What are the "key" magic items?

My DM and I are trying to streamline his world. This involves heavily tweaking the magic item list. We also plan to incorporate some house rules to go with this, but that's for another forum.

I know that characters are assumed to have magic items by certain levels. The mechanics are balanced based on that assumption. +3 swords. Rings of Protection. Pearls of Power. Most guides I read include these "must have" items.

So, what ARE the "must have" items that "balance" the game? I know that anything with an "enhancement" bonus applies. Weapon, armor and stat enhancers, but what else? Do you PLAN for your characters to have Pearls of Power or Amulets of Natural Armor? Are they key to game balance in any way? Also, how MANY stat bonuses will a character get throughout his character? Surely not a +6 to EVERY stat.

Insights, please?

Magic weapons and armor. Stat boosters for your main stat and later a secondary stat. Cloaks of resistance. About level/4 in miscellaneous AC boosters for melee. This is a project that just involves some tedious math, that's all.

My DM and I are trying to streamline his world. This involves heavily tweaking the magic item list. We also plan to incorporate some house rules to go with this, but that's for another forum.

I know that characters are assumed to have magic items by certain levels. The mechanics are balanced based on that assumption. +3 swords. Rings of Protection. Pearls of Power. Most guides I read include these "must have" items.

So, what ARE the "must have" items that "balance" the game? I know that anything with an "enhancement" bonus applies. Weapon, armor and stat enhancers, but what else? Do you PLAN for your characters to have Pearls of Power or Amulets of Natural Armor? Are they key to game balance in any way? Also, how MANY stat bonuses will a character get throughout his character? Surely not a +6 to EVERY stat.

Insights, please?

I think the magic items needed may change depend on the tweaks*. They will also depend on the particular classes played.

Unless you decide to plan your tweaks around the missing(for lack of a better word) magic items. I would do the tweak first, and then try to decide which magic items would be most desired after the fact.

Also bear in mine that only allowing a smaller list of items takes away from player choice and sometimes players choose items based on a coolness factor, as opposed to a usefulness factor.*

*I am sure you know your group better than I do, but I felt it was worth mentioning, and group dynamics do change sometimes.

PS: I know I said a lot without answering any questions, but I will be back after others chime in to see if I can get a better feel of what works in his campaign world.

The "big six" magic items that are typically taken:

weapons
armor
ring of protection
amulet of natural armor
cloak of resistance
stat boosting items

In PF the stat boosting items have been reworked a bit from 3.5. Now all physical stat boosts take the belt slot, while mental attributes take the head slot. There are variations on what values are boosted, but basically the best you could do would be to either have one physical and one metal at +6, or all stats at +2.

As far as other items, getting some boots to help with your movement in one way or another is always good. Having a bag of holding or handy haversack is also a standard item to get.

You can wear two rings, so there is the choice of another ring.

After that it really starts to depend on the individual character, but all of the above are normally taken as they impact the basic metrics of the character, plus they are "always on" so no need to activate the item and waste a valuable action.

In terms of game balance, you really have to look to the big six items, as they really do affect the "spine" of the system directly.

While it's true that I'm trying to build house rules, I'm also curious as a generic interest.

For this particular game, everybody involved came to the table and asked "please reduce the magic items" We're tired of winning because we have awesome things. We want to win because WE are awesome. With that being said, we plan to incorporate all of the enhancement items into level progression. This includes stats, to-hit and damage, saves and AC.

My question to this general forum is, how many stat boosting items is "normal" for levels 5, 10, 15 and 20? I can easily figure out when to give weapon/AC/Save bonuses, but whether or not to give the wizard extra spell slots or allow the rogue to turn himself invisible is concerning us.

So, what percentage of starting wealth should GO to permanent enhancers and how much to "nice to have" wonderous items? How do most people divvy that out?

The Handy Haversack and Bag of Holding. These go a long way to reducing the worry about hauling treasure about without encumbrance.

Wands of Cure X Wounds (light being most cost effective).

Mithral Shirt for everyone except the party tank

While it's true that I'm trying to build house rules, I'm also curious as a generic interest.

For this particular game, everybody involved came to the table and asked "please reduce the magic items" We're tired of winning because we have awesome things. We want to win because WE are awesome. With that being said, we plan to incorporate all of the enhancement items into level progression. This includes stats, to-hit and damage, saves and AC.

