On-The-Fly NPC Generation Community Project

Okay. This is following a suggestion from Here, by Death Quaker, that this could be a community project if Paizo doesn't go for it.

The goal is to be able to pull out an NPC spontaneously and have a statblock for them, with the only changes needed being applying racial abilities and favored class abilities.

Here's the jist of it.

0. Say what the idea of your build is, list class, and archetypes used.
1. Do a build of a class, from 1-20.
2. Don't include races, backstories, or personalities.
3. No House Rules to the system or calculations.
4. Assign gear, and magic items.
5. Keep it self contained - Include rules text for abilities, like at the end of each NPC.
6. NPCs have to fit on pages evenly, none of the WotC starting an NPC 3/4 of the way through the page stuff.

Things we need to decide:
1. How are we doing attributes?
2. Strict gear pricing. There is the possibility these will be used in a city campaign, and that combat may be mostly against NPCs.
3. How will we format them? Still needs to be readable, but standard NPC Block is pretty hefty. Matters less in a PDF than in a printed file.

I'll help contribute to it too, and I'll compile it into a PDF and put up links here.

Okay. This is following a suggestion from Here, by Death Quaker, that this could be a community project if Paizo doesn't go for it.

It was my suggestion, but inspired by your request for ideas to be fair. :)

The goal is to be able to pull out an NPC spontaneously and have a statblock for them, with the only changes needed being applying racial abilities and favored class abilities.

2. Don't include races, backstories, or personalities.

May I suggest listing at least a very brief, very general concept description, i.e., "Guard/Constable" or "Gambler," etc. ?

May I also suggest that if the stat block creator wishes, they list Boons the NPC could offer, if appropriate?

Things we need to decide:
1. How are we doing attributes?

guidelines in the core rules. I think the creators could use either but note clearly which are used.

GMs that use more robust stat generation methods are likely to tweak stats of a standard stat block anyway.

2. Strict gear pricing. There is the possibility these will be used in a city campaign, and that combat may be mostly against NPCs.

Again, I'd suggest MOST NPCs use the NPC creation guidelines (under "gear") in the core rulebook. Again creators should note whether they use the "basic" or "heroic" suggested guidelines.

However, I'd also suggest that statblocks for "BBEG" type character should use something akin to WBL or WBL-minus-1 rather than suggested wealth for NPCs. In my experience, the NPC wealth guidelines are great for mooks, but dramatically under-equip an enemy who is supposed to be a credible threat by itself and/or only a handful of support.

The simpler thing would just to have creators note how much gp worth of equipment they allotted the particular NPCs, but might result in much more varied equipment sets.

3. How will we format them? Still needs to be readable, but standard NPC Block is pretty hefty. Matters less in a PDF than in a printed file.

It's going to be hefty anyway if you want the statblocks to be self-contained. And I agree they should be! But if every sheet will list all racial abilities, class abilities, etc. with descriptions, they are going to take up a lot of space.

The standard Paizo statblock is something everyone is familiar with. It's actually not my favorite, but it might cause the least confusion.

Otherwise if another format is preferred, a clear, easily copyable template should be provided.

My 2 cents, take or leave.

I'll compile it into a PDF and put up links here.

Sweet. :)

Brief concept I agree with. Just not a detailed set of goals and life story.

The "Gear" section for NPCs gives NPCs gear worth far more than their CR. I was going to suggest something using the Gold their CR is worth, or as close to it as possible, and having a gold value for them to purchase gear with. But at the same time we don't want them to be too easy.

It is really difficult to prep a PFRPG game that focuses on people instead of monsters I can pull form the Bestiary. And one of the issues is that if the players start killing NPCs their wealth goes up much quicker than with monsters.

I was thinking we list racial abilities in a separate document, one race per page. But we could put the favored class features from each race in with the NPCs maybe.

Are we suppossed to give full stats for each level or just give abbreviations of the relevant items in the statblock (skills, ac, hp, cmd etc.)? The differences between levels might be big enough in some cases to require a full writeup for each level which would be a monumental task.

This is the statblock used in the bestiary, it should be easy to copy paste.

