Samurai and Ninja in Second Edition

[Mr.Bushi]

The Tian Xia expansion was amazing. I was really excited since Eastern Continents is abandoned in D&D. However I was really disappointed in the character guide that there was no Ninja or Samurai class like in the 1E Advance player guide. Id love for Paizo to bring those classes back to 2E. Hopefully they might consider it if this gets enough attention

[QuidEst]

That's in the category of things I wouldn't hold your breath on.

- Alternate classes were an experiment in 1e that Paizo moved away from.

- We already have Rogue (or Alchemist) and Fighter (or Commander). We have archetypes for disguise, assassination, poisoning, alchemy, and magic, if any of those are what's missing from Rogue, and we have archetypes for quick-draw dueling, mounted combat serving a cause, and command if any of those are what's missing from Fighter. Paizo doesn't seem inclined to do "existing class X but with the flavor of one specific culture".

- The thread has been made by some folks before and we did not end up with them.

You will probably have better luck asking for classes that will do a closer job of letting you play what you want from "ninja" or "samurai" while still being usable for other concepts. Or, alternatively, consider what you want out of those concepts, and folks can help with a build.

[PossibleCabbage]

Yeah, the operative question is "what would you want to do as a ninja/samurai character that the current rules don't allow you to do." If the answer is nothing more than "write ninja/samurai on my character sheet" then the job is done.

[BotBrain]

Samurai and Ninja have been explicitly deconfirmed, with the logic being it ends up being a form of orentalism where the implication is that something from Asia is so impossibly exotic you can't play it without a bespoke option.

If you want to play a samuari you already have the tools to do so. Most pure martials can be a samuari in the same way they can be a knight. Ninja is a bit more difficult but even then throwing weapon monk is pretty close already.

As Quidest said you're far better off working out what it is about Ninja and Samurai you like that isn't doable in the game already and then angleing for that.

[keftiu]

Not gonna happen. Ninja and Samurai from non-Japanese countries look goofy at best and echo Japan's history of colonial violence elsewhere in East Asia and the Pacific.

What do you need from either that isn't covered by PF2's many existing classes? Why does this single country need to stand apart from everyone else's Fighters, Champions, Monks, and Rogues?

[Faolán Maiali the Azure Abjurer]

To be fair, we could easily have Samurai and Ninja as archetypes. I mean, we already have Gladiator and Viking archetypes, which are pretty Roman- and Norse-coded.

[moosher12]

That is a good point, why wouldn't viking be a problem when ninja is?

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I'd say we'd be more likely to get archetypes based around specific aspects of the samurai and ninja fantasy: Quick-Draw Master, Smoke-bomb Expert, Noble Swordlord, Disguised Assassin, etc. That way you don't have to worry about fetishizing a piece of someone else's culture.

[TheTownsend]

Part of the argument the devs made was that there's no singular "class fantasy" encompasing everything someone might expect from those titles. Is a ninja a hyper-skilled agility combatant? Or a gishy illusionist? Or a comically stealthy striker? Ask three nerds, you'll get three answers. By comparison a Viking is fairly narratively straightforward: nautical raiders with axes and seaxes.

Meanwhile, I was hoping Tian Xia Character Guide would include a Jiang-Shi Undead Archetype and a Dagger-axe, but you don't see me bringing it back up on the forums every six months. When will my beloved dagger-axe return from the war…

[Ascalaphus]

I do think there's room for more Tian flavored archetypes, which could definitely scratch the itch.

Instead of for example making ninjas illusion-gish types (and disappointing the people who were hoping for a nonmagical stealth class), make two archetypes. One of them could be an "Shenmen disciple" that goes the more supernatural route. Another one could be a "Gokan dagger" that's focused on more urban parkour kinda stuff. And a "Songbai samurai" could focus more on being an honorable warrior while a "Chu Ye disciple" could be more of a grim warrior with supernatural backing kinda type.

A big advantage of going the archetype road is that it combines well with existing classes. You could already make a "ninja" with a rogue or monk, you just might one or two tidbits of stuff extra to get it complete.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

I wouldnt mind at all a class that could be a ninja without having to be specifically and only a Ninja. Or rather, a class that can fulfill one of the ninja aesthetics thats not already being done to some degree. Non-magical ninja to me are just rogues--I'd expect the same proficiencies, the same sneak attack, and broadly similar feat access.

