Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Clockwork Librarian

AndIMustMask's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 2,463 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


RSS

1 to 50 of 2,463 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

Runelord Apologist wrote:
I find I'm really fond of combining the Unchained Monk with VMC Magus. Taking Ki Arcana at 7th level effectively upgrades your ki pool from (1/2 level + Wis) to (level + Wis + Int - 1), while your 3rd level ability effectively becomes "spend 1 ki for free enhancements on any weapon for a minute". Ki and arcane pool being interchangeable also means you can eventually pick up rings of arcane/ki mastery, allowing a total of 6 ki to be stored day-to-day while giving you minor tricks like spell turning and pool strike (to use with the otherwise useless spellstrike).

and now you're down half your general feats and now have to juggle FIVE stats on top of equipment/wbl taxes and limitations?

i gotta admit i'm finding it tough to see the bonus here.


@OP: well, you specifically cant sunder natural weapons, and your entire body is a natural weapon... so never/impossible?

you can behead someone with a vorpal weapon, but far as i know rules-wise there is no listed way to remove something's body parts besides that. same with breaking bones--theres a monk archtype that can do it, and i think a feat for very specific situations? otheriwse you cant do that either.

for a game that people claim realism in there isnt a lot to be found it you look and think


@liz: if that was my post you are referring to, i must apologize.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Morzadian wrote:
And so now the Unchained Barbarians Rage is codified with how non-magical martial abilities function.
And that is important...why precisely?

because now they cant go get angry and curl a fireplace poker, or lift a car off of their child while hopped up on that sweet sweet fight-or-flight adrenaline. since you cant do that in real life and that'd be unrealistic in a world with dragons and lightning-hurling beard men!

wait...


Cap. Darling wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Morzadian wrote:

There is nothing unreliable about Sap Master, a Rogue makes a successful attack it works.

I agree, the core Rogue is a lot weaker than his peers, particularly the spell-casters, although it shouldn't validate overpowered feats.

For example, if there was a feat that doubled the damage of arcane spells if their opponents were caught flat-footed. There would be cry of outrage of how Wizards and Sorcerers are powerful enough and this feat unbalances the game.

This is why Sap Master is unbalanced and is considered munchkin.

I know this is a little late, but I feel it's relevant.

After the first round and first target it's kinda unreliable.

And about the damage. A rogue deals 1d6 per 2 levels. A wizard casts a fireball at 1d6 per level. A blaster wizard can do any element to bypass most resistances. A blaster wizard with a level of dual-blooded sorcerer gets 1d6+2 per level oh hey that's what this sap-master rogue is doing to one target, but the fireball is to everyone in the area. And then the wizard can intensify, empower, and maximize it too. And he can eventually launch one of these off as a quick and a standard.

And this wizard is considered a bad and weak wizard. But a rogue doing it to one target with maybe 2 attacks(he's needing to be in attack range in the surprise round or get a move and standard otherwise he's getting nothing from the surprise round.) and it's non-lethal.

i dont Think that paticular wizard is considered weak any more.:)
Blaster wizards are considered the weakest version of a wizard. Because instead of doing damage I can just kill them with a failed save. Or I can summon a thing to do it for me, or etc... Just because this wizard can do decent damage it still isn't out single target DPSing a decent Full-attacker
blaster wizards are considered, by some, weaker than GOD wizards, not weaker than save or die wizards. I at least consider save or die...

i hear unchained's active casting system makes slinging save or dies more interesting.

i'm going to mostly avoid the sap master discussion: i've got no idea what morzadian's smoking, and i'm not sure if i want any.


ill say that honestly i would be less upset at the lower will save if there was some means to address the MADness of the class--since the monk could afford to invest more in their wis at that point to offset it and boost all their other class stuff (more wis = more ac/ki pool/ability DCs/etc etc).


Puna'chong wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

*Shrug*

Some classes win with the new economy, some classes lose. They're exactly as mobile as any other class, since most of the maneuvers should be worth more than a +0/-5 attack sequence.

But really... to be totally frank? If casters don't get to b!*!! about being less mobile, why does Path of War's stuff? Given that the design premise is more or less "martial casters", anything that hurts casters hurts them. That's natural.

The "Swift boost" issue is something about half of the martial classes suffer. Slayer is the easy target in this regard, but it's far from the only one. There has been a lot of discussion on these. Puna'chong's houserules seem to be the popular approach, and his response is making many of them free...

I'm not terribly familiar with PoW (I skipped that part of 3.5, to be honest, as I was mostly doing MtG tours), but from what I hear they have a lot of swift action stuff like stances or modes or whatever, right? I'd say a good litmus is whether they're better than a Slayer's Studied Target (which, spoiler: free action). If they are, they might need to be an action. If not, and if they aren't something that stack or would get big too quickly with a free action, then free is ok, in my opinion.

