|
"You can recall pertinent facts on topics that aren't your speciality. Your proficiency bonus to untrained skill checks to Recall Knowledge (RK) is equal to your level instead of +0."
1. So if an investigator is Lv7, they get their STAT bonus appropriate for the skill plus their level. So if it was an INT based Skill and their stat bonus for INT was +5, their KR will be +12 (7+5) ?
2. Can other bonuses; items, circumstances etc be added to the KR bonus?
3. KR is used for skills that the investigator doesn't have already, is that correct?
4. Re 3 above when it comes to LORE SKILLS can the investigator use KR on any specific/obscure LORE RK roll they choose (subject to GM's approval)?
5. EXAMPLE - Instead of rolling an ARCANA RK roll, WRT to an Air Elemental, can the investigator roll RK using Air Elemental Lore via KR, which as it's so specific should be advantageous?
6. Can the investigator use KR for deciphering languages they don't know?
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. It's GM fiat.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
4. Re 3 above when it comes to LORE SKILLS can the investigator use KR on any specific/obscure LORE RK roll they choose (subject to GM's approval)?
5. EXAMPLE - Instead of rolling an ARCANA RK roll, WRT to an Air Elemental, can the investigator roll RK using Air Elemental Lore via KR, which as it's so specific should be advantageous?
Note that "subject to GM approval" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. There's GMs that dislike when someone tries to claim they can use literally every hyper specific lore that could possibly exist.
This comes up most often with Untrained Improvisation where "this general feat makes me better at identifying creatures than someone who is expert in 4 skills does" just feels ridiculous. It arguably makes more sense to let a class feature do it.
But don't make the assumption that this is going to fly to get the very specific lore bonus for literally every single check you ever make.
6. Can the investigator use KR for deciphering languages they don't know?
Decipher Writing is the closest thing to this as it mentions languages you don't know.
It is not a Recall Knowledge, so no. Keen Recollection is RK specific, anything that isn't that doesn't qualify.
On question 4, the answer is as you note "Yes with GM approval" but in general as a GM (and I think many others) only allow people to actually use Lore knowledges if you've invested to be at least trained in it.
Otherwise you in theory get a reduced DC using a lore you don't actually have. It just shouldn't work in my opinion but let's not debate here, as you seem to understand appropriately.
On question 5, again yes but see above. If I was your GM I wouldn't let Keen Recollection apply to Lore in general.
But don't make the assumption that this is going to fly to get the very specific lore bonus for literally every single check you ever make.
ABSOLUTELY! To me this falls into the "Too good to be true" category. You're already getting an ability that let's you treat every skill associated with recalling knowledge as "trained-ish" (I mean technically you add your level instead of level +2, but it's not 0).
As a GM, I'm definitely not letting you pretend to have every lore to get a lower DC.
For an example of something that does (kind of work) like you're wanting look at the Thaumaturge's Esoteric Lore with Diverse Lore feat.
Your experience with the unknown has taught you about strange phenomena of every kind. You become trained in Esoteric Lore, a special lore skill that can be used to Recall Knowledge regarding haunts, curses, and creatures of any type, but that can't be used to Recall Knowledge of other topics. Unlike a normal Lore skill, you use Charisma as your modifier on Esoteric Lore checks. You also gain the Dubious Knowledge skill feat.
At 3rd level, you become an expert in Esoteric Lore; at 7th level, you become a master in Esoteric Lore; and at 15th level, you become legendary in Esoteric Lore.
Your wandering studies mean you've heard rumors or theories about almost every topic... though admittedly, your sources aren't always the most reliable. You can take a –2 penalty to your check to Recall Knowledge with Esoteric Lore to Recall Knowledge about any topic, not just the usual topics available for Esoteric Lore. Additionally, when you succeed at your check to Exploit a Vulnerability, compare the result of your Esoteric Lore check to the DC to Recall Knowledge for that creature; if that number would be a success or a critical success, you gain information as if you had succeeded at the Recall Knowledge check.