Meanwhile the sneaky spellcaster/magic spy seems like something I wouldnt mind seeing done as a class that can encompass both the magical ninja as well as any subtle mage, provided some kind of cool class mechanic could be found for it.

Samurai meanwhile... if you want a code of honour bound samurai sworn to uphold their oath, take Champion of Shizuru. Otherwise pick Fighter or Swashbuckler depending where your preferences lie.

Ive seen some chatter about a mechanic for challenging foes which I could see as an archetype, but there's very little about samurai I feel we don't already have between the options just listed.

[moosher12]

TheTownsend wrote:

Part of the argument the devs made was that there's no singular "class fantasy" encompasing everything someone might expect from those titles. Is a ninja a hyper-skilled agility combatant? Or a gishy illusionist? Or a comically stealthy striker? Ask three nerds, you'll get three answers. By comparison a Viking is fairly narratively straightforward: nautical raiders with axes and seaxes.

This would be a good argument, but Paizo didn't use this argument at all in that announcement. The argument was not based on the fulfillment of class fantasy, but that the existence of those classes as culturally loaded concepts was problematic in and of itself. For example, the post mentions monk as being similarly problematic and implies that the monk as it is should also be removed from the game. (Whether removed altogether or replaced with a more culturally neutral concept, time will tell, but there is a legitimate chance PF3E may not have a monk).

Though I do agree it is possible to make a culturally agnostic equivalent. As for class fantasy itself, samurai I feel is already pretty well covered by existing classes (Commander, Fighter, Guardian, Soldier, and Swashbuckler each contribute to different aspects). Magical ninja I feel can be covered by simply taking the Arcane Trickster and turning it into a class. (I mean, Magus was originally a prestige class turned to a class, originally the Eldritch Knight back in 1E, so it's certainly possible to do something bespoke for arcane trickster), while mundane ninja stays rogue. The main problem for me, I've always felt, was that while Samurai and mundane ninja are easily fulfilled. Magical ninja lacks a class that it easily slots into without sacrificing some core aspects of the fantasy. (Rogue lacks satisfying magic due to using archetype progression and feat tax, magus lacks utility and the stealth reward while Spellstrike isn't really a common part of the class fantasy anyway, kineticist I always felt was a stretch in the first place).

Slime LV 8 on Discord wrote:

The Tian Xia World Guide is now officially available for purchase!

With this book’s release and the discourse surrounding it, we need to make clear the discord's rules and principles to make sure that the community is safe from harm. Especially recently, the discord has seen too many arguments that show how poorly people understand the severe prevalence of racism against Asian people, a phenomenon so deep-rooted that people simply do not notice its presence. It isn't as simple as someone saying a slur or judging based on skin colour—it’s easy to be confident in one’s ability to spot commonly-taught and overt racist tropes—but beyond that surface level, there are worlds of nuance and harms that many don’t know how to see or understand.

In the early 2000s, a book called Oriental Adventures was rewritten and expanded for D&D 3e. It is one of WotC's best-selling books of all time. It is also one of the most concentrated collections of Asian-based racist tropes in TTRPG space at the wide reach that Wizards has in the hobby. Paizo is no stranger to bigoted tropes either, found throughout PF1e books such as the Jade Regent AP and still carrying into PF2e in the monk class, which boxes Asians into the “Magical Asian” stereotype: rather than representing the fact that Asian fighters or Asian clerics exist (because Asian people are people), this racially-coded class stifles Asian representation into a caricature of 1970s kung fu exploitation movies. While we can move forward and learn from the past if we recognise the need to confront it, nothing will be accomplished if the reaction to that need is defensiveness or denial. Taking responsibility and taking real steps to improve is the entire philosophy of the Tian Xia World Guide: Paizo has given the reins to Asian authors who have made this book an honest conversation that addresses past mistakes and respects Tian Xia not as an exoticised locale, but as a legitimate, lived-in home.

