The Pathfinder Monk as it Should Have Been


Homebrew and House Rules

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Okay, okay, I know that I am going to get flamed and can feel the hate-filled stares starting up even before I finish. But I wanted to post my idea for what the Pathfinder Monk should have been. It borrows from many people, and many ideas, and even some from Pathfinder. Knowledge is indeed fungible. LOL

Back to the class; it fixes much of what so many have whined about for so long. Not everyone will like everything (heck, or anything) I've done here, but it is an honest attempt to put the class back a solid medium-BAB skirmisher that it was in 1st Edition (and yes, I have been playing monks since the early days of AD&D, but I preferred the one from Dragon Magazine; in fact you can see that classes influence on the entry below). Anyway, let me know what you think.

Master Arminas

Revised Pathfinder Monk

BAB: Medium.

Saves: All high.

Alignment: Any lawful.

Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex); Climb (Str); Craft (Int); Escape Artist (Dex); Intimidate (Cha); Knowledge (History) (Int); Knowledge (Religion) (Int); Perception (Wis); Perform (Cha); Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex); Sense Motive (Wis); Stealth (Dex); and Swim (Str).

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Weapons and Armor Proficiency: A monk is proficient with all simple weapons. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels gained as a monk thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, and Weapon Focus.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Ki Stand, Mobility, and Weapon Specialization.
At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Medusa’s Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Fast Movement (Ex): A monk’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit only applies when he is wearing no armor and is not carrying a medium or heavy load. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the monk’s land speed (such as the effects of an expeditious retreat spell, a haste spell, or any other effect that increases a monk’s speed).
At 2nd level, and every two monk levels gained thereafter, the monk’s base land speed increases by an additional 5 feet, to a maximum of 90 feet at 20th level.

Flurry of Blows (Ex): When using unarmed strikes, simple melee weapons, or darts a monk can make a flurry of blows attack. Flurry of blows can be added to either a standard attack or a full-attack; in either case, flurry of blows is not an action itself. When using this ability a monk may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes, simple melee weapons, or darts at his highest base attack bonus. However, this attack, as well as all others made by the monk in that round, suffers a penalty of -2 to hit.
At 8th level, the penalty on his attacks decreases to -1. At 15th level, the monk no longer suffers a penalty on attacks.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may freely substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attack may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than normal; from 1st-3rd level the damage is 1d6. This increases to 2d4 at 4th level. At 8th level, and every 4 monk levels gained thereafter, the damage increases by an additional 1d4 to a maximum of 6d4 at 20th level. The unarmed damage is for all monks, regardless of size. The techniques a monk learns do not alter the base damage of the class due to being either smaller or larger, although both Strength bonuses and penalties apply as normal.
A monk’s unarmed strike cannot be enhanced by any form of magical augmentation, such as magic weapon, greater magic fang, or by other means (but see ki strike, below).

Stunning Fist (Ex): At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels gained as a monk thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect.
At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued. At 8th level, he can make the target sickened for 1 minute. At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. At 16th level, he can permanently blind or deafen the target. At 20th level, he can paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds. The monk must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves (a creature sickened by Stunning Fist cannot become nauseated if by Stunning Fist again), but additional hits do increase the duration.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher, a monk can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing no armor and is not carrying a medium or heavy load. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.

Still Mind (Ex): A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects. This bonus increases to +4 at 10th level and to +6 at 17th level.

Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk begins to slowly access his internal ki, a supernatural energy that he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The monk gains a pool of ki points, equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round, or increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round, or gain one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. Each of these expenditures is a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.

Ki Strike (Su): At 4th level, a monk can focus his ki into his unarmed strikes, making them the equivalent of enchanted weapons. When first gained, the monk gains a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage. At 8th level, and every 4 levels gained thereafter as a monk, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. This enhancement bonus overcomes damage reduction just as normal magic weapons do. If the monk’s ki pool (see above) is ever exhausted (reaches 0), he loses the benefit of ki strike until his ki pool replenishes.

Catfall (Su): At 4th level or higher, a monk can fall incredible distances without suffering damage. When falling, a monk always lands on his feet. In addition, he ignores 10 feet of falling damage per monk level he possesses. Unlike magical spells (such as feather fall) with similar effects, a monk is not slowed during his descent, making this ability an extremely quick method for higher level monks to descend great distances quickly.

