Instead of switching to a quarterstaff, Melvin 1.2 gets rid of Amulet of Mighty Fists and gets a permanent Greater Magic Fang instead (commercially purchased).
The problem with Permanency is that it only takes one unlucky Dispel Magic to make 10,000 gp go down the toilet. :-(
Instead of switching to a quarterstaff, Melvin 1.2 gets rid of Amulet of Mighty Fists and gets a permanent Greater Magic Fang instead (commercially purchased).The problem with Permanency is that it only takes one unlucky Dispel Magic to make 10,000 gp go down the toilet. :-(
The build was for the purpose of the excercise on this thread.
In actual gameplay I would only suggest the permanency if you can get your hands on a high level casting of Magic Fang. Also a ring of counterspells (dispel Magic) would be a good 4,000 gp investment.
Normally I would just recommend the Monk get a party member to cast either Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang on you as needed (or buy them 600 gp scrolls as required if they're stingy).
of course, normally we would be looking at a Wand of Mage Armor for 750gp rather than 9,000gp bracers that don't work as well.
However, the rules of the thread prohibit help from other party members.
Quick issues:
Melvin 1.1 is overgeared by 13K. Drop 13K of gear and suddenly he's AC 21, so he's taking ~20-25% more melee damage than the rest of the melee examples, with no particular ability to soak or mitigate that
Note that Melvin 1.1 is wasting 8,000 gp by enhancing both ends of his quarterstaff, so he can ditch that as well as his Ioun stone (or he can downgrade his Ring of Deflection, whichever). His AC would only drop by one (still not great).
Melvin 1.1 is overgeared by 13K. Melvin 1.2 is breaking the rules (consumables, man). You keep saying "We can throw more money at that problem, easy" but there's no money to spend.
Standard wealth by level in magic items
PC Level* Wealth
2 1,000 gp
3 3,000 gp
4 6,000 gp
5 10,500 gp
6 16,000 gp
7 23,500 gp
8 33,000 gp
9 46,000 gp
10 62,000 gp
I was using the above chart which states a 10th level character is expected to have 62,000 gp in magic items.
Which reference was I supposed to have used?
If I was to just substitute from the original Melvin 1.0:
Gear:
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
Belt of +4 str
Handy Haversack
Hat of +2 wis
Ring of Protection +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
Mwk sling
700 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
I would dump the Amulet and replace with the staff. This saves 3,700 gp. (Naturally, we have to switch the feats to Melvin 1.1 to work with the staff)
Then I would dump the Sling (useless) for an easy 300 gp.
Cloak of Resistance gets downgraded to +1. Even with the reduced cloak, Melvin has better saves than the other builds. That gains 3,000gp
That nets 7,000gp. Pick up Bracers of Armor +2 (4,000), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000) which leaves 1,000 for booze and whores.
That gets AC up to 21 base. No longer a one round kill for a Fire giant.
Note that Melvin 1.1 is wasting 8,000 gp by enhancing both ends of his quarterstaff, so he can ditch that as well as his Ioun stone (or he can downgrade his Ring of Deflection, whichever). His AC would only drop by one (still not great).
I realize a common interpretation of Flurry is that you can use it with one weapon.
However, it's not my interpretation, which is why I enchanted both ends.
If MiB shares your interpreation, then go ahead and spend it elsewhere.
This DPR is wrong.
I took Melvin 1.1's average damage (17.5)
Divided by Melvin 1.0's damage (19.5)
To get: 0.89743 (approx)
Then multiplied Melvin 1.0's numbers by that factor.
Since all their attack modifiers are the same (only thing difference is 2 less average damage on a hit) - why didn't that work? Are you assuming flank with Melvin 1.0?
Melvin 1.2 with PA.
Unarmed +14/+14/+9/+9 2d6+14 (19-20/x2)His average damage per round is ~57.78.
I'm using a slightly different system for DPR calculation. . .
We're up against AC 24. I think you have Improved Critical at 10th level.
To hit AC 24, you need to roll a 10 (.55), 10 (.55), 15 (.30), and 15 (.30)
To gain a crit bonus, you need to threat (.10) and confirm the threat (same as a hit), so for each hit:
.10 * .55, .10 * .55, .10 * .30, .10 * .30
Chance to get extra damage from crits per hit: 0.055, 0.055, 0.03, 0.03
Damage output: 2d6 + 14 or 21 points on average, +21 points on a crit.