If an attack is a standard action in the old AE, ask whether it's better than two attacks at +0/-5. If it is, it should stay two actions. If not, and it isn't something that's stupid multiple times in a round, 1 action is cool. It's easy to limit them to first attack/round too, like TWF and my version of Vital Strike and Spring Attack. But, for instance, an Alchemist bomb is a 2 action ability that can upgrade with a talent. You have to ask yourself if an ability or class has something that will always outdo a normal attack by a barbarian or a ranger or a paladin with little to no investment of time or resources. If it can, then why play the other classes? All martials do is hit; let them be the best at that, or they're pointless.

Edit: Oh,...

faik, the current path of war and upcoming PoW expanded are made for pathfinder.

i've got a pdf for it, and reading it i can only say good things about it.


Puna'chong wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:
Liegence wrote:

This system seems to make Vital Strike OP. Vital Strike triggers on an attack action, which in this system is specifically a 1 act.

Then again, is that really a bad thing?

Vital Strike is in a weird space, it's either awesome or terrible. At 1 act it's very good but at 2 acts it's trash again. I've left it at 1 act for now to see if it causes any problems. Thing is two-weapon fighting is it's competition and TWF is still much better than it in most cases.
I've left it at one action but working only on the first attack each round. Then Improved lets you double the second attack, and Greater the third. But yeah, it's in a weird place precisely because it's designed as a patch on the old system.

this actually seems pretty nice.


Liegence wrote:

This system seems to make Vital Strike OP. Vital Strike triggers on an attack action, which in this system is specifically a 1 act.

Then again, is that really a bad thing?

at 1 action it ends up being the melee equivalent of TWF, with no accuracy penalty, that benefits from 2H damage/powerattack, that only gets scarier the bigger your weapon is (ranging from equivalent to weapon spec+greater to FAR better).

seems at 1 action vital strike would become a must-have that any martial would be silly not to take. now there's some words i never expected to say.

edit: but then again, it and twf ARE really nice options with this system--there's no arguing that. so having an equivalent there to allow folks to stick to a single weapon seems neat.


Arachnofiend wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah, Unchained Monk as a whole is a sidegrade at best to Archetyped Monk.

Which is, in itself, a massive upgrade. That upgrade being that you don't need a bloody PHD in Pathfinder Rules to make a decent Monk. Not everybody is a board-hopping, theory-crafting min-maxer, the vast majority of players just want to play the damn game. And now they can just play a damn Monk without being left behind by everybody but the Rogue.

Archetype abusing Chained Monks being equal to the base Unchained Monk is a good thing. Not having to rifle through a ton of options just to make a Monk that's on par with most of the other base classe is a good thing.

And yes, "Base Unchained Monk = Archetyped Chained Monk" is a massive upgrade. Because Archetyped Chained Monk > Base Chained Monk.

The problem is that the board hopping, min-maxed, theory crafted multi archetyped stacked monk was usually still not that great.

Or an archer. Archer monks are cool.

Exactly; even the very best Monks were merely viable, not optimal, outside of some extreme corner cases like the Sensei and Zen Archer (neither of which you can replicate with the Unchained Monk, mind you). There is still very little reason to select a Monk over a Barbarian or Paladin outside of flavor concerns.

or over a brawler or warpriest if you wanna go for unarmed combat (BY FAR the most iconic 'monk' thing)


Ventnor wrote:
Why does it take a million feats just to fake someone out?

because wizards dont require them.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

There is a rage power to begin raging before Initiative/surprise rounds....

Also I don't get the people who think Unchained was supposed to buff Barbarians. Previously it was a$$ backwards rulings and weird oddball cases that made them the best martial. Now they actually seem to fit into the game more.

Yes. Nerf the martials lest the become too powerful and threaten the landed gentry wizards.
I don't know what Wizards have to do with Paladins, Slayers, Rangers, ect.

well the slayers they can just dominate, making a paladin fall is fantastically easy (i have unfortunately yet to play with a DM who doesnt take a near-fetishistic pride in forcing paladins to fall for som reason), and im still fairly sure between the simulacrum army/wishfactory and the REST of their expansive collection of school abilities and summons/debuffs/SoD/SoS spells the wizard can find SOME way to deal with the ranger.


im not sure how having more flexible options in combat (barring magus SC+SS all day and the poor, poor mounted cavalier) detracts from player choice and freedom.