So a Thaumturge has a class feature that gives them a broad range of knowledge (by which I mean it would transcend multiple skill) but the subjects are limited to haunts, curses, and creatures. With an ADDITIONAL class feat, the subject can be expanded to anything, but then you take a penalty to it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So a Thaumturge has a class feature that gives them a broad range of knowledge (by which I mean it would transcend multiple skill) but the subjects are limited to haunts, curses, and creatures. With an ADDITIONAL class feat, the subject can be expanded to anything, but then you take a penalty to it.
Yes, but there is a big difference here: the Thaumaturge gets automatic advances to Esoteric Lore, which means if they take Diverse Lore then by level 3 they're effectively Trained in all Lore skills, by level 7 they're Expert in all of them, and by level 15 they're Master. All for one Class Feat. A Level 1 Class Feat, even.
Keen Recollection not only doesn't ever scale (and you can't upgrade it), it doesn't even give you the +2 from Trained, all you get is your level. It is a much weaker feature that comes online 2 levels later. So nerfing it further by not allowing the Investigator to Recall Knowledge using Lores when appropriate just makes it even worse.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Regarding the reduced DC for specific Lore, it varies from GM to GM. However, in general, I do not consider abilities that grant a form of "proficiency" in everything—such as Keen Recollection or Untrained Improvisation—to count as specific; therefore, they are not subject to the DC reduction IMO. That said, I do consider them valid for use in skill challenges that allow for specific Lore, albeit at the standard DC—especially in the case of Clever Improviser, which allows the character to meet requirements for "Trained" proficiency (in this instance, I treat the character as Trained in everything for the purpose of checks).
The specific-Lore DC adjustment is a matter of GM discretion and will vary from GM to GM, game to game, and situation to situation.
So a Thaumturge has a class feature that gives them a broad range of knowledge (by which I mean it would transcend multiple skill) but the subjects are limited to haunts, curses, and creatures. With an ADDITIONAL class feat, the subject can be expanded to anything, but then you take a penalty to it.Yes, but there is a big difference here: the Thaumaturge gets automatic advances to Esoteric Lore, which means if they take Diverse Lore then by level 3 they're effectively Trained in all Lore skills, by level 7 they're Expert in all of them, and by level 15 they're Master. All for one Class Feat. A Level 1 Class Feat, even.
Keen Recollection not only doesn't ever scale (and you can't upgrade it), it doesn't even give you the +2 from Trained, all you get is your level. It is a much weaker feature that comes online 2 levels later. So nerfing it further by not allowing the Investigator to Recall Knowledge using Lores when appropriate just makes it even worse.
Sure, but I think Esoteric Lore is meant to be a bigger part of the Thaumaturge's class budget and requires an additional skill feat to be used in the way the OP wants.
It is weaker, and that's kind of my point in general. It's not to meant to be as good as "Trained (but not really) in every Lore so you can get a DC discount".
The problem with your whole thing is that "not allowing....to use Lore (to get a lower DC" is that literally everything can have a specific Lore to get a DC.
I'm not saying I wouldn't let someone use Keen Recollection on every/any recall knowledge attempt, I'm saying they're not going to get to do so at a decreased DC.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it might also be worth saying, that as a GM I also wouldn't let Esoteric Lore count as a specific Lore for the DC reduction. To me, the way Esoteric Lore is written it's obviously a very broad Lore skill, and so I wouldn't generally give a DC reduction when using it.
Now obviously Esoteric Lore still ends up in much better position for actually being able to recall knowledge because it scales and you get to use Charisma (your key attribute). But as I mentioned earlier, I believe Esoteric Lore is supposed to be a more important part of of the Thaumaturge class overall, whereas Keen Recollection seems like to just be a minor benefit.
Now, could the Inventor class use some help? Probably. Rewriting Keen Recollection to work more like Esoteric Lore wouldn't be bad for the class, obviously, but as written I don't see good reason to try to make it work that way.
|
Investigator's key attribute is Intelligence, so it does let them use that.
So a Thaumturge has a class feature that gives them a broad range of knowledge (by which I mean it would transcend multiple skill) but the subjects are limited to haunts, curses, and creatures. With an ADDITIONAL class feat, the subject can be expanded to anything, but then you take a penalty to it.Yes, but there is a big difference here: the Thaumaturge gets automatic advances to Esoteric Lore, which means if they take Diverse Lore then by level 3 they're effectively Trained in all Lore skills, by level 7 they're Expert in all of them, and by level 15 they're Master. All for one Class Feat. A Level 1 Class Feat, even.