My question to this general forum is, how many stat boosting items is "normal" for levels 5, 10, 15 and 20? I can easily figure out when to give weapon/AC/Save bonuses, but whether or not to give the wizard extra spell slots or allow the rogue to turn himself invisible is concerning us.

So, what percentage of starting wealth should GO to permanent enhancers and how much to "nice to have" wonderous items? How do most people divvy that out?

Why not just make them more expensive? I don't mean that one sentence to be a cure all however. I know magic weapons should come early enough to overcome DR/magic, but if you increase the price of many of the items by X%* or give it them out 2 or 3 levels later than normal you can make the game harder without having to redo the magic item section.

*I have not idea what this number should be.

Why not just make them more expensive? I don't mean that one sentence to be a cure all however. I know magic weapons should come early enough to overcome DR/magic, but if you increase the price of many of the items by X%* or give it them out 2 or 3 levels later than normal you can make the game harder without having to redo the magic item section.

*I have not idea what this number should be.

Nonononono. We don't want to make the game harder. We want the difficulty to stay the exact same. We just want to get RID of magic items by incorporating their function into character build. I'm just trying to figure out what the "standard" functions actually ARE.

Mok's "big six list" was quite helpful.

As far as bags of holding go. I admit that they ARE "standard", so thank you for the mention. However, we feel that their existence would logically upset a "normal" medieval style economy. We don't think there would be nifty "protect the trade caravan" missions if too many of these things existed.

I'm crunching the numbers right now based on starting wealth. I'm just not sure what percentage should be "permanent" boosts.

wraithstrike wrote:

Why not just make them more expensive? I don't mean that one sentence to be a cure all however. I know magic weapons should come early enough to overcome DR/magic, but if you increase the price of many of the items by X%* or give it them out 2 or 3 levels later than normal you can make the game harder without having to redo the magic item section.

*I have not idea what this number should be.

Nonononono. We don't want to make the game harder. We want the difficulty to stay the exact same. We just want to get RID of magic items by incorporating their function into character build. I'm just trying to figure out what the "standard" functions actually ARE.

Mok's "big six list" was quite helpful.

As far as bags of holding go. I admit that they ARE "standard", so thank you for the mention. However, we feel that their existence would logically upset a "normal" medieval style economy. We don't think there would be nifty "protect the trade caravan" missions if too many of these things existed.

I'm crunching the numbers right now based on starting wealth. I'm just not sure what percentage should be "permanent" boosts.

The VoP is a decent example to look at, as far as stat boost go. I would not follow it to a tee, but it is good for deciding when certain stats should be gained.

I'm good with most abbreviations, but I'm having trouble with "VoP" right now. ...

Thank you all for helping out, btw.

VoP = Vow of Poverty, from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

I'm not sure I'd use it as an example, though. It's not the overpowering feat most people think it is, mainly because it spreads out its bonuses to everywhere, even places that your character won't possibly need (because it has to be somewhat viable for any character).

Oh, yeah! I had forgotten about that. I'll give it a look! Cheers! Even if it's not totally useful, I AM looking for an "every character" solution.

Glad to help. Personally, I'm not so much a fan of reducing the dependency on magic items as I am a fan of reducing the dependency on required magic items. There's books and books full of awesome flavorful items that I'd love to use, but (for example) I cannot in good conscience choose a helm slot item aside from a circlet of vast intelligence for a wizard.

Paizo helped this somewhat by condensing the stat enhancers into just two body slots, but there are still just too many requirements.

VoP = Vow of Poverty, from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

I'm not sure I'd use it as an example, though. It's not the overpowering feat most people think it is, mainly because it spreads out its bonuses to everywhere, even places that your character won't possibly need (because it has to be somewhat viable for any character).

I was saying just look at it for when to hand out stat bonuses. I am in no way advocating that feat. I am thinking the OP will spread the stats out according to class, instead of giving everyone a +2 to the exact same stat regardless of class.

Glad to help. Personally, I'm not so much a fan of reducing the dependency on magic items as I am a fan of reducing the dependency on required magic items. There's books and books full of awesome flavorful items that I'd love to use, but (for example) I cannot in good conscience choose a helm slot item aside from a circlet of vast intelligence for a wizard.

Paizo helped this somewhat by condensing the stat enhancers into just two body slots, but there are still just too many requirements.

