RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Good morning!
Reading in the Dragon Empires product thread made me want to talk about how people design feats to be limited in levels.
With my last Donna's Dozen, I looked at feats and how I saw them working 'behind the scenes' to limit/control the level in their selection.
As a few examples.
The Kitsune Racial feats require Cha 13 (precident Fox Shape). A Thousand Shades (which allows an improved shape changing) I set with a Will save of +2, to better reflect being able to manipulate the innate energies. (It also restricts the feat to Rogue types to 7th level as a result. Other classes can get it earlier of course) Bishonen requires ranks in heal (since you're making changes to anatomy, I figure some basic knowlege of the body should be reflected)
The Samsaran racial feats require Intelligence and Wisdom 13*, to reflect their natural stat adjustments.
The Anti-ki feat chain also requires ranks in heal, again to represent knowing how and where to strike.
So what other restrictions, besides bab, do people use?
Personally, Its my philosophy to build the feat pre-req based on
A) What the feat does.
B) The flavor of the feat.
C) Where the feat should go.
The current issue I'm having is the Pre-reqs for the kitsune feats that currently all require BAB in order to take.
While I'm not sure on the specifics (didn't preorder from paizo, but a local store) they are..
Fox Shape - BAB +3
Quick Shape - BAB +6
Pounce - BAB + 10
Out of these, only Pounce sounds combat. (Someone later confirmed that it does in fact have the "combat" tag on it.)
So in other words, the current set up for the feats is Terrible. Low-BAB classes have to wait till level 7 to get fox shape. Level 13 to get quick shape, and they can't get pounce till level 21. Medium BAB classes have to wait till level 5 for fox shape, 9 for swift, and 15 for pounce.
Since Fox Shape/Quick Shape have nothing apparent to do with combat, BAB as a requirement does not fit. There is no apparent flavor to tie shifting into a fox with being the snot out of people with sharp sticks. And its not a feat built for a specific class, but a specific race.
So things like BAB is out, Skill ranks are pretty much too. Can't use class features, and can't use caster level. None of the mechanics of classes can apply to this, they are racial feats.
So this posses a problem. How do you make a feat that is not suppose to be taken at first level? Well there is the method done with half-orcs, where you use up all earlier slots with other feats. But there is a far better one, One used for the only other racial feats that were specifically designed not to be taken at level 1. Drow feats. Yes, these were made in 3.5 days, but it is the only time that racial feats that were suppose to be taken at later levels were designed before they came up with kitsune feats.
And these feats used Character level. This is because character level is not tied to anything class related. You can have a commoner who could take them.
So I'd replace the BAB requirements on the first two non-combat racial feats with Character Level. Because any kitsune should be able to do these things, and the use of sharp pointy sticks doesn't make one better at it. The Pounce on the other hand, I'd drop its BAB to +7, and add Character level 10. This would allow combat oriented High and Med BAB classes to take it by level 10. Low bab classes could take it at level 15. The Low Bab classes are pretty much automatically balanced with this due to them.. well.. Having a low BAB in the first place. Even if one of them took the feat, just cause, He wouldn't be able to do much with it. It would be like a fighter taking a metamagic feat for a light cantrip.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm not keen on character level feats myself. For fox shape I'd use knowledge (nature) x ranks to 'get in touch ' with their foxy/fey side.
Quick Shape I honestly think doesn't need any prerequisites. Its use is so limited (frees up an action in economy, that's it.)
See, I still find that to just really be a drain on the character. Cause now it goes from being BAB, to actively sapping your skill points for truthfully no reason.
You are still basing racial feats off class, and not character.
Classes with 2+ int are now at a disadvantage for something that really should be accessible to members of the race.
Knowledge nature could actually become a useless skill. Seriously, if you are
A) a class that doesn't have Knowledge nature as a class skills
B) a class that really doesn't use int..
and C) a class that has low skill points..
If you don't have it as a class skills, there is a +3 modifier missing right there. If you don't really use int, you lose even more value for the skill.. So you start needing to bump up int, for more skill points and better base value..
Racial feats should not be pre-req'ed on anything class related [b]unless[/i] the feat itself is specifically designed for that class related subject. And no, the ability to shape-shift into a fox isn't related to knowing a lot about nature. Cause its just knowing a lot of about nature, not actually being part of nature. Also kitsune are shapeshifter subtypes, and are not really sided with animals though they look like it. That would be like saying a Rashaka is an animal.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I guess it's stylistic differences. *shrug* To me, the skill points represent studying the topic and that opens up new possibilities. I think of how Morrigain talks about shape shifting in Dragon Age, learning to be the animal, etc.
