll of desecrate isnt that bad--there's also darksticks (i think they're called) on archives of nethys that you stick into the ground and it desecrates the area (you can also make a zombie out of them, but those are worse than simply casting animate dead, and only made one at a time, and you dont have control of the undead to start with, and so on). doesnt even require a UMD check to my knowledge--just stick it into the ground and it does the work for you.


a fun note: antipaladins get both animate dead and desecrate on their spell lists. with magical knack you can bump their caster level up to [character level] -1.

they'll never have the biggest 'bucket', but they've got loads of great features (touch of corruption, channel energy, auras) to help out, and are fearsome combatants in their own right. their spell list is great as well, since it's loaded with swift-action spells and other buff goodies like bloodsworn retribution (i think) and deadly juggernaut.

i'll see if i cant throw an example build together after i've gotten some sleep. though really it's just an antipaladin who uses a trait and two spells on his list with a 'reliquary' (+150g) shield.


that and they get animate dead later than clerics, if memory serves.

not that it matters in most games, since scrolls are a thing, but in some corner cases like a low-magic game where you don't have access to those, not having all your options built-in hurts a bit (not that it isn't fun as all get-out anyway).

cruoromancer makes a great case for the wizard though.


wordy post incoming:

Spoiler:
I see you've still not changed your stance on WoP (which i feel is a shame)--especially when you're saying the system lacks in versatility and power for spells; despite being able to custom-tailor your spells to any damage type and any effect to any save you deem most effective against an enemy, and making blasting both an effective and attractive option for once. all of which kind of seems the opposite of weak and not-versatile.

i mean it's not as reality-snapping as normal casting what with not creating demiplanes and stopping time, but you're still stupid-effective at any role you choose. that, and you've already said you're not trying to focus on silly high-level play (which i agree with. the game is basically rocket tag at that point).

.
brewer made two guides for WoP (one for arcane casters and one for divine), which would be helpful linked in that section ("i may not personally see the point in the system, but here's some guides on it if you're interested"-type deal), instead of just the arcanist section--speaking of the arcanist: the build was more to test out WoP in the first place for me than to recommend it solely for arcanists. arcanist necromancers with standard casting work like a more flexible sorcerer. i also went with draconic for the arcana bonus to ice spells and the scaling natural armor (i find the claws rather meh, since you're a caster--what the heck are you doing in melee?); the primal or orc bloodlines accomplish a similar effect, but i digress.

instead of trying to turn players away from WoP entirely (while you say not to let it deter them, the section is very small and rather negative), maybe just put a disclaimer that the system takes a good deal of mastery to know what you're doing and work properly? otherwise if a player decides to give it a shot without knowing what they're getting into, they're likely to hold up the table as they and their DM figure out how everything works. It's definitely got a steeper learning curve than standard spellcasting, so it's not for beginners, but it does offer respectable power.


isnt there the immortality wizard discovery and the philosopher's stone alchemist discovery to add to the list?

admittedly they come in late, but the alchemist can crank out stones every month.


I think your Words of Power section greatly underestimates them.

you can ramp up a spell's power very quickly by stacking multiple descriptors or spell schools via WoP's combined wordspells--for example if you use a fog cloud+undeath spell, you get your spell focus feat bonuses for both necromancy and conjuration on it if you have them. it makes spell perfection an immensely powerful option, since it doubles all feat-based bonuses applied to the selected spell.

by being able to mix-and-match what spell combos you're using and what saves you want to affect (with smart wordpsell choices you can have debilitating effects hit any save you want) and the above DC-pumping, you are an absolutely TERRIFYING debuffer if you choose to be.

also, standard action summons (or in necromancy's case: standard action component-less animate dead). this really can't be stressed enough.

.
a few build submissions for the guide:

ARCANIST WORDCASTER:

Spoiler:

human arcanist (wordcaster) 20

str 16, dex 20 (5), con 20 (5), int 32 (5+2r), wis 16, cha 24 (5)
+5 int (level), +6 all (belt/headband), +5 int/+4 cha (book/wish)

traits
reactionary / gifted adept (undeath)

reservoir
11/40 (at start of day)

exploits
1 - bloodline development (draconic [white or silver]) or school understanding (necromancy)
3 - [see above]
5 - dimensional slide
7 - spell tinkerer
9 - counterspell
11 - counter drain
13 - metamagic knowledge (persistent spell)
15 - metamixing
17 - greater metamagic knowledge (bouncing spell)
19 - item crafting (craft wondrous item?)

feats
1 - spell focus (necromancy), improved initiative
3 - varisian tattoo (necromancy)
5 - greater spell focus (necromancy)
7 - undead master
9 - bloatmage initiate (necromancy)
11 - dazing spell
13 - elemetal focus (ice)
15 - greater elemental focus (ice)
17 - spell focus (evocation)
19 - greater spell focus (evocation)

spell slots
7 / 7 / 7 / 7 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 5

