I'm curious to know; for those of you who use Free Archetype in your games, do you allow your players to double up on feats if they choose? That is, take more feats from a single archetype than normally would be possible without Free Archetype in effect. Why or why not?
For example, one of your players wants to play a monk with the wrestler archetype, which has several feats available at each level. Starring at 4th level, your player takes a wrestler feat as normal for Free Archetype, but then also chooses another wrestler feat in lieu of a monk feat. In fact, from then on, they choose only wrestler feats when possible, effectively making them twice the wrestler than would normally be possible.
If you enforce the duality of Free Archetype, why? If you allow for doubling up, do you have any concerns that it might get out of hand in some way?
I thought that I had allowed the character Roshan to double up on archetype feats, but looking over her character sheet, I don't see two archetype feats at any single level. The character is a Eldritch Trickster rogue with Gelid Shard free archetype. Roshan is using her free archetype feat slots for both her Gelid Shard archetype and her Sorcerer Multiclass archetype.
1st level: Sorcerer Dedication (sorcerer multiclass) from Eldritch Trickster racket, Nimble Dodge (rogue) from rogue feat.
2nd level: Magical Trickster (rogue) from rogue feat, First Frost (gelid shard) from free archetype.
4th level: Dread Striker (rogue) from rogue feat, Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting (sorcerer multiclass) from free archetype.
6th level: Gang Up (rogue) from rogue feat, Snowcaster (gelid shard) from free archetype.
8th level: Analyze Weakness (rogue) from rogue feat, Bloodline Breadth (sorcerer multiclass) from free archetype.
10th level: Dazzling Display (rogue) from rogue feat, Frozen Breadth (gelid shard) from free archetype.
I can imagine she will be tempted at 12th level to take both Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting (sorcerer multiclass) and Expert Snowcasting (gelid shard), but maybe she will also want a particular rogue feat at 12th level.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I guess I hadn't paid attention, because I didn't realize there was a restriction on how you spent the extra class feats.
Well, I mean I thought/knew it was required that the extra class feat be spent on an archetype and not on your main class, but I didn't think there was any restriction on how you spent your original class feat.
Rereading the rules (unless there are other rules elsewhere) I don't see such a restriction, or even the implication of it. Only a restriction that the extra feat be spent on the archetype. No prohibition on spending your original class feat on the archetype.
Yeah, I am completely ok with people spending their class feats on more archetype feats. Usually they don't, because there are most often some juicy class feats they want. I would be the most likely to do so in my group, if I were playing.
I also never thought that could be a restriction. I'm running a campaign with free archetype, and I wouldn't have a problem with a player doing that.
I typically don't allow it, but, only because most of the time when I'm running a FA game, I tell players to basically imagine no interaction between their normal build and the FA build. I allow a normal non-FA archetype in on the class side. The class side and the FA side must independently qualify for number of feats in an archetype before starting a new archetype. And we handle the rare completely dead level/skill feat heavy archetypes on a case by case basis.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I typically don't allow it, but, only because most of the time when I'm running a FA game, I tell players to basically imagine no interaction between their normal build and the FA build. I allow a normal non-FA archetype in on the class side. The class side and the FA side must independently qualify for number of feats in an archetype before starting a new archetype. And we handle the rare completely dead level/skill feat heavy archetypes on a case by case basis.
I think this makes sense if you're running Free Archetype with a specific theme. Like if you were playing Skull and Shackles type of campaign and told everyone they get the pirate archetype for free. It makes sense to say "Those free class feats can only be spent on pirate". I disagree a bit though, that if a player wanted to spend their main class feats on the archetype that you shouldn't let them. But, if you're going to allow them to take another dedication with their main class complete separate from the free archetype I can kinda see it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IMO, it's probably not a big issue; except in groups where there is a disparity in system mastery, of course. Or if there is a specific thematic expectation (such as Strength of Thousands). Archetype feats in PF2e are generally sidegrades, rather than significant upgrades.
The "biggest" issue (again, IMO) is that it would make some multiple archetype characters possible by speeding up the "must take two additional archetype feats before taking another archetype dedication."
Yeah, it's worth keeping in mind that dedication archetypes you're generally grabbing feats that would be available to someone half your level.
So if you're a 10th level character grabbing a fighter feat through advanced maneuver, you only qualify as though you were a 5th level fighter (which isn't helpful in the sense that class feats are generally available at even levels, so you really only count as being 4th level).
Because of this, grabbing feats in this way isn't usually very strong. Especially when you're giving up an on level feat to do that.
There are outliers, and of course certain things are very good for certain concepts but not necessarily strong relative to other options.
Generally archetype feats are weaker then class feats so there's no reason to restrict them.
Yes, and I think its perfectly fine. Archetype feats usually tend to be weaker than class feats of the same level, which is shown how certain archetype feats which come straight from classes are usually of a higher level than in their original class, so if someone wants to take 2 archetype feats in a particular level to dip into another archetype in 2 levels I think they are paying the cost for that future power spike.}
What I would like is, however, for an archetype option to exist to double down on feats from your class if possible, like taking your own class' multiclass archetype. I feel this "archetype" could probably also allow you to take extra skill feats or general feats too, and it would be really cool for certain classes like alchemist or kineticist which don't really work that well with the rest of the system and usually have a ton of feats options they have to forfeit in favor of other ones.
It helps some classes stay fresh. Thaumaturge has some fun base abilities at the expense of their feats mostly belonging to a few tracks- letting them really dig into their archetypes instead of going "I guess I'll get the scrolls line again..." is good.