Agility Training (Ex): At 5th level, a monk adds his level to all Acrobatics and Climb skill checks. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can gain an additional +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.

Purity of Body (Ex): At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot).

Speak with Animals (Ex): At 6th level, a monk can converse with any creature of the animal type. Such conversations are limited by the animal’s intelligence (or lack thereof).

Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a standard action. He can expend 1 point from his ki pool to heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level + his Wisdom bonus (if any).

Walk Unseen (Su): At 8th level, a monk can expend 2 ki point as a swift action to become invisible (as per the spell) for 1 round/level. At 17th level, this improves to greater invisbility.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Air Walk (Su): At 10th level, a monk can spend 2 points from his ki pool as a swift action to walk on air as if was solid ground for 1 round (until the start of his next turn). He may move his full normal movement and conduct any actions that he would normally be allowed to do so while standing on the ground. Gaining 5 feet of altitude costs 5 feet of movement, but otherwise the monk moves as if he were still on solid earth instead of the air. However, the monk may not run while using this ability, although he can take a double move or execute a charge.

Diamond Body (Ex): At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.

Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. Unlike the normal use of dimension door, the monk may take any remaining actions in a round after using this ability. He may take up to one willing creature with him when he uses this ability.

Diamond Soul (Ex): At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to his current monk level +10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.

Speak with Plants (Ex): At 14th level, a monk gains the ability to speak with plants.

Quivering Palm (Su): Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. He can use this quivering palm attack once per day, and he must announce his intent before making his attack roll. Creatures immune to critical this cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter, the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to his monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wisdom modifier) it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target instead suffers 1 point of damage per monk level and the quivering palm attack ends. A monk can have no more than 1 quivering palm in effect at one time. If a monk uses quivering palm while another is still in effect, the previous effect is negated.

Adamantine Touch (Su): At 16th level, a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to treat his unarmed strikes as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness for 1 minute.

Timeless Body (Ex): At 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Age bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when his time is up.

Tongues (Ex): At 17th level, a monk can speak with and understand any living creature.

Plane Shift (Su): At 18th level, a monk can plane shift, as per the spell, by spending five ki points and concentrating for 1 minute.

Empty Body (Su): At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 minute as though using the spell etherealness. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 3 points from his ki pool. This ability only affects the monk and cannot be used to make other creatures ethereal.

Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk transcends his mortal limitations. He gains damage reduction 10/-, which allows him to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack. He gains blindsight in a 60-foot radius. He gains a +10 bonus on saves versus mind-affecting spells, spell-like abilities, and other effects (this replaces and does not stack with the still mind ability), as well as being the recipient of constant nondetection and undetectable alignment effects (as per the spells).
The few monks who reach this level of achievement often retire from adventuring to explore what they are becoming. Only those with the strongest of ties to their companions and their homelands remain, but even these stalwart souls will eventually simply vanish one night, and leave their old lives behind, never to return.

Ex-Monks: A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

Shadow Lodge

Dotting for later. Might have been better to sum up the changes rather than have to dig through for it. A lot of them are very subtle from the first glance.

Grand Lodge

Dot


Dot for future reading. At first glance I can only say that I am completly unconvinced by speak with animals and speak with plants abilities? Why would Monk get them? They would be good for some hermit-monk that is specifically close to nature but not for every monk.


Replace Intimidate with Diplomacy. This reflects the "words of wisdom" sctick that monks are suppossed to have.


Couple of thoughts.

FLURRY OF BLOWS
I would retain full BAB for Flurry of Blows and maintain the -2 throughout the level progression. Currently you would see a level 5 Monk hitting at +1 - not going to hit anything.

The bonus attack should be on all available attacks. Thus, when moving the Monk gets two attacks and when Full Attacking gets the full range of attacks. Otherwise, you are going to see much lower average damage per round for the Monk due to far less possible strikes.

STUNNING FIST
How many per day? I assume the normal 1 per level?

FAST MOVEMENT
Available too soon. 1st level the Monk gets two feats, Fast Movement, Improved Unarmed Strike, +2 Saves, Extra attack at all times with a simple weapon and they get to move an extra 10 feet per round - anyone who doesn't wear armour will take a dip

CATFALL
Does this remove the need for walls to slow their fall? If so, again too powerful, particularly with the land on feet. Eliminates too many dangers for a Monk - pit traps, cliffs, climbing risks etc

SPEAK WITH...
Not convinced of the flavour of this ability. I know the normal Pathfinder Monk has Tongues of Sun and Moon and these show a progression, rather than just suddenly knowing how to talk to all creatures, but I'm dubious...

