Ok I was wondering about using a 0/0 level pc for first level. Now I loved 3.0's apprentices level pc's however pathfinder gets more stuff, well 3.5 got more to. So heres the deal I need to know what all a oth level pathfinder wizard would get fighter would be unchanged.
So 3.0 oth level wizard got
BAB=+0 FORT=+0 REF=+0 WIL=+1 Spells oth=2 1st=0
3.0 1st level wizrd got
BAB=+0 FORT=+0 REF=+0 WIL=+1 Summon familiar ,scribe scrolls spells oth=3 1st=1
Now pf wizard also gets school powers as well but was thinking that they should only get cantrips at first level and not the school powers any thoughts?
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I, too, love the 3.0 apprentice rules. I'm currently running a PF playtest here on the boards (Iskandria: Land of a Thousand Ziggurats), and we've got an apprentice Ranger 0/Abjurer 0.
Here's how I did apprentice abilities for wizards (note this is for Alpha 3, I haven't looked to see if anything's changed in Beta yet):
BAB+0, Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0
0-level class abilities: Cantrips (prepare 2, cast 4/day), School power (specialist bonus only)
Spells per Day: L0: 2, 1st: 0
At 1st level, the BAB and Saves go up, they gain Arcane Bond, full Cantrips at will, 1st level School Power, and Scribe Scroll
Spells per Day: L0: 3, 1st: 1
Just another vote for apprentice rules. We never understood why they were dropped between 3.0 and 3.5 anyways. The concept always made more sense to our group than starting as a 1st level fighter and then suddenly picking up a level of wizard, something that usually requires years of studying and dedication. The apprentice rules made a lot more sense when creating character backgrounds/history for those that planned on multiclassing.
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I like the idea of apprentices too, especially from a story telling angle.
But consider this. Now that the x4 skill points at 1st level is gone, there is no longer a huge incentive to take any particular class at first level, or conversely, any huge disincentive against taking any particular class. I always had a problem before because I wanted characters to start out as Commoners or Expert who got dragged into becoming heroes, but in 3.5 starting at level 1 as a Commoner meant you missed out on all those juicy 1st level skill points that Rogues and other folks got at 1st level. Now with Pathfinder, no more x4, just +3 to class skills, but you get that regardless of what level you start taking levels in a class. SO, my point is, PCs can start as 1st level Commoners, Experts, Adapts or whatever, then start taking levels in heroic classes. There's no penalty anymore, no skill or anything that get lost forever because you picked a less-than-optimal class for 1st level. As far as level adjustment, one level of an NPC class wouldn't even be worth 1/2 a real class level, so no power creep or balance issues. It's all good.
So would that take care of the need for apprentice levels?
PS- I've always thought there should be a NPC class for each of the basic core classes: fighter/warrior, wizard/adept, cleric/acolyte, rogue/thief. Kind of a non-heroic version of each class for everyone else.
well for me it's more that a fighter/mage is a first level pc not a fighter with a mage tacked on or a wizard with a fighter tacked on. And what of things like cleric/rogue or bard/druid or the like some concepts dont just fit on class .
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well for me it's more that a fighter/mage is a first level pc not a fighter with a mage tacked on or a wizard with a fighter tacked on. And what of things like cleric/rogue or bard/druid or the like some concepts dont just fit on class .
That sound more like the stuff about being dual classes (maybe that's not the right name?) than apprentice levels to me. I wasn't that interested when I first saw it but I've seen somewhere where they took two classes and blended them together so you were a 1st level fighter/wizard and a 2nd level fighter/wizard. Maybe it was just for demi-humans though.
I think of apprentice levels as being like 0 level before 1st level in the same class, not something someone would blend into a different class. (I'm not saying I'm "correct" or anything, just that I seem to be coming at it from a different angle. Always good to clarify!)
EDIT - looking back at the original post I see what you are talking about now. You DID say a 0/0 level PC, but because you only talked about what to do with the wizard, I got confused.
eh sorry I tend to confuse folks. Yeah 0/0 is what I meant but most often I have seen it be wizard/? more then say barbarian/cleric or something. I tend to use it more like duel classing however leveling in one classes then the other all the way to 10/10. But I tend to feel that multiclass that start out after years of traing more suit 0/0 then hey look i found this here spell book 5 days back...ding i gained a level look im a wizard now. same with a druid/cleric/monk i always found it odd ya could just add on a level . But thats not really the point sometimes i just want to start off as a fighter.rogue or a barbarian/monk or something ya know
I liked the idea of the apprentice levels as well. Combine this with the dragon articles about multi-classing progressions from way back (I think it was in 3.0 days, but may be wrong. Can´t access the dragondex right now.), and multiclassing might make much more sense than just piling powers. I still fondly remember the Half-Orc Barbarian/Bard I had as a PC in one campaign - we called that a War Drummer, and I built the progression for it. He started out as Barbarian/Bard level 0/0, and progressed from there, with about one fourth or one third being bard levels. The idea was exactly that he had both abilities from the start, and just needed to expand them, instead of just going "poof! Hey, I´m a Bard now!"
About special NPC classes (what mosaic wrote): well, we have the warrior already, the adept could double as clerical acolyte (perhaps tinkering a bit with spell selection and adding a power or two), and a common thief might be built as an expert.
Stefan
I just had to work on that idea today. Here is what I came up with. Overall, the apprentice-level characters are a little stronger than in the original version from 3.0, and they may not be balanced yet. Comment!
