Clebsch GM Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path

Game Master Clebsch73

When I've thrown alchemist's fire with a character before, I've only had it burn for one extra round. I've never had anyone rule that it keeps burning longer than that, but I admit I'm not sure of the exact rule as to whether someone could catch fire longer than one round from it.

Nowhere in the description of Alchemist's Fire does it say you are "on fire." Under a strict reading of the text of an ability, it doesnt do anythig except what it explicitly says it does.

If it were to actually set you on fire permanently until it's cleared, 20 gp alchemist's fire would be the end-all, be-all best attack at low level, better than most spells or other class abilities. At the very minimum if it hits, it would be a touch attack that does 1d6 fire damage that then costs an enemy an entire turn to clear if they make save. Even then, they are left prone. A DC 15 reflex save is no joke for level 1-2s. A dex rogue might have a 50% chance to make it at level 1 or 2.

On both a strict rules-as-written argument and on a game designer's intention argument, it only burns one turn afaic. If you want to rule it otherwise, I'm going to buy a couple dozen alchemist's fires next time we are in town.

Yeah. I have never seen a GM rule that it burns forever. The description of the item doesn't mention the "on fire" condition, or the usual rules for being on fire. It just says it deals an extra 1d6, one time, after the initial impact. I also think it would be way too strong if it had no duration, and if it's that much stronger than we were expecting, that's going to become Anarya's new default ranged attack for a few levels.

Yeah, absolutely, Anarya.

My in-universe assumption has always been that the liquid remains on you for a round as it continues to burn up the remaining liquid on you. While I can see the argument that it could set other stuff on your person on fire, reading it that way makes it suddenly become possibly the most powerful mundane item in the game.

Good arguments. You've convinced me. So although those without darkvision cannot see that the fire is going out, your knowledge of how such things work will probably make you assume it's not burning any longer.

I do wonder how this ruling is resolved with the statement in the section on catching on fire which says, "Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire." Alchemist's Fire certainly seems to qualify as similar to burning oil. It is a chemical that burns for at least 2 rounds. The first round the afflicted target automatically takes damage, instead of getting a saving throw to avoid it. So if on the next round, you get the same DC 15 reflex save to put out the fire, that would seem to me to imply that you are already on fire and will continue to be on fire until you put it out (as is clearly the way it works once you catch on fire). That is powerful, but it's also consistent with the game mechanics.

Thoughts? Is this just one of those quirky inconsistencies you live with for game balance, or is there some justification for why AF burns for 2 rounds but nothing on your person actually catches fire?

One could discourage the over-use of alchemist's fire by assuming whenever someone carrying AF take certain types of damage, there is a risk of the flask catching breaking.

Edit: I won't change my ruling in this case, but I think I'll post the question on the rules discussion board to see what others think.

I've looked through all of the references and it is just so ambiguous. I had always thought of it as more chemical burns that open flames, but now I'm questioning that.

If it is decided that it keeps burning, I am literally going to buy tons of it, as that DC 15 Reflex is really hard to hit for anyone not a rogue or monk.

It will be potent, but there are lots of things that keep it from being overpowering. Keep in mind, in this AP at least, you'll be dealing with a lot of demons, which have Resistance 10 to fire, so they'll consider AF a nice way to get rid of parasites. Even resistance 5, such as possessed by tieflings, will make it almost completely ineffective. And if people do stock up on it, I'll be sure to roll for breakage if/when appropriate situations call for it, so one will risk having the stuff ignite on oneself.

Edit: I am not going to have the enemy stock up on it to use on you in every battle. It just seemed an appropriate way to even the odds in this melee.

I think it is meant to be Greek Fire, which is a real thing, used by the ancient Greeks ('natch). It is two chemicals which ignite when mixed. So the flask simply has both chemicals in separate internal chambers and when it breaks, they mix and ignite.

Another argument for the possibility of catching fire: there is an entry in the FAQ about using lamp oil as a splash weapon. It requires a full round action to set and light a fuse and there is a 50% chance it won't light, but otherwise, the FAQ says it is handled exactly like alchemist's fire. And so when the "catching on fire" section of the environmental rules lists burning oil as a possible source of fire that can catch one on fire, this would imply another possible source is alchemists fire.