Class/archetype and level
------------------------------------
Init: ; Senses: Perception: ;
Aura:
------------------------------------
Defense:
------------------------------------
AC: ; touch: ,flat-footed:
hp:
Fort: Ref: Will:
Special defenses:
Immunities:
Weaknesses:
------------------------------------
Offense:
------------------------------------
Speed:
Melee:
Ranged:
Space: ; Reach:
Special attacks:
Spells:
------------------------------------
Statistics:
------------------------------------
Str: Dex: Con: Int: Wis: Cha:
BaseAtk: ; CMB: ; CMD:
Feats:
Skills:
SQ:
Languages:
Gear:

Brief concept I agree with. Just not a detailed set of goals and life story.

Definitely.

The "Gear" section for NPCs gives NPCs gear worth far more than their CR. I was going to suggest something using the Gold their CR is worth, or as close to it as possible, and having a gold value for them to purchase gear with. But at the same time we don't want them to be too easy.

You know, I never noticed that. That is... problematic. For NPCs that are not meant to be adversaries, I would say it's not a big deal--and for NPCs indeed meant to be cohorts or hirelings, it's probably okay (because NPC wealth is still a fraction of PC WBL).

Because I can tell you this: I have created a number of high level NPCs as adversaries. If I use the NPC wealth guidelines, the NPCs are under-equipped--compared to a monster of the same CR--and the PCs--their saves and AC are usually miserable unless enough is put into protective items, and if "enough" is put into protective items their weapons or something else are not good (or they can't have something that would just be fun, like, IDK, a robe of stars because they can't "afford" it). Now, again, these are HIGH LEVEL NPCs... the problem may not be as notable at lower levels, I'm not sure. And maybe I'm just bad at picking gear for my NPCs.

This is I think more a problem that the guidelines are too loose, but it's hard to do something on the fly when your different guidelines for what treasure something should have don't mesh.

Maybe if NPC creators have time, they create two gear lists. One is based on the "standard" medium progression wealth guidelines. The second is based on the NPC wealth guidelines. Just note which are incorporated into the stats.

It is really difficult to prep a PFRPG game that focuses on people instead of monsters I can pull form the Bestiary.

I so, so very painfully hear you.

And one of the issues is that if the players start killing NPCs their wealth goes up much quicker than with monsters.

I haven't had as much of a problem with that, but my players missed a couple treasure caches I left for them so they're catching up (and they're high level anyway, so it doesn't matter as much).

The issue isn't so much that PCs get wealthy by itself--it's what they are capable of doing with that wealth in a given campaign. Much of which can be very circumstantial.

I was thinking we list racial abilities in a separate document, one race per page.

You know, I didn't mean to say "racial abilities" since your proposal was for the statblocks to be raceless, but a separate sheet for what to do with races could be useful. Maybe make it optional?

that could work.

I was also thinking, that we don't need the full statblock at each level (as Mortagon Suggested).

I'm thinking like this:
1 Page statblock - 1, 5, 10, 15, 20.
1 Page that just lists what changed (skill totals, new feats, ability scores (if they changed) hp, saves, and new gear & spells) for levels 2,3,4,6,7,8,9,11,12,13,14,16,17,18,19.

If those are too sparse then maybe stat out every 4 levels + 1 and 20.

that could work.

I was also thinking, that we don't need the full statblock at each level (as Mortagon Suggested).

I'm thinking like this:
1 Page statblock - 1, 5, 10, 15, 20.
1 Page that just lists what changed (skill totals, new feats, ability scores (if they changed) hp, saves, and new gear & spells) for levels 2,3,4,6,7,8,9,11,12,13,14,16,17,18,19.

If those are too sparse then maybe stat out every 4 levels + 1 and 20.

I think we should either go for a full statblock at each level, or only at certain levels. Summarizing all levels in between will be a formatting hell.