EFFECT WORD COMBINATIONS
Words One ..... Two ..... Three
Level
0 0 ..... — ..... —
1st 1 ..... — ..... —
2nd 2 ..... 0/0 ..... —
3rd 3 ..... 1/1 or 2/0 ..... 0/0/0
4th 4 ..... 2/2 or 3/1 ..... 1/1/1 or 2/0/0
5th 5 ..... 3/3 or 4/2 ..... 2/2/2 or 3/1/1
6th 6 ..... 4/4 or 5/3 ..... 3/3/3 or 4/2/2
7th 7 ..... 5/5 or 6/4 ..... 4/4/4 or 5/3/3
8th 8 ..... 6/6 or 7/5 ..... 5/5/5 or 6/4/4
9th 9 ..... 7/7 or 8/5 ..... 6/6/6 or 7/5/5

words
0 - all 0-level effect/meta/target words
1 - alignment shield (alignment), burning flash (fire), dash (time), fade (concealing), fog bank (weather), force shield (armor), friendship (command), glide (flight), wrack (pain) | burst (target), line (target) | careful (meta), quiet (meta), simple (meta)
2 - accelerate (time), disappear (concealing), float (flight), frost fingers (ice), enhance form (body), energy resist (body), decelerate (time)
3 - undeath (death), servitor III (summoning), torture (pain), complex order (command), paralyze humanoid (binding), dimension hop (teleportation), lightning blast (electricity), fire blast (fire), wind wall (wall), ice blast (ice), translate (language) | barrier (target)
4 - servitor IV (summoning), ice wall (ice), acid wave (acid), bestial form (change), ice blast (ice), unseen shell (concealing), sound blast (sonic), altered form (change), borrow future (time) | manifestation (meta), mind warp (meta)
5 - servitor V (summoning), stone wall (wall), crush will (command), dimensional jump (teleportation), far casting (language) | irresistible (meta), penetrating (meta)
6 - servitor VI (summoning), negation (dispelling), resist arcana (dispelling)
7 - servitor VII (summoning), dimensional shift (teleportation), caustic cloud (acid)
8 - servitor VIII (summoning), permanent paralysis (binding), thunder strike (electricity), winter's wrath (cold)
9 - Servitor IX (summoning), control time (time), dimensional gate (teleportation)

undeath + [frost cantrip] CL 30 before gear

.

MYSTIC THEURGE - NECROMANCER EDITION (this is mostly for demonstration, though in actual play it handles similarly to a sorcerer until levels 7-16)

Spoiler:
Dhampir (Ru-Shi) separatist cleric (urgathoa or nethys [magic(arcane)/fate inquisition]) 4 / wizard (cruoromancer thassilonian mage (gluttony [+necro, -abju/ench])) 6 / mystic theurge 10
*levels go: clr 1/wiz 5/MT 10/wiz 1/clr 3*

stats (20pb):
str 16 (-2+2r), dex 18 (5-2r), con 20 (5), int 30 (5+2r), wis 26 (7), cha 16
wis/int/int/int/int (level), +6 all (gear), +4 int/wis (book/wish)

traits: signature spell (animate dead) / gifted adept (animate dead)

feats:
1 - spell focus (necromancy)
2 - scribe scroll*, command undead*
3 - varisian tattoo (necromancy, 'touch of fatigue' 3/day)
5 - bloatmage initiate (necromancy, constant medium load)
7 - theurgy
9 - spell specialization (animate dead)
11 - persistent spell
13 - greater spell focus (necromancy)
15 - quicken spell
17 - dazing spell
19 - spell perfection (animate dead)

.
SPELLS: animate dead, command undead, (greater-) death knell (-aura), and desecrate are important, but unneeded after you break the animate dead HD limit (detailed below)

WIZARD
0 (infinite), 1th (7+2/day), 2th (7+2/day), 3th (6+2/day), 4th (6+2/day), 5th (6+2/day), 6th (6+2/day), 7th (4+2/day), 8th (3+2/day), 9th (2+2/day)
CLERIC
0 (infinite), 1th (6+1/day), 2th (6+1/day), 3th (6+1/day), 4th (6+1/day), 5th (6+1/day), 6th (6+1/day), 7th (4+1/day), 8th (3+1/day), 9th (2+1/day)

.
MISC:
favored class (wizard)
esoteric training (35 fame [+3 cleric, +1 wizard])
string of prayer beads ('standard' string without healing/smiting beads, 18,000g)
-->bead of karma: 1/day, +4 CL for 10 minutes (!!!)
moon circlet (CL +1 waxing, +2 full, -1 waning, -2 new)
'reliquary' +5 medium fortification spell storing mithral buckler (acts as permanent alter for desecrate)
Necromancer's Athame (20,000g)

CL 17/17 wizard/cleric
CL (animate dead) 40-43 (wiz/clr) (17 base, +4 focus, +4 spec, +2 trait, +2 tattoo, +2 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1-+2) wayfinder, +4 bead, +2 circlet +1 death knell, +1 arcane beacon, +1 theurgy (cleric-only))
CL 30-33 (control undead) (17 base, +2 focus, +1 tattoo, +1 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1-+2) wayfinder, +4 bead, +2 circlet, +1 death knell, +1 arcane beacon)

.
UNDEAD 'BUCKETS' (not counting wayfinder variance):
animate (wizard) - 205 HD (blood command), 246 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
animate (cleric) - 210 HD (blood command), 252 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
feat - 6 HD
control undead - [one creature], 33 days/cast (refreshed every full moon)

.
ADVICE:
-if you don't want to worship urgathoa for some reason, go with separatist cleric (any deity with the magic domain) for that and the fate inquisition.
-notice that your HD created is more than your bucket limit--animate dead lets you indefinitely keep anything you animate with that one casting--any 'overflow' is taken out of PREVIOUS castings of animate dead, so you can actually surpass your 410HD total animate limit (to a whopping 498 HD barring wayfinder variance) as long as you dont cast any more animate deads from either bucket afterwards.

note that while brwer's guide to undeath shows that undead master isn't usually worth it, since the Undeath wordspell has no interaction with desecrate, the undead master feat is usually your best option for a similar (if lesser) effect on a wordcaster necromancer.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

So the only problem I have with achievement based systems (mythic trials in the playtest, not sure how it changed) is that you create incentive to do the achievement, not actually play the game. Believe me, I've done this in a lot of video games. When you need to kill 100 orcs for orc-bane, you're going to hunt down orcs just to kill them. The story is lost, you worry about kill stealing, it's a terrible place to be. "Don't kill him yet, I still need 2 more knockouts!" "Only if I get to coup de grace him after." "Wait, let me trip him a couple times first. Stand him up real quick." It's also a nightmare to track.