I mean oh nooooo, mages cant move before/after/between their quickened+normal spells (which affect the field as a whole far greater than the swing (or two) of a sword) anymore, or kite martials to oblivion and back with class abilities+spells+5footsteps, what a staggering design oversight.

truly, their vast magical might is rendered completely meaningless by having to pick what they're doing that turn, instead of simply doing everything at once and laughing at those who try to stop them. and that fighter is FAR too happy with being able to be mobile AND contribute to combat--cant have the peasants getting uppity after all, so somebody should put a stop to that.

(not aimed solely at mr. pitt btw, more anyone who cries 'but what about the casters?' in a system where they stand head and shoulders above everyone, and fight tooth and nail saying that the few martials that can maybe-possibly-perhaps stand up to them are somehow overpowered)


Insain Dragoon wrote:

There is a rage power to begin raging before Initiative/surprise rounds....

Also I don't get the people who think Unchained was supposed to buff Barbarians. Previously it was a$$ backwards rulings and weird oddball cases that made them the best martial. Now they actually seem to fit into the game more.

theres also the cord of stubborn resolve (iirc). great way to rage free if you're ambushed.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Morzadian wrote:

Paizo does not conform to the School of Ivory Tower Design.

1. All their rules from their hardcovers are online and free. They are not asking their customers to buy new books for super-powered options.

2. Paizo intentionally tries to not publish anything more powerful than what exists in older books. Pathfinder Unchained is proof of that, somewhat detrimental to fans of the Monk class.

There are no Timmy cards in Pathfinder, sure the Crossbow archetype is not as powerful as other archetypes or classes for that matter. But it doesn't make it a 'trap' that promotes system mastery.

cynical rant incoming: italicized mine: you're right, they're asking their customers to buy new books to patch holes in their existing subpar/trap options.

myself and a few others were literally only considering the purchase of unchained at all because they advertised that it could address some of the 'concerns' (see: hundreds of threads and tens of thousands of posts backed with mathematical evidence dozens of times over) over the monk and rogue classes.

for the most part i consider that they succeeded with the rogue (ESPECIALLY if using the action economy rework) and failed with the monk--in the sense of addressing it's meta issues like WBL and MAD, and even gave it NEW shortcomings to deal with (how thoughtful!).

i'll hastily add the note to the monk's 'fail' status that it's only a failure right now, since they've laid the groundwork to make it much more flexible to receive support in future books (which i'll have to pay for--noticing a trend yet?) in the form of new unchained-compatible archetypes, feats, and ki powers, but only if they intend to add more support to unchained content. if this book goes the way of wordcasting, this potential will go up in smoke like so many other things.

You're ignoring the point that you italicized. (How exactly do you manage that?) The only reason you would need to buy unchained is to get access to...

my apologies, i was under the impression that the unchained book would be sold/pdf'd, and parts of it (such as unchained classes) WOULD become the standard for PFS, thus requiring their purchase.

as for the terms: i recognize pun-pun (WARNING, might have bad stuff since it's a 4chan affiliated site) - long story short is that it's a level 3 kobold... wizard? he's lots of classes, but that's what it amounts to--anyway, he abuses a spell to make himself count as something else, and then uses that thing's racial ability and another set of spells into a feedback loop leading to infinite stat X. he then uses a splatbook option to make stat X also work as stat Y, then does so with the others.

using his now-infinite stats in every field, he can do literally anything--becoming immortal, abusing spells to access every plane/dimension at once everywhere, slaying each and every god/demigod/pseudodeity (because 3.5 gave deities statblocks) across the multiverse, and generally doing anything he wants to do.


thatcheriliff wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Targus Deadeye of Kyonin wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
reposting form the UC rogue general discussion thread:
AndIMustMask wrote:

So i've been fiddling around with things for the unchained rogue, and here's what I've come up with:** spoiler omitted **

-pretty much always attacks touch after level 6 (helps offset TWF penalties and low bab)
-can inflict 2 debilitations + stat damage (str or dex) on sneak attacks
-has HiPS light+dark+blindsight/sense at levels 7, 11, and 13 respectively, moves full speed during stealth at no penalty, and the stealth-break sneak attacks last all turn instead of a single attack (depending on stealth ranks).
-fairly MAD, but gets both wis and cha to will saves as well as slippery mind.

kinda lowish on accuracy, but after activating chill touch and you get an AC debilitation on them you're all set for the most part.

the build becomes MUCH more flexible with the action economy rework, since he could [move or step+stealth]+[TWF]+[ITWF] for four sneak attacks and loads of debuffs pretty much every round.