To get things started here's a 1st level antipaladin using the format I posted above:

Antipaladin level 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Init: +1; Senses: Detect good; Perception: -1;
Aura: Aura of evil
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defense:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
AC: 16; touch: 11,flat-footed: 15 (+5 armor, +1 dex)
hp: 11 (1 hd; 1d10+1)
Fort: +3 Ref: +1 Will: +1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Offense:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed: 20 ft.
Melee: Greatsword +3 (2d6+3/19-20)
Ranged: Javelin +2 (1d6+2)
Space: 5 ft.; Reach: 5 ft.
Special attacks: Smite good 1/day
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Statistics:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Str: 15 Dex: 12 Con: 13 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 14
BaseAtk: +1; CMB: +3; CMD: 14
Feats: Power attack
Skills: Intimidate: +6, Ride: +5
SQ: Detect good
Languages: Common
Gear: Spiked scale mail, Greatsword, Backpack, Javelins (3), Trail rations (2 days), Combat trained light horse w/bit n' bridle and military saddle, 25 Gp

I have not included any adjustments for race and favored class. The wealth is standard for a 1st level npc (260 Gp).

Nice!
I'm still worried about how to approach the Loot situation so it's not a super quick gold multiplier for the players.

I think we should either go for a full statblock at each level, or only at certain levels. Summarizing all levels in between will be a formatting hell.

I think all levels need to be covered, and the fact that they werent was one of the main drawbacks of the GMG as far as I'm concerned. So if we can't do summaries of in between levels, than I think we need one of each level. We might be able to fit 2 per page though, one on each side.

I suppose as a PDF it's less of a big deal to have a big pagecount as the bookmarks will make it easy enough to navigate.

I'm thinking maybe one PDF for each class. What do you think?

I'll see about adding a few this weekend.

Nice!

I'm still worried about how to approach the Loot situation so it's not a super quick gold multiplier for the players.

Mortagon wrote:

I think we should either go for a full statblock at each level, or only at certain levels. Summarizing all levels in between will be a formatting hell.

I think all levels need to be covered, and the fact that they werent was one of the main drawbacks of the GMG as far as I'm concerned. So if we can't do summaries of in between levels, than I think we need one of each level. We might be able to fit 2 per page though, one on each side.

I suppose as a PDF it's less of a big deal to have a big pagecount as the bookmarks will make it easy enough to navigate.

I'm thinking maybe one PDF for each class. What do you think?

I'll see about adding a few this weekend.

I like the idea of one class per pdf. How shall we do it with multiclassed npc's and npc's with archetypes however?

I was thinking of stating up the anti-paladin for further levels. Since I already have the draft for a 1st level one it is easy to build on. I will post as soon as I progress.

However, I'd also suggest that statblocks for "BBEG" type character should use something akin to WBL or WBL-minus-1 rather than suggested wealth for NPCs. In my experience, the NPC wealth guidelines are great for mooks, but dramatically under-equip an enemy who is supposed to be a credible threat by itself and/or only a handful of support.

Here's the problem with that approach. It leads to rapid wealth expansion for the PC's If you need to build up the "threat level" of an NPC, you need to do it in ways that don't inflate the treasure haul. And quite frankly, I'm not very fond of the single baddie vs the party approach.

I miscalculated the antipaladins wealth, since he is a heroic class he should have 130 more GP's worth of gear. Here is an updated version:

Antipaladin level 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Init: +1; Senses: Detect good; Perception: -1;
Aura: Aura of evil
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defense:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
AC: 16; touch: 11,flat-footed: 15 (+5 armor, +1 dex)
hp: 11 (1 hd; 1d10+1)
Fort: +3 Ref: +1 Will: +1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Offense:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed: 20 ft.
Melee: Greatsword +3 (2d6+3/19-20)
Ranged: Javelin +2 (1d6+2)
Space: 5 ft.; Reach: 5 ft.
Special attacks: Smite good 1/day
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Statistics:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Str: 15 Dex: 12 Con: 13 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 14
BaseAtk: +1; CMB: +3; CMD: 14
Feats: Power attack
Skills: Intimidate: +6, Ride: +5
SQ: Detect good
Languages: Common
Gear: Spiked scale mail, Greatsword, Backpack,Javelins (3),Trail rations (2 days), Combat trained light horse w/bit n' bridle and military saddle, Potion of cure light wounds (3), 5 Gp

I'm still worried about how to approach the Loot situation so it's not a super quick gold multiplier for the players.