DAMAGE PROGRESSION
I think this is reasonable. You are mostly increasing the minimum/average damage, rather than increasing the top end and this seems reasonable to me. Maybe drop it to a 5 level progression with my proposed changes to Flurry of Blows above.

WEAPON PROFICIENCIES
Not sure what I think about these changes. I think I prefer the Monk weapon restrictions, or I would limit Flurry of Blows to light weapons - heavier weapons do not lend themselves to such blindingly fast attacks...

SUGGESTIONS
I would suggest an introduction of an ability that allows the Monk to move in between attacks when using Flurry of Blows.

Perhaps at 5th level the Monk can move 5' between any Flurry of Blows attack each round up to half his movement. This increases by 5' per attack for every 5 Monk levels - ie. 10' at 10th, 15' at 15th and 20' at 20th level (all at half movement)


dot

Liberty's Edge

First off, bravo on the effort and making a stand on your position and opening yourself up for criticism. Something that is far rare here.

Moving on to looking at the class

1. I like what you did with fast movement.
2. I understand what you did with the weapons, I think you should have stuck with monk weapons (as they are better than simple weapons) and I don’t know why you removed shuriken.
3. I completely disagree with making flurry of blows a standard action.
4. I am on the fence with what you did with ki strike and unarmed damage, but I definitely think this is a viable mechanic to use as way to go to deal with monks not being able to enhance unarmed strike, and I applaud that.
5. I like cat fall better than slow fall.
6. I like agility training, as it makes sense for the class flavor wise.
7. I don’t think speak with animals is needed
8. I don’t think walk unseen is needed. Perhaps for a ninja archetype, but otherwise no.
9. Same with air walk
10. I don’t think speak with plants is needed.
11. I am not sure why you nerfed adamantine hands.
12. I don’t think plane shift is needed

Again, I like a lot of it and I applaud pushing forward the conversation.


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Quote:

Revised Pathfinder Monk

BAB: Medium.

You lost me.

Shadow Lodge

Such a pity.


Not to say the revamp doesn't hold merit.
I just think that is the first, best fix.

Liberty's Edge

TOZ wrote:
Such a pity.

I prefer to leave behind those who make the perfect the enemy of the good.

They are the ones that end up making change impossible.

Shadow Lodge

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I still think it's better to give full BAB than the current psuedo-full they have.

But I realized that like the Fighter, more numbers isn't going to fix the Monk by itself. So I can accept a medium BAB class that addresses problems in other ways.


Yes, stunning fist was suppossed to be 1/level, just like the published monk. A look of the abilities (speak with animals, speak with plants, invisibility, plane shift) I included because of their connection with the 1st edition monk, both the PHB and the Dragon magazine classes. But I am certainly willing to make changes: this is, after all a starting point, not the finish line.

Now to the specific points.

1. Thanks, but I can see Ayronc's point as well. Have to think about this one.

2. I simply got rid of all monk weapons. A kama is a sickle; a staff is a staff, and a shuriken is a dart. Only thing you lose, really, is the bonus on disarm and trip some of those weapons gave.

3. The thing to remember when using flurry as a standard, is that unless you spend a ki point, you are only getting two attacks. The one attack a standard action allows and your bonus flurry attack. I did this to allow the monk to move and fight somewhat more effectively. Sure, he still have medium BAB, but he eventually gains a +5 bonus to hit and damage, plus his Strength modifier. That is as good as a rogue, and as good as any monk throughout the history of AD&D. Combined with the ability to two (or three) times while moving, it makes the class into a first-rate skirmisher and scout, while his maneuver training, allows him to play all sorts of nasty little tricks on classes with higher BAB and more hit points.

4. It is virtually the same mechanic as the magus class (which gets six full levels of spell-casting on the same Hit Die and BAB!), but the monks bonuses start later. The change in damage makes small monks more effective, eliminates the need for INA, makes large monks less attractive, and (while keeping the same average damage, roughly) makes the player feel like he is doing more.

5. So do I, but is it too powerful? In answer to Ayronc's question, no it doesn't need a wall.

6. The ability of a martial artist/monk to do amazing things in the realm of climbing, leaping, falling is nearly superhuman--even in the real world. Don't believe me? Look up pankour. You will be amazed.