- - - - -

...
There's one glaring hole in your build, the Shadowstrike ability of the Shadow Bloodline, requires a standard action to use. You can't do this as part of a full attack action.

i dont remember saying that shadowstrike would actually be USED.

the bloodline/EH feats are literally there to get HiPS for darkness (from the levle 9 bloodline ability). alternatively one could spend the same number of feats and dip 1 in shadowdancer to the same effect, but that slows the build down. using the stealth skill to hide as part of a move action is in the vanilla rules, if memory serves, and having HiPS lets you do so even if observed.

hence, [stealth+move] followed by two attack actions (each being 2 attacks with TWF). though this comment was made talking about the unchained action economy overhaul.

admittedly you'd only be sneak-attacking on the first one (until you get your stealth unlock high

...

if you mean a level-by-level thing, it's not gonna happen--though that build i posted up top has both starter and endgame stats, and the feats/talents/etc are all taken without retraining at all, so one could follow along with it.

only WBL guidelines would be offense = 45-50%, defense = 25-30%, miscellany/consumables = whatever's left. after having heard about it here on the forum's i'd proabably swap out a feat somewhere for twist away, and snag the ferocious action ring to help deal with fort saves.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Morzadian wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Morzadian wrote:
+caster level and feats that ignore meta-magic limitations are just as bad, unbalancing the balance established in the CRB.

The CRB remains one of the most unbalanced RPG books ever published: casters >> everyone else at everything except direct-damage potential.

And Paizo has taken Ivory Tower design to a whole new level, with an abundance of blatant Timmy cards like the Crossbowman fighter acrhetype ("give up class features so that you can be a totally inferior archer!")

Paizo does not conform to the School of Ivory Tower Design.

1. All their rules from their hardcovers are online and free. They are not asking their customers to buy new books for super-powered options.

2. Paizo intentionally tries to not publish anything more powerful than what exists in older books. Pathfinder Unchained is proof of that, somewhat detrimental to fans of the Monk class.

There are no Timmy cards in Pathfinder, sure the Crossbow archetype is not as powerful as other archetypes or classes for that matter. But it doesn't make it a 'trap' that promotes system mastery.

cynical rant incoming:

Spoiler:
italicized mine: you're right, they're asking their customers to buy new books to patch holes in their existing subpar/trap options.

myself and a few others were literally only considering the purchase of unchained at all because they advertised that it could address some of the 'concerns' (see: hundreds of threads and tens of thousands of posts backed with mathematical evidence dozens of times over) over the monk and rogue classes.

for the most part i consider that they succeeded with the rogue (ESPECIALLY if using the action economy rework) and failed with the monk--in the sense of addressing it's meta issues like WBL and MAD, and even gave it NEW shortcomings to deal with (how thoughtful!).

i'll hastily add the note to the monk's 'fail' status that it's only a failure right now, since they've laid the groundwork to make it much more flexible to receive support in future books (which i'll have to pay for--noticing a trend yet?) in the form of new unchained-compatible archetypes, feats, and ki powers, but only if they intend to add more support to unchained content. if this book goes the way of wordcasting, this potential will go up in smoke like so many other things.

.

also, YES i know that vanilla rogue and monk can work with proper teamwork, planning , and optimizing, but requiring a core class (let alone TWO) to require a PHD in system mastery to get them to function is not good.


Targus Deadeye of Kyonin wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
reposting form the UC rogue general discussion thread:
AndIMustMask wrote:

So i've been fiddling around with things for the unchained rogue, and here's what I've come up with:** spoiler omitted **

-pretty much always attacks touch after level 6 (helps offset TWF penalties and low bab)
-can inflict 2 debilitations + stat damage (str or dex) on sneak attacks
-has HiPS light+dark+blindsight/sense at levels 7, 11, and 13 respectively, moves full speed during stealth at no penalty, and the stealth-break sneak attacks last all turn instead of a single attack (depending on stealth ranks).
-fairly MAD, but gets both wis and cha to will saves as well as slippery mind.

kinda lowish on accuracy, but after activating chill touch and you get an AC debilitation on them you're all set for the most part.

the build becomes MUCH more flexible with the action economy rework, since he could [move or step+stealth]+[TWF]+[ITWF] for four sneak attacks and loads of debuffs pretty much every round.