It strikes me that loot is probably the least of the worries. The sort of "no, I want him in half plate" is probably the easiest thing to change, up there with "yes, but she should have a Everlasting Bow." The goal isn't to remove all work, but to cut out the most cumbersome.

Ergo, I think that items should be relatively discretionary at the creator level, basically with the goal of giving a NPC the items necessary for Minimum Combat Effectiveness. The various wealth calculations can serve as rough guideposts.

If the project were more concept-focused, I'd think differently, but at this level I don't.

Darkholme wrote:

I'm still worried about how to approach the Loot situation so it's not a super quick gold multiplier for the players.

It strikes me that loot is probably the least of the worries. The sort of "no, I want him in half plate" is probably the easiest thing to change, up there with "yes, but she should have a Everlasting Bow." The goal isn't to remove all work, but to cut out the most cumbersome.

Ergo, I think that items should be relatively discretionary at the creator level, basically with the goal of giving a NPC the items necessary for Minimum Combat Effectiveness. The various wealth calculations can serve as rough guideposts.

If the project were more concept-focused, I'd think differently, but at this level I don't.

This sounds about right to me.

Also, great idea for a project. Thanks, you guys.

More statblocks:

Level 4 and 5

If I might offer an alternative suggestion:

NPCs usually come in various flavors and roles - one of the things I liked about the Gamemastery guide was how it had sets of NPCs broken out by themes and arranged by challenge ratings. I think something like that could be expanded greatly so that you could have a series of "Themed" books. For instance, the one that comes to mind most easily: a book of military-themed NPCs. It would have a series of NPCs, all at different CRs, that make up the hierarchy of an army: starting with CR 1 and 2 common soldiers, CR 3 to 5 Seargeants or Lieutenants, CR 6 to 9 Captains, etc - on up the chain, including cavalry, scouts, and specialists of various kinds, all the way up to CR 20 Warlords. The book would contains complete military NPCs for several factions: basic human kingdom, elven and dwarven armies, orc hordes, evil coalition armies, etc. They wouldn't all be fighters - some might be battle mages or military clerics, paladins, ranger scouts, etc.

The next book could be "arcane colleges" or something, just arcanists of various kinds and CRs, and another of Divine characters dealing with various religious hierarchies. Then there's would be city or urban books, etc.

Lot of work - don't know if it would be worth it.

If I might offer an alternative suggestion:

NPCs usually come in various flavors and roles - one of the things I liked about the Gamemastery guide was how it had sets of NPCs broken out by themes and arranged by challenge ratings. I think something like that could be expanded greatly so that you could have a series of "Themed" books. For instance, the one that comes to mind most easily: a book of military-themed NPCs. It would have a series of NPCs, all at different CRs, that make up the hierarchy of an army: starting with CR 1 and 2 common soldiers, CR 3 to 5 Seargeants or Lieutenants, CR 6 to 9 Captains, etc - on up the chain, including cavalry, scouts, and specialists of various kinds, all the way up to CR 20 Warlords. The book would contains complete military NPCs for several factions: basic human kingdom, elven and dwarven armies, orc hordes, evil coalition armies, etc. They wouldn't all be fighters - some might be battle mages or military clerics, paladins, ranger scouts, etc.

The next book could be "arcane colleges" or something, just arcanists of various kinds and CRs, and another of Divine characters dealing with various religious hierarchies. Then there's would be city or urban books, etc.

Lot of work - don't know if it would be worth it.

I don't mind the idea of grouping thematically instead of by class, but they definitely need to be listed by build, not by CR. Either by class or by theme could work, and I'm open to suggestions on the matter.

Here's a link to the blackguard Mortagon Built. Just compiled, not touched up too much.

I agree with J.S. Though. we don't want them to have "suggested NPC Wealth" so much as "the bare minimum for them to be of the appropriate challenge rating" (put their numbers in the appropriate ranges on the monster creation chart). If the DM wants to award extra treasure they can always heap more on to make the NPC more unique.

I'd say that Ideally, they'd have an amount in gold equal to what their CR is worth as the base amount.

Level 6 and 7

I did a couple of errors on the level 7 antipaladin; hit points should be 57 (7 hd;7d10+14), Fiendish boon should be summon

monster IV.