Stereotypes and biases influence the ways that a book is written, the ways that a movie is edited, the ways that we speak to each person we meet in a day, and even unconsciously influence the ways that we think. Media exposes us to ideas that can normalise distorted perceptions and draw lines that make minorities “othered”, portraying them as if they’re different from “normal” people. AAPI activist Jenn Fang writes on how biases and norms feed into orientalism, making it all too easy to treat the stereotypical “West” as “normal” while a fantasised “East” is filtered through stereotypes:

Orientalism… draws upon exaggerations of both Occidental and Oriental traits in order to create an Orientalist fantasy that is a fictional recapitulation of both East and West. Western men are reimagined as universally Godly, good, moral, virile, and powerful — but ultimately innately human. By contrast, those traits that best serve as a counter-point to the Occidental West are emphasised in the West’s imagined construct of the East: strange religions and martial arts, bright colours and barbaric practices, unusual foods and incomprehensible languages, mysticism and magic, ninjas and kung fu. Asia becomes innately unusual, alien, and beastly. In Orientalism, Asia is not defined by what Asia is; rather, Asia becomes an “Otherized” fiction of everything the West is not, and one that primarily serves to reinforce the West’s own moral conception of itself.

Some fans often talk about wanting a dedicated “ninja” or “samurai” character option. However common these tropes have been, they’re a very blurry subject because of the exclusive focus on Japanese media stereotypes fueled by anime and samurai movies being the main exposure to Asian culture that westerners ever have. It goes beyond just "liking something" or "just a fantasy". Putting stereotypes on a pedestal excludes the hundreds of ethnic groups that exist in Asia and tells them that, when Asians get represented, they just get homogenised into a Japanese person—this is racism through exclusion towards Asian people who aren’t specifically Japanese. It’s the overwriting and exclusion of ethnicities that falls into the racist stereotyping of “you all look the same”. It creates a racist trope where Asian people are either the “karate master” or “honourable samurai warrior”, defined by the history of Japanese imperialism that billions of people in Asia are still grappling with. In the words of the Tian Xia World Guide:

“Tian Xia can’t be summed up in a single book; no land can. The following pages offer an outline of the cities, cultures, peoples, places, creatures, flora, and history of what can be found here. It might seem different, but no more different than the nations of the Inner Sea are from one another. Look with a willingness to learn, and you might find as many things in common as there are differences.”

Moving forward, we will do our best to improve our understanding of these harmful stereotypes and how to address them. We will always strictly enforce Rule #1, as we want everyone to feel safe and respected in this space, and we thank you for your understanding and care in making this a more accepting community for all Pathfinders.

If you would like to learn more, we recommend https://reappropriate.co/2014/04/what-is-orientalism-and-how-is-it-also-rac ism as well as a few more sources:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/orientalism
https://theconversation.com/orientalism-edward-saids-groundbreaking-book-ex plained-197429
https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2019/10/31/asian-representation-and-the-m artial-arts - This link in particular hones in on the TTRPG space.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_East_Asians_in_the_United_Stat es

[magnuskn]

Wasn't that post by the guy who got kicked out of his mod position on the PF2E Reddit, because it came out that he had a history of racist anti-Japanese posts (him being himself Asian of another ethnicity)?

[TheTownsend]

No, I'm almost certain someone said that in one of the Paizo Lives leading up to the release. I don't particularly feel like combing through two-year-old twitch streams to find it, but I think it's there.

[QuidEst]

Why are you quoting somebody from an unofficial Discord server as if it's Paizo...?

[moosher12]

QuidEst wrote:

Why are you quoting somebody from an unofficial Discord server as if it's Paizo...?

That would be because I thought it was an official Discord server, since it hosts the official interaction with Paizo's official 2E SRD, being Archives of Nethys. Periodically hosts Q&As with some Paizo staff, and the like. Second party Discord server at the farthest. Wouldn't call it unofficial.

[magnuskn]

Just checked, actually that *was* the post which was written by luck_panda (posted by Ediwir, though), former mod on the PF2E reddit and boss mod of the PF2E discord, who had to step down from his mod duties on Reddit because it came out that he had a very unfortunate history of troublesome statements.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1cbzpbf/tian_xia_real_world_ parallels_and_a_serious_moment/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1cftjgm/a_statement_from_the _moderation_team/

[moosher12]

Thanks for the extra context, the Discord version of the moderater apology didn't clarify things well enough, so I assumed it was unrelated to that statement. I don't hang out reddit side, so I missed this part of it. But if the official channels distanced themselves from that statement, it's relieving.

Granted, I in a small part agree that seeking a culturally agnostic approach is probably a good idea where possible, but those statements were just too extreme of a way.