- - - - -

...
There's one glaring hole in your build, the Shadowstrike ability of the Shadow Bloodline, requires a standard action to use. You can't do this as part of a full attack action.

i dont remember saying that shadowstrike would actually be USED.

the bloodline/EH feats are literally there to get HiPS for darkness (from the levle 9 bloodline ability). alternatively one could spend the same number of feats and dip 1 in shadowdancer to the same effect, but that slows the build down. using the stealth skill to hide as part of a move action is in the vanilla rules, if memory serves, and having HiPS lets you do so even if observed.

hence, [stealth+move] followed by two attack actions (each being 2 attacks with TWF). though this comment was made talking about the unchained action economy overhaul.

admittedly you'd only be sneak-attacking on the first one (until you get your stealth unlock high enough), but it'd let you debilitate the enemy to hit them easier with the rest of your attacks (even moreso if you set up chill touch beforehand), while positioning yourself without much fear of retaliation (can't AoO what you cant see, etc.)


sounds good to me. it'd also get some fresh eyes on it for people to suggest stuff.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

okay, so so far we've got a few helpfuls/must-haves for rogues so far:

-twist away (feat) + ring of ferocious action (3000g)
-minor magic: detect magic (talent) + major magic: chill touch (talent)
-clear spindle ioun stone (4000g, 1000g if cracked) + wayfinder (500g)

top helps shore up fort saves, middle makes finding magical traps a cinch and helps accuracy via touch AC targeting, last helps protect against some of the gnarlier will save effects.

.

unrelated to rogue, but speaking of wayfinder combos, unchained barbarians should definitely look at the pale green prism a lot harder, since their post-rage fatigue is a flat minute.


strawman wrote:

but richard, it's built-in attack bonus is the flanking/flat-footed bonus, which it will certainly always be getting, because when has terrain or movement hazards (reach, etc) been a thing! enemy CMD as tumble DC is perfectly manageable *coughtbefore6thlevelcough*, so flanking is super easy to get!

what do you mean other people get that as well? it just incentivizes them to help you get it set up! if you think about it, you're like a bard, passing around the accuracy buffs to teammates with positioning!

or you can take a two-talent tax for minor/major magic for that ice multi-touch spell and just hit touch AC all the time! and you can sneak attack in the dark now--that's like an accuracy increase right there, right?

honestly im not sure what all you roll-players are complaining about, the class is fine.

just having some fun at the rogue's expense, for old time's sake.


Bandw2 wrote:
I had one of my player's vote against trying the new system because he was a caster and felt he would be too vulnerable under the new system. not really sure on the merits of his argument given charge is a thing, but oh well.

oh nooooo


brightshadow360 wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:

i will say that ki hurricane's aoo-proccing ability miiiight make it a useful partner to panther style and it's ilk. the cost is still HORRENDOUS (seriously, who thought having such high-cost powers with such a small pool was a good idea--the magus doesn't have to deal with this b!!%&&%%)

between the hurricane attacks and the panther style retributive strikes you could hit people a LOT of times. of course that means giving up dragon/tiger style since you cant take MoMS with the unchained monk...

You actually can take master of many styles. It's still compatible in terms of abilities replaced...Unless your talking about society play. I wonder why they disallowed ALL of the monk archetypes. MoMS dosn't seem like it would break the new monk considering the fact that the new improved flurry of blows is now much more painful to lose.

iirc, mark specifically stated earlier in thread that UC monk is not allowed to take vanilla archetypes, even if it has the class features to replace for them.


LoneKnave wrote:
Well, you could get quicken SLA for it...

at how late a level again?


i will say that ki hurricane's aoo-proccing ability miiiight make it a useful partner to panther style and it's ilk. the cost is still HORRENDOUS (seriously, who thought having such high-cost powers with such a small pool was a good idea--the magus doesn't have to deal with this b~!@$&!!)

between the hurricane attacks and the panther style retributive strikes you could hit people a LOT of times. of course that means giving up dragon/tiger style since you cant take MoMS with the unchained monk...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Oh! Even better. Other than the sorry state of the swashbuckler the incompatibility of the Skald and the Barbarian was the most frustrating things from the ACG for me, so I'm happy that got fixed.
I am of similar opinion. Unfortunately, this happened. :(

sigh


Arachnofiend wrote:
Spook205 wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Apply the penalty to the Owb too. And then target and destroy the Owb when he doesn't take action to protect it.
Oh I whallop them all the time. Fast healing, DR 5/bludgeoning, and not being destroyed for good go a long way on keeping them operational.
Eh? When an undead is destroyed the first time it is destroyed for good. You can't just keep reviving the same undead.

bloody skeletons, yo.

ah, ninja'd


Arachnofiend wrote:

I'm honestly less concerned about the Monk's DPR as compared to a Fighter than I am the Monk's utility in compared to a Barbarian. The Barbarian can fly unassisted. The Barbarian can punch a friend so hard he stops being a newt. The Barbarian can bust through a wall and say "OH YEAH!", causing everyone in the room to be some variation of shaken, panicked, or stunned*.

The Monk can do none of these things.