Level 8 and 9

Mort, a few things I noticed, other than the fact that it's a cool antipaladin.

- Total value of treasure would be very handy
- Could you make them self contained? Including the relevant feats/spells/abilities so that the GM doesnt have to reference anything to use your dude?
- Is there anything you use from an AP or small splat? Could you list what book they come from?

~DH

P.S. This upcoming week is reading week, so I'm goign to see what I can do about adding an NPC or two.

Mort, could you include the amount of gold worth of gear that the paladin has somewhere for each one?

I use the table on page 454 of the core rulebook. For the antipaladin i used the heroic level. I just used the total number of gold and ignored the suggested amount for weapons, protection etc. since all characters will have different needs when it comes to gear. For future builds I will include the total amount in the writeups.

Darkholme wrote:

Mort, could you include the amount of gold worth of gear that the paladin has somewhere for each one?

I use the table on page 454 of the core rulebook. For the antipaladin i used the heroic level. I just used the total number of gold and ignored the suggested amount for weapons, protection etc. since all characters will have different needs when it comes to gear. For future builds I will include the total amount in the writeups.

Ninja'd before I updated my post.

I added your new antipaladin levels to the post.

I need to look into one of those OGL Pages and start figuring out how to include credits:

How do you want me to do credits? Put your name next to your build, or a big sheet of credits at the end? Am I using a real name or is Mortagon good enough?

Nice!

I'm still worried about how to approach the Loot situation so it's not a super quick gold multiplier for the players.

Mortagon wrote:

I think we should either go for a full statblock at each level, or only at certain levels. Summarizing all levels in between will be a formatting hell.

I think all levels need to be covered, and the fact that they werent was one of the main drawbacks of the GMG as far as I'm concerned. So if we can't do summaries of in between levels, than I think we need one of each level. We might be able to fit 2 per page though, one on each side.

I suppose as a PDF it's less of a big deal to have a big pagecount as the bookmarks will make it easy enough to navigate.

I'm thinking maybe one PDF for each class. What do you think?

I'll see about adding a few this weekend.

Not everything changes upon a level. Gear is only going to increase at certain levels, realistically. Abilities only increase every 4. Feats at every other. Just indicate what to add when.

Also, I'm having a problem logically reconciling "no races."

Not everything changes upon a level. Gear is only going to increase at certain levels, realistically. Abilities only increase every 4. Feats at every other. Just indicate what to add when.

Also, I'm having a problem logically reconciling "no races."

The point of "No Races" is I can take a given NPC, and make him whatever race I choose, and just apply the racial mods, as opposed to having to subtract the racial mods of one race and then add the ones I want.

It's not so much for "So I have a game tomorrow night" as much as "So they just picked a fight with a 6th level ranger; do I have one of those? Yes I do! I'll use this one, and just give him his racial modifiers!" Level 6 NPC in 30 seconds.

I'm thinking that we should also do a PDF for races. List everything the racial modifiers affect, and just tell them how to adjust their rolls for the characters, and the hitpoints, and whatnot. Then we can include different favored class bonuses and they can just pick a set of favored class bonuses.

So Race + Racial Favored Class Bonuses + Class = NPC. Pile on some additional Gear as desired.

The point of "No Races" is I can take a given NPC, and make him whatever race I choose, and just apply the racial mods, as opposed to having to subtract the racial mods of one race and then add the ones I want.

It's not so much for "So I have a game tomorrow night" as much as "So they just picked a fight with a 6th level ranger; do I have one of those? Yes I do! I'll use this one, and just give him his racial modifiers!" Level 6 NPC in 30 seconds.

Then you might want to add a list of suggested first level bonus feats for humans in order to trim that down.

If I might offer an alternative suggestion:

NPCs usually come in various flavors and roles...

When I first read Darkholme's list, that was my first thought. After all, in terms of play, I tend to think "I need one of the duke's private guard," rather than "I need a 7th level Human Fighter." However, on second thought, I think that breaking it down by class and walking each up the ladder, so to speak, is a better call. First, it's a lot simpler, and we don't spend time arguing over the appropriate CR for a corporal...not to mention that, depending on the DM and world, that's bound to vary.

