Lack of Diplomacy and 7-8 Cha are faction mission killers

[Helaman]

Much hailarity had by all as I was the only one who had put points in Diplomacy and one of the 3 of the total 7 players who DIDN'T have a negative Cha (2 guys had 8 Cha and 2 had 7). We barely made a Diplomacy based faction mission with untrained and crippled aid failing one after another... Often comically so.

Like wands of CLW are seen as nice to have as a "team Player", please also consider your character is responsible for more than dealing damage and sink a few points in Diplomacy so at the least you can help out with the social stuff.

Some of the DC's are stupid hard even at low tiers and it seems assumed that the players will be using aid another... Otherwise chances are against you.

[Chris Mortika]

There are some characters, who aren't much interested in "talky" faction missions. That's okay, the Society is a big tent, and grim loners who spend every waking hour poring over traps and ancient maps have their place, too.

There are some players who feel that faction missions are nice, but the don't matter as much if you're getting your arms chewed off by ghouls, and wouldn't an extra point in Strength or Constitution have been a nice idea? They're playing the game they want to play it, and that's okay, too.

[TetsujinOni]

If you can't succeed at your faction mission alone, that's OK. No one at the table is obligated to help you with it at all.

It's great gravy if they are willing, and able, and don't autofail you your mission for exposing the task.

For that matter, I've noticed at least two faction missions in year 3 that have detrimental effects on other sources of prestige in the adventure. There may be more that didn't leap out at me. (One is quite a bit more blatant than the other, but there's some definite potential for friction).

[Helaman]

TetsujinOni wrote:

If you can't succeed at your faction mission alone, that's OK. No one at the table is obligated to help you with it at all.

it's also the case I'm not obligated to heal or even assist you as well but it's considered bad form when I don't.

It's a bit crummy that DC25 faction missions exist at low tier if the expection isn't collaborative.

[nosig]

I have a PC that regularly hands the following to the low CHA types at her table.

Chaliaxian agreement:

Contract offer:
During the course of our upcoming mission, if at any time
you find yourself in need of my special talents used in a discrete
fashion, you may feel free to request that I fulfill some task for
you. No questions asked. I am quite good with influencing
people, and I do have many other skills that would be at your
disposal. And I am always discrete.

In return, I would like to think I could call on you at some
point to assist me with a small task, something that I feel I am
unable to do on my own. And I am sure I could also rely on
you to be discrete in these matters also.

I would assure you that I would never ask you to do
anything which you would find overtly distasteful. Nothing
to violate any personal code or vows you have.

Signed: Katisha Lee

Sign here:_____________________________________

Though she calls them a Chaliaxian Agreement, she is not that faction (no longer, she faction changed in season 3). I've also started something like it with several of my other characters... but not as formal (her's is a double business card that I actually hand to the PCs & a copy to the Judge).

Just my little way of RPing "Cooperation" with other Pathfinders.

[nosig]

Helaman wrote:

TetsujinOni wrote:

If you can't succeed at your faction mission alone, that's OK. No one at the table is obligated to help you with it at all.

it's also the case I'm not obligated to heal or even assist you as well but it's considered bad form when I don't.

While I realize that some persons still view the game as "us vs. them" in the faction wars, I've not seen that at a table in over a year. Except... nah, he was just a jerk player, being a jerk.

Sometimes the faction missions require they be kept secret - when that happens it's harder to get help. Not impossible, but very hard. I did once offer to help someone and if he'd buy a Memory Lapse scroll I'd use it to blot the memory... It never came up in the game, but he did role play it to the max in a later game. Telling me he owed me a favor, and thanking my PC for, well, you don't remember why, but thanks. It was really funny, esp. as the other players at the table didn't know what was going on...

[TetsujinOni]

Nosig: and that's a great way to play it. It's equally valid, and as far as I can tell should not be considered a form of griefing, to choose not to assist in other characters' faction missions.

Year 3 faction missions are intended to be failed about what, fifty percent of the time if the expected Fame progression is 1.5/scenario?