Another thing to keep in mind: rolling on the ground lowers the DC of the reflex save to 13 and others could aid, which I would runs as a DC 10 reflex save, so that can bring it down to 11 or 9. Anyone with some holy water or even regular water on hand can douse it automatically, and the cantrip create water also does the trick. So it's not certain death, just something that requires quick action, which seems realistic. If someone catches on fire, it needs to be dealt with quickly.

If one wants a rationale for limiting the number of rounds of burning, a compassionate GM (I hope I am one such) can consider what the character is wearing that can catch fire. Armor could reduce the amount of flammable material available to burn.

Also, it's only really dangerous for low level characters, who don't have the hit points to absorb a few rounds of 1d6 damage. When you guys are 5th level, you'll probably not worry about being on fire for a few rounds.

After a bit of research, I was rather bummed to find out that Arcane Trickster isn't much of an option for Franti. Charisma as my caster score means I wouldn't get 2nd spells till fourth level, and TWF limits some of my spell-casting potential. What a shame, could have been a real fun time going Archmage/Trickster.

So, now that I have control over my actions again, I'm debating Fullround Defense each turn until I'm in a better position, maybe even using that Invisibility potion if things get particularly grim before my turn starts.

Total defense is worthless if you are going to be flat-footed to your attackers because it's a dodge bonus, and you lose dodge bonuses when flat-footed.

I wouldn't be flat footed (unless they feint, even then it is just denied dex, not flanked), they'd just get a +2 Flanking Bonus. If flanking caused FF, me with Sap Master would become brutal, as all my flanking attacks would do 2x sneak attack damage. I should start indicating the differences in my attack for Denied Dex / Flat-Footed (invisible attack / attacking before they act+surprise rounds).

I've actually mistakingly marked things as FF before I've realized. Rogue things are still somewhat foreign to me (Attacking the snake on 1/2/15, woops, still missed).

Didn't think about flanking though, I'll have to throw myself in the corner of the room to not give them that +2, grit my teeth and hope no one rolls over a 21.

I am back and roused from the odinsleep lol. I'll have something up soon!

I am back and roused from the odinsleep lol. I'll have something up soon!

Maybe you can flank someone with me and promptly abandon me again ;)

...target rich environment!

Thank you, Tauni. This may not come as a surprise to you all, but playing a deaf character in complete darkness is not a particularly enjoyable experience.

(Also, the handsome bloodrager is in need of his healer. I'm coming, Karas!)

Thank you, Tauni. This may not come as a surprise to you all, but playing a deaf character in complete darkness is not a particularly enjoyable experience.

Yeah, it makes me think if I am going to use that tactic of throwing darkness (or light) into an area, I want to have marbles or caltrops. Cast it on one of them and then scatter the whole box/bag. It makes neutralizing it a step harder, though a blanket or cloak thrown over the area may do the trick there.

(Also, the handsome bloodrager is in need of his healer. I'm coming, Karas!)

"Bloodrager needs food, badly!"

Yeah, it makes me think if I am going to use that tactic of throwing darkness (or light) into an area, I want to have marbles or caltrops. Cast it on one of them and then scatter the whole box/bag. It makes neutralizing it a step harder, though a blanket or cloak thrown over the area may do the trick there.

...and that kind of clever trick is why we love you, Tauni. That's really brilliant - Tauni reminds me of Hermione Granger, a bit.

Lol bloodrager indeed needs good badly. Tricksy mongrels!

Gogo Tauni! Saving everybody by taking away the darkness :3

If Tauni is Hermione, then I guess Franti is Ron?

I didn't know you were a ginger, Franti ;)

Am I Ron because you are playing matchmaker again? Despite not being in the films, I feel as if Peeves the Ghost is most like Franti as far as Harry Potter universe.

Or Fred/George Weasley. So two out of three times, yes, I have a ginger soul, one out of three times I am a mischievous ghost. With alter self and maybe a potion or two, I can be all three.