Keen Recollection not only doesn't ever scale (and you can't upgrade it), it doesn't even give you the +2 from Trained, all you get is your level. It is a much weaker feature that comes online 2 levels later. So nerfing it further by not allowing the Investigator to Recall Knowledge using Lores when appropriate just makes it even worse.
They're definitely not effectively Trained in all Lore skills.
The most broad skill possible is the exact opposite of a specific skill.
Investigator's key attribute is Intelligence, so it does let them use that.
So a Thaumturge has a class feature that gives them a broad range of knowledge (by which I mean it would transcend multiple skill) but the subjects are limited to haunts, curses, and creatures. With an ADDITIONAL class feat, the subject can be expanded to anything, but then you take a penalty to it.Yes, but there is a big difference here: the Thaumaturge gets automatic advances to Esoteric Lore, which means if they take Diverse Lore then by level 3 they're effectively Trained in all Lore skills, by level 7 they're Expert in all of them, and by level 15 they're Master. All for one Class Feat. A Level 1 Class Feat, even.
Keen Recollection not only doesn't ever scale (and you can't upgrade it), it doesn't even give you the +2 from Trained, all you get is your level. It is a much weaker feature that comes online 2 levels later. So nerfing it further by not allowing the Investigator to Recall Knowledge using Lores when appropriate just makes it even worse.
They're definitely not effectively Trained in all Lore skills.
The most broad skill possible is the exact opposite of a specific skill.
Keen Recollection doesn't let them substitute their intelligence for whatever ability score would typically be used for the skill, unless you mean that if you let them use Lore (because Lore is an int based skill) that they get to do that...
But honestly I'm not even sure I would let it work that way and I hadn't thought about it before.
I was thinking about it from the perspective of "Oh, they get to replace their proficiency (for most checks for) Arcana/Relgion/Nature/Occultism/Society" if untrained with a bonus equal to their level rather than the +0 they would have otherwise.
I suppose a GM could decide that a player could use Lore (fiends) instead of Religion to make the check, which would let the character use Intelligence instead of Wisdom. I hadn't previously thought about that conceptually. And now that I am...I definitely just wouldn't allow Keen Recollection to emulate Lores in any way.
Edit: Now for what it's worth, if Investigator got a re-do, I think I probably would like to see it function more like Esoteric Lore. But it doesn't do that right now.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not saying I wouldn't let someone use Keen Recollection on every/any recall knowledge attempt, I'm saying they're not going to get to do so at a decreased DC.
They're definitely not effectively Trained in all Lore skills.
The most broad skill possible is the exact opposite of a specific skill.
Answering both of these here because they both ignore how this actually works in published adventures, where checks are presented with DCs for specific skills, like for example:
"A PC who succeeds at a DC 18 Diplomacy check to Gather Information or DC 16 Underworld Lore check to Recall Knowledge has heard of the bandit gang."
If the Investigator is using Keen Recollection to roll Underworld Lore, they get the DC 16 check. Artificially raising it serves no purpose except to make the Investigator feel bad that they can't take advantage of their cool class feature (assuming their modifier would be better than their Diplomacy).
Similarly, why would you increase the DC for the Thaumaturge, who's already going to be taking a -2 to the roll to Recall Knowledge?
So if you as the GM in a home game think "They can acquire this information with Gather Information, Coerce, or Recall Knowledge" why would you not let these classes use the Recall Knowledge DCs (even if lower)?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
RAW, Keen Recollection indeed applies to Lore skills. Outside of RAW, I would argue that this is also RAI, both because it is congruous to the Investigator's class fantasy of being knowledgeable on extremely specific topics, and because using Lore in this way is one of the key ways they get to contribute in encounters and exploration. I would be loath to increase the DC of RK checks or disallow Lore skills just to limit the Investigator, and if I disliked the idea of a character who could easily get lots of information around a mystery I'm running, I would prefer to disallow the class on character creation rather than nerf them by fiat after the player made their choice.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
RAW, Keen Recollection indeed applies to Lore skills. Outside of RAW, I would argue that this is also RAI, both because it is congruous to the Investigator's class fantasy of being knowledgeable on extremely specific topics, and because using Lore in this way is one of the key ways they get to contribute in encounters and exploration. I would be loath to increase the DC of RK checks or disallow Lore skills just to limit the Investigator, and if I disliked the idea of a character who could easily get lots of information around a mystery I'm running, I would prefer to disallow the class on character creation rather than nerf them by fiat after the player made their choice.