[keftiu]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I wouldnt mind at all a class that could be a ninja without having to be specifically and only a Ninja. Or rather, a class that can fulfill one of the ninja aesthetics thats not already being done to some degree. Non-magical ninja to me are just rogues--I'd expect the same proficiencies, the same sneak attack, and broadly similar feat access.

Meanwhile the sneaky spellcaster/magic spy seems like something I wouldnt mind seeing done as a class that can encompass both the magical ninja as well as any subtle mage, provided some kind of cool class mechanic could be found for it.

I'd definitely enjoy something like the old D&D 3.5's Beguiler class (a sneaky spellcaster) without it being bound to the Ninja label.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Makes complete sense to me to call the "monk" something else, it being a very inaccurate name to all but a few real world monastic orders/traditions. Other d20 fantasy games have already tried this, with Level Up Advanced 5e being the first that comes to mind with "Adept".

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

keftiu wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I wouldnt mind at all a class that could be a ninja without having to be specifically and only a Ninja. Or rather, a class that can fulfill one of the ninja aesthetics thats not already being done to some degree. Non-magical ninja to me are just rogues--I'd expect the same proficiencies, the same sneak attack, and broadly similar feat access.

Meanwhile the sneaky spellcaster/magic spy seems like something I wouldnt mind seeing done as a class that can encompass both the magical ninja as well as any subtle mage, provided some kind of cool class mechanic could be found for it.

I'd definitely enjoy something like the old D&D 3.5's Beguiler class (a sneaky spellcaster) without it being bound to the Ninja label.

I agree that there is just as much space for a "sneaky spellcaster" as for a dedicated necromancer or whatever the runecaster is.

[PossibleCabbage]

Like the basic problem with "Ninja" and "Samurai" as classes is that there are whole corners of fiction where everybody is a Ninja and you can break them into types like "Fighter-Ninja", "Rogue-Ninja", and "Wizard-Ninja".

You're never going to be able to make a class that covers all of those things in a game that already has Fighters, Rogues, and Wizards.

Certainly if there are things in ninja fiction that you'd like to be able to do that the current options don't support, if we can break those down into level-appropriate bins, that's certainly a case for "new feats" or "an archetype" but there's lots of other stuff that enables other new kinds of characters competing for that page space.

The one thing PF2 doesn't do well, which PF1 did okay, was enable a bunch of different builds for "unarmored melee fighter" since the only really workable ways to be unarmored and hang around danger are "be a monk" and/or "max your dexterity." We could use another good option here.

[moosher12]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Like the basic problem with "Ninja" and "Samurai" as classes is that there are whole corners of fiction where everybody is a Ninja and you can break them into types like "Fighter-Ninja", "Rogue-Ninja", and "Wizard-Ninja".

I agree here, we fortunately have 2 of the three well executed, I feel. Fighter Ninja is well done by the Monk and Swashbuckler. Rogue Ninja of course by the rogue. Wizard ninja I think is the missing link, but that can be done with an Arcane Trickster as a class, or as was brought up by Keftiu, the Beguiler, though I'm not familiar with how exactly it works.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think part of the issue is that Paizo is pretty clear that people with full casting potential shouldn't be that capable in melee combat, just for niche protection for fighters etc. So a Wizard-Ninja runs into that issue, and I'm wondering if you couldn't just do this with a Magus or specifically "what tools would we need to give the Magus for this to work."

Now there's certainly room for wave-casters in Occult, Primal, and Divine but I'm not sure if any of those dip too much into the ninja fantasy.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

...or specifically "what tools would we need to give the Magus for this to work."

I think the main things a caster would need is Acrobatics/Athletics and sneaky abilities (including disguises).

[moosher12]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think part of the issue is that Paizo is pretty clear that people with full casting potential shouldn't be that capable in melee combat, just for niche protection for fighters etc. So a Wizard-Ninja runs into that issue, and I'm wondering if you couldn't just do this with a Magus or specifically "what tools would we need to give the Magus for this to work."

Now there's certainly room for wave-casters in Occult, Primal, and Divine but I'm not sure if any of those dip too much into the ninja fantasy.