I'd love to play a Gilderoy Lockhart-like fighter, a faux-noble glory-seeker who just lies and claims other's victories as his own. Would probably play try to go to the Sword Lord or duelist prestige classes. I doubt it'd work in this campaign (the ol' "have to be good" thing) unless I gave him a heart-of-gold and aspiration to be what he claims he is.

Either Iomedae or the Paizo.com die roller is a fan of the Anarya/Karas shipping, and doesn't want that ship sunk by having the tiefling die this early... man those are some good rolls.

LMAO, ya... that just happened.

That was awesome!

And thanks for the comparison to Hermoine. That has to be one of the best compliments I have received in the RPG realm. :)

Say we reach 20th level + tenth mythic tier. THings get crazy, right? Because I love retraining rules, here is what you can do at the point. This isn't even getting into travel, magic item creation, et cetera.

Select a number of creatures equal to half your tier or fewer within close range (25 feet + 5 feet per 2 caster levels). Mythic time stop has the same effect on these creatures as it does on you, allowing them to act for the same number of rounds of apparent time that you can. You and these creatures can all interact with one another normally while time appears to be stopped.

Augmented (10th): If you expend three uses of mythic power, the duration increases to 1 hour per level of apparent time. You and other affected creatures gain no benefit from rest or sleep while the spell is active.

We have around 23 mythic power points and lets say someone takes Mythic Time Stop. That would allow them to gain an apparent time of an additional 140 hours in seven rounds if they go nova, or around six days over the course of 42 seconds. If we have ambrosia (10k, replenishes mythic points), we can pump this up to near infinite uses, but lets say we spend a few real time minutes doing this.

If we do this 24 times at the cost of 240,000 gold for ambrosia (40,000 six ways, and we all can be targets for the spell), we have 144? days over the course of around seventeen minutes. That is enough for full class retraining, 46 additional hitpoint via retraining, complete feat selection, 20 possible languages learned, 28 skill points relocated, 70 spells swapped or some combination of all of these. Even without spending money on the ambrosia, we can get seven apparent days for the price of one.

Crazy. This would be your Time-Turner I guess, Tauni. It is a good thing I'm not the Archmage, I'd have to struggle to not find ways to break it ;)

I tend not to be too much of a power gamer, so even if I did catch this loophole on my own, I probably wouldn't use it. But we'll see how things play out...

Every word on this AP is that you dont need to power-game it because of mythic, so I'm trying not to push it too much. Having played this character before from 3-11 in PFS (skipped first two levels due to GM credit), I have a good sense of what her strengths and weaknesses are and how I might tweak them in an AP.

For example, having an actual wizard and a consistent party makes picking spells easier for me than in PFS because I can be more specialized and not spread as thin, as I don't have to worry about covering every contingency. She's an evocation-focused blaster without one of the bloodlines more suited to it (could you imagine Orc Bloodline Avelina? Haha), which tends to not be the most optimal anyways. If we start getting too OP, I'll probably refocus the build towards more fun options.

Yeah, I am definitely not going to be overly strong/optimized for the purposes of balance (though nothing will stop me from becoming a Dex-King), dropped the idea of an Intimidation/Shattering Defenses build as I am afraid it would add a bit too much damage and debuff. Still though, amazing potential for such things. If my character wasn't so trick/joke oriented, I could make for a crazy Fleet Warrior build I am sure.

Of course, of course. Though, I'm not going to lie, that -1 will save does make me nervous, Franti hehe.

Since you mentioned it, I will probably be intimidating people all the time at higher levels. There's a few bloodline abilities I get that let me do it as an immediate under certain conditions, and a mythic power I can take that lets me do it as a move action all the time. It would make Shatter Defenses even more viable for you!

Being a bloodrager, I'm already at a defensive disadvantage. Pretty much going to be a glass cannon and I'm going to need some things to overcome Dr later.

You will catch up later on when you start getting your spell list. Being able to keep Shield up, as well as cast things like Mirror Image and Displacement, means that you have some quite nice defensive options.