I completely disagree with this. No way should any and all Investigators get all this and the hyper low DC for free.
And I say this as one who built and played an Investigator who maxed Lores for creatures RK. Which is very easy to do with Skillful Lessons getting you Additional Lore. Indeed, my PC's name was actually Lori Tall.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
RAW, Keen Recollection indeed applies to Lore skills. Outside of RAW, I would argue that this is also RAI, both because it is congruous to the Investigator's class fantasy of being knowledgeable on extremely specific topics, and because using Lore in this way is one of the key ways they get to contribute in encounters and exploration. I would be loath to increase the DC of RK checks or disallow Lore skills just to limit the Investigator, and if I disliked the idea of a character who could easily get lots of information around a mystery I'm running, I would prefer to disallow the class on character creation rather than nerf them by fiat after the player made their choice.I completely disagree with this. No way should any and all Investigators get all this and the hyper low DC for free.
And I say this as one who built and played an Investigator who maxed Lores for creatures RK. Which is very easy to do with Skillful Lessons getting you Additional Lore. Indeed, my PC's name was actually Lori Tall.
RK isn't that useful most of the time and the investigator isn't that good to begin with either.
Being allowed to roll RK at the lowest DC possible isn't as insane as you think it is.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not saying I wouldn't let someone use Keen Recollection on every/any recall knowledge attempt, I'm saying they're not going to get to do so at a decreased DC.They're definitely not effectively Trained in all Lore skills.
The most broad skill possible is the exact opposite of a specific skill.
Answering both of these here because they both ignore how this actually works in published adventures, where checks are presented with DCs for specific skills, like for example:
"A PC who succeeds at a DC 18 Diplomacy check to Gather Information or DC 16 Underworld Lore check to Recall Knowledge has heard of the bandit gang."
If the Investigator is using Keen Recollection to roll Underworld Lore, they get the DC 16 check. Artificially raising it serves no purpose except to make the Investigator feel bad that they can't take advantage of their cool class feature (assuming their modifier would be better than their Diplomacy).
Similarly, why would you increase the DC for the Thaumaturge, who's already going to be taking a -2 to the roll to Recall Knowledge?
So if you as the GM in a home game think "They can acquire this information with Gather Information, Coerce, or Recall Knowledge" why would you not let these classes use the Recall Knowledge DCs (even if lower)?
If you only allow exactly what's printed there, then Esoteric Lore doesn't work at all. Or Society, apparently. Diverse Lore lets you RK about any subject, not count as every possible Lore skill (and the people who say it does would generally be expecting a reduction if that DC to 13).
Anyway, I said don't reduce the DC. I didn't say increase it.
RK isn't that useful most of the time and the investigator isn't that good to begin with either.
Being allowed to roll RK at the lowest DC possible isn't as insane as you think it is.
Indeed, I'd like their RK capability to remain on its own merits, but I also think that taking this away from the Investigator would be kicking the proverbial dog when it's down. At worst, they'll make intrigue-oriented scenarios much easier for the party, which is pretty much the one thing they're expressly built for, and that I think is the kind of thing you decide whether or not to allow in your game before someone locks in the class made to do this one job.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
The DC adjustment for appropriate Lore skill really needs to be taken in context and with the particular wording in mind.
One place that it is mentioned is in Recall Knowledge down at the bottom under which skills to use.
Using an applicable Lore to Recall Knowledge about a topic, such as Engineering Lore instead of Crafting to find structural weaknesses in a bridge, typically comes with a lower DC. Your special interests can pay off!