I honestly think bounded casting would be fine. Basically, take a magus, remove spellstrike, and swap it out for some utility stuff and perhaps a variant on sneak attack, possibly with a slower growth than a pure rogue. Magus as it is works front and center, but changing its feat kit and core kit to better enable intrigue, poison, and the like instead of being a spellsword.

[BotBrain]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think part of the issue is that Paizo is pretty clear that people with full casting potential shouldn't be that capable in melee combat, just for niche protection for fighters etc. So a Wizard-Ninja runs into that issue, and I'm wondering if you couldn't just do this with a Magus or specifically "what tools would we need to give the Magus for this to work."

Now there's certainly room for wave-casters in Occult, Primal, and Divine but I'm not sure if any of those dip too much into the ninja fantasy.

Occult would work. Focus it around secrets somehow (ala whisper dragon) and you've got a stealth-focused wave caster right there. If we boil down the model to three words "Stealth, Secrets, Spells" could certainly fufill a ninja fantasy of being a supernatural spy.

[moosher12]

Plus we don't have a dedicated occult bounded caster anyway. (Not gonna count summoner because it's a flexible class like a sorcerer; Nor for nature, which could be a fun candidate for Shifter as a side note).

[BotBrain]

If it were up to me I'd have a primal wave caster be like the warden from 4e. It's a fun fantasy we don't really have a direct way to play. (Though I suppose green faith champion + druid dedication is close)

[Ravingdork]

We already have something better:
- stoic warrior samurai (fighter)
- sword-saint samurai (magus)
- muscle samurai (barbarian)
- honor-bound leader samurai (commander or champion)
- unstoppable samurai (guardian)
-vengeful slayer samurai (ranger)
- ronin drifter samurai (fighter, ranger, rogue, or swasbuckler)
- warrior poet samurai (monk)

- stealthy assassin ninja (rogue)
- unoichi ninja (rogue or swashbuckler)
- elite join ninja (ranger or investigator)
- energetic kid ninja (monk)
- mystical ninja (kineticist or monk)
- poisoner ninja (alchemist)
- kickass ninja (fighter)

And more!

Why on Golarion would you want to limit yourself to one bespoke class package?

[Castilliano]

GMed a Barbarian "Samurai", worked fine. The veneer is easily duplicated.

[Easl]

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

...or specifically "what tools would we need to give the Magus for this to work."

I think the main things a caster would need is Acrobatics/Athletics and sneaky abilities (including disguises).

A caster with high dex/acrobatics is pretty easy to build.

moosher12 wrote:

I honestly think bounded casting would be fine.

Yeah me too. While I don't think Paizo should necessarily cater to any (more) culture tropes*, spellstrikers with different traditions or spell lists is a place where there is a lot of room for expansion. By all means, bring on the spellstriker who can learn AC spells plus those with the Detection, Shadow, Subtle, and Void tags!

*I'm okay with viking. Yes, it's a cultural trope, that was a bad move. But "Marine" isn't - pretty much every culture had fighters whose job it was to man the boats. Boat+fight is not a cultural trope. Ditch the horned helmets and berserker attitude, it fits everywhere.

[Plane]

Hi, from Japan.
The cultural sensitivity around this is baffling.
We have yoroi armor in hotels so you can geek out on samurai cool and get some nice picture memories.
We have ninja mansions where you can check out traps, ninja tech, throw shuriken, and wear ninja armor.
We have sword museums where you can check out real artifacts from the past.
We rebuilt samurai castles and turned them into tourist museums, so you can feel what it was really like to defend the legendary gates.
You can do a tea ceremony in the castles without any training or nationality.
Would you like to wear a kimono or hakama while you walk around the ancient streets of Kyoto? They're for rent, and you will be dressed properly by kind attendants.

Play samurai and ninja to your heart's content. Nobody is gatekeeping.

[NorrKnekten]

Easl wrote:

*I'm okay with viking. Yes, it's a cultural trope, that was a bad move. But "Marine" isn't - pretty much every culture had fighters whose job it was to man the boats. Boat+fight is not a cultural trope. Ditch the horned helmets and berserker attitude, it fits everywhere

Pretty much, They could've named it Raider or similar since some sort of coastal raider has pretty much been a constant around the world even alongside and competing with what we now call vikings.

But otherwise the theme is pretty neutral, its just a shielded fighter with sailing lore and bonuses to swim.