Until then, you are tanking with your face, so go for as much HP as possible!

And stay on Anarya's good side!

Even if he doesn't, Avelina will do her best to make it seem as though he did :)

She's goiing to actually put some points into bluff soon, after all....

I will be posting later today. Sorry for the delay.

Given that you're forming a budding romantic connection to the oracle who is slowly transforming into an aasimar-shaped portal to the positive energy plane... I'll keep you on your feet, Karas.

I'm a natural optimizer in PFS, though I tone it down for home games. Anarya was originally conceived as a vehicle to exploit the insanely-powerful Aasimar Oracle favored class bonus, to skyrocket her channel energy dice (and saving throw DC) into the stratosphere and just wreck everything with Mythic Alignment Channel. With variant channeling (dazes anyone who fails the save) coupled with a DC that's about 12 points higher (from various bonuses) than the adventure expects it to be, that original build would have been unstoppable.

Without the FCB (which got nerfed into oblivion, becoming useless), she's reduced in power to a "mere" mythic heirophant healing build (which is highly impressive on its own). Relatively early on, my healing magic (spells and channel) will be able to resurrect people who've died in the last round (as breath of life). And at higher tiers, I can die and keep healing people other than myself for several rounds.

On the flipside... Anarya is actually probably going to get more and more martial and combat-focused as she gains in level. She might even take levels in paladin, or Holy Vindicator.

I am very curious and a little nervous about how things will get when you guys start getting some mythic tiers under your belts. My advice is don't try to gain some combination of things that will make you invincible, since I'll just need to either ban certain things or make your enemies able to deal with the abilities. Think about what you'd like the character to be able to do well and maybe go for versatility over power.

Another GM has a list of possible adjustments to the rules to tone down the over-balancing possibilities of the mythic rules. I intend to consider using any of them as needed. You can look over the list here, checking under the spoiler that says, "Mythic Nerf List:."

The goal is to have maximum fun. So if destroying enemies in one round even when they are super powerful creatures is not your idea of fun, then don't go there. I think having lots of healing power is not a bad thing, as that's relatively easy to counteract with more damage causing elements. I do look forward to seeing what happens and everyone has started out with characters that have a lot of room to grow and concepts for how the personalities can evolve. That's going to be the most fun to me.

Just on a first glance, I support all of those rules changes, particularly the ones that improve player action economy. This game is won and lost by action economy, and mythic as written makes it too easy for PCs (who almost always have action economy advantage anyways) to completely wipe the floor with enemies.

Karas was originally built as an experiment to see if a bloodrager Dragon disciple would be fun. Dragon form will actually put me at a disadvantage due to gaining vulnerability to fire but spell cans augment that.

Disciple will also make up for star deficiency and mythic on top of that to make me a natural powerhouse.

Also the Karas Anarya ship is fun since he'll become essentially a silver Dragon himself and I'm rather enjoying the 2 sheltered characters beginning to form a bond and more lol.

I'm fine however you rule on the mythic stuff, DM. I've never played it before, so I don't even think I could blunder into a OP build. I'll be asking for everyone's advice as we enter that distinct area, including you DM, so I'll want all of us to chime in for Ellena at least.

I'm sure we'll all settle into a level of power in mythic that we're all comfortable with. Nobody's going to try to break the system, and I think we'll all be happy to tone our characters down if we stumble onto something that just wrecks the balance of combat.

I'm beginning the PFS module Destiny of the Sands #3 just now, which grants some temporary mythic powers, so I'll get a taste of the system.

Why does the dice roller hate Ellena so? It vexes me, lol!

What language are you using for abyssal?

Actually, I was at -10 before, so my total damage is at 22 now. Just a little closer to death.

I was saving my last cure light wounds just for you, Franti!

I can't delay while unconscious, can I?

Lol can anyone identify that script? I'd like to respond in kind but don't know which language that was used.

શું તમે વિશે , ચાંદી -છોકરો વાત કરવામાં આવે છે? Gujarati, it seems.