Potion: brew & use - use potion against not-willing?

[Defraeter]

From Exactly which spells can be potions and/or oils?
Potions:
* Duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level
* Must have a casting time of less than 1 minute
* Must target one or more creatures (objects too, I assume)
* Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions
* The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect
* The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target
* When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell, yet “though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect.”
* Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed

You can make any potion from spells 1-3 which have the line "target" opened other than "you" or "personnal".
potion of Shield (target personnal) or Fireball (it's an area and not a target spell) are not allowed but potion of Bestow Curse or Chill Metal are ok...

1) Is it possible to apply potion/oil on creature not willing?
The rules:
- Standard Action with AoO to imbibe/apply potion on himself
- Full-round Action with AoO to imbibe/apply potion on unconscious creature

So
- Melee Touch Attack as improvised weapon (with AoO) against a not willing? Standard or Full-round? Do the creature have a save?

2) Choice of (bad) effect: case of potion of Bestow Curse
If 1) is ok, who chooses the curse: creator of oil/potion or the "user"?

3) Adding New Abilities on potion: possible to create a "double-potion"?
So can we brew a potion and add anothers spells inside the same potion?
Ex: a potion with two or more spells inside like Bull's Strenght and Cat's Grace together.
Of course, it is not possible to put the same spell more than 1 time.

How much the cost? cost of 1st potion +cost of 2nd? or the second one x150%?

[skrahen]

Another thing you might consider checking out if you are interested in using potions offensively is the bestiary entry on iron cobra, which would indicate that potions can be injected for effect. this would open up the use of things like syringe spears filled with potions, and whatever else you can think of.

[0gre]

Probably the best guideline for mixing two potions into a single one is the alchemists combine extracts discovery. The cost of creating a double extract is the cost of the highest level extract +2 spell levels. You would only be able to make first level potions this way due to the level limits. An alchemist might be able to make potions that way already, I haven't looked into that.

You can give an unwilling creature a potion via an injection spear from Classic Horrors Revisited, I think it's been reprinted elsewhere also you can check it out on the archives of Nethys. I don't think a touch attack to apply is reasonable since they are specifically imbibed. You might be able to make a slightly different type of magic item that could be applied that way but it should be more expensive.

[Sean K Reynolds]

Defraeter wrote:

2) Choice of (bad) effect: case of potion of Bestow Curse
If 1) is ok, who chooses the curse: creator of oil/potion or the "user"?

From the Brew Potion feat: "When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell."

[Rogue Eidolon]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Defraeter wrote:

2) Choice of (bad) effect: case of potion of Bestow Curse
If 1) is ok, who chooses the curse: creator of oil/potion or the "user"?

From the Brew Potion feat: "When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell."

Indeed. Which has confused me for a while about Lesser Restoration potions. Shouldn't you have to make "Lesser Restoration: heal Str damage" potions and the like?

[Sean K Reynolds]

Technically true, though I think that adds an unneeded layer of complexity to the spell and potion. I'd much rather there be one kind of potion of lesser restoration that cures any type (as needed) than for a PC to have to carry all 6 kinds on the contingency of six kinds of damage.

I know, you could apply the same logic to the potion of resist energy, but I think there's more of a precedent in the game and in mythology of "this balm protects ye against the mightiest flame!" than "this balm protects ye against flame, or bolts from ye sky, or winter's chill, or yon pool of acid, or the shrill cry of my shrewish wife!"

[Rogue Eidolon]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Technically true, though I think that adds an unneeded layer of complexity to the spell and potion. I'd much rather there be one kind of potion of lesser restoration that cures any type (as needed) than for a PC to have to carry all 6 kinds on the contingency of six kinds of damage.

I know, you could apply the same logic to the potion of resist energy, but I think there's more of a precedent in the game and in mythology of "this balm protects ye against the mightiest flame!" than "this balm protects ye against flame, or bolts from ye sky, or winter's chill, or yon pool of acid, or the shrill cry of my shrewish wife!"

Yup. In my game, I tell my players that RAW they'd need to specify their Lesser Restoration potions due to the rule of choices at the time of creation, but I'm giving them a break because that would be a pain (and I agree with Resist Energy and Protection from Energy being more thematic that way).

I think Lesser Restoration should probably be called out as an exception, though, since I think I've seen Lesser Restoration potions as treasure in published modules.

[Defraeter]

I thanks everyone for their answers, and in particular Sean K Reynolds of Paizo Staff.

I resume:
1) Not possible to apply oil or to imbibe potion on creature not willing (or on objects worn by creature not willing).

The only exception is the use of an object to inject potion in the not willing, like the Syringe Spear (see Pathfinder Companion: Adventurer's Armory)

2) The creator of the potion determines any choices that he would normally makes when casting the spell.
So, for instance, he decides:
- which curse will affect the imbiber: -6 Str OR... OR -6 Cha OR -4 penalty on attacks roll/..., OR 50%... for potion of Bestow Curse
- which energy Fire OR cold OR acid OR electricity Or sonic for potion of Protection From Energy
- blindness OR deafness for potion of Blindness/Deafness
- ...

The only exception is potion of Lesser Restoration: it is the imbiber of the potion who decides which ability score to cure.

3) a double potion (a potion with 2 spells inside) is not possible:
One potion = One spell effect

[Bwang]

Tossing oils and salves out for consideration, can any of these be used on the unwilling, etc?

[Oliver McShade]

What about throwing potions as Contract poisons? Like for acid, contagion, or cause disease.

[Defraeter]

Potions cannot be thrown: they are not splash weapon.

Remember that the size of potion is about as your finger: (rule) "...The stoppered container is usually no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high. The vial has AC 13, 1 hit point, hardness 1, and a break DC of 12..." and a potion has "no weight".

(Rule) "...Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber..." Potion duplicates the effect of a spell, it is not a "special material" like a flask of acid, which is a special substance with a weight of 1lb and that you can throw like splash weapon.

More, it is written down inside the description of the item if the item can be thrown (with a ranged touch attack) and if it's a splash weapon.

(rule) "...Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed..."

Unguent, salve, elixir,... are similar to potion, except you must create as wondrous item. Their use is written down inside their description.

For poison of contact, nothing special is notified, so i think it would be possible to make flask of poison (so becoming splash weapon), but... these poison are very expansive, so i doubt if it is very interesting to risk so much money in a throwing...