7. You are right, he doesn't need it. But the original 1st edition monk had it (and speak with plants later), and it makes a good progression towards tongues later. I'd say keep it, if only for the flavor (even though, admittedly, most players will never use it).

8. Yeah, I wasn't really sure about that one, and was looking at the Dragon #53 article (He's Got a Lot to Kick About) for inspiration, when I saw that class had invisibility. Of course, a lot of films show zen masters/monks/etc that suddenly disappear once someone turns away and then looks back--that could be high speed or invisibility, either way.

9. Costs 2 ki points, lasts for 1 round, and is limited to maximum range of 180 feet at 20th level. But it gives the monk a needed response to flight. However, if it is too much, I could remove it.

10. See #7.

11. Changing ki strike meant I had to add in adamantine touch to allow the monk to bypass hardness. The ki point cost is not bad, considering it lasts for a minute once activated. You still get it at the same level the canon monk gets DR/adamantine.

12. Agreed. This is one of those abilities from the Dragon #53 monk, but I wouldn't cry if it went away.

Kryzbyn, I am sorry that you don't like the medium BAB, but the monk had never (in any edition) been a full-BAB class. I did try to up the power to on par with Pathfinder classes, but didn't want to just throw away the traditions of the past and ignore the previous editions of the game completely.

Ayronc, I like your suggesstion for moving between attacks on a flurry. Perhaps make that a feat?

Anyway, thanks for taking a look and giving a critique.

MA


Darkwing Duck wrote:
Replace Intimidate with Diplomacy. This reflects the "words of wisdom" sctick that monks are suppossed to have.

You know, I didn't even think about that. Thanks! It would certainly fit the class better.

MA


Ho harm, no foul.

It's just the first thing I look for in a monk revamp.


A minor (kind of) addition to ki pool.

Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk begins to slowly access his internal ki, a supernatural energy that he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The monk gains a pool of ki points, equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round, or increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round, or gain one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack, or apply his Wisdom modifier on attack rolls when making a flurry of blows attack, or apply his Wisdom modifier on damage rolls when making a flurry of blows attack. Each of these expenditures is a swift action. A monk is limited to one swift action each round. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.

This change gives the monk the option of being better able to hit or cause damage at the cost of extra speed, an extra attack, or a higher armor class.

MA


I really think that a re-made monk should merge in the qinggong archetype. What I mean is that the monk should (similar to barbarian and rogue) get ki powers. This moves a lot of the weird abilities out of the basic form (like speak with animals and plants) and makes them available as optional ki powers instead.

Also, rather than adding the ability to use Wisdom for attack or damage in the ki pool, I'd make those things available as ki powers to be learned. Additionally - if you strictly want to stick to the version of flurrying that you presented - a ki power could be adding an additional flurry attack at -5 penalty.


I think vows (actually worthwhile vows) should be added.

I also think the monk, of all characters, needs to be less dependent on gear.

Shadow Lodge

One of the things Kirth and I noticed about giving classes selectable abilities is, you might as well give the weak/situational ones (speak with animals/plants being a good example) for free as regular class abilities. Then you don't punish people who want a more casual over optimized character when they chose that ability over a stronger one.


DD, how would you go about with vows? What would you recommend? I, personally, have never cared for them, so I am not the best to write them. Anything specific you have worked on?

TOZ, agreed. Most players will never use speak with animals or speak with plants. Those are there mainly for flavor, and moving them a 'pool' of ki powers would mean that they would almost never see use.

Back in the day of 1st edition, I played a PHB monk (with elements of the Dragon #53 article). I was a new player (first campaign ever) and was a level behind everyone else. So I had to play smarter. Sure, I couldn't charm the animals I talked to, but I played up that aspect of the monk, carried around cheese and bags of seeds, fed the animals as I talked with them--and learned things the other 'more powerful' players didn't know. I even talked the rats and gulls aboard a ship into making life miserable for a PC that stole from me: the gulls pooped on him everytime he went above decks, while the rats chewed his gear to ribbons. All without a charm or any spell (-like ability) other than speak with animals. And you know what? I never forgot that character, because he made use of a 'weak' ability.

Optimization solely for the sake of having the best isn't what I am trying here, I want to build a monk that feels like the 1st edition PHB monk that Gary Gygax made long, long ago.