It's better to either story-fluff the challenges (climb the highest mountain and wave the weapon until it's struck by lightning) or allow the players to pick what they want and provide a specific limited challenge to grant that. Orc-bane could be killing an orc chieftain or destroying a warcamp or some other specific, short-term "kill all orcs" thing. Keen could involve killing something with DR 30/crits or something similar (jabberwocky?).

This gives the players more agency to decide what they want their weapon to be and then, when the time is right, unlock the ability they wanted without worrying about whether they tallied the achievement correctly or how close they are. "This weapon has served me well, but I know it can be keener than this. Let us find the mythical beast who can only be damaged by a lucky strike and test my sword's luck against its luck."

i'm not planning on having them as a hard-coded thing--more as guidelines of what might grant them. likewise, i dont plan on revealing these mechanics to the players to avoid such an attitude from them (guys we need to raid another orc camp papa needs his bane enchant). major achievements and plot-related ones (such as killing an up-and-coming orc warchief granting the bane enchant) would bypass the usual guidelines.

while i'm also trying to set the 'usual' enchants for certain classes to be obtained naturally (like the furious enchant being gained when you rage enough with the weapon), you make a good point. I'll have the players make a wishlist of sorts for me to set them up with as they go.


the first build getting DD is mostly for always-on flanking (and thus sneak attack) at/after level 13. before then it's still a decent combatant if you're careful, though you're stuck using the usual methods to get your SA off (such as flanking, flat footed, etc.)

another route for easier SA-ing is by obtaining your own flanking buddy--either from a dip into shadowdancer for the scaling shadow minion, or the (nature soul+animal ally+*optional* boon companion) feats for a full-advancement animal companion (wolf is good for the trip bonus). the latter also lets you take teamwork feats together such as outflank, precise strike, and so on. grab the menacing enchant on your weapon and enjoy!

you could also just go ninja/scout for invisibility at level 2 and greater invisibility at level 10 and avoid the issue altogether (barring enemies that can see through invisibility), and say "screw the haters". the trap finder (people of the sands) and defensive strategist (torag, inner sea gods) traits nets you trapfinding and a pseudo-uncanny dodge, letting you still fill the trapmonkey role.


i'd say dawnflower dervish bard for stupid-good morale bonuses to yourself via battledance and (greater) heroism buff--especially with the courageous enchant--and the steadfast personality feat for cha to will saves.

or oracle (lore/nature/lunar for cha to defenses, grab the divine protection feat for cha to saves) for full casting and auxiliary revelations.

on oracle: if elf or half elf (or anyone with racial heritage (elf)) one could go ancient lorekeeper with the lore mystery, haunted curse, and eldritch heritage (arcane) feats for an incredibly SAD full BAB pseudo-mystic theurge gishy thing.

- - - - -

for BR, preferred bloodlines would be arcane and/or destined.

an example crossblooded version with both might be:
1 - destined (1 - destined strike)
4 - destined (4 - fated bloodrager)
8 - arcane (8 - greater arcane bloodrage)
12 - arcane (4 - arcane bloodrage)
16 - arcane (16 - true arcane bloodrage)
20 - destined (16 - unstoppable (or) 20 - victory or death)


I was planning on using the idea to sidestep the usual boring must-haves (headband/belt of [STATS], amulet of natural armor, ring of protection, cloak of resistance) by having them scale natively, similar to the weapon/armor enhancement scaling as noted in the OP. I'll definitely take a hard look at those heroic distinctions though.

Also, I know this thread is toeing the line between the advice and homebrew boards, which is why i'm trying to keep it to balance suggestions/critiques and enhancement prereq suggestions.

edit: threw together a linear advancement chart for 'item' scaling

Spoiler:

LEVEL:
1 - NONE
2 - NONE
3 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
4 - +1 AC (natural armor)
5 - +2 to one mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus)
6 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
7 - +1 AC (deflection)
8 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus)
9 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
10 - +2 AC (natural armor)
11 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus), increase a previous +2 to a +4
12 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
13 - +2 AC (deflection)
14 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus), increase a previous +2 to a +4
15 - +1 to all saves (resistance bonus)
16 - +2 AC (natural armor)
17 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus), increase a previous +2 to +4 and a previous +4 to +6
18 -
19 - +2 AC (deflection)
20 - +2 to a different mental or physical stat (enhancement bonus), increase a previous +2 to +4 and a previous +4 to +6

.
TOTALS:
+5 all saves
+5 AC (natural armor)
+5 AC (deflection)
+6/6/4/4/2/2 [STATS]

EXAMPLE STAT INCREASES:
MARTIAL
+2 str
-> +2 str/dex
-> +4 str, +2 dex/con
-> +4 str/dex, +2 con/wis
-> +6 str, +4 dex/con, +2 wis/int
-> +6 str/dex, +4 con/wis, +2 int/cha