That so, I do think an interesting next step would be starting with concept, and creating characters at different CR segments. That's harder - it doesn't imply linear progression (i.e. multi-classing/PrCs) and therein specific equipment can be highly particularized - but equally it will turn out really interesting to see what people do.

Wolfsnap wrote:

If I might offer an alternative suggestion:

NPCs usually come in various flavors and roles...

When I first read Darkholme's list, that was my first thought. After all, in terms of play, I tend to think "I need one of the duke's private guard," rather than "I need a 7th level Human Fighter." However, on second thought, I think that breaking it down by class and walking each up the ladder, so to speak, is a better call. First, it's a lot simpler, and we don't spend time arguing over the appropriate CR for a corporal...not to mention that, depending on the DM and world, that's bound to vary.

That so, I do think an interesting next step would be starting with concept, and creating characters at different CR segments. That's harder - it doesn't imply linear progression (i.e. multi-classing/PrCs) and therein specific equipment can be highly particularized - but equally it will turn out really interesting to see what people do.

Well, I mentioned one "Book" per class, right? We could always do a multiclass book as well.

Mortagon: The More I think about it, the more I think the guide numbers on page 454 are too high.

Not only are they higher than teasure by CR, they don't really leave any wiggle room for the GM to give them a really nice item if appropriate.

Then you might want to add a list of suggested first level bonus feats for humans in order to trim that down.

I like that Idea. So for each build, include some suggestions as to things like:

Further convolution/complication...
The wealth by CR in Core (p.399) contradicts the wealth by CR in the bestiary (p.294)...

OGLness: Are we able to use any non-OGL PFRPG Stuff? My guess would be no, but maybe it's different for a fan-based free community project.
Could someone fill me in on that? Can rovagug be mentioned for example? are there any feats/class abilities/gear we can't use?

Further convolution/complication...

The wealth by CR in Core (p.399) contradicts the wealth by CR in the bestiary (p.294)...

Nevermind, I wasn't looking closely enough.

Mortagon wrote:

Darkholme wrote:

Mort, could you include the amount of gold worth of gear that the paladin has somewhere for each one?

I use the table on page 454 of the core rulebook. For the antipaladin i used the heroic level. I just used the total number of gold and ignored the suggested amount for weapons, protection etc. since all characters will have different needs when it comes to gear. For future builds I will include the total amount in the writeups.

Ninja'd before I updated my post.

I added your new antipaladin levels to the post.

I need to look into one of those OGL Pages and start figuring out how to include credits:

How do you want me to do credits? Put your name next to your build, or a big sheet of credits at the end? Am I using a real name or is Mortagon good enough?

Mortagon from the Paizo boards is just fine :)

Mortagon: The More I think about it, the more I think the guide numbers on page 454 are too high.

I think we should stick with the wealth per level, people can always add or remove items if they want.

Not only are they higher than teasure by CR, they don't really leave any wiggle room for the GM to give them a really nice item if appropriate.OGLness: Are we able to use any non-OGL PFRPG Stuff? My guess would be no, but...

Rovagug is in the core book under the cleric, but I guess it's easy to drop the "Rovagug" name and just write unholy symbol.

Cartigan wrote:

Then you might want to add a list of suggested first level bonus feats for humans in order to trim that down.

I like that Idea. So for each build, include some suggestions as to things like:
- If you get bonus feats from a race, suggestions on what to take
- If you get bonus skills from a race, suggestions on what to take.
- Favored Class suggestions (If favored class, We suggest giving these skills, or these bonus class abilities if the race permits them)

I guess I can add some notes on what you may choose with certain races etc. Maybe even suggested feats and gear for other builds etc. ?

I like that Idea. So for each build, include some suggestions as to things like:
- If you get bonus feats from a race, suggestions on what to take
- If you get bonus skills from a race, suggestions on what to take.
- Favored Class suggestions (If favored class, We suggest giving these skills, or these bonus class abilities if the race permits them)

I thought about those but it really isn't as difficult as feats. I generate a 10th level character, but I have to look through all the feats, sort the ones that are able to be taken at 1st level (no BAB), and then try to pick those. It's a lot more work. So that's obviously the major one if you want a drop in class.