[Unicore]

What is funny to me about the name monk getting wrapped in this conversation is that the class has nothing to do with monasticism, which is practiced by many different faiths all over the world, and is instead about asceticism, and should probably be called the ascetic, which actually comes from Ancient Greece.

[Ryangwy]

Plane wrote:

Play samurai and ninja to your heart's content. Nobody is gatekeeping.

I think the issue is that the history of specifically the ninja and samurai class in D&D history is pretty fraught. Did you know the 3.5e ninja class explicitly notes that it's completely wrong for any depiction of the ninja but they thought it's fine because nobody gives a s##!? I'm not making this up.

The other issue is that these are very specific cultural classes, and that's problematic for the Tian Xia Character Guide because needless to say the rest of Asia doesn't have samurai and ninjas. There's no easy way to genericsise them the way we do with barbarians (and most of the other cultural classes have been dropped - shamans are now animists, calvalier is an archetype). I'm admittedly weirded out why there's no iaijutsu archetype, being the one samurai trope that genuinely isn't captured at the moment, and the arcane trickster really just doesn't work ATM. But classes have way more weight than archetypes and you can't have the headliner player facing option be two extremely Japanese specific classes without essentially saying all of Tian Xia is Japanese. Which is then a problem the other way. And then you have to ask where else are these guys going to show up?

[ornathopter]

Also, people in the diaspora are going to have a very different experience than people living in Japan. It's very easy to think ninjas are silly to worry about when you are a Japanese person surrounded by other Japanese people all the time - a Japanese-American nerd who's been the only Asian person in every gaming group they've ever been in is going to have had more bad experiences and times they've felt humiliated or exoticized or just gotten constant little reminders that their favorite hobby was heavily shaped by writers who would have called them a slur if they ever met. There is a lot of writing by Asian-American ttrpg nerds about this exact topic. Because again - no one in this thread is saying "nobody should EVER play a ninja or samurai!", they're saying 'you don't need a special option for playing a ninja or samurai, you can do that already.'

[TheTownsend]

Unicore wrote:

What is funny to me about the name monk getting wrapped in this conversation is that the class has nothing to do with monasticism, which is practiced by many different faiths all over the world, and is instead about asceticism, and should probably be called the ascetic, which actually comes from Ancient Greece.

Well, the issue there is that the Monk doesn't really deal with asceticism, at least in the general sense, it deals with martial arts in the context of ascetisism. Which is fairly specific to the Sinosphere, I believe due to veterans seeking out the peace of temples and spreading their training, and the idiom of the Warrior Monk becoming a cultural touchstone. The class, going back to 1e D&D, is based pretty specifically on the Kung Fu movie boom in the 70's, there's no way around that. (Also, while the term asceticism comes from Greek, the practice comes about independently across the world)

[Unicore]

But Greek asceticism was practiced specifically for physical and athletic improvement/perfection. It is actually a much better fit for the PF2 class that has no specific spiritual element baked into its core chassis. It can be added on, but the PF2 monk already took massive leaps away from the D&D/PF1 and the 70s king fu movies that inspired it.

I love those movies and the amazing reach they have had into global cultures, but the move away from them as the sole realization for the class was a smart move at the start of PF2. I just think monks not having anything to do with monasticism means a name like ascetic is much more representative of what the class really is.

[Unknown Sage]

With regards to the monk. I find it weird that people seem to be angry about them having magical abilities. I would myself dispute that the monk is exclusively based on the kung fu movie boom, at least with regard to the current pf2e version (though the original version may very well have been exactly that. I'm too young to have any recollection of such ancient history), when it is clearly the case that they currently have a lot of inspiration in the Xianxia genre, with their Qi abilities (optional sure) and a lot of their class flavor of seeking enlightenment and achieving spiritual/bodily perfection being key concepts. Albeit pretty toned down sure. Xianxia does get a bit crazy in the upper power levels :)

I mean we're playing a fantasy game here. Why would it be a bad thing if we include/enable playing something inspired by the various asian fantasy equivalents like the aforementioned Xianxia.

though yes the name is probably not a great one. Most of the western world probably would think of medieval monks in monasteries if they weren't already familiar with how in ttrpg's it is typically referring to the martial arts type character. I'd agree with Unicore that Ascetic would fit much better, especially given the cultivation themes contained within it.