*For reference, this is by combining Stunning Irruption with Terrifying Howl.

i'd love to see the barbarian become the metric for a 'balanced' martial.

even post-stamina, the fighter isn't a good example of a well-rounded mundane/martial character.

meanwhile the barbarian has gotten and continues to get love (though the unchained version is a solid nerf, it's still great)


QuidEst wrote:
As opposed to entanglement effects, which are save-or-stuck.

would plane shift be a 'save-or-oh f@%&' ?


Ravingdork wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Mark, how would you treat the Elven FCB for the Rogue considering that Minor Magic is now at will?

seconded.

(my vote is 1/4-1/3 of another at-will cantrip)

because they're CANTRIPS

I imagine they will change it to 1/2 major magic per day.

i'd be comfortable with that as well.


Alan_Beven wrote:

To be clear for me, for those who are saying this new system "cripples classes", what you are saying is that say a fighter can attack 3 times in a round with say power attack, and for example a Paladin must spend one action to activate Smite Evil and hence will only attack twice in that round? So the "crippling" is that you essentially can attack one less time per round when you wish to use some of your other powers? I am far from a rules expert but I have not seen anything that is prevented with these new rules, it seems like some things just no longer happen in a single round as they used to? And hence now are less fun?

I am genuinely interested in these responses as I am considering using this system with my players, but I don't want to make the game less fun for them.

so far it seems that it completely kneecaps the cavalier, lessens diversity in the magus even further (spell combat+spellstrike und nussing else), and classes that have a swift-action 'now i have class bonuses' abilities get tied up.

said class abilities have to meet or pass that missed attack in overall usefulness in order to not have been a waste (since you could have just taken that third attack and contributed more to the fight).

it gives the swashbuckler the extra swift actions it begged for... at the cost of everything else i could do in its turn instead, similar with the warpriest's ability and paladin/inquisitor casting.

'lotsa' natural attack builds are no pretty much dead but 'big hit' natural attack builds are terrifying now (a t-rex can now [bite->grab->swallow] up to three party members in a single round), twf is now far more attractive, a lot of action shift class abilities/feats are now useless (rapid reload is now in a weird place, brawler and investigator abilities for their core features now do nothing, etc), casters are now less mobile, and nobody gets a 4th iterative anymore unless they have haste.

on the upside, new players don't have to juggle the different action types (a MAJOR hangup for my newest group), and you can move -> attack -> move (or) move -> attack x2 (or) attack -> move -> attack etc, all from level 1, which is HUGE for martials (but causes the earlier mentioned dilemma for classes that cost actions to activate their core class features).

have i missed anything guys?

overall it's a mixed bag. a good deal of the current meta either doesnt work or works far less efficiently--while stuff that was previously subpar are now a great choice with the right application.


the loss of the courageous enchant kinda hurts (since it was one of the only classes not named bard that could really use the thing), and there's less knock-on effects all around as pointed out by Taja the Barbarian.

stances seem good, though why would someone take the other accuracy stance over accurate--the latter doesn't impose an AC penalty for the same bonus, and even has another power to boost it for concealment stuff! i'm expecting a feat later that shifts rage stances from a move action to a swift action (even without it you can use a runners shirt to take it as a freebie when combat starts).


Imbicatus wrote:
Mark, how would you treat the Elven FCB for the Rogue considering that Minor Magic is now at will?

seconded.

(my vote is 1/4-1/3 of another at-will cantrip)

because they're CANTRIPS


Epic Meepo wrote:
Lance Manstrong wrote:
There is a pelvic thrust style strike but its limited to attacks with the pelvis and its not available until level 18.
It also costs 4 ki.

and is a 1/day standard action.


Personally:
i'm definitely adding the stamina/featboost mechanic (free for fighters, errbody else needs a feat), variant multiclassing, skill unlocks (free for rogues, errbody else needs a feat), automatic bonus progression (this is almost literally the chart i made earlier for a homegame, feels good), and the new poisons/diseases mechanics.

i'm considering (pending input from my players) changing over to the action economy overhaul (with some minor houseruling), and active spellcasting rules.

also eyeing the alignment shifts/affirmations + alignment feats and wound thresholds systems because they seem pretty cool, but more bookeeping on my and the payers parts has me kinda wary of them.


Kudaku wrote:
Flame Effigy wrote:

So how do Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler fuction with this new system?

How do lots of things in general work that change something from Standard -> Move or Move- > Swift. Do they just do nothing now?