I think the +1 to 2 stats ala Star Wars Saga may have been helpful. I have been thinking about trying it, but then I have to decide if I should modify the wealth by level chart to compensate. I don't want the players to get the bonuses, and still buy the same magic items as before.

Glad to help. Personally, I'm not so much a fan of reducing the dependency on magic items as I am a fan of reducing the dependency on required magic items. There's books and books full of awesome flavorful items that I'd love to use, but (for example) I cannot in good conscience choose a helm slot item aside from a circlet of vast intelligence for a wizard.

Paizo helped this somewhat by condensing the stat enhancers into just two body slots, but there are still just too many requirements.

Well, it's the "required" items that we mostly hate. We also plan to slim down the rest of the list to mesh better with the campaign. However, things that aren't no-nos (like bags of holding) will probably only be about 1/2 as common as they would "normally" be. Plus, weapons and armors and such will be "wonderous" items that do nifty things. Stuff like that.

Anyway, I looked at VoP. It seems to be a pretty good breakdown of "must have" stats. I can get rid of the other features, of course, since we're NOT getting rid of gear entirely. However, a +8, +6, +4 and +2 to stats sound fairly reasonable to me. As does the protections and armors and such.

Thanks again!

I think the +1 to 2 stats ala Star Wars Saga may have been helpful. I have been thinking about trying it, but then I have to decide if I should modify the wealth by level chart to compensate. I don't want the players to get the bonuses, and still buy the same magic items as before.

We're doing this as well. Mainly because +1 stat per 4 levels only helps the SADs and hurts the MADs. Saga (and 4e, I believe?) allow you much more flexibility without needlessly overpowering the characters, I think.

It changes as you go through the levels, but I would say something like:
1/4 levels: Armor and Shield Enhancement bonus, Resistance bonus to saves, Primary weapon Enhancement bonus
1/5 levels: Natural AC bonus, Deflection bonus, secondary weapon bonus
1/6 levels +2 to primary stat item
1/8 levels+2 to seconday stats, or additinal +2 to primary stat.
1/10 levels Unnamed AC bonus.
Perhaps an ability score increase at level 12, and every 3 levels after.

As for magic items and movement:
Levels 1-4 occasional feather fall and levitate
Levels 5-10 spider climb, fly, airwalk and other limited access to flight, water breathing, and short range teleportation.
Levels 11- 15 flight often needed, full teleportation, limited plane shifting.
Levels 16-20 Gates, extradimensional spaces, flying all the time.

Instead of adjusting the book adjust the characters. If you incorporate the expected bonuses into the class, you'll end up with items that have meaningless value.

The DM should start by bumping the encounter values while lowering the gold and xp rewards by a couple degrees. Start using the encumbrance rules more the PCs cant carry everything that means they have to start hiring hirelings and using pack animals to transport gear that costs money and theres always the chance of some gear getting lost. The players gp value should be compared to table 12-4 character wealth by level to see what sort adjustment is needed. If the characters are grossly overbalanced, it might be time to rping some harassment from the church for not tithing enough, harassment the state for not paying enough taxes, the guild will harass them for not getting their proper cut, some thieves could rob the characters (highway robbery or a toll), The players could ride into a poor and destitute town only to have the townspeople turn on them and try to take the gear, etc.

In all there are a lot of more enjoyable ways of correcting a generous dm.

Another (admittedly very minor) item that is standard, pretty much from level 1+: everburning torches and/or items with continual flame cast on them.

Firehawk, I think you missed the point.

Instead of adjusting the book adjust the characters. If you incorporate the expected bonuses into the class, you'll end up with items that have meaningless value.

Um .... did you read the threat? The entire point of this is because I WANT to incorporate the bonuses into the characters directly. We don't have "meaningless" items nor do we have "excess" items. We don't have ANY items, nor do we WANT any.

Okay, maybe a few items, but they'll feel that much more awesome when we get them.

Another (admittedly very minor) item that is standard, pretty much from level 1+: everburning torches and/or items with continual flame cast on them.

Ahh ... light. Well, for starters, I'm playing a caster, so light is a free cantrip. Besides that, I'll consider asking the DM to incorporate a solution for the commoners that won't smoke up the place. Everburning torch, magical lamp ... whatever. They're not overpowered and they ARE nice to have.