CASTER
+2 [casting stat (CS)]
-> +2 CS/dex
-> +4 CS, +2 dex/con
-> +4 CS/dex, +2 con/(one of wis or int)
-> +6 CS, +4 dex/con, +2 (two of wis, int, or cha)
-> +6 CS/con, +4 dex/(one of wis, int, or cha), +2 str/(one of wis, int, or cha)

I note two things: (1) that i'm lacking some sort of boon at 18th level, and (2) that due to the nature of WBL, the scaling might be a little too slow to keep up with monsters around their level (particularly the AC ones).

any suggestions?


a few rogue builds of my own (while not TWF users) that seem fairly well-rounded:

'Iconic' Rogue

Spoiler:

Focused Study Human swashbuckler Rogue 17 / Horizon Walker 3
(rog 6 / HW 3 / rog +11)
*FCB spent on 2 rogue talents and 5 HP
*scimitar proficiency gained from swashbuckler

stats
str 10, dex 17 (7+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 13 (3), cha 14 (5)

traits: trapfinder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

rogue talents:
2 - Combat Trick (Dervish Dance)
4 - Minor Magic (Detect Magic)
6 - Combat Trick (Arcane Strike), FCB: Weapon Training (scimitar)
11 - Fast Stealth
13* - Feat (Dimensional Savant)
15* - Opportunist, FCB: Improved Evasion
17* - Skill Mastery (acrobatics, disable device, [face skill], perception, sense motive, stealth)
19* - ???
* - available to take advanced talents

feats:
1 - Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (stealth)
3 - Endurance
5 - Steadfast Personality
7 - Hellcat Stealth
8 - Skill Focus (UMD)
9 - Dimensional Agility
11 - Dimensional Assault
13 - Dimensional Dervish
15 - Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 1)
16 - Skill Focus (perception)
17 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 9)
19 - Dampen Presence

flanks with himself (admittedly at 13th level, but better late than never), hides in plain sight (in light/dark as well as vs blindsight/sense), dex-focused (dex-to-damage online at level 2), and has a decent will save. retains trapfinding and a pseudo-uncanny dodge via traits.

- - - - -

Sneaky McStab

Spoiler:
focused study human (knife master/bandit) rogue 20

stats
str 10, dex 16 (5+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 14 (5), cha 14 (5)

traits - trap finder / defensive strategist (torag) or veteran of battle (gorum)

talents
2 - weapon training (dagger)
4 - minor magic (detect magic)
6 - underhanded, fast stealth
8 - ???
10 - ???
12 - ???, ???
14 - ???
16 - ???
18 - ???, ???
20 - ???

feats
1 - weapon finesse, skill focus (stealth)
3 - steadfast personality
5 - arcane strike
7 - hellcat stealth
8 - skill focus (sleight of hand)
9 - lunge
11 - ???
13 - ???
15 - ???
16 - skill focus (UMD)
17 - ???
19 - ???
20 - ???

similar to the above but without the dip into HW. use a spring-loaded wrist sheath and the bandit AT's ability to get fairly easy max damage d8 sneak attacks off in the surprise round (moreso if our GM allows move+standard to allow full attacks)--how you go from there is your business. unfortunately requires an agile-enchanted dagger to get dex-to-damage.
Also, while a kukri would certainly do better i'm unsure how to get proficiency in it without spending a feat or dipping (though a dip in say, swashbuckler, would open up a slew of options). the trait for starknife proficiency (instead of the defensive strategist trait) could work well also.

.
MISC. ADVICE:
-the 'heartseeker' weapon enchantment is very helpful for bypassing concealment against living targets.
-never, EVER take an attack penalty of any kind for any reason, period. your attack bonus is a precious and non-refundable commodity that you are already hard-pressed to increase.


TL;DR: I need some 'achievements' of sorts to add enchantments to gear as my players go along.

Some context (feel free to skip):

Spoiler:
I'm running a home game set in a sort of nordic/gaelic mashup grimbright universe, and trying to put a bit more meaning into the player's gear than just another +X that will be sold or abandoned for better gear as soon as something better pops up.

To that end, I'm going with the Lord of the Rings-esque approach of giving equipment enchantments and increases as it accomplishes various Deeds and gains a reputation for itself through them. A sword that killed 100 orcs would likely gain the Bane [orc] enchantment, and might get things like rolls to intimidate orcs when it's drawn as it kills more. a shield that has withstood gouts of dragonfire might get the [element]-resistant enchant, and so on.

basically as the item's legend builds, it grows in power according to what it or it's wielder has accomplished.

I realize this sorta turns standard gear progression on it's head, So I'm planning to have the enhancement bonus naturally scale as they level, with auxiliary effects being added through the player's deeds.

a few enchantment pre-req ideas to get things started:
WEAPON

Spoiler:

Bane: slay 50-100 enemies of [subtype]
Keen: 5-10 confirmed natural-20 critical-hits
Heartseeker: delivered 5 coup de graces in combat
Furious: 200-300 rage rounds used while wielding the weapon
Phase-locking: Slay 3-5 opponents who had previously escaped combat against you with teleportation
Menacing: slay 100 opponents while flanking (halve this rate for characters with the 'sneak attack' class feature)
Spell Storing: receive 50 buff spells relevant to the weapon itself (abilities such as divine bond, judgment, the magus' arcane pool, and similar do not count towards this)
Distance: successfully land 50 attacks while suffering a ranged penalty of at least 2 range increments (each additional increment beyond this adds +1 towards the rate this is completed)
Ghost Touch: slay 50 incorporeal undead or similar targets

ARMOR/SHIELD

Spoiler:

Deathless: successfully save against 10 negative levels
Spell Storing: receive 50 buff spells relevant to the armor itself (see above)
Rallying: 25 allies succeed saves vs. fear due to your assistance (such as bardic performance, aura of courage, etc.)
Creeping and/or Shadow: successfully evade detection by enemies 10-20 times (more for greater variants of the enchants)
Fortification: Survive 25/50/100 critical hits and/or sneak attacks
Spell Resistance: successfully save against 200/300/500 harmful spell effects.
Impervious: 25-50 successful saves vs effects that would damage or destroy the equipment specifically (such as sunder combat maneuvers, rust monster's ability, and so on)
Ghost Touch: successfully avoid or save against 50 attacks from incorporeal undead or similar targets

.
Beyond plot achievements (for killing notable foes and the like) which i'll be controlling personally, suggestions for other enchantments tied to things like those listed above would be appreciated.

advice or comments on the ones listed here (like increasing or reducing the requirements) would also be very helpful.


a wolf with undersized mount maybe? your ride runs in and attack+trips them, you get your spirited charge off with the prone bonus?


top of my head would be paladin/bard/cleric/barbarian/exploiter wizard with their usual best-in-show builds

who's dealing with traps? anyone. LITERALLY ANYONE (provided they're allowed to take a trait). with enough perception and DD investment you can tell the rogue to go jump off a bridge.

or you can just have an unseen servant drag a log around and set everything off safely away from the party.


greater trip and/or vicious stomp is also great with free bull runs/trip attempts (foehammer with ki throw, greater trip/stomp and the shield feats can combat maneuver/AoO indefinitely until he runs out of AoOs)

relevant thread:
paizo.com/threads/rzs2pw7w?Potentially-powerful-combat-maneuver-combo


If you search my profile/threads/posts for "the dwarfiest dwarf" theres a google doc that might have some helpful ideas for you. (cant post it from my phone for some reason)


so a month later i must apologize for necroing this topic; however, I think it's better to bring this back (which arguing aside does have several builds and useful advice and gear for the aspiring rogue) than to start Yet Another Rogue Thread to devolve into the usual fustercluck that surrounds the class--which i have been known to contribute to.

I'm attempting to make a decent dex-rogue focusing around knife master+bandit with a dagger in a spring-loaded wrist sheath and the underhanded talent.

the main tenets i'm trying to stick to are:
-no multiclassing (though if a 1-level dip is REALLY good i might be convinced--i've considered diviner wizard 1 or swashbuckler 1 but haven't settled on them)
-absolutely nothing that imposes any kind of attack penalty whatsoever. the rogue simply cannot afford to lose any accuracy with so low a BAB and no class-boosters to aid it.

so far i've got:

Spoiler:
focused study human (knife master/bandit) rogue 20

stats
str 10, dex 16 (5+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 10, cha 16 (10)

traits - river rat / veteran of battle (gorum)

talents
2 - underhanded
4 - minor magic (light)
6 - surprise attack, fast stealth
8 - ???
10 - ???
12 - ???, ???
14 - ???
16 - ???
18 - ???, ???
20 - ???

feats
1 - weapon finesse, skill focus (stealth)
3 - steadfast personality
5 - arcane strike
7 - hellcat stealth
8 - skill focus (UMD)
9 - lunge
11 - ???
13 - ???
15 - ???
16 - skill focus (perception)
17 - ???
19 - ???
20 - ???

at 5th level in the surprise round he can draw his dagger (free with trait), close distance (move), activate arcane strike (swift), and attempt to stab the flat-footed opponent for maximum SA damage (underhanded+surprise attack). with an agile dagger that'd come to ~32 damage(1d4+3dex+1trait+2AS+24SA) on their first turn.

the problem is what to do after the surprise round, and finding some way to bypass concealment (the heartseeker weapon enchant helps, but between that and agile his wallet will be hurting). at 7th he can use the light MM to abuse hellcat stealth's HiPS as well, but leaving stealth only gives you a single SA...


vicious stomp and greater trip were specifically noted to work together.


that guide appears to think you can grab the 'Feat' advanced talent before 10th level (the Shanker build takes it at 6th).


if you're going specifically for kenshin, off the top of my head i'd say an order of the blue rose sword saint samurai (or daring champion cavalier) with the blade of mercy trait.

if you're just going for dex-centric-lightly-armored-combatant-with-katana, i'd say daring champion cavalier (order of the sword/dragon/cockatrice/etc. all work wonderfully) or swashbuckler if you want mundane, or kensai magus if you want magical.

or slayer. slayer's always good.

also, kenshin was freakishly strong (as was his teacher), yo. he broke the weapons and bones of his enemies with the best of them and shuffling him off to dex-only camp because he's not huge is unfair.


for rogue on TWF:

-feat investment (with several taxes such as shadow strike you're already hurting)

-creates dependency on DEX, which requires yet more feat investment to make use of unless you plan to be MAD as all get-out (requiring str/dex/con/wis to function is the same stat-boat as the monk, hilariously)

-imposes an attack penalty that the rogue has no way to counteract, unlike literally every class not named 'monk'.

-3/4 BAB: this, paired with the above puts you squarely into "cant see s#@* captain" territory on accuracy

-MUST be able to sneak attack or falls flat entirely--in a dark alley? nope. enemy not denied their dex? not happening mister. enemy has uncanny dodge? good luck with that. let's just not talk about enemies immune to precision damage, shall we?

all in all: bad idea.