Generally speaking, a standard action takes two actions and a move action takes one. So something that goes from standard -> Move usually goes from 2 actions to 1 action. Swift actions are still one action, so Move --> Swift makes no difference now.

getting swift -> free ones is still great though (rapid reload on gunlsingers is a waste unless they're using alchemical cartridges--hooray build and ammo diversity!)


i'll say most of 1-9 is definitely agreeable (although for the bonus feats thing i'd give the condition that you must meet the bab/skill rank/level prereqs for such feats since full bab is a thing now), but for 10 i'll say that elbow smash is fine.

yes choosing between it and flying kick is a pain, but an extra full-bab attack in a round that you're already flurrying is a lot (even moreso if you go for enforcer+hurtful). that it's nonlethal-only seems fine, since if they hit zero hp from lethal+nonlethal they're unconscious and can be CDG'd anyway (one of the reasons i was yelling at mark about the kineticist's ridiculous playtest costs). yes things are immune to nonlethal, but things are also immune to magic, and sneak attack, etc.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

a lot of wizards' nastiest spells usually require either a party member or a summoned monster to actually finish the target off (the bigger control spells--pits/clouds/rays of prismatic light), which is fine--it promotes SOME sort of co-dependency/teamwork until the wizard gets simulacrums or summon monster down to a standard action.

when it gets to the point that the wizard can come in and go 'aaaand you're dead and youre dead and youre REALLY dead' without any aid or cooperation with the party (while invisible and able to teleport out instantly if things somehow get bad) or even effort on his part--he just lists off what spells he's using and on whom and marks the spells cast off on his sheet. it falls to the monsters to either roll well or keel over--that it becomes an issue for me (because this is a team game and everyone should have a chance to contribute).

thankfully most of that is solved by asking 'hey, could dial it back a bit?' to the wizard player who's a reasonable guy and swapping to the Active Casting alternate rule.


(dotting for interest, might drop some builds/advice in a bit)


Tels wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Money Advantage where?

nowhere, since he still has to shell out dosh to cover his armor disparity until his WIS gets high enough to count (still needs it if he wants armor enchants even then), and freeing up the neck slot for the amulet of natural armor helps his money a bit and makes him not need to pay the class ability tax for barkskin.

nice quality of life upgrade.

Remember though, the Monk never gets disarmed for the king.

#unarmedOP

which he is paying for by not being able to wear armor/shield/medium load+ and lots of feats/abilities/items to make it competitive with simply using a weapon.


ITWF has a bab requirement of +6, not sure he can take it at 1 without retraining at a later level.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Money Advantage where?

nowhere, since he still has to shell out dosh to cover his armor disparity until his WIS gets high enough to count (still needs it if he wants armor enchants even then), and freeing up the neck slot for the amulet of natural armor helps his money a bit and makes him not need to pay the class ability tax for barkskin.

nice quality of life upgrade.


SAMAS wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
edit: I would like to say that no class in the game is more "anime" than a Sorcerer. You get "special powers" that grow and progress with you. You make special secret hand signs while shouting magical words to unleash powerful juts-I mean "spells." You fly and rend reality and logic easily and without remorse.
Sounds a bit like Super-Sentai... >.>
No, that's Synthesist Summoner.

RIDER KICK!


Puna'chong wrote:
So then don't use it.

yes, that's what he said he's doing.


Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

Because it allowed move, cast, teleport. It was a rare and unique combination that made the teleportation subschool interesting. It really allows a wizard to think tactically on the battlefield without have to resort to flying or invisibility. That cannot be accomplished under this action economy; you need to choose between full moving or, for most of your career, a short form of teleport. Still useful, but not nearly as interesting.

I like swift actions; they have an interesting flavor and allow for combinations of unique activities. I fear that notion is so baked into the system that such a radical change cannot accommodate the myriad rules made based upon this assumption.

Find a way to give martials pounce abilities; leave the action economy system alone.

couldnt you do that with this system as well? i thought the teleport was part of the casting, and casting a spell is only 2 actions, so couldn't you [move][cast] to teleport anyway?


Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
I know there's not a whole lot of caster sympathy out there, but this pretty much ruins the teleportation subschool. I don't like it generally, a lot of classes are build on swift and standard actions; it's a nerf to all classes that have powers based on that. Luckily, it's optional, no need to utilize it.

wait how is it a nerf to teleportation?

it's always ended your turn after use (unless you've got dimensional agility, which also works in this system), so it doesnt seem much different to me.

then again i dont play casters too often, so if im missing anyhting really obvious please enlighten me.


Scavion wrote:
Redblade8 wrote:

I just noticed that sneak attack is now only spoiled by total concealment, not just concealment. That's pretty big, isn't it?

Ghorrin Redblade

Yup. Means a thug in an alley isnt a total pushover anymore.

but only if he's a rogue, not a slayer.