I do generally cooperate with faction missions, when they are obviously not of the "you fail the mission if anyone outside the faction knows about it" type. I am just having trouble with the characterization of not assisting with a faction mission as the same sort of bad form as, say, not helping the low-STR caster climb out of the trap.

[TwilightKnight]

One of my characters is a diplo-monkey and he takes the faction "competition" very seriously. He does not assist other factions in their missions unless (1) it is one of the rare "joint" missions where our factions are trying to reach the same goal or (2) you manage to convince him (read:bluff) that your intentions are otherwise. He won't actively interfere, and cooperates toward the primary goal, just don't come to him with your Cha-7 character and expect him to complete your faction mission for you.
BTW, his two primary skills are Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and as a Qadiran Cleric of Sarenrae (healbot/buffing), he particularly dislikes Taldor. :-)

[Mergy]

nosig wrote:

I have a PC that regularly hands the following to the low CHA types at her table.

** spoiler omitted **

Though she calls them a Chaliaxian Agreement, she is not that faction (no longer, she faction changed in season 3). I've also started something like it with several of my other characters... but not as formal (her's is a double business card that I actually hand to the PCs & a copy to the Judge).

Just my little way of RPing "Cooperation" with other Pathfinders.

I may just have to steal this.

[nosig]

depends on the character I would guess. Most of my are helpful. If your PC came to mine and said - "I'm looking for a building in this town, something called an XXX" I'd help you much like I'd help Bob find the Post office in down town St. Louis.

My Bard is a little faster on the up-take. She realizes that everyone is doing odd jobs on the way, and she even gets some from Grandmaster Torch, so, on the off chance that her FM will be about hurting people (outside a bedroom) she moves to get allies early. Big smelly introvert with a big sword? Your my kind of guy! Woodsy outdoorsman (or woman), heck, I'll help you out with an odd job - just help me if I need it ok? And after all - she is not harmed in any way by the success or failure of your mission. Well... almost true. If you succed, you'll have more stuff to protect her later.

It's like my Rogue (dip of wizard) shareing his spell book. Next time we play together, you'll have a wider access to spells - and he'll have a better chance of surviving because of it. All it cost me is a little money to maintain - and it generates some good will, which he often needs (having a sorry Charisma - he is a mousy little elf, easily overlooked).

[nosig]

Mergy wrote:

nosig wrote:

I have a PC that regularly hands the following to the low CHA types at her table.

** spoiler omitted **

Though she calls them a Chaliaxian Agreement, she is not that faction (no longer, she faction changed in season 3). I've also started something like it with several of my other characters... but not as formal (her's is a double business card that I actually hand to the PCs & a copy to the Judge).

Just my little way of RPing "Cooperation" with other Pathfinders.

I may just have to steal this.

Please do! I would love to have someone pass one to one of my PCs sometime... I might fall outta my chair laughing though.

Oh, and I pass them out before faction missions are assigned. That way someone is less likely to accuse me of Meta-gaming.

[nosig]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

One of my characters is a diplo-monkey and he takes the faction "competition" very seriously. He does not assist other factions in their missions unless (1) it is one of the rare "joint" missions where our factions are trying to reach the same goal or (2) you manage to convince him (read:bluff) that your intentions are otherwise. He won't actively interfere, and cooperates toward the primary goal, just don't come to him with your Cha-7 character and expect him to complete your faction mission for you.

BTW, his two primary skills are Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and as a Qadiran Cleric of Sarenrae (healbot/buffing), he particularly dislikes Taldor. :-)

so... if my Cheliaxian lady (not her faction, her race) was to ask your cleric for some Knowledge Religion... would you assist her? or if she asked you to come help her while she cuts a private deal, just to watch and make sure the salesman is on the up-and-up (she has a ROTTEN Sense Motive). She would cast Message and would want to to warn her if the guy is lying to her or being dishonest... Would you?

or even more important, would you except a "Chaliaxian Agreement" (see above) from her? A limited use trade agreement my Qadiran friend?