[Dragonchess Player]

Ravingdork wrote:

Plane wrote:

Play samurai and ninja to your heart's content. Nobody is gatekeeping.

I realized a long time ago that there's no such thing as cultural appropriation. That's literally how culture spreads and evolves, and it stagnates and dies without people sharing in it.

That said, I do agree with the notion that we want to recognize other peoples and their cultures as other civilizations, and not lower them by calling them barbarians or raise or other them by making them out to be exotic. A farmer is still a farmer and a warrior is still a warrior, after all, even if their beliefs, customs, attire, traditions, and tools are radically different. In the end, they're all just people trying to live their normal (to them) lives.

Personally, I understand the pullback from having specific ninja and samurai bespoke classes.

It's not about cultural appropriation, really. Mostly, TTRPGs have had a bad habit of tokenism and/or fetishism when incorporating characters based on other cultures (even fantasy ones, like elves and dwarves).

At the end of the day, a knight, samurai, shih, etc. is basically the same thing with a different name, preferred weapon(s), etc.

Monks are a bit harder to separate from the cultural awareness of "dedicated/mystic martial artist," however. In PF2e, there is also the martial artist archetype (plus the wrestler, as well) for the non-dedicated/mystic unarmed combatants.

[Teridax]

My memory on this may be fuzzy, but I remember part of the reason behind neither the Ninja nor the Samurai getting included is because both get vast amounts of exposure already, and the authors wanted to dedicate the page space for the character guide to less-represented elements of the various cultures Tian Xia takes inspiration from.

Mechanically speaking, I do think there are some elements of both character fantasies that could probably be fleshed out a bit more, such as weapon draw-based bonuses, parkour, and sneaky magic that isn't locked behind the high-level archetype that is the Shadowdancer. As others mention, however, and as Unicore points out with the Monk, I don't think those need to be locked behind an archetype specifically called the Ninja or Samurai, or even be specific to an archetype at all. A stealthy magic-user who can climb up terrain could certainly be a ninja, but could also be Corvo Attano from Dishonored. This may not necessarily appeal to the players who specifically want a class that's called the Ninja or Samurai, but it would effectively provide more options to achieve certain character fantasies around both concepts.

[Dragonchess Player]

Fast-draw bonuses can probably be handled as a skill feat for Thievery, IMO. It's pretty adjacent to Dirty Trick or Pickpocket.

For parkour, the playtest daredevil with the acrobat archetype can probably work for much of it.

Sneaky magic can possibly just be a Laughing Shadow magus with the shadowcaster and/or shadowdancer archetypes.

[The Raven Black]

Why do people always talk about ninja and samurai and never about the myriad other cultural icons from Asia, including Japanese ones?

This, right here, is why Paizo does not want to do specific Ninja and Samurai classes.

[Agonarchy]

+1 that cultural sensitivity for non-spiritual elements is usually felt more keenly by people who are not living in a place where their culture is dominant.

It's worth noting that even back in D&D 2E, which had a ninja class in 1995 that was basically a fighter/rogue hybrid, they also had ninja kits and variants for the other classes because it was already understood that ninja were not just one concept.

Personally, I am playing a ninja in PFS. They are a fencer swashbuckler with an entertainer background, and aside from being part if the Envoy's Alliance, they are a noh and kabuki actor, where they make full use of their deception and Acrobatic Performer abilities. They are also building toward a spooky nagaji eye powers plus stealth build for target isolation. Sadly, while they do use shuriken, the build can't afford the thrown weapon feat. For the most part, being a ninja colors who they are and how and why they do things, but the only thing I could wish for is more gadgets with scaling DCs (smoke bombs and scaling caltrops, please), and more tools for acting like the pocket stage.

Samurai is weird in different ways because it's a social class. I know a samurai. She makes excellent bento, is a master seamstress, plays a mean game of mahjong, and teaches koto and tea ceremony. These definately need to be in the game.

[magnuskn]

And I thought Japanese Americans are primarily US-Americans and thus their primary culture is US-American. I would certainly feel strange if German expats would be dominant in determining how Germany can be represented abroad.

[Agonarchy]

Japanese people have had some very unpleasant experiences in the US over the generations, in ways that are best not detailed here, but overall it's complicated. Japanese people continue to emigrate each year, not just a single moment in history, and experiences vary wildly over time and region, and those experiences that are traumatic are quite real.