Master Arminas

Shadow Lodge

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<blatant shill> MA, have you looked at Kirthfinder? You may be able to crib some ideas there. </blatant shill>


Ayronc, I would really like to keep the fast movement starting at 1st level. Perhaps, move flurry of blows to 3rd instead? That would also delay the two attacks for three levels, to when a rogue could get the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

Would that work better and not make the class so front-loaded?

Master Arminas


Definately some interesting stuff, TOZ. Going through it bit by bit to mine for ideas. LOL. Just have replied to you thread there, yet.

MA


Ok, ditch the Walk Unseen at level 8 and instead we have:

Time’s Steady Flow (Su): At 8th level, a monk is no longer affected by either haste or slow effects, including weapons with the speed property.

Just like the original AD&D PHB monk, but it has good points and bad points to it.

Opinions?

MA


master arminas wrote:

Ok, ditch the Walk Unseen at level 8 and instead we have:

Time’s Steady Flow (Su): At 8th level, a monk is no longer affected by either haste or slow effects, including weapons with the speed property.

Just like the original AD&D PHB monk, but it has good points and bad points to it.

Opinions?

MA

That is, by far, more a handicap than a benefit. Haste is a pretty standard buff at that level, while Slow rarely shows up.

Now if it JUST prevented Slow it would be 'kinda nice' but not great.

If it placed the Monk under permanent Haste (meaning while Slow is in effect he'd be normal) then it would be very good. (Some would argue too good, I'm not going to touch that argument, it could or could not be.)


Ok, that will raise more ire than it solves, lol. How about this?

Spiritual Endurance (Ex): At 8th level, a monk's training and inner reserves of ki allow him to comfortably exist in environments and conditions that would quickly sap the strength from others. He is considered to be under the influence of an endure elements spell at all times, ignoring the extremes of heat and cold. In addition, he may go for a number of days equal to one-half his monk level without eating or drinking before beginning to suffer adverse effects. He requires only four hours of sleep per night, provided that he also meditates for at least four hours as well. While meditating, a monk remains fully aware of his surroundings and may make Perception checks without penalty.

Does that fit the flavor of the monk class better?

MA


Dotting this. I love that there are all these monk threads just when I'm getting interested in the class :)


I'd add water walk at level 5 or so (for a ki point, or at level 7 without ki point), to have a progression before air walk. And maybe "perfect balance: the monk can stand on things that can't sustain his weight, like a leaf; consider the monk has no weight. It also allow a monk to walk on a pressure plate without activating it." (for a ki point also?). It's not very powerful and doesn't change the balance of the class, but when it comes into play, it allows some cool special moves.

I prefer a simple mechanic like feather fall over catfall, but it's a matter of personal preference.

I agree with TOZ, I prefer full BAB over "almost full BAB but not really".


GâtFromKI wrote:

I'd add water walk at level 5 or so (for a ki point, or at level 7 without ki point), to have a progression before air walk. And maybe "perfect balance: the monk can stand on things that can't sustain his weight, like a leaf; consider the monk has no weight. It also allow a monk to walk on a pressure plate without activating it." (for a ki point also?). It's not very powerful and doesn't change the balance of the class, but when it comes into play, it allows some cool special moves.

I prefer a simple mechanic like feather fall over catfall, but it's a matter of personal preference.

I agree with TOZ, I prefer full BAB over "almost full BAB but not really".

I agree with most of this.

The one place I disagree, is Featherfall over Catfall. While the Monk's slowfall/catfall progression is slower than I would prefer, that 'fall 60 feet per round' caveat of featherfall is troubling when you really need to get down somewhere and you often see fantasy martial artists leaping from massively high places and landing at normal speed without harm. Catfall supports that, featherfall does not.


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Ok, I have incorporated a number of your suggestions, and here is Take 2. I dumped the invisiblity, and instead used the spiritual endurance as shown above. Also got rid of air walk and plane shift--they don't really fit. I believe that what I replaced them with fits the concept of the monk a little better, even if it means he can't sorta fly. Ha! Moved flurry to 3rd level, so it is not so advantageous to take a 1-level dip into monk, and replaced Intimidate with Diplomacy. (Of course, in nearly every martial arts film I have ever seen, I don't think the hero has put a single rank into either skill, since they can't seem to talk or frighten people out of fighting them!)