[TwilightKnight]

nosig wrote:

Would you?

It very much depends on the circumstances and how it is role-played. I'm not a douche about it, but he is intelligent and understands the political turmoil within the society. He is always on the lookout for members of other factions trying to use him for their faction to gain an advantage over his own. If he suspects it, he will likely not actively assist you, especially if it seems your little side trek is detracting from getting on with the primary goal.

nosig wrote:

would you except a "Chaliaxian Agreement"

No he wouldn't. The conditions are waay too open ended for his comfort. He was an ambassador (has the trait) before his father was killed and he is very suspicious (got that trait too) of making deals that he will later be required to fulfill. Of course TwilightKnight knows that Nosig has good intentions, but IC, he does not, especially if it references Cheliax, an area known for manipulating their agreements to fit their own machinations.

My paladin, otoh, would happily help anyone with their missions as long as they share a pint of Cayden's finest with him. My barbarian wouldn't care either way and my pirate would likely try to manipulate the deal to his advantage. My tian monk, may or may not enter the agreement. He doesn't full understand the customs of the inner sea.

[nosig]

Let's see...
My Bard is handing out the agreements, and she is less likely to offer one to your Cleric anyway (he already has Cha skills you said, so she'll figure you wouldn't need her help). She has yet to see any real "political turmoil within the society" other than persons fighting amoung themselves (season 3-4 and she's shadow lodge). But heck, she's helpful anyway, that's why she drops in the "I would never ask you to do anything which you would find overtly distasteful. Nothing to violate any personal code or vows you have." and several persons have asked about that. Yes, your PC would be the judge of what he/she finds "overtly distasteful". so they always have an out. (Not that she ever uses Bluff against another PC, but she would have a 34 on a T10 - and yes, she can alway T10 on bluff, even in combat. So she might conceal her reasons for asking... often in a shopping trip.).

My Cleric is wise but not real bright. Kind of like Forrest Gump. But he is very helpful (for a dwarf), and if you told him it was "an affair of the heart" you'd have him hook line and sinker.

My Trapsmith would just figure it's another part of the job. Mostly he doesn't pay much attention to the actual mission, letting other people handle those details. Tell him what he needs to do. But he's Qadirian so it wouldn't come up with your Cleric (though he is an athiest), we'd have the same faction mission.

My other PCs would be basicly like the ones above, with my knifemaster only really interested if it was a skill challange.

[TwilightKnight]

Nosig, I think our characters could all find some level of cooperation even if that didn't extend to faction missions. My cleric does not typically follow the standard bluff vs. sense motive unless he has no other choice. He's more of the school of disbelieving everyone unless they prove their trustworthiness over a period of time, especially those in positions of power. He's even dis-illusioned with his own religion to some extent. Not all members of the clergy have always done the right thing after all. He swears allegiance to Sarenrae, not necessarily to the church.

Season 2 Meta-plot spoiler:

He still has some reservations towards Aaqir al'Hakam since the last faction head (Pasha Muhlia Al-Jakri) turned out to be an assassin and bailed on the faction for her own personal goals.

[nosig]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Nosig, I think our characters could all find some level of cooperation even if that didn't extend to faction missions. My cleric does not typically follow the standard bluff vs. sense motive unless he has no other choice. He's more of the school of disbelieving everyone unless they prove their trustworthiness over a period of time, especially those in positions of power. He's even dis-illusioned with his own religion to some extent. Not all members of the clergy have always done the right thing after all. He swears allegiance to Sarenrae, not necessarily to the church.

** spoiler omitted **

(IC)Darling, you should take a look at the stated goals of each faction closer. The only one in it truely for for the best of the Society and its members is the Shadow Lodge. The only one truely on every agents side? That's why I foster cooperation with my fellow Society members. Together we can work wonders. LOL! Heck, perhaps even survive another Season! Any time you need help, in anything, all you have to do is ask."