Also, (again to me) the knowlege is a side effect of the feat process.
I do (minor) web updates for work. I taught myself MS Front page and Adobe Acrobat. Or to put it in my feat logic I spent ranks in 'knowlege (MS Front Page)' and 'knowlege (acrobat)' to qualify for the "Updating PST pages" feat. Now what I learned to get that feat can apply elsewhere, and it gives me a basis to learn more 'ranks' to I can apply that knowlege elsewhere. Same thing with another skill. My anti-ki feats require ranks in heal because you have to learn where to strike to disrupt/detonate ki and as a side benefit you know more about how the body works and how to heal it as well.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I am a big fan of certain feats being limited to certain classes. Fighter only feats were very nifty when added, but the ability of other classes to be able to take them ruins the appeal. For my home games, I have a few feats that can only be taken if you have certain class abilities.
Favorite to least favorite feat prereqs:
1. Feats
2. Skill Level
3. Class Ability
4. Class/Caster Level
5. Size
6. Race
7. BAB
I guess it's stylistic differences. *shrug* To me, the skill points represent studying the topic and that opens up new possibilities. I think of how Morrigain talks about shape shifting in Dragon Age, learning to be the animal, etc.
Also, (again to me) the knowlege is a side effect of the feat process.
I do (minor) web updates for work. I taught myself MS Front page and Adobe Acrobat. Or to put it in my feat logic I spent ranks in 'knowlege (MS Front Page)' and 'knowlege (acrobat)' to qualify for the "Updating PST pages" feat. Now what I learned to get that feat can apply elsewhere, and it gives me a basis to learn more 'ranks' to I can apply that knowlege elsewhere. Same thing with another skill. My anti-ki feats require ranks in heal because you have to learn where to strike to disrupt/detonate ki and as a side benefit you know more about how the body works and how to heal it as well.
No, in game terms, if you put any ranks in anything, you put one rank into "craft: web page".
Morrigain, If I'm not mistaken, was born human and is a learned witch. In other-words she wasn't born a shape-shifter. If anything, her style of shape-shifting is more akin to an achievement feat. Not, the systematic study of nature.
Heal with the anti-ki feats would work.. But it is a bit of a steep cost considering that the two classes who would actually know of ki's existence (cause like they train for it..) do not have heal as a class skill.
The BAB also falls into the same problem as with the BAB for the kitsune feats. Now, you might put on there "Can be chosen by monk at level x" which would eliminate some of that.
Personally, Its my philosophy to build the feat pre-req based on
A) What the feat does.
B) The flavor of the feat.
C) Where the feat should go.The current issue I'm having is the Pre-reqs for the kitsune feats that currently all require BAB in order to take.
While I'm not sure on the specifics (didn't preorder from paizo, but a local store) they are..
Fox Shape - BAB +3
Quick Shape - BAB +6
Pounce - BAB + 10Out of these, only Pounce sounds combat. (Someone later confirmed that it does in fact have the "combat" tag on it.)
So in other words, the current set up for the feats is Terrible. Low-BAB classes have to wait till level 7 to get fox shape. Level 13 to get quick shape, and they can't get pounce till level 21. Medium BAB classes have to wait till level 5 for fox shape, 9 for swift, and 15 for pounce.
Since Fox Shape/Quick Shape have nothing apparent to do with combat, BAB as a requirement does not fit. There is no apparent flavor to tie shifting into a fox with being the snot out of people with sharp sticks. And its not a feat built for a specific class, but a specific race.
So things like BAB is out, Skill ranks are pretty much too. Can't use class features, and can't use caster level. None of the mechanics of classes can apply to this, they are racial feats.
So this posses a problem. How do you make a feat that is not suppose to be taken at first level? Well there is the method done with half-orcs, where you use up all earlier slots with other feats. But there is a far better one, One used for the only other racial feats that were specifically designed not to be taken at level 1. Drow feats. Yes, these were made in 3.5 days, but it is the only time that racial feats that were suppose to be taken at later levels were designed before they came up with kitsune feats.
And these feats used Character level. This is because character level is not tied to anything class related. You can have a commoner who could take them.
So I'd replace the BAB...
This is the poorest complaint I've seen for a long time. Low BAB classes are ARCANE CASTERS. They DO NOT NEED feats for shapechanging, they have spells for that.
And they can't get pounce? Pounce wouldn't even be useful for them! The guys that could want pounce are the ones with High BAB, and they can get the feat at level 11. A lowBAB wanting these feats is similar to a fighter taking ametamagic feat. It not only cripples the character wasting a feeat in something useless, it also makes no sense at all from a roleplaying perspective.And we don't even know exactly what those feats do, so maybe fox shape is more combat useful than we are thinking.