Now, multiply the damage output by the chances to get damage per hit:
.55 * 21 + .55 * 21 + .30 * 21 + .30 * 21 + 0.055 * 21 + 0.055 * 21 + 0.03 * 21 + 0.03 * 21
11.55 + 11.55 + 6.3 + 6.3 + 1.155 + 1.155 + 0.63 + 0.63 = 39.27 damage/round
By the way, I don't know whether to be pleased or disappointed that no one has made a tengu character just to squeeze in an extra natural attack. ;-)
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On the Bad save the fireball does...Quick question in case I missed something: Where did the DC on the fireball come from? I don't see greater spell focus and the empower feat doesn't raise the DC.
Ah, cack. I originally started looking at using cone of cold, and when fishing around for a wizard bonus feat realised that I could take empower and push it up a bit. I obviously forgot to drop the DC for fireball.
Should take about 5% off the fireball amount (10% drop in pass, 1/2 of which will come back)
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By the way, I don't know whether to be pleased or disappointed that no one has made a tengu character just to squeeze in an extra natural attack. ;-)
Likely because, for everything that's been done so far, it's not worth the +2 to any ability score and +1 feat that humans give.
There's only been a few non humans. I suspect your post will lead to someone making an tengu, though. If it wasn';t a horribly unoptimized choice, I'd suggest a tengu barbarian, go for two bite attacks.
Also, while the monsters-as-PCs rules are borked for generic monsters (try making a troll as a PC, for instance), there are about a half dozen fellows in the Bestiary that have PC Race stats listed right there, including the Aasimar, Tiefling, Goblin, Kobold, Hobgoblin, Merfolk, and Tengu. So I think these guys should be on the table. If anything, they are a little underpowered.
I don't have time at the moment - going to pick up my wife in about half an hour, but
What about using a Barbarian dip of 2 levels for Rage and Rage power (animal fury), then mix it with 8 levels of Hulky style TWF Rogue?
The added Str, +1 Net BAB and extra attack from Rage would certainly be worth the 1d6 sneak attack.
Also, he then qualifies for Improved Crit as the 9th level feat.
Of course, if the thread's point is to compare various classes offensive output - then multiclassing probably defeats the point.
Yeah, PF screwed with WBL, I've been using the 49K from 3.5 this whole time. >:| Hellfire and damnation, I may need to start from scratch.
So I did not use too much - you used too little. WOOHOO!
Melvin 1.0's corrected DPR: ~36.47. With a ki pop, he does 48.26. An extra +1 to hit is worth 3.9 DPR (~4.88 DPR with a ki pop), an extra +1 to damage is worth 1.70 DPR (2.25 DPR with a ki pop), and an extra attack is worth ~11.80 DPR
It turns out I was assuming that Melvin 1.0 got 2.7 hits a round, when he only gets 1.7. This threw all the math out of whack. No wonder.
So Melvin 1.1 and 1.2 had damage numbers off because I based them on Melvin 1.0's incorrect numbers.
Vindicated again! WOOHOO!
One I share, because the alternative is really dumb. You don't need an offhand weapon for a class that never makes offhand attacks.
Cool - that's 8,000gp more to spend.
I would switch to a Nunchaku - because using one end of a staff exclusively seems weird to me.
So, the Melvin 1.1 Magic Item list would look like:
Nunchaku +3 (18,302)
Belt of +4 str (10,000)
Handy Haversack (2,000)
Hat of +2 wis (4,000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000)
Bracers of Armor +2 (4,000)
Amulet of Natural armor +1 (2,000)
Booze and whores (698) (one less trip to the $2 whore)
Total: 43,000 (Which is what I believe Melvin 1.0 had total)
I believe that will up the DPR. +1 to hit and damage per attack to be precise.
how much does that improve his DPR numbers to?
Melvin 1.1 and 1.2 had damage numbers off because you didn't do the math yourself, you goon! Don't blame me because you're lazy! XD
Why would I do the math myself if you'll do it for me?
Then I get to be lazy AND pass the buck when the math is wrong.
We call that WIN - WIN!
P.S.