[Helaman]

Look, I accept that faction missions may clash, in that case cool but with some DC's being retarded hard for 1-2 it seems that that the system assumes aid another etc. If with a +8 you will not succeed 70% of the time on your own then it's the same odds as a crap shoot... For a character with a +5/6? not much of a chance at all... That's not even approaching allowing for 1.5 fame average.

Leaving the DC argument aside, PFS games seem to be written for collaborative play and to encourage skill diversity and not just a one trick pony.

At the end of the day you can choose not to help, I suppose or play subhuman levels of intelligence and charisma but it won't win you any brownie points if you can't or won't help others. That leads to bad will, which leads to less fun which is opposite of the real goal: for everyone to have fun.

[Michael Foster 989]

I will always help anyone else with their faction missions but when I say help I mean help, I wont do it for you as its your mission not mine so you will be the primary for any skill rolls needed, so if its a diplomacy skill check I will aid another to give you +2 but if you dont provide the initial role and the roleplaying part of it thats your problem not mine.

I mean things like perception/sense motive I will make to help people assuming they ask me to (if you dont ask my character to look for something I wont roll perception/sense motive as I have no reason to do so).

Pretty much for your missions you are the primary and I can be a secondary if you need it but thats as far as I will go (barring skills the player completely lacks those I have rolled for people before such as knowledge skills).

Its much like when I tried to talk our way out of the last fight in an adventure I ended up making 3 knowledge checks (1 local about the region we where in, 2 geography for nearby city names one for us to have been soldiers at and one to figure out the NPC was testing me by naming a city in a different country), 2 diplomacy checks (first to convince them that we were officers, and the last which I failed to make was to convince them to open the gate against orders), 1 bluff check (when I lied to the npc about our reasons). As I was considered the "Captain" I couldnt look to the squad (my party) for help (as such would have given away our ruse) and thus all the checks came down to my character

All in all with the back and forth between me and the GM some of which being "but we have no soldiers assigned there" from the NPC with me replying "well we dont anymore as my squad is here now" it was one of the more fun encounters my party had been part of in a PFS game. I am a combat focused player (all my characters are very strong combatants), but I never neglect int/cha skills because using them can generate as much fun and tension as the most closely fought battle (even if you fail and end up fighting in the end)

[0gre]

I have a character who has rolled a negative 2 on a diplomacy roll, you learn to cooperate with others or deal with missing some faction missions.

The missions are supposed* to have a 50% success rate so missing some is expected.

*:

I know actual is more like 85-95% success but.... 50% is the expectation

[Thod]

Low Cha can be a burden for the whole group. I remember playing Bloodcove disguise with my half-orc barbarian.

With Cha 12 = diplomacy 1, Intimidate 7 I was the only one who could use intimidation if needed but I wouldn't call him a diplomat.

This is a scenario that really hurts the whole group if you have several Cha gimped characters.

[thenovalord]

It is quite odd that the society will allow any old

anti-social,
dim witted,
low intellect

to join its hallowed ranks!!....just dont be evil...even though at low level a CE character will rarely have an evil aura!!

so yeah, you do have to cooperate with your rivals. Which is correct, because you are pathfinders first, agents for whomever second

[Kyle Baird]

My favorite character is my "faction monkey" Boracle. I built him specifically to complete everyone's faction missions (and annoy BobBob).

Of course some people here would likely call him a useless character or such since his whip does 1d3-3 damage. I find that aid another, bardic performance, and a few well placed spells more than make up for a lack of damage (assuming at least someone at the table is capable of swinging a sword with competence).

[nosig]

I always check when I first sit at a table to see who is there.
Do we have a healer?
Do we have a Melee dude?
Do we have a Max Damage monkey?
Do we have a Trapsmith? (for locks)
Do we have a Face?

if there is no face - I'll pull one out. I used to not worry about the Max Damage guy, but I've resently started to hit tables where we don't have one. It's a shock to me, but it looks like I'll have to build one - just to have a DPR specialist available for when no one runs one.

With Cooperation amoung Pathfinders - we need to remember we are a team. Doing it all can work... but sometimes having a specialist available is good too.