This is the poorest complaint I've seen for a long time. Low BAB classes are ARCANE CASTERS. They DO NOT NEED feats for shapechanging, they have spells for that.
It's actually a pretty good complaint. Out of all the members of a shapechanging race, who are the most likely to develop their shapechanging to the point that it is incredibly easy for them? Combat characters, skillful characters, or arcane casters? Now, who can take it the earliest in their adventuring career?
It's also a pretty good trick for conserving spells. Use your racial abilities rather than draining your per-day supply of magic to do the same task.
I'm not actually partial to Kitsune, or know what the feats do. But feat prerequisites really ought to make sense from the perspective of someone playing a character in a larger story, not from the perspective of "I think this shouldn't be available until level 6. What can I do to restrict it?" If you think that way, you will eventually be unable to see the forest for the trees.
This is the poorest complaint I've seen for a long time. Low BAB classes are ARCANE CASTERS. They DO NOT NEED feats for shapechanging, they have spells for that.It's actually a pretty good complaint. Out of all the members of a shapechanging race, who are the most likely to develop their shapechanging to the point that it is incredibly easy for them? Combat characters, skillful characters, or arcane casters? Now, who can take it the earliest in their adventuring career?
It's also a pretty good trick for conserving spells. Use your racial abilities rather than draining your per-day supply of magic to do the same task.
I'm not actually partial to Kitsune, or know what the feats do. But feat prerequisites really ought to make sense from the perspective of someone playing a character in a larger story, not from the perspective of "I think this shouldn't be available until level 6. What can I do to restrict it?" If you think that way, you will eventually be unable to see the forest for the trees.
They can get them. Even wizards can have BAB +3. The only one they can't have is... pounce. Which makes no sense for them anyway.
The most likely to develop their shapechanging are druids. Who have a medium BAB.Besides their shapeshifting is into people. The only ones that could find becoming foxes as something useful enough to invest effort into learning are the ones that can use it to spy (rogues and bards), track (rangers, barbarians and rogues) or maybe even fight (anyone with a high BAB), not the casters who would be unable to cast without a voice.
They can get them. Even wizards can have BAB +3. The only one they can't have is... pounce. Which makes no sense for them anyway.
The most likely to develop their shapechanging are druids. Who have a medium BAB.
Besides their shapeshifting is into people. The only ones that could find becoming foxes as something useful enough to invest effort into learning are the ones that can use it to spy (rogues and bards), track (rangers, barbarians and rogues) or maybe even fight (anyone with a high BAB), not the casters who would be unable to cast without a voice.
I don't doubt they can get them. It's just odd having an Int 8 fighter taunting a Druid or Transmutation specialist by changing to fox shape in front of them levels before they are able to.
I'm trying to point out that the pre-requisite is being a barrier to character theme, and barring perfectly sensible, non-game-breaking concepts. It may not be as useful for a mage to become a fox as it is for a rogue. But why do the rules have to make it that much harder to do? It might be underpowered for a mage to turn into a fox, since he can't cast spells while a Druid could. Players are perfectly capable of self-policing that sort of thing.
The crux of the message I'm trying to get across is this. If you absolutely do not want a feat taken before a certain level, then just label the feat as unavailable before that level. Tying it to other mechanics might achieve the same effect, but it also can make absolutely no sense for many perfectly valid, flavorful, and non-game-breaking character concepts.
They can get them. Even wizards can have BAB +3. The only one they can't have is... pounce. Which makes no sense for them anyway.
The most likely to develop their shapechanging are druids. Who have a medium BAB.
Besides their shapeshifting is into people. The only ones that could find becoming foxes as something useful enough to invest effort into learning are the ones that can use it to spy (rogues and bards), track (rangers, barbarians and rogues) or maybe even fight (anyone with a high BAB), not the casters who would be unable to cast without a voice.I don't doubt they can get them. It's just odd having an Int 8 fighter taunting a Druid or Transmutation specialist by changing to fox shape in front of them levels before they are able to.
I'm trying to point out that the pre-requisite is being a barrier to character theme, and barring perfectly sensible, non-game-breaking concepts. It may not be as useful for a mage to become a fox as it is for a rogue. But why do the rules have to make it that much harder to do? It might be underpowered for a mage to turn into a fox, since he can't cast spells while a Druid could. Players are perfectly capable of self-policing that sort of thing.
