Weird discussion I had with a GM I'm not going to play with.
He's relatively new to the GM role, and in his first campaign he's probably going to house rule a lot (not the brightest idea, if you ask me)... all rules based on the premise that "Golarion has less magic than the average fantasy world".
This quickly became an ugly argument filled with passive-aggressive one-upmanship regarding rules lawyering and general Golarion knowledge. Whathever, I'm going to decline their offer to play so no problem.
But the question still stands, just how magical Golarion is compared to other "standard" fantasy settings? Just to be sure I haven't lost something written in some obscure manual.
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Judging from the Pathfinder Tales line, Golarion is definitely a high fantasy world where magic is very common.
The wealth by level chart in the core rulebook states that the values given are for a standard fantasy game, so it is at least intended to be on par with your average fantasy world.
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If, on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rank Golarion (and some other worlds) as follows:
1) Earth
3) Westeros
4) Middle Earth
5) Greyhawk
6) Golarion
8) Forgotten Realms
10) Eberron
Kind of ironic since (If I recall rightly could be way off with this.) Eberron was supposed to be considerd relativly low magic (due to there not being a lot of high lvl spellcaters if I am not mistaken)
Eberron is more magical then FR. FR ya have powerful people, forgotten ruins, magic scattered everywhere. Eberron you have mass produced magic in every major city. Magical train-lines. Made to order golem soldiers, Magewrites in almost every village and "Hot spots" where you can simply walk to another plane.
I would put golarion as 7 on James scale however, 7.5 really.
If, on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rank Golarion (and some other worlds) as follows:
1) Earth
3) Westeros
4) Middle Earth
5) Greyhawk
6) Golarion
8) Forgotten Realms
10) Eberron
Tank you very much James. :)
Where would you put "average fantasy RPG setting" on such a scale? Six?
Creative Director
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Yeah... I put Eberron pretty high because any setting that has a magic train, in my book, is at least two points above any setting that doesn't...
Average RPG fantasy setting is a 5. Which is where I put Greyhawk. I put Golarion slightly higher on that list mostly just because we have a lot more high-level content in Golarion than Greyhawk... including REALLY wild areas like the Worldwound or the Eye of Abendego or Nex or Geb.
In James' scale, I wonder where Harry Potter's magic world (or whatever it is; I don't know if there's a distinction between normal and magical world in Potter's universe) would take place, since it has magic in every single meaningless dust grain. What I'd define as overexcessive fantasy.
Just out of general curiosity, where on that scale would Dark Sun and Birthright be placed?
Well psinics where common in DS, not as common as the green age, but about as much as greyhawk mages.
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Creative Director
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Just out of general curiosity, where on that scale would Dark Sun and Birthright be placed?
I'd put Dark Sun at a 3. It's got lots of high-level stuff, but with things like thirst and heat exhaustion and low tech easy-to break weapons and no gods and magic that defiles nature and all that... even though it's a higher level setting, it's got less magic. Which would probably make me downgrade Westeros to a 2.
I'm actually not super familiar with Birthright, but I'd probably give it a 4 or a 5.
Both Dark Sun and Birthright should be more magical than Middle-Earth. Arda has less magic than "typical" fantasy.
Birthright should be more magical than Dark Sun but less than Greyhawk, so somewhere around 4.5.
Now we need 7 and 9 to fill.
Hmm, well, there is Kalamar, Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Jakandor, Lankhmar and Spelljammer amongst others left.
On Faerun magic seems more common to me. And I am not talking about insane number of high level NPCs (which was greatly inflated in 3rd edition, especially after introduction of epic rules). If I remember correctly first edition had rules for minor magic talents available to non-spellcasters - regretfully cut down after 2nd edition and Time Of Troubless. Ignoring high-level NPCs access to low-level magic spells and items seem more common on Faerun than on modern Golarion.
I would downgrade Eberron to 9 and place Spelljammer at 10. Planescape would get between 9 to 10 too.
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Golarion is a Fantasy Kitchen Sink, of course it's pretty high magic.
i don't understand how such a diverse setting can even be considered Low Magic. you have a country for Everything all in one setting. even the human ethnicities themselves are Diverse. it's hard to find a Concept that doesn't fit somewhere, just tweak it a little. not every concept has an obvious class, but it fits everything from King Leonidas, to Jesse James, Enma Ai, Heero Yuuy, Beowulf, and Even Flonne.
i actually like the high magic aspect that allows everything to fit somewhere.
FR has dribs and drabs of magic that pop up everywhere because it's been around so much. But the fact remains that farmers still run their farms by hand, industry and trade run by horse and wagon, armies still march to battle with swords and shields.
That's not a high magic setting. That's a setting that treats fighters like rubes and trashes them with high magic because it's NOT a high magic setting.
Eberron has mundane magic everywhere, the equivalent of giving guns out to soldiers. Magic cannon and siege engines, artificial warriors, mechanized warbots and cargo lines, eternal wands, magewrights and magic cranes, etc etc. Low magic is everywhere, and enough of it can be massed to deal with even high level threats, if need be. Horse and buggy are still around, but increasingly those horses are magebred, and the buggies are levitating. Heck, in Sharn, they fly.