Zero-level multiclassing in PFRPG:
The original concept is from the 3.0 DMG, p40/41
I would keep the requirement that one of the classes has to be a favorite class for the race in question. With the new bonus for taking favorite class levels in PFRPG, I would grant it to the character in question. Perhaps the favorite class is automatically the primary class for the character, so this class would be used to determine hit points and skill points. Humans and half-elves still have the choice.
Regarding the bonuses from the classes according to table 2-22 on p. 40, I would grant the fighter classes a BAB of +1 only if a fighting class is the primary class, and otherwise +0. Save bonuses are halved. Weapon and armor proficiencies are from both classes.
Character level is counted as zero for each class.
Barbarian: gain fast movement and rage, with half the total of rage points (IOW, 2 + ½ Con mod)
Bard: bardic knowledge: add +1 to all knowledge checks, may check untrained. Cantrips: knows two cantrips.
Cleric: channel energy: normal damage, half as many uses a 1st level cleric would have. Orisons: two per day. Domains: both first-level domain powers are usable, Caster level is zero
Druid: Orisons: two per day. Nature Sense: full effect. Wild empathy: level zero
Fighter: Bonus feat
Monk: unarmed strike, wisdom Bonus to AC
Paladin: detect evil, smite evil
Ranger: favored enemy, wild empathy
Rogue: trapfinding
Sorcerer: Two cantrips known, first-level bloodline power
Wizard: Two cantrips per day, first level school ability.
Stefan
I was going to post about my experiences playing a 0/0 level Pathfinder monk/sorcerer, but you're my DM for that game so you probably know all about it. :-)
Barbarian: gain fast movement and rage, with half the total of rage points (IOW, 2 + ½ Con mod)
Bard: bardic knowledge: add +1 to all knowledge checks, may check untrained. Cantrips: knows two cantrips.
Cleric: channel energy: normal damage, half as many uses a 1st level cleric would have. Orisons: two per day. Domains: both first-level domain powers are usable, Caster level is zero
Druid: Orisons: two per day. Nature Sense: full effect. Wild empathy: level zero
Fighter: Bonus feat
Monk: unarmed strike, wisdom Bonus to AC
Paladin: detect evil, smite evil
Ranger: favored enemy, wild empathy
Rogue: trapfinding
Sorcerer: Two cantrips known, first-level bloodline power
Wizard: Two cantrips per day, first level school ability.
Haven't gone through and compared classes completely yet, but I wanted to point out a couple suggestions/comments..
Fighter - granting the bonus feat and +1 BAB if it is a favored class means they give up nothing as a 0-level character. Personally I think all the warrior classes should start with +0 BAB. Of course, that means a Fighter/Barbarian would jump from +0 to +2 at 2nd level, but I can live with that.
Cleric - instead of figuring out 1/2 the number of uses of Channel Energy why not just make it equal to their Charisma modifier.
Wizard - personally I would rather see them get their specialist ability instead of their 1st level ability, which course means the Universalist wouldn't get anything. Of course, that isn't necessarily a bad thing since they are already better than most of the specialist wizards :p
OK here is what i have toyed with
Class…….bab……..F…..R…..W……..SP………………………SPELLS
Fighter……+0…….+1…+0….+0………fighter feat………………none
Barb……….+0……+1….+0….+0……rage*,fast move…………….none
Pal…………+0……+1…+0…..+0…..detect evil. Aura of good ……none
Rang……….+0…….+1….+0…+0……fav enemy track…………..none
Wizard………0…….0…….0……1………Cantrips arcanebond……2/0**t
Sorc…………0……0……..0……1………Cantrips, eschew ……….2/2t
Cleric………..0…….1…….0……1……Channel energy orisons^…2/0t
Druid………...0…….1……0…….1……Nature sense, orisons………2/0t
Rogue……….0…….0…….1…….0……Trapfinding…………..……none
Bard…………0…....0……..1…….0…Bardic knowledge, cantrips….1/-t
Monk……….0……..1……..0…….1.unarmed strike, unarmed damage 1d6………………none
* Rage points are con mod only not 4+con mod
** specialist gain school power normally
^ level bases level is 0
^^ cleric gains only 1 domain
T spell caster can still cast bounes spells of 1st level based on high scores
tell me what ya think
Fighter - granting the bonus feat and +1 BAB if it is a favored class means they give up nothing as a 0-level character. Personally I think all the warrior classes should start with +0 BAB. Of course, that means a Fighter/Barbarian would jump from +0 to +2 at 2nd level, but I can live with that.
You are right with the fighter losing nothing for it. Perhaps especially for the fighter: BAB +1, nothing else? And not even barbarians, paladins and rangers would get that BAB, so this makes fighter a valuable choice for this. He is a trained fighter, after all, but did not complete his training yet, so no bonus feat. (BTW, on reaching 2nd character level, he would get no BAB bonus from his other class, so he would be still at +1)
Cleric - instead of figuring out 1/2 the number of uses of Channel Energy why not just make it equal to their Charisma modifier.Wizard - personally I would rather see them get their specialist ability instead of their 1st level ability, which course means the Universalist wouldn't get anything. Of course, that isn't necessarily a bad thing since they are already better than most of the specialist wizards :p
Clerics: I had halved the number of channelings so that clerics with low cha would have at least some.
Wizards: That is a better option indeed. The universalists don´t get a bonus, then.Stefan