.
for rogue in general:

-mediocre defenses as a frontline combatant means you're very likely to die--or taken out of the fight entirely at minimum--from anything that forces a fort or will save (i.e. anything post-6th level, be it poisons, diseases, domination effects, various save-or-lose/save-or-die spells and SLAs, and so on)

-said defenses paired with the above combat problems would make it quite difficult to contribute meaningfully in combat that takes MAYBE five rounds at most.

this isn't touching on the problems plaguing rogue talents, since they're not pertinent to TWF stuff.


we didn't get anything for rogues with any of panache/deeds, studied combat/strike, favored target, or brawler feat-grabbing--all which would have been very welcome.


not sure how that's all that threatening actually--by the time level 5 spells roll around i'd be surprised if the fighter didnt have at or close to AC25 before dex/dodge bonuses.

seems like he could force through it in a single round with only 5 damage or so, unless you stack it very densely in a narrow passage or something.

of course it does tie him up quite nicely while you rain spells on him and/or the rest of the party


Sniper Slayer archetype issue:

Quote:

Deadly Range (Ex)

At 2nd level, a sniper increases the range at which he can apply his sneak attack damage by 10 feet. Whenever the sniper is able to select a new slayer talent, he can instead choose to increase this range by an additional 5 feet.

This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 2nd level.

emphasis mine. did you perhaps mean 15 feet? otherwise why take the talent-replacement option when you can take the deadly range slayer talent that adds 10 feet (which can be taken multiple times)?


muhc like many things are like dimension door but dont count for some reason (lookin at you shadowdancer)


the David wrote:

1 level rogue, thug archtype for the frightening ability.

2 levels cavalier, order of the cockatrice for the braggart ability.
2 levels barbarian for the intimidating glare rage power
Skill focus (intimidate)
Intimidating prowes if your strength is high enough. (It probably is with rage.)
Bully trait to raise your intimidate a bit more.
As many ranks in intimidate as possible.

There are probably more things you can add, but this is what I got for a level 5 oneshot playing a human. A half-orc has a +2 bonus on Intimidate, and there is a trait that would give you a +4 bonus to disguise as a human*, so if you're not dead set on dhampir, she could still appear as a creepy girl. I don't know if all of this is allowed in Pathfinder Society though.

*Technically, Half-orcs count as humans and orcs so they shouldn't get the penalty on disguise checks for being a different race, I think.

dont forget the unnatural presence trait, it lets you intimidate beasts and vermin


Akin DT wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
EWP (fauchard or nodachi)
Nodachi is martial. if you don't care about reach, you can pick up something else at that level instead.

ah, i thought eastern weapons required EWP unless you were in an eastern campaign or playing classes that specifically get them.


a note on accessing spell-things with action-efficiency:
due to size equivalence, a caster can store up to 60 wands (arrow-sized), 18 rods or scroll cases (javelin-sized), and 6 staves (bow-sized) in an efficient quiver, which is only 1800g.

these are all in reach for yourself, a familiar, or an unseen servant to grab and pass to you (or in the familiar's case, use it itself).

usually 'drawing' an arrow from a quiver is a free action, but i'm unsure how that works with wands in a quiver.


Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Now now, monks can spend a Ki point and jump real high. I don't know exactly how high, but you definitely want to be about 5 ft higher than that.

Unless you want to get grappled in mid air.

At 9th level, they can easily reach 14-15 feet, and grapple you. At 20th, they can reach upwards of 30 feet, and grapple you.

Edit: That's '14-15 feet from the bottom of their soles to the ground,' so they could still hit you 20 feet in the air.

oh, how cute! a wizard can be hovering at around 760 feet in the air with a dimension door, or anywhere within 100 miles with teleport (both by level nine, conveniently), as a standard action.

at 20th: 1200 feet with DD, (still within 100 miles with TP), anywhere in the world with greater teleport, on another planet entirely with interplanetary teleport, and any other plane of existence with plane shift. likewise all with standard actions.

this is with no investment in conjuration spells (otherwise DD bumps up by another 40ft each CL), and hardly shrodinger's wizard territory, as what wizard doesn't pick up at LEAST DD.

there's a reason scry-and-fry tactics are a thing.


Nicos wrote:
It is small, and someboy probably have mentioned it but slow is listed tiwce for bloodragers. As a 4rd level bloodrager spell and as a 3rd level one.

there are a couple of spells repeated in their spell list. definitely should get another look-over.


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Ipslore the Red wrote:
Duskblade wrote:

Ya know, for all the ladies out there, I'm surprised no one has come up with the inverse of this discussion...

Incubus in a grapple!

Succubi are capable of shifting into any Small or Medium humanoid RAW, with no restriction on their sex. Incubi are a different demon entirely. The succubi can be in whatever form you like.

even pizza!


MoMS is a terrible monk in the long run simply by the loss of flurry and no way to make that difference back up--it's fantastic if you want to dip 2 and never touch monk again though.


doesnt spell perfection require three MM feats? i only count two


Onyxlion wrote:

Any mythic lich should take his phylactery as a legendary object the whole 3 times in order to make it a mostly indestructible artifact.

Edit: Actually my build would be a Dhampir Shaman w/ Improved Familiar (Homunculus) -> Nature spirit for a combined Animal Companion. Use the combined magic item rules and make the homunculus into the phylactery. If going mythic add both improved familiar(mythic) and make your homunculus your legendary item x 3 so the little guy is immune to damage.

This gives you as much HD as you're willing to buy + the AC benefits + improved familiar stuff.

that sounds delicious


high crit range with reach, i know fauchard is 18-20 x2, but im unsure of nodachi's.

largely unneeded (any polearm + buckler will work with phalanx soldier), but the original build of mine that spawned that one had a few critical feats, iirc (bleeding or staggering i think?).