Where's those Melvin 1.1.1 DPR numbers? LOL
P.P.S.
Although he's not going to be a powerhouse, I do think Melvin 1.1.1 is going to be playable. That's something.
When's the pathfinder edition of Melvin coming out?As soon as someone redoes this entire thread to use 62K WBL instead of 49K.
There's really not a whole lot that the extra 13k can get you that will make an impact AND isn't already restricted by your consumable/limited times per day/ situational parameters. Maybe make the main hand weapon of all the TWF builds a +3 instead of a +2?
It's more likely that 13k would be spent on defensive upgrades, as most of the examples you've posted so far are still sporting +1 and +2 rings and cloaks and such at 10th level.
Thanks for putting this much time and effort in, I'm really interested in seeing how some of these stack up against the others. I'd offer to help, but I'm feeling lazy at the moment. Either way, your work, like Treantmonk's work on the handbooks, is highly appreciated.
The formula is hd+tchd. This can be expressed as hd(1+tc), and we'll do that to simplify the arithmatic. Without a ki, the damage is:
2(.55)(17.5)(1+[2][.05]) + 2(.3)(17.5)(1+[2][.05])
21.175 + 11.55
Melvin 1.1 does an average of ~32.73 DPR.
When he pops a ki, it adds an additional (.55)(17.5)(1+[2][.05]) damage, or ~10.59 damage, for a total of ~43.31 DPR.
According to your guidelines, shouldn't the value of his crit multiplier be 1 instead of 2, and his crit chance be 10% since he threatens on a 19 or 20?
I know the answer would be the same, but I really want to make sure I am doing this right before I go posting anything.
I know the answer would be the same
That's what it boils down to. :) Think of it as counting how many extra .05's he gets, regardless of whether they're from increased threat range or increased multiplier. The only time you have to pay any special attention is if your threat range includes numbers which aren't actually hits, which shouldn't be the case in any of these examples.
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I wasn't happy with Druid Dan. Made a couple quick changes - most notably - I had him use greater magic fang (over and over again)
Beyond that, I switched the Amulet of Mighty Fists (now redundant) to do flaming damage instead (for an extra 1d6 on attacks).
Hopefully I did the math right - I showed my work, so if it's wrong, it should be easy to correct.
His base damage increased to 64.13 per round.
Note that he can get more than this on a charge (due to pounce and rake)
I'm not going to have time to plug in the numbers for a charging attack damage - but I expect it should be pretty sweet.
Check for errors - I'm rushing like a madman this morningl.
Druid Dan 2.0:
Druid Dan 2.0, human Druid 10
Ability Scores:
STR: 26 (+8) (15 base + 1 lvl +4 wildshape + 4 magic +2 human)
DEX: 10 (+0) (12 base – 2 wildshape)
CON: 14 (+2 ) (13 +1 lvl )
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 18 (+4) (14 base +4 item)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 78 HP (10d8+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +10 Ref: +4 Will: +12
AC: 27 - Touch 9, Flatfooted 27 (+10 (+1 fullplate), +4 Natural Armor +4 Barkskin-1 size)
Attacks:
Bite +17 (-1 size +8 str + 7 BAB +2 Magic +1 WF) 3d6 + 9
2 Claws +17 2d4+1d6+10
2Rakes ** +16 2d4+1d6+10
1(.65)(19.5)(1+[1][.05]) + 2(.65)(18.5)(1+[1][.05])
38.561
Pounce
1(.75)(19.5)(1+[1][.05] + 2(.75)(18.5)(1+[1](.05) +2(.70)(18.5)(1+[1](.05)
71.69
Special Attacks:
Rake, Pounce, Grab
Class Abilities:
Wildshape (Dire Tiger)
Full caster
BAB: +7 CMB: +16 CMD: 26
Feats:
Improved Natural Attack
Weapon Focus (Claws)
Weapon Focus (Bite)
Natural Spell
Heavy Armor proficiency
Power Attack
Gear:
19,300 +1 Wild Fullplate (Dragonhide)
5,000 Amulet of Mighty Fists (Flaming strike)
16,000 Belt of Giant Str +4
16,000 Headband of Wisdom +4
2,000 Handy Haversack
1,000 Cloak of Resistance +1
2,000 Barding +1 chainshirt
700 gp of misc stuff
Buffs:
Barkskin
