Trick Shot (Ex): At 3rd level, an archer can choose one of
the following combat maneuvers or actions: disarm, feint, or
sunder. He can perform this action with a bow against any
target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB. Every
four levels beyond 3rd, he may choose an additional trick
shot to learn. These maneuvers use up arrows as normal.
If the archer chooses feint, does the denial of Dex to AC on the archer's next attack still apply only to melee attacks? That is, must the archer drop his bow and draw his sword (in addition to possibly taking a move action to get there) in order to use this ability. Or since this is a special ability for archers, does it allow him to use the denial of Dex to AC on a ranged attack?
Well, in the text that he listed, it says specifically "disarm, feint or sunder". So no grapple, etc.
I'd say that it's practically outright saying that you reap the benefits of the feint with your bow. Otherwise, they wouldn't have kept it as an option when they removed others like tripping, or bullrush.
A fighter (archer) / rogue multiclass is a viable ranged-sneak attack build, I suppose.
Technically an Archer could benefit, by Feinting via Ranged Attack, then drawing a melee weapon (or already having one, e.g. UAS). Their melee attacks would still benefit....
...But I suspect the wording may be adjusted here...
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I wrote the APG fighter archetypes, and the implication I intended to convey was that you could both perform the feint and BENEFIT from the feint with your bow. It would seem a little silly to let them do the feint but not get any advantage from it, but if the RAW seems overly ambiguous and you're looking for RAI that's it.
I wrote the APG fighter archetypes, and the implication I intended to convey was that you could both perform the feint and BENEFIT from the feint with your bow. It would seem a little silly to let them do the feint but not get any advantage from it, but if the RAW seems overly ambiguous and you're looking for RAI that's it.
I know this is dredging up an old thread, but was it intended for Trick Shot to heavily suggest/require you to take the feat Agile Maneuvers in order for the ability to be worthwhile? Yes, some fighters will have a Str score equal to that of their Dex, but it seems odd to me that a ranged-exclusive ability would work off of Str.
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Note official, exactly, but here you go:
Q: Since disarm, sunder, and trip are attack actions (not standard maneuvers like bull rush, overrun, or grapple), does the Weapon Finesse feat allow the fighter to add his Dex to his CMB for those specific attacks? Or would I need Agile Maneuvers no matter what maneuver I wanted?A: () Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and similar feats would only apply when you're attempting a combat maneuver with that weapon. For the most part, this would be limited to things like disarm or sunder or MAYBE trip. You wouldn't get this bonus to things like overrun, bull rush, or grapple that don't use a weapon attack as part of their requirements. Agile Maneuvers applies to EVERY maneuver every time. (Source)
Normally combat maneuvers can't be used with a ranged weapon, so Strength would be the default. Since weapon modifiers are applied when making a combat maneuver with a weapon, and all the maneuvers in question are being applied with the Bow, then you would use the weapon modifiers of the Bow, not melee or even regular maneuvers.
So in this specific archetype's case, you'd *not* use Strength, and in fact *must* use Dexterity as your ability score modifier for your CMB.
This is definitely a candidate for an official FAQ entry though. We know how Jason Nelson intended for it to work, however how legal this is on an official scale (such as for PFS games), we may need an actual FAQ entry (or possibly errata spelling it out more specifically).
By that argument, if you were using a rapier with Weapon Finesse you would use your Dex bonus when making combat maneuvers, but I'm rather certain that isn't the case.
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By that argument, if you were using a rapier with Weapon Finesse you would use your Dex bonus when making combat maneuvers, but I'm rather certain that isn't the case.
For disarms, sunders and trips that is the case.
Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
I wrote the APG fighter archetypes, and the implication I intended to convey was that you could both perform the feint and BENEFIT from the feint with your bow. It would seem a little silly to let them do the feint but not get any advantage from it, but if the RAW seems overly ambiguous and you're looking for RAI that's it.
I appreciate the candor, but the fact is the RAW regarding Feint is melee centric, so I support the FAQing of this to get the your intent into the wording of the Archer.
There are a few things that get a little muddy with the APG Fighter archetype class abilities in light of some of the recent FAQ clarifications (specifically Sweeping Fend & Shield Fighter) and I hope that they can be ammended.
That being said, I absolutley love the archetype system (and specifically the fighter archetypes - because I can never decide which one to pick) they add a whole lot of flavor and customization to the game.
By that argument, if you were using a rapier with Weapon Finesse you would use your Dex bonus when making combat maneuvers, but I'm rather certain that isn't the case.For disarms, sunders and trips that is the case.
Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
Thanks. Good to know!