I know it is a long post, and it was suggested that just summarize the changes. But I like to read the changes in context to the whole of the class, and perhaps you do as well. But that is why I posting the whole thing again for version 2.0.

Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions and advice, and feel free to critique this revised version as well. I would love to know what you think, what I need to cut, add, whatever. And above all, enjoy.

EDIT: Thejeff reminded me of what I meant to do. The heavy mace and morning star are simply too heavy and unwieldly for a monk to use effectively in his fighting style. I have removed them from the available weapon proficiencies. Thanks TJ!

Master Arminas

Revised Pathfinder Monk, Take 2

Alignment: Any lawful.

Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex); Climb (Str); Craft (Int); Diplomacy (Cha); Escape Artist (Dex); Knowledge (History) (Int); Knowledge (Religion) (Int); Perception (Wis); Perform (Cha); Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex); Sense Motive (Wis); Stealth (Dex); and Swim (Str).

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Weapons and Armor Proficiency: A monk is proficient with all simple weapons, with the exception of the heavy mace and morning star. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels gained as a monk thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, and Weapon Focus.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Ki Stand, Mobility, and Weapon Specialization.
At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Medusa’s Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Fast Movement (Ex): A monk’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit only applies when he is wearing no armor and is not carrying a medium or heavy load. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the monk’s land speed (such as the effects of an expeditious retreat spell, a haste spell, or any other effect that increases a monk’s speed)..
At 2nd level, and every two monk levels gained thereafter, the monk’s base land speed increases by an additional 5 feet, to a maximum of 90 feet at 20th level.

Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attack may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than normal; from 1st-3rd level the damage is 1d6. This increases to 2d4 at 4th level. At 8th level, and every 4 monk levels gained thereafter, the damage increases by an additional 1d4, to a maximum of 6d4 at 20th level. The unarmed damage is for all monks, regardless of size. The techniques a monk learns do not alter the base damage of the class due to being either smaller or larger, although both Strength bonuses and penalties apply as normal.
A monk’s unarmed strike cannot be enhanced by any form of magical augmentation, such as magic weapon, greater magic fang, or by other means (but see Ki strike, below).

Stunning Fist (Ex): At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels gained as a monk thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect.
At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued. At 8th level, he can make the target sickened for 1 minute. At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. At 16th level, he can permanently blind or deafen the target. At 20th level, he can paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds. The monk must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves (a creature sickened by Stunning Fist cannot become nauseated if by Stunning Fist again), but additional hits do increase the duration.
A monks gains one use of this feat for every monk level he possesses, as described in the Stunning Fist feat.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher, a monk can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing no armor and is not carrying a medium or heavy load. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Flurry of Blows (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains the ability to make a flurry of blows. When using unarmed strikes, simple melee weapons, or darts a monk can make a flurry of blows attack. Flurry of blows can be added to either a standard attack or a full-attack; in either case, flurry of blows is not an action itself. When using this ability a monk may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes, simple melee weapons, or darts at his highest base attack bonus. However, this attack, as well as all others made by the monk in that round, suffers a penalty of -2 to hit.
At 8th level, the penalty on his attacks decreases to -1. At 15th level, the monk no longer suffers a penalty on attacks.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may freely substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus and his Combat Maneuver Defense. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.

Still Mind (Ex): A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects. This bonus increases to +4 at 10th level and to +6 at 17th level.

Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk begins to slowly access his internal ki, a supernatural energy that he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The monk gains a pool of ki points, equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift, a monk can invoke any one of the following options: he can gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round; he can increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round, he can gain one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack; he can add his Wisdom modifier to his attack rolls (in addition to his Strength modifier); or he can add his Wisdom modifier to his damage rolls (in addition to his Strength modifier).
A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he latter gains levels. The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.

Ki Strike (Su): At 4th level, a monk can focus his ki into his unarmed strikes, making them the equivalent of enchanted weapons. When first gained, the monk gains a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage. At 8th level, and every 4 levels gained thereafter as a monk, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. This enhancement bonus overcomes damage reduction just as normal magic weapons do. If the monk’s ki pool (see above) is ever exhausted (reaches 0), he loses the benefit of ki strike until his ki pool replenishes.

Catfall (Su): At 4th level or higher, a monk can fall incredible distances without suffering damage. When falling, a monk always lands on his feet. In addition, he ignores 10 feet of falling damage per monk level he possesses. Unlike magical spells (such as feather fall) with similar effects, a monk is not slowed during his descent, making this ability a favored method for higher level monks to descend great distances quickly.

