Questions about creating scrolls (and other items) along with certain feats

If I scribe a summon monster scroll and I cast a spell that I scribed, do my summoned creatures get modified by my characters' Augment Summoning, or do they only affect spells that I cast? (I assume that they would not affect items created by another caster - like a wand of summon monster or a found scroll).

Thanks for any feedback.

If I scribe a summon monster scroll and I cast a spell that I scribed, do my summoned creatures get modified by my characters' Augment Summoning, or do they only affect spells that I cast? (I assume that they would not affect items created by another caster - like a wand of summon monster or a found scroll).

Thanks for any feedback.

I'm pretty sure it only affects the spells you cast. I'd ask the GM because I would consider allowing the affect to be added to the scroll for some nominal fee.

If I scribe a summon monster scroll and I cast a spell that I scribed, do my summoned creatures get modified by my characters' Augment Summoning, or do they only affect spells that I cast? (I assume that they would not affect items created by another caster - like a wand of summon monster or a found scroll).

Thanks for any feedback.

I'm thinking that, as a general feat, Augment Summoning only applies to spells you have cast - the same would apply to such traits as "Diabolical Dabbler". Metamagic feats would have to be integrated into the staff, wand or scroll (affecting the spell level accordingly).

Although it would be an interesting item creation feat to be able to incorporate such benefits into spells cast from such items as you activate them...

William Bryan wrote:

If I scribe a summon monster scroll and I cast a spell that I scribed, do my summoned creatures get modified by my characters' Augment Summoning, or do they only affect spells that I cast? (I assume that they would not affect items created by another caster - like a wand of summon monster or a found scroll).

Thanks for any feedback.

I'm pretty sure it only affects the spells you cast. I'd ask the GM because I would consider allowing the affect to be added to the scroll for some nominal fee.

I am the DM :)

That helps Turrin. Thanks!

...

I'm thinking that, as a general feat, Augment Summoning only applies to spells you have cast - the same would apply to such traits as "Diabolical Dabbler". Metamagic feats would have to be integrated into the staff, wand or scroll (affecting the spell level accordingly).
...

Have to sort of disagree here. As casting a scroll is exactly like casting the spell. As Augment Summoning is NOT a metamagic feat it does not have to be applied to the scroll during crafting.

Here is a PRD reference for casting scrolls.
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.

The above to me indicates that the only difference is the caster level and DC are set by the scroll not the caster, but for everything else it works the same as actually casting the spell. So that appears to fulfill the requirements of the Augment Summoning feat.

Augment Summoning does affect monsters summoned using scrolls. The reference provided above comes directly from the "Determining Effect" portion of the description.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Turin the Mad wrote:

...

I'm thinking that, as a general feat, Augment Summoning only applies to spells you have cast - the same would apply to such traits as "Diabolical Dabbler". Metamagic feats would have to be integrated into the staff, wand or scroll (affecting the spell level accordingly).
...

Have to sort of disagree here. As casting a scroll is exactly like casting the spell. As Augment Summoning is NOT a metamagic feat it does not have to be applied to the scroll during crafting.

Here is a PRD reference for casting scrolls.
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.

The above to me indicates that the only difference is the caster level and DC are set by the scroll not the caster, but for everything else it works the same as actually casting the spell. So that appears to fulfill the requirements of the Augment Summoning feat.

Oooo - ok, that helps a great deal - and it means it would work with certain traits and any other "spell cast" feat, trait or ability.

Thanks for the clarification!

Thank you Jason for taking the time to clarify.

Augment Summoning does affect monsters summoned using scrolls. The reference provided above comes directly from the "Determining Effect" portion of the description.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

If I want to buy such a scroll do you have a suggested pricing for it? My fellow posters are free to chime in of course.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Jason meant that the person reading the scroll may benefit from Augment Summoning or Spell Focus feats if he has them. I don't believe that the creator of the scroll could incorporate the feat into the written work if he had such a feat, as that would change the value of the spell and therefore might have to boost the cost of creating it.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Augment Summoning does affect monsters summoned using scrolls. The reference provided above comes directly from the "Determining Effect" portion of the description.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

If I want to buy such a scroll do you have a suggested pricing for it? My fellow posters are free to chime in of course.

Wraithstrike, I personally don't like to tell players no, or hear no from DM's but this is one of those slippery slopes I would say no to. The simplest reason being magic items have always been considered to be "made by the lowest bidder." The rules themselves state that when an item is made, it is made at the lowest possible caster level using the lowest possible requirements really. To me, that pretty much means least effort possible which translates to fewest perks too.

Basically created items, are "bare bones" effects. You might be able to increase the spell level (meta magic) or the caster level but the spell itself is always considered a "straight" spell, right out of the book as per the description. Heck take a look at the DC's, unless something was changed, the DC isn't adjusted by the caster's/creator's high attribute bonus ever. Even if it is a 9th level spell and the caster of the spell had to have Int 19+ and so was guarenteed to have had an attribute bonus that would influence the spell they cast, when it comes from the item the DC wouldn't be adjusted by it. Nor would the item benefit from the caster having Spell focus (and for me that is the biggest reasoning rules wise that Augment Summoning wouldn't influence it either).