Another place it is mentioned is for identifying creatures.
Lore skills can also be used to identify a specific creature. Using the applicable Lore usually has an easy or very easy DC (before adjusting for rarity).
So, if the stated purpose of the DC adjustment is to reward your character's "special interests", using a feat or class feature that gives you a bonus to skills generally (which happens to include Lore skills), that really isn't a "special interest".
The point of this Lore skill DC adjustment is to briefly give a reward to a player for building a character that has Lore skills appropriate for the campaign. It isn't intended to be a replacement for being trained in skills used for Recall Knowledge to allow you to know everything.
Combining a feat for general purpose minimal proficiency-like bonuses (such as Untrained Improvisation) with a DC adjustment to compensate for the lack of actual proficiency bonus - just feels like gaming the system and is too good to be true.
Being allowed to roll RK at the lowest DC possible isn't as insane as you think it is.
I'm not saying that it is insane. I'm saying that it is cheese and I oppose it on principle.
Just a bit of math for context: at level 3, a Thaumaturge will be at only a relative -1 compared to an Investigator when using RK on a creature, assuming the Investigator is using the creature's Lore and benefiting from KR. Diverse Lore will also let the Thaumaturge RK about anything else at a relative -3 at that point. At level 7, the Thaumaturge is at a relative +1 to the Investigator, and can RK about anything at a relative -1 with Diverse Lore. At level 15, the Thaumaturge is at a relative +3 when Recalling Knowledge about creatures, and at a relative +1 when Recalling Knowledge about anything else. If you're ready to nerf the Investigator because you think being able to dip into specialized Lores is too large a benefit, then you should get ready to ban the Thaumaturge, whose Esoteric Lore lets them exceeds the Investigator's Keen Recollection without even dipping into specialized Lore.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Counterargument:
If you read KR/Untrained Improv as applying to specialized Lores, you are giving a low level general feat a +3 to +1 compared to the Thaumaturge's main feature until level 15 which would be the only time Thaumaturge will go at +1 compared to KR.
So yeah, I tend to think that the main feature of a class should be better than a low level general feat.
Counter-counterargument:
I will also say that despite the Thaumaturge being famous for their incredibly broad Lore skill, calling that their "main feature" is a stretch when they also have Exploit Vulnerability and their implements, the latter of which can let them gain a +1 bonus to all RK checks right off the bat. If you want to house rule that Untrained Improvisation doesn't apply to specialized Lore, go ahead, it's a good general feat regardless, but again, I don't think the Investigator needs to be made great at essentially nothing just to hypothetically avoid treading on the toes of a class that excels at several things at once.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow a blue like MTG discussion! :P
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am on the No side for 2 reasons :
- I am on the RAW side and I dislike people trying to game the system through "creative" reading of the RAW.
- As I mentioned, it is extremely easy for an Investigator to get all the auto-advancing Lores they need.
And a final point : any character can get KR with the Investigator archetype and a level 6 feat.
Esoteric Lore just cannot be poached through the Thaumaturge archetype.
And it is okay that the class who is all about knowing a creature's weaknesses is innately better at it than any other class.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am on the RAW side and I dislike people trying to game the system through "creative" reading of the RAW.
There is no creative reading here. Are all the different Lores a skill? Yes. Is Recall Knowledge an Untrained action? Yes
The RAW side is that you can absolutely roll to Recall Knowledge on any Lore you want, even when Untrained. Without any of these Feats or Class Features.
If you see a Skeleton you can ask the GM to roll Skeleton Lore to identify it, even if your INT is -1 and you're Untrained, though the GM has to give the ok like in any monster identification.
If the GM calls for a Patisserie Lore check to Recall Knowledge, that same character can still roll it. This is all RAW, and it doesn't change because you have abilities that make your Untrained rolls better.
People just don't like the RAW for various reasons.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hesitate to call it RAW because it’s the sort of thing written in the GM Core more as a guideline for the GM than a hard rule (after all, the GM is the one who determines the DC at the end of the day). But precisely because it isn't a strict rule, I interpret it to mean that—in order to benefit from a reduced DC due to Lore being more specific than a standard skill—the Lore itself must be specific, rather than a general ability that works for anything.