(Barkskin on AC, 3x GMF on AC)
Greater Magic Fang x6 (All claws and bite)
Allan the Animal Companion:
Big cat Animal Companion
Ability Scores:
STR: 24 (+7) (13 base +8 size +3 dru)
DEX: 19 (+4) (17 base – 2 size +4 dru)
CON: 16 (+3 ) (13 +2 size +1 lvl)
INT: 3 ( 2 +1 Lvl)
WIS: 15 (+2) (15 base )
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 76 HP (9d8+36)
Saving Throws
Fort: +6 Ref: +6 Will: +2
AC: 31 - Touch 13, Flatfooted 27 (5 armor +4 Dex +9 Natural Armor +4 Barkskin -1 size)
Attacks:
Bite +16 (-1 size +7 str + 7 BAB +2 Magic) 1d6 + 10
2 Claws +17 1d4+10(add weapon focus)
2Rakes ** +16 1d4+10
1(.60)(13.5)(1+[1][.05]) + 2(.65)(12.5)(1+[1][.05])
25.57
Pounce
1(.70)(13.5)(1+[1][.05]) + 2(.75)(12.5)(1+[1][.05]) +2(.70)(12.5)(1+[1][.05])
47.99
Special Attacks:
Rake, Pounce, Grab
BAB: +6 CMB: +13 CMD: 27
Feats:
Armor Prof Light
Toughness
Weapon Focus (Claws)
Power Attack
Edit: If charging - Druid Dan and Allan the Animal Companion do 119.68
I think that's the best melee damage so far...
That's one nasty Druid you got there Treantmonk :)
And, Man in Black, I love this thread.
Can't wait until you cough up the ranger and barbarian.
Thanks for all the hard work in here.
-TDL
That's one nasty Druid you got there Treantmonk :)
And, Man in Black, I love this thread.
Can't wait until you cough up the ranger and barbarian.
Thanks for all the hard work in here.
-TDL
Not my Druid - I just tweaked it.
Personally, in actual gameplay I would suggest not telling your DM you want to buy enchanted Tiger barding. Really, most of the time it would be easier to get a Mage Armor for Allan. (And use that extra feat slot for improved grapple or something)
But to fit the rules of the thread - it works.
That's one nasty Druid you got there Treantmonk :)
And, Man in Black, I love this thread.
Can't wait until you cough up the ranger and barbarian.
Thanks for all the hard work in here.
-TDL
Not my Druid - I just tweaked it.
Personally, in actual gameplay I would suggest not telling your DM you want to buy enchanted Tiger barding. Really, most of the time it would be easier to get a Mage Armor for Allan. (And use that extra feat slot for improved grapple or something)
But to fit the rules of the thread - it works.
It's still a badass druid .. I keep getting hit by the proverbial surprise truck .. most classes have come quite a way since 1st edition :)
And, sometimes you have to be creative with your GM :)
-TDL
I wasn't happy with Druid Dan. Made a couple quick changes - most notably - I had him use greater magic fang (over and over again)
Beyond that, I switched the Amulet of Mighty Fists (now redundant) to do flaming damage instead (for an extra 1d6 on attacks).
Hopefully I did the math right - I showed my work, so if it's wrong, it should be easy to correct.
His base damage increased to 64.13 per round.
Note that he can get more than this on a charge (due to pounce and rake)
I'm not going to have time to plug in the numbers for a charging attack damage - but I expect it should be pretty sweet.
Check for errors - I'm rushing like a madman this morningl.
** spoiler omitted **...
Some of your math was off in both detrimental and beneficial areas (as you said, you were rushing). Based on the fixed math, the DPR on a charge round should be ~124.59.
Let's go with a classic: 2h fighter. At this point, falchion is noticeably better than greatsword when he's power attacking and slightly worse the rest of the time, but since he's power attacking pretty much all the time he's going with the falchion. With two more base damage from buffs, conditions, etc., falchion pulls ahead all the time.
** spoiler omitted **
His attack routine with Power Attack is:
+3 falchion +20/+15, 2d4+25 dmg (15-20/x2)His average damage per round is 59.25. A +1 to hit is worth 3.90 DPR (actually slightly less because crits on the first attack are already confirming on a 2+), a +1 to damage is worth 1.71 DPR, and an additional attack is worth 34.95 DPR.