It changes as you go through the levels, but I would say something like:

1/4 levels: Armor and Shield Enhancement bonus, Resistance bonus to saves, Primary weapon Enhancement bonus
1/5 levels: Natural AC bonus, Deflection bonus, secondary weapon bonus
1/6 levels +2 to primary stat item
1/8 levels+2 to seconday stats, or additinal +2 to primary stat.
1/10 levels Unnamed AC bonus.
Perhaps an ability score increase at level 12, and every 3 levels after.

As for magic items and movement:
Levels 1-4 occasional feather fall and levitate
Levels 5-10 spider climb, fly, airwalk and other limited access to flight, water breathing, and short range teleportation.
Levels 11- 15 flight often needed, full teleportation, limited plane shifting.
Levels 16-20 Gates, extradimensional spaces, flying all the time.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with PoV for anything in the upper list. The bottom list definitely has some "standard" effects that I was going for. Many of those, like teleport, will probably be cast via PCs and NPCs only. The various incarnations of flight, though, will probably require actual items. We'll make sure to give them consideration in some form or another.

I know what you're after. Basically you want to replace magic items with a bonus progression that is similar to the Vow of Poverty out of the older 3.0 book Book of Exalted Deeds.

Basically you toss out most of the magic items and then the players would just get automatic bonuses in various ways as they gain levels.

I've tinkered with this approach, but I haven't broke it down to the level that is really required to fine tune it.

Things to look at:

3.0 Book of Exalted Deeds - check out the Vow of Poverty there, as that is the closest thing in print to what you want.

3.5 Magic Item Compendium - One of the last books in the line, you can see the evolution of the game over the decade in that book and the influence that 4E had in its development. In the back of the book it breaks out the magic items into what is appropriate from levels 1-20, so that is a great guide on when various bonuses and magical abilities would appear.

Trailblazer - This is a "patch" to both 3.5 and Pathfinder. The opening section analyzes the "spine" of the entire system, showing the average progression of various factors over the course of 20 levels. That section of analysis would be very helpful in teasing out when various bonuses should come into play.

In terms of the nitty gritty, if you just wanted to follow how a character might naturally gain items, then just follow the wealth by level rules in the Pathfinder Core book. You could grind through the 20 levels of purchases to see how it all shakes out.

In my own work what I found is that a player ought to be able to afford all big six items as they appear at appropriate levels, with some substitutions depending on if you were using armor vs unarmored (such as swaping magic armor for bracers of armor). Plus one other item, such as magic boots, bag of holding, extra ring, etc.

It is a project that I want to tackle at some point in depth, making a system where hardly any magic items are present in the game, but players still get the assumed bonuses for the big six. The only magic items they'd come across would be items that let you do things that don't affect the core numerical values of the game, such as bags of holding, or rings of feather falling. That way the players are just inherently "awesome" but come across magic items that aid them in doing things they wouldn't otherwise be capable of doing. But that project will have to wait for awhile...

Mok. You nailed it exactly. Utility items are generally fine, but NEEDING enchanted items just keep up is retarded.

Hmm, trailblazer looks interesting. If it does what it's supposed to do, I might have to run a game with it. Hopefully it will help in the current game as well.

I'll probably check out my Magic Item Compendium for ideas, but I don't like most of what it adds. The charts at the end might prove useful, as you say.

Thanks again for the insights. Maybe I'll have something worked out to post in the house rules forum before long!

Every character I play eventually gets a Necklace of Adaptation. The perks it gives are just too good to pass up, so in my opinion, that's one of the essentials.

It sounds interesting overall, but I'm curious:

Your goal seems to be to just shift the bonuses from the items to the PC's.. rather than to shift the power level.

Why then not just have the PC's buy their bonuses as they would have any items? Afterall- if you lose the magic gear you can't sell it, so you don't have nearly as much fluid income.. which sounds fairly nice until you try to buy some spell components or foci, or want to make one of those nifty wonderous-item-armor thingies you were talking about.

A much simpler system would be to just have the PC's "buy" with gold, the enhancements they would have gotten with the equipment.. but without the equipment. That way the PC can choose what they want to get (rather than having it stapled to their sheet whether they want it or not) without you having to rewrite the entire system.