[Kyle Baird]

nosig wrote:

sometimes having a specialist available is good too.

Yeah, you never know when you'll need to hit a knowledge check of 60! ;-)

[Muninn]

I really like having the glory cleric domain 1st level ability for faction missions.

Touch of Glory:

Touch of Glory (Sp): You can cause your hand to shimmer with divine radiance, allowing you to touch a creature as a standard action and give it a bonus equal to your cleric level on a single Charisma-based skill check or Charisma ability check. This ability lasts for 1 hour or until the creature touched elects to apply the bonus to a roll. You can use this ability to grant the bonus a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Would you like my god's help convincing that guard to help you? Just as long as you return the favor later...

[nosig]

Kyle Baird wrote:

nosig wrote:

sometimes having a specialist available is good too.

Yeah, you never know when you'll need to hit a knowledge check of 60! ;-)

I saw a 3rd level dwarven druid open a DC 60 Disable Device roll to get thru a gate - it did take a Momentary Savant Boon to pull it off. But, heck, it was cool! in the middle of a Specieal at that, so he "showed up"the Tier 10-11 table...

[Helaman]

nosig wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

nosig wrote:

sometimes having a specialist available is good too.

Yeah, you never know when you'll need to hit a knowledge check of 60! ;-)

I saw a 3rd level dwarven druid open a DC 60 Disable Device roll to get thru a gate - it did take a Momentary Savant Boon to pull it off. But, heck, it was cool! in the middle of a Specieal at that, so he "showed up"the Tier 10-11 table...

Forget the fact that it was at a Tier 10-11 table or that it was a 3rd level character who did it.

Are the writers insane? DC60?!?!

[nosig]

Helaman wrote:

nosig wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

nosig wrote:

sometimes having a specialist available is good too.

Yeah, you never know when you'll need to hit a knowledge check of 60! ;-)

I saw a 3rd level dwarven druid open a DC 60 Disable Device roll to get thru a gate - it did take a Momentary Savant Boon to pull it off. But, heck, it was cool! in the middle of a Specieal at that, so he "showed up"the Tier 10-11 table...

Forget the fact that it was at a Tier 10-11 table or that it was a 3rd level character who did it.

Are the writers insane? DC60?!?!

there are ways around the door. Basicly you are expected to fly over, or climb over the wall. Or do some other thing that players are apt to do. and rather than say... "the players can't pick the lock or batter the door down" the author gives stats that are "insane"... and the players just waltz right thru. It game the tier 1-2 table something to cheer over - and we didn't have to wait for one of the high level PCs to drop us a rope. Like I said. It was cool!

[The black raven]

Based on what I read on these boards, I offered my PC's skills to other players to help them complete their faction missions if need be.

Interestingly enough, this proposal seemed mostly met with suspicion, or even paranoia. Apparently, my fellow players seemed to believe that only members of a given faction should have anything to do with said faction's missions.

[Kyle Baird]

Helaman wrote:

Are the writers insane?

Yes.

[Snorter]

The black raven wrote:

Based on what I read on these boards, I offered my PC's skills to other players to help them complete their faction missions if need be.

Interestingly enough, this proposal seemed mostly met with suspicion, or even paranoia. Apparently, my fellow players seemed to believe that only members of a given faction should have anything to do with said faction's missions.

I think the problem is in breaking the fourth wall, in referring directly to their faction missions.

While it's rumoured that the factions exist, it's extremely bad form to open a conversation about them, and insinuate that the other person is a member of one of those factions.

You're effectively calling them a spy, a traitor and a liar. And implying that you expect them to perform some selfish action during the coming mission, which will hurt your people. And that, not only are you okay with this, you'll help them?

They can't help but wonder "Who is this guy? Does he think I'm that stupid?".

By all means, offer to aid them. But don't mention the factions at all. This allows them some measure of plausible deniability, and allows them to return the favour, helping you with your 'little job' with a clear conscience.