I think people overvalue reduced DCs a bit too much because its one of the few mechanics which are 100% GM dependant. For example, if there were feats (and I think skill feats are perfect to tackle this niche) that had effects similar to "You can [whatever skill action] against an Easy DC" people wouldn't overvalue it because it would be seem as something more common, while I get the feeling not too many GMs use them so even when an action like RK that isn't that good IMO encourages GMs to allow players to make checks against a DC-2 or DC-5 is when people see it as much more stronger than it really is.
And I'm not saying reduced DCs wouldn't be huge for other skills (it certianly isn't for RK), but I'd rather replace the +1/+2 circumstance bonus from feats like Specialty Crafting or Virtuosic Performer with an Easy DC personally.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hesitate to call it RAW because it’s the sort of thing written in the GM Core more as a guideline for the GM than a hard rule (after all, the GM is the one who determines the DC at the end of the day). But precisely because it isn't a strict rule, I interpret it to mean that—in order to benefit from a reduced DC due to Lore being more specific than a standard skill—the Lore itself must be specific, rather than a general ability that works for anything.
As an experiment, I combed through both Hellbreakers and Hell's Destiny to see how well the developers themselves stick to the idea of Lore skills having lower DCs when used to Recall Knowledge. I'll put the results in spoilers just in case, but keep in mind I never mention the skills, context, or anything of the sort, just raw numbers.
Of those 33, 11 offer a DC for a single skill to Recall Knowledge with, so they're not useful to us since there's no DC to compare.
Of the remaining 22, 6 offer DCs for two non-Lore skills, so again, not useful for us to check, both because we cannot compare DCs to Lores, and because all of them are the same DC to both skills besides.
This leaves us with 16 Recall Knowledge checks that have DCs for one or more Lore Skills and one of the general skills. Of those 16:
- 5 (31.25%) offer exactly the same DC between the general skill and the Lore skill
- 2 (12.5%) offer exactly the same DC between two Lore skills
- 1 (6.25%) offers -1 DC to the Lore skill
- 7 (43.75%) offers -2 DC to the Lore skill
- 1 (6.25%) offers -3 DC to the Lore skill
It is interesting to note, however, that the DC is always the same for all Lore skills presented as options for a check, even though some of them would definitely fall into "more specific" than others (Country vs City; Whole Region vs Specific Faction).
Non-spoiler conclusion: the developers mostly stick to giving Lore checks lower DCs (though curiously, not always); they don't differentiate by specificity (all Lores get the same DC), and the vast majority of them are "easy" compared to the non-Lore skill (so, -2 DC), with none of them being "very easy" (-5 DC).
So the idea of being able to roll any Lore you want doesn't seem to translate to -5 DC to all rolls, at least in the mind of adventure writers.
This leaves us with 16 Recall Knowledge checks that have DCs for one or more Lore Skills and one of the general skills.
And how many of those have a separate listed DC for "absolutely any Lore skill you happen to have"?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think people overvalue reduced DCs a bit too much because its one of the few mechanics which are 100% GM dependant. For example, if there were feats (and I think skill feats are perfect to tackle this niche) that had effects similar to "You can [whatever skill action] against an Easy DC" people wouldn't overvalue it because it would be seem as something more common, while I get the feeling not too many GMs use them so even when an action like RK that isn't that good IMO encourages GMs to allow players to make checks against a DC-2 or DC-5 is when people see it as much more stronger than it really is.
And I'm not saying reduced DCs wouldn't be huge for other skills (it certianly isn't for RK), but I'd rather replace the +1/+2 circumstance bonus from feats like Specialty Crafting or Virtuosic Performer with an Easy DC personally.
I agree that RK is not in a good place.
I still feel that getting the equivalent of an untyped +2 to a check is good and an untyped +5 is amazing.
Which is why I don't like using the latter to hotfix the former. Especially because it will be only for some builds and not for others.
This leaves us with 16 Recall Knowledge checks that have DCs for one or more Lore Skills and one of the general skills.And how many of those have a separate listed DC for "absolutely any Lore skill you happen to have"?