(for instance, at level 5 John Joe could wander into the local wizard's guild and purchase for himself (+5 weapon enhancement) or some such that was applied to himself rather than to any particular weapon) or whatever.
Slightly meta-gamish true, but no more so than just applying all the bonuses to your classes.
I think it would accomplish the same thing you are trying to do (make the Pc special not the shiny sword he found last week) while also allowing each PC to make his or her own choices about what exactly they wanted have bumped up.

It also allows you to continue to follow the WBL and community wealth guidelines in the books.

Just a thought. (or two)

-S

Why then not just have the PC's buy their bonuses as they would have any items?

Because if you are 'spending gold' on nothing, it breaks versimilitude for people. Some people can handle having virtual gold to spend on virtual items. Other people understand it better when given a chart that says '+1 to AC at this level' for every level, and 'gain wings or ninja invisibility at this level' when they need to pick a utility power.

If you can work out a progression of bonuses and abilities that are character features, some people find that easier. After all, isn't that exactly what a class is?

It sounds interesting overall, but I'm curious:

Your goal seems to be to just shift the bonuses from the items to the PC's.. rather than to shift the power level.

One of the reason why I've been working on the approach that lordgriffin is interested in is that I have yet to come across any rules that systematically detail how to change the setting in the game so that you can have little or no magic. There is no well defined metrics on how to adjust the settings so that you'll get consistent combat results in relation to CR.

So one way is just to assume the magic is there with the bonuses, and that way things ought to be close enough in relation to the standard CR values.

A much simpler system would be to just have the PC's "buy" with gold, the enhancements they would have gotten with the equipment.. but without the equipment. That way the PC can choose what they want to get (rather than having it stapled to their sheet whether they want it or not) without you having to rewrite the entire system.

For myself at least this would be exactly the feel I'd want to avoid. In a low magic setting the players shouldn't have the ability to select what magical powers they want to possess. If the magic is present it ought to be emulating the feel of the Hero's Journey style of storytelling, where the magic they come across is more of a boon of the gods, assisting the hero in the quest. If you make it so that the player can get an effect made to order for themselves then, well... it still is a magic item economy to some degree, rather than a mythic tale.

At least that's how I'd see it.

There is enough player choice in character advancement to keep players satisfied.

The Star Wars Saga edition RPG does this whole effect pretty well. While it is still very d20ish, characters get a lot more bonuses as they level up compared to a D&D character. As you level up, you just get more awesome because you're a bigger and better hero. Along with that they make the gear in the game never overshadow the bonuses the character brings to their rolls and so in that way it does a pretty good job of decoupling the gear from the character.

I'd love to see a plug in to Pathfinder that would let you completely redial the game to a low magic setting and get away from made-to-order magic items and the endless treadmill of upgrades that it entails.

Selgard wrote:

Why then not just have the PC's buy their bonuses as they would have any items?

Because if you are 'spending gold' on nothing, it breaks versimilitude for people. Some people can handle having virtual gold to spend on virtual items. Other people understand it better when given a chart that says '+1 to AC at this level' for every level, and 'gain wings or ninja invisibility at this level' when they need to pick a utility power.

If you can work out a progression of bonuses and abilities that are character features, some people find that easier. After all, isn't that exactly what a class is?

You're not spending gold on nothing, you're spending it on *training*.

You're not spending gold on nothing, you're spending it on *training*.

Which is going to restrict them from buying anything but +X to stat Y. Most people don't accept the fighter buying the ability to fly without some magical item, no matter how much training he does.

The equation of bonuses is essentially a balancing act between opposing factors.

THe Enhancement bonus to your armor should equal the enhancement bonus to your weaponry. They thus offset, chance remains neutral.

The primary ability bonus you get should equal the primary ability bonus of your opponent, and your secondary ability should be no worse then 5 less then an opponent's.

Your saving throws should increase at the same rate ability score mods increase the difficulty. A strong or weak save basically becomes a match against 'spell level'. A ring of protection is there to replace stat advancement in your weak save, and make your strong save REALLY strong.

The target is generally a 30 in prime stat by level 20, and a 25 in secondary stat. Target AC is based on 15 BAB+level, so a 35 AC, higher if you use a shield. Target saves should be at +9, which is a weak save +5=11, and ability scores offset from there.

Operating from a base AC of, say, 16, the characters should basically gain 20 pts of AC over the next 19 levels. 5 should be Dex or stat, 5 from Armor Enhancement, and 10 from 'other sources', traditionally Nat AC and Deflection.