The crux of the message I'm trying to get across is this. If you absolutely do not want a feat taken before a certain level, then just label the feat as unavailable before that level. Tying it to other mechanics might achieve the same effect, but it also can make absolutely no sense for many perfectly valid, flavorful, and non-game-breaking character concepts.
I think we're talking at cross purposes here.
I don't really care for the fox shape and quickshifting. They could be better without a BAB restriction? Maybe, I don't know. Heaven't seen what those feats actually do.What gets me in arms is the guy complaining that BAB 10 is to high for the feat that gets pounce. And that wizards and sorcerers can't get pounce. Pounce, I believe, is directly linked with your fighting ability. It's charging at someone and attacking several times in a couple of seconds. For that one, I think it makes perfect sense to have a BAB prereq.
What gets me, is you took the entire post, deleted most of it in your head, and turned into just "Wah wah! Why can't my wizard take pounce?"
Seriously. I said that BAB was a good pre-req for it, but just a bit high. Not for the low bab casters who, regardless if they took it at all, would be completely ineffective with it and have better things to spend their feats on, but for the Medium BAB classes, most notably is ones like the ninja.
Yes, wizards have BAB +3.. AT level 7. Thats what I was complaining about for low BAB classes. Can he just cast beast shape II? Yes. But here is the thing.. THIS IS A RACIAL FEAT.
Unless the specific application for the feat is geared to a specific class feature or classes, It should not be tied to class things. In the case of vulpine pounce, This feat is GEARED TOWARDS BEATING THE CRAP OUT OF PEOPLE. As such, the BAB requirement is justified. However, I find +10 to be a bit high, not for low BAB classes, but for medium BAB classes.
EDIT: Btw, I do now know what the feat does. Beast shape II at will to assume the form of a single fox form. Like how you have alter-self at will for the human form. Nothing else. Absolutely nothing combat related. In fact, It makes you weaker at combat, since you are now tiny, naked, and the like.
I think we're talking at cross purposes here.
I don't really care for the fox shape and quickshifting. They could be better without a BAB restriction? Maybe, I don't know. Heaven't seen what those feats actually do.
What gets me in arms is the guy complaining that BAB 10 is to high for the feat that gets pounce. And that wizards and sorcerers can't get pounce.
I agree, we are not exactly at cross purposes. I'm not actually wanting to argue any specifics, I'm simply using things as examples. Pounce is one of the things that can probably be safely linked with a base attack bonus (it'd be a little odd that Monks can't use it, but I don't know if Flurry of Blows would work with it anyway).
My main concern is putting prerequisites on feats just for the sake of restricting levels and justifying it after-the-fact leads to unintentionally narrowing interesting concepts, including ones that don't break anything. Prerequisites like Knowledge: Nature mentally block out a lot of good concepts without people even realizing. In the movie Pom Poko, for example, the Kitsune were the first of the creatures to adapt to urban environments, and routinely charm/dupe people and live the high life as a result. If someone has seen that film, they might consider trying to make a character like that. If they see prerequisites of "Knowledge: Nature" or "Base Attack Bonus" when they look, though, they will probably decide that the concept won't work before even trying to voice it to their GM with any conviction (since GMs usually default to "disallow" concerning prerequisites). This is the phenomenon I would try to avoid more than anything- creative stagnation that people don't even realize is going on.
The other downside, the one that Aevux also seems to be talking about, is that if the prerequisites aren't something the character is likely to take anyway (such as Knowledge: Nature or Heal) then the character's resources (skill points) are being drained and can't be used to actually reflect what the player wants them to. It might make sense that someone who knows a great deal about ki flows might be able to heal more easily using them, but actually requiring skill points carries a different tone- the character has then devoted effort into knowing how to use a healer's kit, stitching wounds, setting broken bones, tending to the sick and poisoned, and the like. That is what you do with the Heal skill when trained- but if you knew it was possible to disrupt ki users, and only cared about doing that, then you might slog through whatever anatomy lessons they gave you until you could disrupt ki, never caring about or making the link to healing. Essentially, you still make your heal checks untrained and don't know the contents of a good healer's kit. You just know that if you hit someone hard enough here, their blood starts flowing backwards, and hit it here, it goes right way 'round again.
Yep, you hit what I was talking about on the head. It sucks having to spend limited character resources on something that you will never use and doesn't even fit into anything you have. A DM recently forced me to spend points so I could do something one session, that I never needed to spend the points for in the first place. (Preform skill, so I can use it to keep our camp moral up. we didn't even really get through a session before moral was set and locked at high due to quests.)
I protest constantly about it, cause its on my character sheet. That means its part of my character for a reason other than keeping that camp's moral up.