Two, though they phrase it as "an appropriate Lore Skill" and it's the same DC as the other Lore they have listed. In one of them, funnily enough, it's any Appropriate Lore or one of the general skills, and the DC is exactly the same for both.
Also that's not how it works anyway? Untrained Improvisation/Keen Recollection would just help by letting you roll the presented Lore at the listed DC. You don't get to make up a Lore and ask for a lower DC.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The key thing is just that "the -5 to DC for very specific lore checks" exists entirely by case-by-case GM discretion. It isn't a thing that just exists as a player-facing number that you can invoke by how you phrase your RK attempt. That's where all the table variation boils down to. There's a lot of guidance about things that can influence RK DCs, but they ultimately come down to "The GM sets this", both RAW and RAI.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Keen Recolection is using same language as Untrained Improv but more limited.
So, if you allow Keen Recollection, you should be allowing even moreso Untrained Improv which IS a General feat.
There is no game rule stating that you must house rule every similar mechanic in the same way, not that it would have any power in this situation. If you are going to deviate from RAW and nerf this kind of mechanic by GM fiat, which is what you're doing here, then I would say there is room to apply that nerf magnanimously and not nerf an already weak class at its own specialty just because a general option works the same way.
How about NOT a creature recall, why aren't you putting that in your calculations?
I'm sorry, how did you miss the entire portion where I repeatedly bring up Diverse Lore? Because that only applies when not Recalling Knowledge about creatures, curses, and haunts, the topics Esoteric Lore already applies to, and the math I've shown in my comment demonstrates that the Thaumaturge still catches up to and exceeds the Investigator, or any Untrained Improvisation character for that matter. And again, this is a 1st-level feat we're talking about, not a core class feature, so I find it spectacularly hypocritical to defend a genuinely overtuned feat while using that exact same argument to significantly downgrade a feature on an infamously dissatisfying class.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Interesting that you straight up say that allowing Untrained Improv is "houserule" but allowing "Keen recolection" is RAW since they are using same mechanic (rolling with Untrained skills).
How is one RAW and the other Houserule?
This is coming so far out of left field I'm struggling to understand how we're even on the same thread. To be very clear: I am stating that disallowing Untrained Improvisation and Keen Recollection's benefits from applying to specific Lore skills is a house rule. That is what is being discussed.
Also:
I've already debunked your generic RK checks. Untrained Improv is better than dedicated class feats by your math until level 15 if we use your rulings.
By that logic, no-one should even try to have a general lore feat since Untrained Improv which is a simple general feat is leaps and bounds better than it.
You haven't debunked my math, you've simply neglected to read it:
Untrained Improvisation's bonus starts off as your level -2, so assuming you've maxed out your Intelligence and are using specialized Lore, you will be at a relative -2 compared to the Investigator, a relative -1 compared to a Thaumaturge Recalling Knowledge about creatures, and a relative +1 compared to a Diverse Lore Thaumaturge Recalling Knowledge about anything else. This gap goes to 0/+2 at level 5, then back to -1/+1 at level 7, and then -3/-1 at level 15.
Note how the numbers listed make it clear that Untrained Improvisation, if allowed to use a lower DC from a specific Lore, grant a benefit over Diverse Lore until level 15, so Diverse Lore still beats it. This is, by the way, a mistake on both our parts, because lowering the DC of a Recall Knowledge check applies exclusively to identifying creatures. General Lores, including Diverse Lore, are therefore much more effective at Recalling Knowledge outside of creature identification than Untrained Improvisation or Keen Recollection.
Also:
"GM fiat" as you are saying is ALSO allowing the -5, since, by straight up RAW that is up to the GM to apply or not.
I have stated no such thing. It is entirely your prerogative to choose not to lower the RK DC when identifying a creature. Choosing not to grant the benefits to Lore skills at all, however, is GM fiat, and not RAW.
"GM fiat" is ALSO what is allowed to even exist as a Lore skill and what is not apart from the printed ones.
So, no, I'm not "nerfing" anything more than you are "buffing" by the same amount.