The characters should reach a 30 in their prime stat by level 20. That's a 15 to start with, +5 from levels, +6 stat, and +5 inherent = 31. Their secondary stat should be at least +8 over starting (+6 enhance, +2 inherent). And, they should have +2 at least in all stats.

I would suggest looking at how 4E handled this. They made types of armor you could have become available by level, and did away with Nat AC boosters, working it into the armor profiles (the best heavy armor starts at +8 at level 1 and goes to +13 at level 30) and THEN added enhancement bonuses.

Nat AC was done away with.

Characters get an ability raise every 2 levels (so, 15 raises), but do so over 30 levels. They also get broad buffs at levels 10 and 20 to all stats.

Everyone gets an AC bonus every level, and everyone's BAB goes up at the exact same pace. Weapon enhancements offset armor enhancements, there are no shield enhancements, and feats to up AC are offset by feats to hit more.

The whole 'mechanical' aspect of adding bonuses for attack rolls vs AC, and saves vs. DC, is made linear over the levels, and iron control is kept on those bonuses.

It's the unlimited nature of stats in 3.5 that can throw the whole system out of whack, especially coupled with templates and shapechanging, and size. The only way to gain stats in 4E is via levelling...that's it. no magic items, no shapechanging, nothing.

I'm not a 4e lover...much of the work they did I feel should have been used to revise 3.5, not turn my game into minatures rules that it sprang from. But they did a good job identifying the problems you're looking at.

I suggest looking at the basic rules of the 4E SRD and simply 'adjusting' them to 20 levels, and you'll have a very good idea where to begin. 15 pts over 20 levels instead of 30 is the same as Medium BAB and shouldn't be hard to implement. 10 pts of AC is also easy to swap in and out.

===Aelryinth

One thing to be wary of as you do this: you're effectively freeing up item slots (because nothing is using the belt slot now, for example, or the headband slot), so if the PCs get items that fill those slots they're getting a little extra potentially. Sounds like you're going with a low-magic campaign, though, so the power increase issue seems to be in-hand.

I never buy that people will ever get +5 inheret; that would imply they waited out that long to get their stat up. In Pathfinder (unlike 3.5) reading a stat book / getting a wish does not stack with a previous use of said thing. So unless people are going to respend every time they want to do it, they're never going to ACTUALLY get that, they would have invested too much in the +2 early. I think +5 Inherets only appear on people who "money buy a level 20"

Wow. At first I was afraid this thread would turn into a discussion of "how I should house rule it", but I'm getting a lot of what I asked for. Opinions and examples of what levels of magical power characters tend to have by various levels.

As far as house rules, I seem to have a few key possibilities.

*Pre-determined increases to the character via level. The Vow of Poverty is a good example. Can also takes ideas from 4e and Saga.

*Raising the CR of monsters appropriately (would need a little more research to figure out by how much).

*Giving players "upgrade points" every level. Probably based on the "starting wealth chart" instead of in game currency. ACTUAL money will be used for personal luxuries, political gain and other "mundane" uses. You know ... role playing!

Hmmm, perhaps I should start a thread in the house rules forum to see if I can get proper opinions on how, exactly I "should" apply all of this.

Anyway, I thank you all again for your insights. I'm getting giddy just thinking about not having to deal with all the required gear!

Glad to help. Personally, I'm not so much a fan of reducing the dependency on magic items as I am a fan of reducing the dependency on required magic items. There's books and books full of awesome flavorful items that I'd love to use, but (for example) I cannot in good conscience choose a helm slot item aside from a circlet of vast intelligence for a wizard.

Paizo helped this somewhat by condensing the stat enhancers into just two body slots, but there are still just too many requirements.

It's now a "headband" of vast intell, so you don't have to sacrifice your head slot no more.

Headband of int and cha +6 AND circlet of persuasion: a skill monkey's damp dream, however...