Insain Dragoon wrote:

Incidentally the Tetori is one of the stronger Monk Archetypes.

How does it hold up in campaigns that don't involve medium sized Humanoids though?

@Harrow the optimized Monk will generally include Qinggong, Pummeling Style or Dragon Style, an easy vow, and another archetype such as Flowing, Hungry Ghost, Sohei, Weapon Adept, Zen Archer.

Also high str. Don't dump dex, but it's not a priority compared to Str, Wis, and Con. Also make friends with a Wizard for Mage Armor or carry potions of mage armor. Said Wizard or Cleric can also cast Greater Magic Weapon on your fist and save you the money on a high + amulet of mighty fists. If you still want an amulet of mighty fists I suggest using it to grab enchantments like Keen or the one that D anchors. With Qinggong make sure you replace slow fall for bark skin, it will save you from purchasing an amulet of natural armor.

agreed on many points here. there's a few ATs that people like to hide behind and say "see? the monk isn't terrible in this specific situation!", these include tetori (but only against appropriate-sized humanoids), zen archer, sohei, and underfoot adept (which can actually trip somewhat effectively).

for someone who doesn't want to play a wannabe ranger or cavalier and isn't into wrestling (hey, some folks just wanna punch people sometimes), once you get the money consider CUTTING OFF YOUR FREAKING ARM to get a clockwork prosthetic. great bonuses, fully enchantable like a weapon with any effect that applies to unarmed strikes (putting it leagues above the AoMF and bodywraps). you're basically just enchanting a more expensive firearm in terms of cost, rather than paying double that for a gimped version with the amulet.

and please note that you literally have to pay an arm and/or a leg to be good at unarmed combat as a monk in pathfinder, or at least free from the money-leech attached to your neck.

also, phase-locking is the enchant you're looking for.


there's also that ring of ki mastery (i think is the name) to help tone down ki costs.

iirc the master's secret one may actually be a decent option for rogues if they can either keep their ki costs low or their ki pool topped off, since it lets them grab any ninja ki power (at a rather steep cost).

also, why not ninja? it's not as if the class name forces you to wear the black stage hand garb and crawl on ceilings (though you certainly CAN)


that and they have not one, but TWO class abilities that let them pretend to have full BAB (maneuver training and flurry). at that point why not just give them full BAB and put those abilities to use actually granting a BONUS, rather than breaking even.


Bandw2 wrote:
isn't anti-paladin banned from PFS? due to evil

which is why (at least in the build i posted) there's a note that it works pretty much the same way as a bloodrager (same stat spreads and everything).


It seems I'm posting this everywhere of late, but here you go:

MYSTIC THEURGE - NECROMANCER EDITION (now with 100% more calcium!)

Spoiler:
CE Dhampir (Ru-Shi) separatist cleric (urgathoa or nethys [magic(arcane)/fate inq.]) 4 / wizard (cruoromancer [+necro, -abju/ench])) 6 / mystic theurge 10
*levels go: clr 1/wiz 5/MT 10/wiz 1/clr 3*

stats (20pb):
str 16 (-2+2r), dex 18 (5-2r), con --, int 32 (5+2r), wis 28 (7), cha 22 (5)
wis/int/int/int/int (level), +6 all (gear), +4 int/wis (book/wish) +2 int/wis/cha (lichdom)

traits: signature spell (animate dead) / gifted adept (animate dead)

feats:
1 - spell focus (necromancy)
2 - scribe scroll*, command undead*
3 - varisian tattoo (necromancy, 'touch of fatigue' 3/day)
5 - bloatmage initiate (necromancy, constant medium load)
7 - craft wondrous item
9 - spell specialization (animate dead)
11 - persistent spell
13 - greater spell focus (necromancy)
15 - quicken spell
17 - dazing spell
19 - spell perfection (animate dead)

.
SPELLS: animate dead, command undead, (greater-) death knell (-aura), and desecrate are important, but unneeded after you break the animate dead HD limit (detailed below)

WIZARD
0 (infinite), 1th (7+2/day), 2th (7+2/day), 3th (6+2/day), 4th (6+2/day), 5th (6+2/day), 6th (6+2/day), 7th (4+2/day), 8th (3+2/day), 9th (2+2/day)
CLERIC
0 (infinite), 1th (6+1/day), 2th (6+1/day), 3th (6+1/day), 4th (6+1/day), 5th (6+1/day), 6th (6+1/day), 7th (4+1/day), 8th (3+1/day), 9th (2+1/day)

.
MISC:
??? familiar
favored class (wizard)
esoteric training (35 fame [+3 cleric, +1 wizard])
strand of prayer beads ('standard' without healing/smiting, 18,000g)
\__>bead of karma: 1/day, +4 CL for 10 minutes (!!!)
moon circlet (CL +1 waxing, +2 full, -1 waning, -2 new)
'reliquary' +5 medium fort | spell storing mithral buckler (acts as permanent alter for desecrate)

CL 17/17 wizard/cleric
CL (animate dead) 40-43 (wiz/clr) (17 base, +4 focus, +4 spec, +2 trait, +2 tattoo, +2 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1-+2) wayfinder, +4 bead, +2 circlet +1 death knell, +1 arcane beacon)
CL 30-33 (control undead) (17 base, +2 focus, +1 tattoo, +1 bloatmage, +1 FCB, +1 stone, +(-1-+2) wayfinder, +4 bead, +2 circlet, +1 death knell, +1 arcane beacon)