As per the rules for Lore, the GM determines what other subcategories they'll allow as Lore skills. Disallowing established Lore subcategories is not RAW, and I don't see why you would even do so outside of trying to win an online argument or partake in a particularly petty form of antagonistic GMing.
p.s. Investigator is not a "weak class" after the remaster. It needs no extra GM fiat help to shine.
The remastered Investigator remains an unpopular class, and is still frequently criticized for being far more constrained and less effective than the Rogue. Please do note that I have made the effort to furnish facts, evidence, and rules references for the statements I'm making, and would appreciate if you did the same in what is ultimately meant to be a very cut-and-dry discussion over whether a specific mechanical interaction is valid RAW (which it is).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Those of you on the against side, what is the difference between how the for side would use KR, and a class feature I would have expected to come up sooner; Bardic Lore? Or the legacy Loremaster archetype's Loremaster Lore?I view Loremaster, Esoteric, and Bardic as general Lores since they apply to everything (which is the opposite of what "specific" is).
So I allow all checks but at base DC, no reductions.
For KR, and Untrained Impov features in general, I simply apply it to non-Lore skills.
---
The main difference is that this distinction would make someone with (as an example) vs a Ghost: Loremaster lore roll with 2+level+Int and someone with Untrained Impov to roll with Level+Wis
100% this, this is the way.
Letting the Investigator use Keen Recollection as a pseudo-trained in every Lore so you can use Int and a lower DC does not make any sense.
Could the Investigator use help? Yes. Would giving it a better version of the ability (something like Esoteric Lore from Thaumaturge) make sense? Probably.
I'd rather house rule the Investigator ability to function more like that, than twist the interpretation of how broad unspecific lore like abilities should be applied.
Anyways, to the original poster, as you can see this is quiet the contentious topic.
Talk to your GM about how they rule on Keen Recollection functioning as Lore skills and the DC adjustments that may or may not be applicable.
The rest of the discussion here is just two groups of people arguing, and I suspect (and know for myself) that we're not willing to listen to the other side. So it's all just hot wind and meaningless arguing.
Your GM will make the rules for your table that you need to abide by.
Ruminating on this a little, I think as a house rule I might make Keen Recollection function like Bardic Lore. So it would give you an Investigator's Lore skill that would start at trained and could become expert if you became Legendary in....I'm not sure exactly what skill would be appropriate but I'd pick something. Investigator doesn't exactly have an equivalent in terms of significance like the Bard does with Occultism.
Maybe Society, as it's one of the base skill provided by the class so every Investigator has it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is, by the way, a mistake on both our parts, because lowering the DC of a Recall Knowledge check applies exclusively to identifying creatures.
This isn't true, since the Recall Knowledge Skill Action itself states:
"Using an applicable Lore to Recall Knowledge about a topic, such as Engineering Lore instead of Crafting to find structural weaknesses in a bridge, typically comes with a lower DC."
You find an old ruined castle in cheliax, and the player going "I use my Untrained Improvisation/Keen recolection to use "Ruins of Castles in Cheliax Lore" to see what I know about it.". Since the Lore is extremely specific, it should qualify for the -5 to DC for very specific Lore checks.
This isn't how it works, for two main reasons:
1 - As explained above, while Creature Identification does say the DC is usually easy or very easy, the actual Recall Knowledge action simply says a lower DC. It doesn't say they must get a lower DC, nor does it give numbers. And as I've show in another post, the developers themselves don't even give lower DCs all the time, nor do they ever give you the much coveted "-5".
2 - Just because a player says they want to use a skill doesn't mean they get to, particularly with Lore skills when the GM decides if they exist at all. In your example, I'd just say "That Lore doesn't exist, but you can use Cheliax Lore* or Architecture Lore if you wish".
Your example only works with an extremely permissive GM that interprets the rules in the way most advantageous to the player, which I'd argue is not how most tables would play and therefore useless when discussing the power and use of these abilities.
*Interestingly, the rules on Lore Subcategories found in Creature Identification actually say a country lore shouldn't be allowed, but you need look no further than the many Adventure Path Player Guides to find Backgrounds that give you Belkzen Lore, Isger Lore, Cheliax Lore, etc; so it seems they are a fine Subcategory after all.