List of suggested options and racial modifications to the antipaladin posted above:

I think we should stick with the wealth per level, people can always add or remove items if they want.

I was thinking we should go with the minimum possible loot where they meet the Monster Stats by CR; adding new gear is easier to do than figuring out what to take away.

I like the suggestions you came up with.

Mortagon wrote:

I think we should stick with the wealth per level, people can always add or remove items if they want.

I was thinking we should go with the minimum possible loot where they meet the Monster Stats by CR; adding new gear is easier to do than figuring out what to take away.

I like the suggestions you came up with.

The loot per CR table is mostly intended for monsters which usually aren't as gear reliant as npc's. I think the table on page 454 is just about right when it comes to what you would expect an npc to have. Remember that non-heroic npc's get less wealth per level as well.

This table is what is being used for official npc's like those in the GMG as well and it will be balanced for an average Pathfinder game.

The loot per CR table is mostly intended for monsters which usually aren't as gear reliant as npc's. I think the table on page 454 is just about right when it comes to what you would expect an npc to have. Remember that non-heroic npc's get less wealth per level as well.

This table is what is being used for official npc's like those in the GMG as well and it will be balanced for an average Pathfinder game.

I suppose. I was thinking if we go a bit under the suggested wealth, we can have a bit of wiggle room for the GM to give the npc any distinct items the NPC should have.

As for treasure by encounter, having the players go through a Rogue's guild filled entirely with NPCs of the right challenge rating and traps, should be an option, for example, and hopefully without the character going to multiples of times above their Wealth by level.

Hmm.
Here

This just an awesome suggestion, and I hereby endorse it heavily.

I think consumeables could be quite useful to avoid giving the party too many useful permanent items, or too much wealth.

Hmm.

Here

This just an awesome suggestion, and I hereby endorse it heavily.

I think consumeables could be quite useful to avoid giving the party too many useful permanent items, or too much wealth.

I don't know if you have noticed, but I have tried to give the antipaladin some consumables. Anyway the gear is only meant as an example and I use the wealth per level table because this is the assumed value of gear for a standard game. I first and foremost choose the gear I mean the npc need as a minimum to work effectively in his role. For warrior type this will often be of a higher value when it comes to permanent items due to armor and weapons being pretty expensive.

Level 10 and 11

I just figured I'd chime in that nonheroic stats are generated with 3 point buy, and heroic use 15 point buy. For those who want to make NPCs that aren't the same 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.

I just figured I'd chime in that nonheroic stats are generated with 3 point buy, and heroic use 15 point buy. For those who want to make NPCs that aren't the same 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.

Yes, but these stats are better suited for non-heroic classes though like warriors and commoners.

Cartigan wrote:

Then you might want to add a list of suggested first level bonus feats for humans in order to trim that down.

I like that Idea. So for each build, include some suggestions as to things like:

- If you get bonus feats from a race, suggestions on what to take
- If you get bonus skills from a race, suggestions on what to take.
- Favored Class suggestions (If favored class, We suggest giving these skills, or these bonus class abilities if the race permits them)

I think these lists necessarily change according to the NPC's role, even on an identical build.

Very interesting thread. I'm working (half-heartedly) on an NPC "book" using the NPC classes to create roles and give ready to play stats at every level. I've been stuck on some of the mechanical/style designs (like actual page layouts), so this thread is very helpful to me in those areas.

I think that this is a great idea and If I did not have Hero labs I would actually be using some of the NPC's from here a lot more.

Now the problem I have is the "No Races" thing. I know it has been mentioned that include a "Bonus feat by race" addition to the NPC stat block but there is more to it then just a bonus feat or two. If this is to make the DM's life easier and to just drop it in to a game so to speak. Then there are other things to consider like the Dwarven +'s to poison saves and bonuses to armor class vs giants and the like. All the racial bonuses and if using the Advanced Players Guide then you have to include the racial archtypes too.

This would be more then just dropping it in to a game then.

I think that this is a great idea and If I did not have Hero labs I would actually be using some of the NPC's from here a lot more.