The simplest reason is to reduce book keeping, how many scrolls were made by the guy with the +5 modifier?? How many were just the regular ones?? Everything being bare bones means everything is simple. From an economy standpoint, why would anyone buy a "regular" scroll when you could get an augmented one for the same price? Another is balance. Casters are already pretty powerful, if you could buy scrolls/items modified by feats that don't adjust level and thus price, why would you ever take those feats. "I'll take 3 augmented summoning Summons 4 please, whew! That was one more feat I don't need to take!" Not to metion that augmented summons actually is more powerful the more creatures you summon. Buff spells are valuable slots, the feat is basically 2 free spells for every creature summoned, combat bonuses even - no action cost to boot either. More damage inflicted, more likely to hit, higher Fort Saves and more hit points, possibly better DC's on certain abilities - all that for free, no level adjustment is getting to the "Broken" point even in my very "open" view of gaming.

My suggestion for doing it, is don't.

It is one of those things that ripples out. If you allow that, then you need to be prepared for "why not let my spell focus work" or any other ability that doesn't actually adjust the spell level but influences the spell itself.

If you really really want to do it, the thing you need to price out should be the worst case/most effective use of it - how much is it worth to be able to get off 5 free quickened Bull's Strength and 5 free quickened Bear's Endurance while still retaining your swift/immediate action when using a summon spell (4+1 being the largest number of creatures possible from a summon monster spell) from a scroll or item. Looking from it that way, the feat is broken on paper no? Allowing that to not just be a perk for having taken the feat and given to everyone who can possibly use magic items (which is everyone now that there isn't such thing as a class restricted UMD skill) is broken. Honestly, it demands a high price tag if it is going to be seriously considered.

*Off topic* Augmented Stirges and Dire Weasels make 3.5 PC's cry, I still get tear eyed thinking about when it happened at our table *End*

stuff about scrolls

The basic scrolls, and actually all magic items are assumed to go by the ones in the book(lowest caster level possible), but you can also use different caster levels when creating magic items, which would also affect the price.

I do understand your concerns though, but I trust my players even though they have not even come up with the idea. I would not play with someone if trust was a factor.
I had no idea of pricing it as a regular price. I don't do freebies.
As for book keeping that is not an issue. Now if the players get bad with it they will have other issues pop up, but I am not worried about it for now.
I think you are over exaggerating by using the quicken spells just to make the items cost so much they won't be purchased. An item should be given a cost of reason if it will be put on the market. The summon scrolls basically make them as good as a summon spell that is one level higher so that is also an option for pricing. There is no way I would waste quicken anything on a summon in combat. The spells still cost money that could go to permanent items.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Jason meant that the person reading the scroll may benefit from Augment Summoning or Spell Focus feats if he has them. I don't believe that the creator of the scroll could incorporate the feat into the written work if he had such a feat, as that would change the value of the spell and therefore might have to boost the cost of creating it.

You are correct I think. No augmented scrolls for sale then.

Skylancer4 wrote:

stuff about scrolls

The basic scrolls, and actually all magic items are assumed to go by the ones in the book(lowest caster level possible), but you can also use different caster levels when creating magic items, which would also affect the price.

I do understand your concerns though, but I trust my players even though they have not even come up with the idea. I would not play with someone if trust was a factor.
I had no idea of pricing it as a regular price. I don't do freebies.
As for book keeping that is not an issue. Now if the players get bad with it they will have other issues pop up, but I am not worried about it for now.
I think you are over exaggerating by using the quicken spells just to make the items cost so much they won't be purchased. An item should be given a cost of reason if it will be put on the market. The summon scrolls basically make them as good as a summon spell that is one level higher so that is also an option for pricing.

To be honest I have no issue with the feat, my example was just to point out what exactly the feat does if you are trying to come up with a price. The end result of it, you get a 2 free quicked spells cast on each creature you summoned, you can't argue that isn't good ;) And I would be hard pressed to really argue with someone if they wanted to call it "too good" action economy what it is. Just because it doesn't always do that doesn't mean you can ignore that it could do it if you are trying to fairly price something. Like I said, worst case scenario was 10 spells free of cost, best case is 2. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but stating what something does isn't an exageration ;) And again as I said, if you are seriously considering allowing it and want to figure our a fair price, everything that could be possible needs to be taken into account. I love creating unique magic items both for my characters and for the characters I run for (the rare times I run) mostly because they aren't the "same old stuff" and tend to make things more exciting IMO. But allowing the feat to be transferred through to items causes my internal alarm to go off, when that happens I usually just say no unless someone can come up with really good points for it to be allowed.