Agility Training (Ex): At 5th level, a monk adds his level to all Acrobatics and Climb skill checks. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk can gain an additional +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.

Purity of Body (Ex): At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot).

Speak with Animals (Ex): At 6th level, a monk can converse with any creature of the animal type. Such conversations are limited by the animal’s intelligence (or lack thereof).

Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a standard action. He can expend 1 point from his ki pool to heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level + his Wisdom bonus (if any).

Spiritual Endurance (Ex): At 8th level, a monk's training and inner reserves of ki allow him to comfortably exist in environments and conditions that would quickly sap the strength from others. He is considered to be under the influence of an endure elements spell at all times, ignoring the extremes of heat and cold. In addition, he may go for a number of days equal to one-half his monk level without eating or drinking before beginning to suffer adverse effects. He requires only four hours of sleep per night, provided that he also meditates for at least four hours as well. While meditating, a monk remains fully aware of his surroundings and may make Perception checks without penalty.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Duty Never Tires (Ex): At 10th level, a monk gains Endurance as a bonus feat. Furthermore, by spending 1 ki point as a swift action, he can ignore the effects of fatigue for 10 minutes per monk level.

Diamond Body (Ex): At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.

Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. Unlike the normal use of dimension door, the monk may take any remaining actions in a round after using this ability. He may take up to one willing creature with him when he uses this ability.

Diamond Soul (Ex): At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to his current monk level +10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.

Speak with Plants (Ex): At 14th level, a monk gains the ability to speak with plants.

Quivering Palm (Su): Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. He can use this quivering palm attack once per day, and he must announce his intent before making his attack roll. Creatures immune to critical this cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter, the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to his monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wisdom modifier) it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target instead suffers 1 point of damage per monk level and the quivering palm attack ends. A monk can have no more than 1 quivering palm in effect at one time. If a monk uses quivering palm while another is still in effect, the previous effect is negated.

Adamantine Touch (Su): At 16th level, a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to treat his unarmed strikes as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness for 1 minute.

Timeless Body (Ex): At 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Age bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when his time is up.

Tongues (Ex): At 17th level, a monk can speak with and understand any living creature.

Stalwart Soul (Ex): At 18th level, a monk no longer suffers any penalties for being fatigued (he still remains fatigued, however, for purposes of exhaustion). If the monk becomes exhausted, he may spend 2 ki points as a swift action to ignore the effects of exhaustion for 1 minute per monk level.

Empty Body (Su): At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 minute as though using the spell etherealness. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 3 points from his ki pool. This ability only affects the monk and cannot be used to make other creatures ethereal.

Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk transcends his mortal limitations. He gains damage reduction 10/-, which allows him to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack. He gains blindsight in a 60-foot radius. He gains a +10 bonus on saves versus mind-affecting spells, spell-like abilities, and other effects (this replaces and does not stack with the still mind ability), as well as being the recipient of constant nondetection and undetectable alignment effects (as per the spells).
The few monks who reach this level of achievement often retire from adventuring to explore what they are becoming. Only those with the strongest of ties to their companions and their homelands remain, but even these will eventually simply vanish one night, never to return.

Ex-Monks: A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.


I have to say, for reasons of flavor, I'm not fond of going to "simple melee weapons". Morningstars in particular just don't fit the monk well and they're probably the best for straight damage.

I see your point about folding the monk weapons into existing simple weapons, but you didn't really address adding the better simple weapons.
Why wouldn't you use a morningstar for d8 instead of your fists for d6 at least up to 4th level?


And I meant to fix that last night, but forgot. Thanks thejeff, the above post is now fixed to remove the morning star as well as the heavy mace from the monk weapon proficiencies. Thank you again for reminding me.

Master Arminas


How would you feel about Catfall as a 10 feet per level, every level increase?

1: +10 feet
2: +20 feet total 30
3: +30 feet total 60
4: +40 feet total 100
5: +50 feet total 150

In that way you avoid the 'unlimited slow fall' issue of the original Monk, but by level 20 it might as well be unlimited for practical purposes (aside from falling out of an airship or off a dragon/roc or something)

It caps at 2100 feet at level 20 (which is still less than half a mile)


Well, I wanted to keep it simple to figure: 7th level monk = 70 feet; 11th level monk = 110 feet; 15th level monk = 150 feet; etc.; etc.