I never buy that people will ever get +5 inheret; that would imply they waited out that long to get their stat up. In Pathfinder (unlike 3.5) reading a stat book / getting a wish does not stack with a previous use of said thing. So unless people are going to respend every time they want to do it, they're never going to ACTUALLY get that, they would have invested too much in the +2 early. I think +5 Inherets only appear on people who "money buy a level 20"

Unless you realize that getting the higher bonus 'neutralizes' the lower bonus by existance and there the lower bonus will be 'recouped' at a later time much like the use of a wand or potion is 'recouped' later. There isn't a finite amount of wealth in the game. So long as the wealth levels stay 'generally' in the range suggested in the book fluctuations are to be expected and desired. It worse in many ways the same way that a scroll put into a wizard's spell book does. He's 'lost' the value of the scroll (minus the value of the spell now being in the book) and that value will have to be 'made up' at a later point in the game. Not that this is a huge deal... it's an expected and accepted part of the whole thing.

In all likeliness the character will 'buy' the lower inherent bonuses when they are available and upgrade later reasonably expecting that the now defunct lower bonus will 'fall off' his wealth by level and be replaced by something else.

Normally I don't double post but this is a separate part to the above.

Generally I get a "wish list" from my players before play if I can. If not I make a point of trying to figure out what they would like. When they get gold that they spend on 'role play' it generally comes out with some sort of advantage to them for their effort. In general if they spend heavy on a good meal and great night's sleep I'll give them the effects of a Bless 'potion' for the next day. It's been spent, they get an increase in use in the short term and I will cycle a bit more wealth in at a later point to make up for the 'deficiency'.

The main point of my thoughts is to get away from the "finite" wealth concept that people tend to get into their head when they see the wealth by level guides... this isn't a "I'll only get 880,000 gp in my entire game so I best spend it wisely" thing... it's a "by level 20 I can reasonably expect to have acquired enough stuff to have around this type of equipment".

One thing to be wary of as you do this: you're effectively freeing up item slots (because nothing is using the belt slot now, for example, or the headband slot), so if the PCs get items that fill those slots they're getting a little extra potentially. Sounds like you're going with a low-magic campaign, though, so the power increase issue seems to be in-hand.

Exactly. Most "magic items" in this game will be on the level of relics and minor artifacts. Even the weak ones will be very special. Think of most fantasy books that you may have read. A "simple" ring of invisibility was the doom of the world. Okay, it was the biggest artifact around, but still. LotR didn't have much else besides the Great Rings, did it? A sword or two, maybe. Even a "standard issue" mithril shirt was an EXTREMELY big deal.

How many magic items are in Dragonlance? Even the dragonlances themselves only seemed to be masterwork (although I haven't looked up stats in awhile). Even Raistlin only seemed to have had a magic staff and ... a scroll of charm person, maybe?

Death Gate Cycle (same authors as Dragonlance, of course), didn't have much either. Even with two races of demi-gods running around, there weren't all that many. A dagger, a ship or two. A table. When a protagonist got a chameleon suit, it was a HUGE deal!

That's the kind of feel we're going for. Storytelling and role playing over shopping sprees and roll playing.

3.0 Book of Exalted Deeds - check out the Vow of Poverty there, as that is the closest thing in print to what you want.

FWIW, it's a 3.5 book. BOVD (which preceded it) was one of the very last 3.0 books.

While it's true that I'm trying to build house rules, I'm also curious as a generic interest.

For this particular game, everybody involved came to the table and asked "please reduce the magic items" We're tired of winning because we have awesome things. We want to win because WE are awesome. With that being said, we plan to incorporate all of the enhancement items into level progression. This includes stats, to-hit and damage, saves and AC.

My question to this general forum is, how many stat boosting items is "normal" for levels 5, 10, 15 and 20? I can easily figure out when to give weapon/AC/Save bonuses, but whether or not to give the wizard extra spell slots or allow the rogue to turn himself invisible is concerning us.

So, what percentage of starting wealth should GO to permanent enhancers and how much to "nice to have" wonderous items? How do most people divvy that out?

Jaerom Darkwind did some work with this in 3.5 - here is a link to his collected work http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=801 (unfortunately most of the discussion was 2-3 message boards ago).

The other place you might check for inspiration is the Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Generally speaking magic weapons and armor, a deflection bonus and natural armor bonus to armor class, a resistance bonus to saves, and a bonus to at least your top two ability scores are considered the primary magic items.

For this particular game, everybody involved came to the table and asked "please reduce the magic items" We're tired of winning because we have awesome things. We want to win because WE are awesome. With that being said, we plan to incorporate all of the enhancement items into level progression. This includes stats, to-hit and damage, saves and AC.