Now the problem I have is the "No Races" thing. I know it has been mentioned that include a "Bonus feat by race" addition to the NPC stat block but there is more to it then just a bonus feat or two. If this is to make the DM's life easier and to just drop it in to a game so to speak. Then there are other things to consider like the Dwarven +'s to poison saves and bonuses to armor class vs giants and the like. All the racial bonuses and if using the Advanced Players Guide then you have to include the racial archtypes too.

This would be more then just dropping it in to a game then.

All the racial stuff aside from feats is minimal work. Of course it's more than "dropping it in the game" but it isn't going to make a large dent.

If you wanted a true pick up and drop in, of course you have to full build out including races from the start.

Ashiel wrote:

I just figured I'd chime in that nonheroic stats are generated with 3 point buy, and heroic use 15 point buy. For those who want to make NPCs that aren't the same 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.

Yes, but these stats are better suited for non-heroic classes though like warriors and commoners.

As I said. 3 PB for nonheroic NPCs and 15 PB for heroic classes.

Deanoth wrote:

I think that this is a great idea and If I did not have Hero labs I would actually be using some of the NPC's from here a lot more.

Now the problem I have is the "No Races" thing. I know it has been mentioned that include a "Bonus feat by race" addition to the NPC stat block but there is more to it then just a bonus feat or two. If this is to make the DM's life easier and to just drop it in to a game so to speak. Then there are other things to consider like the Dwarven +'s to poison saves and bonuses to armor class vs giants and the like. All the racial bonuses and if using the Advanced Players Guide then you have to include the racial archtypes too.

This would be more then just dropping it in to a game then.

All the racial stuff aside from feats is minimal work. Of course it's more than "dropping it in the game" but it isn't going to make a large dent.

If you wanted a true pick up and drop in, of course you have to full build out including races from the start.

But if we were to do that we'd need 8+ versions of Each build, and I've been in few games where we're restricted to PFCore Races, I've never run one of that kind, so the ability to sub-in builds of only those races would lower the utility of such a tool (to me at least).

Mortagon wrote:

Ashiel wrote:

I just figured I'd chime in that nonheroic stats are generated with 3 point buy, and heroic use 15 point buy. For those who want to make NPCs that aren't the same 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.

Yes, but these stats are better suited for non-heroic classes though like warriors and commoners.

As I said. 3 PB for nonheroic NPCs and 15 PB for heroic classes.

Oh sorry, misread your post there. We are in agreement :)

Kay, here's the compilation so far. It's all of Mortagon's Antipaladin stuff.

It's very much a WIP, but this should give you guys a better idea of where I see this going.

I put it in the description of a list. This way, if a link dies, or a file gets updated, you'll have the link to the newest one.

Generic NPC Links

Lemme know what you think of how I've been putting this together, and feel free to contribute an NPC or give suggestions.

[Edit]Also, Kudos to Mortagon on the Antipaladin. :)

Kay, here's the compilation so far. It's all of Mortagon's Antipaladin stuff.

It's very much a WIP, but this should give you guys a better idea of where I see this going.

I put it in the description of a list. This way, if a link dies, or a file gets updated, you'll have the link to the newest one.

Generic NPC Links

Lemme know what you think of how I've been putting this together, and feel free to contribute an NPC or give suggestions.

[Edit]Also, Kudos to Mortagon on the Antipaladin. :)

Thank you :)

I like it so far, but I am hoping someone else will start posting more npc's soon, there's only so much one can do alone ;)

I will hopefully have the rest of the antipaladin levels posted soon, then I was thinking about taking on the alchemist (I was planning on doing the classes alphabetically, but forgot about the alchemist *lol*)

Edit: Also if you see any glaring errors in what I have posted so far, please feel free to fix them.

Darkholme wrote:

I was planning on doing the classes alphabetically, but forgot about the alchemist

Awesome. I've been liking your build so far, though as an "Alternate Class", the Antipaladin is a Paladin archetype, and not a class on its own (which is why I listed it under Paladin). :)

Mortagon wrote:

Darkholme wrote:

I was planning on doing the classes alphabetically, but forgot about the alchemist

Awesome. I've been liking your build so far, though as an "Alternate Class", the Antipaladin is a Paladin archetype, and not a class on its own (which is why I listed it under Paladin). :)

True enough ;)