.
LICHDOM ADDITIONS:
+5 natural armor, +4 channel resistance, undead immunities, darkvision (60ft), rejuvenation, fear aura (DC 26), paralyzing touch (DC 26)

.
UNDEAD BUCKETS (not counting wayfinder variance):
animate (wizard) - 205 HD (blood command), 246 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
animate (cleric) - 205 HD (blood command), 246 HD/cast (commanding infusion + desecrate)
feat - 6 HD
control undead - [one creature], 33 days/cast (refreshed every full moon)

.
ADVICE:
-if you don't want to worship urgathoa for some reason, go with separatist cleric (any deity with the magic domain) for the fate inquisition.
-notice that your HD created is more than your bucket limit--animate dead lets you indefinitely keep anything you animate with that one casting--any 'overflow' is taken out of PREVIOUS castings of animate dead, so you can actually surpass your 410HD total animate limit (to a whopping 498 HD barring wayfinder variance) as long as you don't cast any more animate deads from either bucket afterwards.

currently not mythic, though i'd likely go dual-path archmage+hierophant for sick bonuses.

can you add the venerable age mods to undead?

(also looking for ways to squeeze more out of this)


2SPOOKY antipaladin

Spoiler:
dhampir (svetocher)* antipaladin 17 / phalanx soldier 3
(AP 5 / FGT 3 / AP +12)
* - dayborn alt racial feature taken

starting stats:
str 17, dex 12, con 14, int 10, wis 8, cha 16

endgame stats:
str 32, dex 18, con 20, int 14, wis 14, cha 26
+5 str (level), +6 str/dex/con/wis/cha (belt/headband), +4 int (robe of runes), +4 str/cha (book/wish)

traits: unnatural presence / magical knack (antipaladin)

feats:
1 - EWP (fauchard or nodachi)
3 - Power Attack
5 - Weapon Focus (fauchard or nodachi)
6 - Cornugon Smash*
7 - Dazzling Display, Shatter defenses*
9 - Violent Display
11 - Intimidating Prowess
13 - Dreadful Carnage
15 - Dazing Assault
17 - ??? (up to you)
19 - ??? (up to you)
* - fighter bonus feats

endgame gear:
+5 cruel (1) conductive (2) unholy (2) reliquary (+250g) [polearm of choice]
+5 dueling (1) defending (1) guardian (1) spiked gauntlet
+5 heavy fortification (5) buckler
+5 dastard (1) unrighteous (-) warding (1) mithral fullplate or hellknight plate

free demoralize checks against his target anytime he power attacks, free checks against everyone within 30ft on a kill, and can use dazzling display as an immediate action on a 15-20 crit. wield a +X cruel polearm (with keen via fiendish boon) for maximum effect, and have a spiked gauntlet on his buckler-hand for melee threatening.

endgame intimidate will be sitting around +42 before non-stat items (23 ranks/class skill, +8 cha, +11 str), and will work on pretty much anything not mindless or a paladin.

.
DO NOTE THAT YOU CAN ALSO DO THIS AS A BLOODRAGER (just swap the AP levels for BR ones)

you'd need to adjust the gear accordingly (+X furious courageous cruel [polearm of choice], for example), but it is an otherwise painless transition undead bloodline's abilities give you even more opportunities to strike fear into people. crossblooded undead/arcane (with some finagling) lets you grab the fear undead abilities and the free buffs from arcane when entering a bloodrage. very riastradh-esque motif.


dont forget bloatmage initiate (evocation), and spell perfection and elemental spell to get around immune enemies.


Artanthos wrote:
Memorize a Shield spell.

works nicely with spell storing things or a lesser quicken rod with a glove of storing (as does true strike, coincidentally)


I was about to recommend magus (or bloodrager) as well, however if you DO decide to go with your original route, i would suggest using early-entry to go samurai 1 / sorcerer 1 / eldritch knight 10 / hellknight signifier 8

go with the cavalier order of the staff, and take the magical knack trait to help mitigate the hits to your casting. you might also want to consider the eldritch heritage (orc is nice) feats to get a bloodline that advances with character level rather than sorcerer level (with your sorcerer one being one that you make use of the arcana and 1st level powers of).

possible stat spread might be (assuming 20pb and demon-spawn tiefling):
str 16 (5+2r), dex 14 (5), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 8 (-2r), cha 16 (5+2r)

with gear and levels going primarily towards str and cha.


I'm sure by now we've all realized that Nice Things are usually bugs, rather than features.


(can i at least keep this bit?)

Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:


Like I recently tried to write system and I realized two things: 1) Such an endeaver is lots of work. 2) The high level martials I envisioned made sense as not magic and could compete with casters, but they stopped resembling the PF/D&D martial. They were more like Hercules or Gilgamesh or Goku.

I fail to see the issue there. affecting the world at large at high levels is to be expected of all adventurers, not reserved only for casters.

Slacker2010 wrote:
Issue can be addressed by adding two more skill points per level and give him "Brawlers Cunning", you can call it "Fighter's Cunning"

a second good save (likely reflex?) or if bravery would eventually buff up saves from things other than fear (to grant a pseudo-good will save progression), would do wonders as well.


ki throw and expanded ki throw (with things like vicious stomp and/or greater trip) are neato if very feat-intensive, but only at low levels since lategame stuff generally cant be tripped, unless you're an underfoot adept or something.

disarm might be handy, sunder might not be feasible depending on your weapon choice, grapple doesnt work on things not your size (unless you're a tetori iirc), i'm not sure how the later feint stuff interacts with flurry.

dirty trick might be cool as well.

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