The augmented summon scrolls actually do more than make the spell worth more a spell 1 level higher in my opinion. They give a perma (in so far as the bonus is there for as long as the creature is summoned) enhancement bonus to all creatures you summon. The bonus is the equivalent of (2) 2nd level spells that you didn't come from your spells for the day, it could also be compared to a slotless magic item that increases two stats. At low levels that is amazing, at mid levels it makes lower level creatures summoned more effective and even at high levels and a single creature being summoned a +4 to two stats isn't insignificant especially considering it isn't something the creature would have normally IE it isn't going to waste. I'd say that is probably worth at least a +2 level adjustment.

There is no way I would waste quicken anything on a summon in combat. The spells still cost money that could go to permanent items.

I agree, I wouldn't waste that spell doing so either, BUT at worst the feat gives you the effective benefit of 2 free quickened spells for each of the creatures you summoned, spells you haven't lost or had to prepare - FREE and exactly why I said some people (those who give high value to action economy) could argue the feat itself is too good or broken as it stands. Or as I mentioned just now, it is effectively a "free" (as it doesn't cost you gold to make) slotless magic item that every creature you summon is given. Let's figure the gp cost of the "item":

IIRC a +4 item is 8k, an item that has 2 effects but takes up the same slot would be normal price +1.5x's the normal price of additional effects? We're looking at 20k but then we need to double that again as this bonus has no slot, it just is. Basically every creature has an item worth 40k+ gold on it.
Now one side could argue that the item isn't permanently with you so it isn't worth that much and I could see that. The other side could argue that doesn't matter because every time you need it, it is there. Basically whenever it is important enough to cast a spell you gain the bonus, so in effect it is permanent. I couldn't fault that logic either. You only cast your spells when things are bad enough to warrant it, so in effect the bonus is always there when you need it. Every creature you summon has a free "magic item" that can't be stolen as it isn't some slotted item nor can it be removed from what I read. (By RAW it is an enhancement bonus but it isn't called out as a magical effect so if the creature was hit with a dispel it isn't something that goes away. For all intents and purposes when you have this feat you have "masterwork summoned creatures")

Regardless the feat is really good, items having the feat is too good, at least from my perspective. Again, none of this is meant to be argumentative, just trying to put a perspective on things so if you or anyone else really wanted this ability on an item a price you see what you are really getting from it.

Actually, Create Scroll is nearly a complete waste of a feat, as you can only scribe one spell per day.

Smeelbo

Actually, Create Scroll is nearly a complete waste of a feat, as you can only scribe one spell per day.

Smeelbo

I think wizards get it free, but I don't think I have ever picked it up for any caster by choice.

I don't understand why any player character would ever create a scroll instead of buying it. At one game day per spell scribed, you are far better offer crafting a wand, if you can afford it. A first level wand would cost 375 GP and one day to make, whereas scribing two first level spells would cost 25 GP and two days to make.

Really, given the one day per spell scribed, one really wonders who the heck is scribing the scrolls you find for sale.

Smeelbo

I don't understand why any player character would ever create a scroll instead of buying it. At one game day per spell scribed, you are far better offer crafting a wand, if you can afford it. A first level wand would cost 375 GP and one day to make, whereas scribing two first level spells would cost 25 GP and two days to make.

Really, given the one day per spell scribed, one really wonders who the heck is scribing the scrolls you find for sale.

Smeelbo

Wizards get the feat for free, and why buy something if you can get it for half price?

You also forgot that one scroll can hold more than one spell so getting more than one spell per day is possible.

Pathfinder Core Rule Book, page 552:

"Only one spell can be scribed in a day."

So no, you can't scribe a single scroll with multiple spells in a single day.

Smeelbo

Pathfinder Core Rule Book, page 552:

"Only one spell can be scribed in a day."

So no, you can't scribe a single scroll with multiple spells in a single day.

Smeelbo

I guess the only default is that you are not trying to make any other magic items, but that could be said for trying to make any consumables.

Actually, you can only work on a single magic item in a day. So if you make a single scroll of a first level spell, that's it for the day.

What is true is that you can craft a scroll or potion whose cost to make is 250 GP or less in two hours, instead of 8. But you can't make multiple items in a day, regardless of type.

So I guess the deal is that you could make a single cheap potion or scroll in a couple hours after a hard day of adventuring.

Smeelbo

Actually, Create Scroll is nearly a complete waste of a feat, as you can only scribe one spell per day.

Smeelbo

Have to strongly disagree with this. Scribe Scroll is an excellent feat. Anything that expands the versatility of a Wizard adds to his/her/its power almost exponentially.

If a wizard loses his spellbook. Can the spells still in memory
be used to place in a new spellbook without having to copy from another
spell book or a scroll?

Smeelbo wrote:

Actually, Create Scroll is nearly a complete waste of a feat, as you can only scribe one spell per day.

Smeelbo

Have to strongly disagree with this. Scribe Scroll is an excellent feat. Anything that expands the versatility of a Wizard adds to his/her/its power almost exponentially.

I agree, Scribe Scroll is a good way to have those rarely used but

valuable at the right time spells, like Comprehend Languages or
Gaseous Form.