Having high level people doesn't make a setting high magic. It just concentrates power in different hands. The rest of the world can still be a primitive, nasty place to live.
BTW, Greyhawk has the same problem, but not as many high level people as FR. So, the common man lives in a low magic world, and adventurers live in a high magic world. In Eberron, everyone lives in and can access the high magic world.
==Aelryinth
Actually the Forgotten Realms has a lot more magical stuff, but it never was advertised as with Eberron.
The difference is FR Had High magic. A few thousand years back. Most of FR's magic stuff is old, some very old. It was never really mass produced and the stuff that was no longer works as it was quasi-magic and not real magic.
Eberron Has magic and is just starting. They mass produce it like we did cars in the early 1900's. They are just ramping up and already the setting has magi-tech on pare with the 1920's tech level and climbing. You can freaking mail order magic items, like ya order shoes. Don't get me wrong I like eberron but it is very, very high magic.
It simply has fewer high level NPC's then FR but far more magic.
So is the question would you rather live in the ascendancy or decline of a high magic world?
So is the question would you rather live in the ascendancy or decline of a high magic world?
It depends -- am I riding the wave or being drowned by it?
I'd say Mystara's about on par with Golarion.
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Regardless of the original intent, I find that Golarion plays better with a high saturation of low-level background magic. In my games, the 'average townsperson' ranges from 1st-5th level with 3rd being the center of the distribution. While a majority are of the NPC classes, PC classes, including spellcasters are not all that rare. Spells of 1st through 3rd level are pretty common and the society is built to make use of such magic. I still don't have magic trains in Golarion, but many shops do trade in minor magic items. The average income of the townsperson is also much greater than the 1sp per day I see thrown around, making the economy a bit more capable of dealing with mid-level PCs (high-level PCs can still break it if they try to do so).
That's an interesting thought, but to me it seems to lead to a significant issue with starting PCs at 1st level. Yes, they're PC classes, but if the average townsperson is L3, it makes adventure hooks a bit more challenging--why aren't the higher-level average townsfolk taking care of <problem x> instead of leaving it to the inexperienced PCs?
Personally I'm not fond of starting at level 1 for PCs myself. I rather start at about level 3.
Probably for the same reason a 40 year old expert/3 logically doesn't want to tangle with an 18 Str ftr/1...they'd get their asses kicked.
Besides, having adventurers do dangerous stuff is what most people WANT them to do. Most people have an aversion to getting involved in lethal activities for some odd reason.
==Aelryinth
Also as was pointed out in the "Player Character's Can't do anything" thread it also gets a never-do-well or outcast/whatever out of the way and doing something potentially useful for once.
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I put Golarion slightly higher on that list mostly just because we have a lot more high-level content in Golarion than Greyhawk... including REALLY wild areas like the Worldwound or the Eye of Abendego or Nex or Geb.
? I wouldn't say that. There are a LOT of high-level areas, if you go by Carl's version the Ashs era. And you guys DID add a ton with Age of Worms >;)
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The problem with putting Planescape and Spelljammer into a 1-10 is the conventions get really wonky with out fully understanding the absolute top range. But hey, lets open the gates a little more and give you an absolutely top end on 'magic'.
If you compare say Eberron to Exalted's setting, Eberron is quaint, even though it's basically on the cusp of a magic-tech revolution.
Going from James's example:
1) Earth
2) Westeros
3) Conan
4) Middle Earth
5) Greyhawk
6) Golarion
7) Forgotten Realms
8) Eberron
9) Planescape/Spelljammer
10) Exalted
The catch is you'll have a lot of other works sitting at the same tiers. Like GURPS: Technomancer is a magic rich society and would easily be in the 8/9 range. However, unless someone can think of a higher 10 than Exalted's wonky magic tech universe please let me know.
Conan and Middle Earth are hard cases to judge - Arda has more magic items while the Conan's Earth has more spectacular spells (resurrection, mass magical plagues, mass polymorphs, turning bones into jelly).
And I know of one place, er time, that is more magical than Exalted... First Age Of Creation, uh, wait it is Exalted too... ;)
This is turning into a pretty interesting discussion, and held at a polite level as well.
Well done.
Part of what makes a campaign high magic must also be in what normal people know about magic.
In an adventure I have, set in the FR setting, a large ransom is paid out to a bunch of kidnappers, and a large quantity of the money is paid out in magical items, some of which are fairly rare, but the kidnappers had no problems naming them in any case.
In FR is it also not unusual for people who can afford it to visit temples for cure spells of various types.
A common farmer might not have the means to afford such things, but novels and adventures seem to indicate that the fact that such spells exist is fairly common knowledge.
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Ubiquity is the easiest measure of just how power magic is. If magic becomes something that is just 'given' in a setting, it's fairly high magic as far as settings go. Golarion fits somewhere in the middle high range. Comparitively say GURPS: Yrth is in the middle low range. Magic IS practiced by priests and wizards but rarely trusted outside of a temple. So rarely would you find anyone using magic spells or items to solve immediate problems.
In some parts of Golarion's setting, that is not the case. Geb/Nex are perfect examples of this. Where as Linnorm Kings is less magic, as they tend to frown on it.
When I have to measure various nations (including Tian Xia) it bumps things up a bit.