I love this attitude.

sadly though, the game is geared for all those awesome magic items. AC barely moves as it is without magic aid, while BAB rises. I'm thinking of adding an AC bonus inherant to the classes to balance my tightwad attitude of reducing magic items. seems only fair

Batts

sadly though, the game is geared for all those awesome magic items. AC barely moves as it is without magic aid, while BAB rises. I'm thinking of adding an AC bonus inherant to the classes to balance my tightwad attitude of reducing magic items. seems only fair

So is the OP. Although he's looking at a bit more than just AC.

LordGriffin wrote:

For this particular game, everybody involved came to the table and asked "please reduce the magic items" We're tired of winning because we have awesome things. We want to win because WE are awesome. With that being said, we plan to incorporate all of the enhancement items into level progression. This includes stats, to-hit and damage, saves and AC.

I love this attitude.

sadly though, the game is geared for all those awesome magic items. AC barely moves as it is without magic aid, while BAB rises. I'm thinking of adding an AC bonus inherant to the classes to balance my tightwad attitude of reducing magic items. seems only fair

Batts

I have Dodge give another +1 Dodge bonus to AC every 4 character levels (for a total of +6 AC at level 20)... my players love the idea and are actually seeing the feat as more than just a simple useless prerequisite feat.

I actually like this conceptually; it's a creative idea. The VoP obviously did it too well, and rewarded those who didn't need them in the first place (VoP druid FTW!) Obviously they're still wearing basic armor, but it's not a "lootfest" like classic roleplaying games are (strip someone down, realize their armor is magic, put it on? Like, seriously? How... heroic....). These guys will have their weapon and armor from the beginning, and realize the magic through themselves... the armor of their fallen foes would stay at their feet. Seems more like the books you read, doesn't it?

So you take the focus off the treasure and put it into the character. But I still think you need to give some flexibility; while stats are a given (and effectively changing things from once every 4 levels to one stat point every level, no 2 consecutive levels can hit the same stat, would do that quite nicely), many other things aren't. Will I go for the massive damage vs evil and the ability to eat through DR (A Holy-warrior type advancement), will I save for a permanent ability (having certain effects, like the All-popular Freedom of Movement, as a line of these special bonuses might be nice. Start off with +10 movement rate, than add on +4 CMD, and build your way up).

It would be a ton of work to set up those magic item "lines" to be balanced, but if you were able to do it it'd be a lot of fun to see.

Keep us posted, curious to see how it turns out :).

I actually like this conceptually; it's a creative idea. The VoP obviously did it too well, and rewarded those who didn't need them in the first place (VoP druid FTW!)

Actually, be very careful using the VoP as-is. If you're not a class which can go essentially naked and still do well (e.g. 3.5 druid), you're still far behind the curve compared to a character with gear.

It's an interesting concept, but do not trust the specific numbers to be of any value.

I continue to love all the support I'm getting for this. Since VoP keeps cropping up, here are the numbers to consider, which are evenly distributed among 20 levels:

Strike +5 (to-hit and damage to anything you do)
AC +6 (technically it's +10, but I'm assuming you'll actually be wearing armor, which this would be a bonus to)
Deflect +3
Resist +3
Nat Armor +2

VoP has all sorts of other goodies for characters who are actually exalted, but these are the the main "enhancements".

As to the "druid only" thing. I don't think so. I'm not requiring any level of actual poverty, and the AC and Strike bonuses are enhancements to your normal, unrestricted weapons and armors (but applied via the the character, obviously).

VoP also offers "exalted feats" every other level, as well as other bonuses to counteract the lack of magical items, which COULD be incorporated. However, discussing that any further delves too far into house rule discussions, for which I really should just open a thread there.

As to the "druid only" thing. I don't think so. I'm not requiring any level of actual poverty, and the AC and Strike bonuses are enhancements to your normal, unrestricted weapons and armors (but applied via the the character, obviously).

The point was that VoP was fairly significantly weaker than actual gear, so take the numbers with a grain of salt. Even monks, who need little in mundane gear but use magical gear just as much as anyone, were weaker with VOP than with actual gear. The concept is fine, the math not quite so much.

Incidentally, if you want to get a snapshot of what people spend their money on at level 10, there's a bunch of examples in the DPR thread.

I started a house rule thread to discuss the practical applications of these ideas here