[Mergy]

I have had players in character ask the Venture Captain giving them the mission about factions and faction missions, to which I've replied that I didn't know what they were talking about and that the Pathfinder Society was one unified group.

[Steel_Wind]

Mergy wrote:

I have had players in character ask the Venture Captain giving them the mission about factions and faction missions, to which I've replied that I didn't know what they were talking about and that the Pathfinder Society was one unified group.

+1 to you for that.

[Helaman]

Mergy wrote:

I have had players in character ask the Venture Captain giving them the mission about factions and faction missions, to which I've replied that I didn't know what they were talking about and that the Pathfinder Society was one unified group.

LOL - Am so using that... but 'little jobs', thats ok.

[Jason S]

Helaman wrote:

Much hailarity had by all as I was the only one who had put points in Diplomacy and one of the 3 of the total 7 players who DIDN'T have a negative Cha (2 guys had 8 Cha and 2 had 7). We barely made a Diplomacy based faction mission with untrained and crippled aid failing one after another... Often comically so.

I see what you mean, but Diplomacy isn’t a class skill for everyone. When you have a class that gets only 2 skill points per level, you’re not human, and the skill isn’t a class skill, it doesn’t really make that much sense to put points into Diplomacy. Makes more sense to focus on skills you use each and every session (PERCEPTION, Acrobatics, etc) or that are class skills (Climb, Swim, K-Local, etc).

Lack of Swim skill can kill you if you don’t have at least 1 rank in it and you’re wearing armor. That’s what I worry about when I have a low level PC with armor on.

I see your point though, but I think almost all PCs with Diplomacy as a class skill put at least 1 point into it.

Regarding faction missions, everyone has a role to play, DPR classes help you get through the scenario, skill classes usually help everyone with faction missions.

Although no one is obligated to help you, I’ve rarely seen anyone not attempt to help if asked, unless it’s the Cheliax/Andoran rivalry. All 6 of my PCs will help you if asked. The degree of help will depend on the PCs skill of course.

[TetsujinOni]

nosig wrote:

I always check when I first sit at a table to see who is there.

Do we have a healer?
Do we have a Melee dude?
Do we have a Max Damage monkey?
Do we have a Trapsmith? (for locks)
Do we have a Face?

if there is no face - I'll pull one out. I used to not worry about the Max Damage guy, but I've resently started to hit tables where we don't have one. It's a shock to me, but it looks like I'll have to build one - just to have a DPR specialist available for when no one runs one.

With Cooperation amoung Pathfinders - we need to remember we are a team. Doing it all can work... but sometimes having a specialist available is good too.

The interesting thing is just how optimized for the job do you expect the characters with which these roles need to be filled to be, in order to feel adequately covered?

[Snorter]

I will happily help another player complete their mission, especially if they are a new, inexperienced player, and I want them to have a positive experience at a Con. That happened last July, the player next to me was asking for help with her PC, and let slip she worked for Cheliax. I joked "Oh, man! Don't tell me that! We're total opposites!", and asked her not to tell me her mission. I still looked out for her, and made sure she came through the scenario alive, and kept my eyes open for likely 'Evil Empire' McGuffins, eventually finding some lab, which just screamed out 'bonus mission', and told her, "I think you want to have a look in there...".

So, if I sound like a hardass, re faction rivalry, I'm not. I may give some verbal banter, if I think the player is up for it, but won't spill over into Pvp.

But please, please, make an effort to read your mission, think about it, think how it looks to an outsider, think how it affects the other factions, think how you're going to sell it to the rest of the party.

If you tell me you're a member of a rival faction, and you want me to do something that, quite plainly, is going to work against my interests, don't be surprised, or get huffy, or go crying to a VC, if I tell you to go jump in a lake.

[Jiggy]

Jason S wrote:

Lack of Swim skill can kill you if you don’t have at least 1 rank in it and you’re wearing armor. That’s what I worry about when I have a low level PC with armor on.

I'm terrified of the idea of making a character who couldn't swim in rough water with a T10. But I'm paranoid like that. ;)