For the heck of it, I thought I'd see how a tripping fighter might do, so I retooled Falchion Fred into Scythe Fred:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 14 (+2)
WIS: 10 (+0)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 79 HP (10d10+20)
Saving Throws
Fort: +10 Ref: +7 Will: +7 (+9 against fear, 1/day reroll)
AC: 24 - Touch ?, Flatfooted ? (+10 +1 full plate, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: scythe +23/+18, 2d4+16 dmg (19-20/x4)
power attack +20/+15, 2d4+25 dmg
Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (heavy blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Armor Training 2
BAB: +10 CMB: +16 (+27 trip w/scythe) CMD: 28
Feats:
Weapon Focus (scythe) [h]
Iron Will [1]
Step Up [f1]
Power Attack [f2]
Improved Iron Will [3]
Weapon Specialization (scythe) [f4]
Combat Expertise [5]
Improved Trip [f6]
Greater Trip [7]
Improved Critical (scythe) [f8]
Lunge [9]
Greater Weapon Focus (scythe) [f10]
Skills:
Some stuff
Gear:
+3 scythe
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
1000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
He's basically identical, but with +4 Int, -2 Con and Wis, and the tripping feats instead of Dodge, Improved Init, and Critical Focus.
The problem: what is a good target CMD for a CR 10 monster? Looking through the CR 10 monsters in the Bestiary, they fell into two basic categories: untrippable (e.g. snake-like or Huge+ in size) or easy to trip (e.g. giants and dragons). The average CMD of the trippable monsters was 31.33, which I rounded up to 32 (trippable 80% of the time).
Against trippable enemies, the damage per round I calculated was 59.28 (80% chance of 68.25, 20% chance of 23.4). A +1 to attack adds 4.2 dmg, and an extra attack adds 36.27 dmg*.
Against untrippable enemies (I assumed that he doesn't even try if it's impossible), I calculated 56.55 damage per round. A +1 to attack adds 3.9 dmg, and an extra attack adds 33.15 dmg.
Note that Scythe Fred is one point worse in terms of AC, Reflex saves and Fort saves, and he has fewer hit points than Falchion Fred as well. On the up side, his Greater Trip feat can help his buddies get an extra hit in whenever it triggers, so it can come in handy (depending on how many melee fighters there are in his party).
*I worked on the assumption that he would attempt to trip exactly once per round. I.e., if he failed, he wouldn't try to trip a second time. YMMV.
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The problem: what is a good target CMD for a CR 10 monster? Looking through the CR 10 monsters in the Bestiary, they fell into two basic categories: untrippable (e.g. snake-like or Huge+ in size) or easy to trip (e.g. giants and dragons).It only gets worse in a level or two, and after level 13 there's basically nothing that can be tripped but non-flying classed humanoids.
After level 13, there's basically no monsters, period (just a few outsiders and various different colours and ages of dragons).
After level 13, there's basically no monsters, period (unless you count various different colours and ages of dragons).Dragons fly, flying creatures don't trip.
(a) I didn't say you could trip flying creatures, I just said that there are barely any CR 13+ creatures in the Bestiary (38, out of which 14 are dragons).
(b) Some of the dragons listed in the Bestiary are sort of mediocre at hovering (i.e. less than +15 Fly with no Hover feat), so they would pretty much have to land to do a full attack (in which case they could be tripped).
(c) But the CR 13+ dragons listed in the Bestiary are all size Huge (or larger), so it's a moot point because a Medium-sized fighter can't trip them anyways.
well, i feel like it had to be done.
** spoiler omitted **
Full attack with PA, Heroism (lvl 3), Keen edge (lvl 3), Greater magic weapon (lvl 3), arcane strike, false life (lvl 2), overland flight (lvl 5)
+2(+1) falchion of speed +15/+15, 2d4+21 dmg (15-20/x2)
irving is sitting at 40.56 DPR. +1 to hit is worth 2.6 DPR, +1 to damage is worth 1.56 DPR, an extra attack, though i have no idea how you'd actually manage to get it, is 20.28 additional DPR.
lol ... I actually like this one for all it's strangeness :D
-TDL