(it's not as if a slayer doesnt get his own tricks though.)


i was considering vmc, but it took too many feats away (turns out stealth is pretty intensive!) to really justify it.


reposting form the UC rogue general discussion thread:

AndIMustMask wrote:

So i've been fiddling around with things for the unchained rogue, and here's what I've come up with:

Spoiler:

half-elf unchained rogue 20
FCB: 18 human (+3 talents), 2 hp
Alt racials: dual-minded (+2 will)

example stats (dex>cha>con=wis>int>str)
base: str 10, dex 16 (5+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 14 (5), cha 14 (5)
final: str 16, dex 32, con 20, int 16, wis 20, cha 24
+5 dex (level), +6 all (gear), +5 dex/+4 cha (book/wish)

traits - river rat/reactionary

edges
5 - stealth
10 - perception
15 - sleight of hand
20 - escape artist

talents
2 - combat trick (TWF)
4 - minor magic (detect magic at-will)
6 - fast stealth
6* - major magic (chill touch 8/day)
8 - ninja trick (pressure points)
10 - double debilitation
12 - slippery mind
12* - crippling strike
14 - opportunist
16 - improved evasion
18 - ???
18* - ???
20 - ???

feats
1 - skill focus (stealth)
1* - weapon finesse (dagger/???/??? +D2D)
3 - eldritch heritage (shadow 1)
5 - steadfast personality
7 - hellcat stealth
9 - ITWF
11 - improved eldritch heritage (shadow 9)
13 - dampen presence
15 - ???
17 - ???
19 - ???


-pretty much always attacks touch after level 6 (helps offset TWF penalties and low bab)
-can inflict 2 debilitations + stat damage (str or dex) on sneak attacks
-has HiPS light+dark+blindsight/sense at levels 7, 11, and 13 respectively, moves full speed during stealth at no penalty, and the stealth-break sneak attacks last all turn instead of a single attack (depending on stealth ranks).
-fairly MAD, but gets both wis and cha to will saves as well as slippery mind.

kinda lowish on accuracy, but after activating chill touch and you get an AC debilitation on them you're all set for the most part.

the build becomes MUCH more flexible with the action economy rework, since he could [move or step+stealth]+[TWF]+[ITWF] for four sneak attacks and loads of debuffs pretty much every round.

- - - - -

Thoughts? suggestions? any glaring flaws i missed?

edit: fixed


2 people marked this as a favorite.

So i've been fiddling around with things for the unchained rogue, and here's what I've come up with, at least initially:

Spoiler:

half-elf unchained rogue 20
FCB: 18 human (+3 talents), 2 hp
Alt racials: dual-minded (+2 will)

example stats (dex>cha>con=wis>int>str)
base: str 10, dex 16 (5+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 14 (5), cha 14 (5)
final: str 16, dex 32, con 20, int 16, wis 20, cha 24
+5 dex (level), +6 all (gear), +5 dex/+4 cha (book/wish)

traits - river rat/reactionary

edges
5 - stealth
10 - perception
15 - sleight of hand
20 - escape artist

talents
2 - combat trick (TWF)
4 - minor magic (detect magic at-will)
6 - fast stealth
6* - major magic (chill touch 8/day)
8 - ninja trick (pressure points)
10 - double debilitation
12 - slippery mind
12* - crippling strike
14 - opportunist
16 - improved evasion
18 - ???
18* - ???
20 - ???

feats
1 - skill focus (stealth)
1* - weapon finesse (dagger/???/??? +D2D)
3 - eldritch heritage (shadow 1)
5 - steadfast personality
7 - hellcat stealth
9 - ITWF
11 - improved eldritch heritage (shadow 9)
13 - dampen presence
15 - ???
17 - ???
19 - ???


-pretty much always attacks touch after level 6 (helps offset TWF penalties and low bab)
-can inflict 2 debilitations + stat damage (str or dex) on sneak attacks
-has HiPS light+dark+blindsight/sense at levels 7, 11, and 13 respectively, moves full speed during stealth at no penalty, and the stealth-break sneak attacks last all turn instead of a single attack (depending on stealth ranks).
-fairly MAD, but gets both wis and cha to will saves as well as slippery mind.

kinda lowish on accuracy, but after activating chill touch and you get an AC debilitation on them you're all set for the most part.

the build becomes MUCH more flexible with the action economy rework, since he could [move or step+stealth]+[TWF]+[ITWF] for four sneak attacks and loads of debuffs pretty much every round.

- - - - -

Thoughts? suggestions? any glaring flaws i missed?

1 to 50 of 2,463 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

©2002–2015 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.