BUT, there is nothing stopping a DM from making that change. Instead, you might go back to Catfall as Dreamscapes changed it in (what is the name?) Psionics Unleashed. There it is 40 feet per manifester level. I thought that was too much, so maybe 20 feet per manifester level?

And in the vast majority of my games, I have never seen a character fall more than 200-300 feet. Of course, my group didn't want to climb the Eiger for fun and games, so maybe you need a couple of thousand feet of falling safety! LOL

Master Arminas


You haven't lived until you've had battles on rickety old frail rope bridges and on the back of a flying great wyrm dragon :P

Shadow Lodge

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Don't forget the thousand foot rock spires kyrt. Speed climbing down the side to leap out over the hundred foot gap and snatch a falling ally from mid-air, latching onto another spire to save you both...


My characters generally prefer less . . . ah . . . suicidal battlefields than the back of a great wyrm dragon!

MA


TOZ wrote:
Don't forget the thousand foot rock spires kyrt. Speed climbing down the side to leap out over the hundred foot gap and snatch a falling ally from mid-air, latching onto another spire to save you both...

Win, pure and untarnished win right here.


I don't think there's really much difference in practical terms between reliably falling 200-300' without injury and falling an unlimited distance. Either for balance or for fluff.
Either is clearly super-human, which by high levels monks should be.
I like the quicker 10' per level per level approach for the start. It starts reasonable then grows quickly. At some point over 10th, let it be unlimited.

Shadow Lodge

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Win, pure and untarnished win right here.

I miss playing my epic monk. Good times.


Something like this, TJ?

Catfall (Su): At 4th level or higher, a monk can fall incredible distances without suffering damage. When falling, a monk always lands on his feet. In addition, he ignores 10 feet of falling damage per monk level he possesses. Unlike magical spells (such as feather fall) with similar effects, a monk is not slowed during his descent, making this ability a favored method for higher level monks to descend great distances quickly. At 10th level, the distance that a monk can safely fall doubles to 20 feet per monk level. At 16th level, the distance that a monk can safely fall increases again to 40 feet per monk level.

I've bolded the added parts. That would let a monk of 9th level or below safely fall up to 90'. 15th level monks could safely fall 300'. 20th level monks could safely fall 800'. Not quite unlimited, but it should be enough, shouldn't it?

Master Arminas.

Shadow Lodge

Ooo, I like that. Very elegant.


master arminas wrote:
At 16th level, the distance that a monk can safely fall doubles again to 40 feet per monk level.

Overall, I'm not a fan of exponential scaling (it's X per level, which increases by level, so overall it's x per level per level...). If linear scaling won't work for some reason, why not just make it 10 ft. x (level squared) or something?

Still, if you must keep it as-is, you need to amend the snipped quoted to say either:

  • "At 16th level, the distance that a monk can safely fall increases again, to 40 feet per monk level."

    or else:

  • "At 16th level, the distance that a monk can safely fall doubles again to 40 feet per monk level; this is a specific exception to the general rules on doubling a double."


  • I've got to say it's a shame you dropped the Air Walk ability.
    It would make an fun abusive combination: Catfall 200', land on the air (as if was solid ground), jump off and repeat as long as you have ki.


    thejeff wrote:

    I've got to say it's a shame you dropped the Air Walk ability.

    It would make an fun abusive combination: Catfall 200', land on the air (as if was solid ground), jump off and repeat as long as you have ki.

    I'd hardly call that abusive Jeff. You'd still have to expend a move action for the landing jump.


    The text is fixed, Kirth-Gersen.

    TJ, Kyrt, that is one reason I dropped air walk, along with it not really fitting in. I got to thinking about how it could be abused last night (although I must say, I didn't consider using it to fall in stages, TJ).

    MA


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    Why not base falling off the Acrobatics skill? The rules already allow for reducing the effective fall distance by 10 feet on a DC 15. Just extend that.


    Just wondering Master Arminas, what abuse were you thinking of?


    Not abuse really, but some of things that could be done. Sure, it only lasts a single round, you could activate at the start of your next round (or 2 or 3 or 4, etc), and stay airborne. Then, instead of landing, you could catfall to the round. While moving up to 180' a round with perfect maneuverability. It was too much. In my opinion.

    MA

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