I'm curious to know; for those of you who use Free Archetype in your games, do you allow your players to double up on feats if they choose? That is, take more feats from a single archetype than normally would be possible without Free Archetype in effect. Why or why not?
For example, one of your players wants to play a monk with the wrestler archetype, which has several feats available at each level. Starring at 4th level, your player takes a wrestler feat as normal for Free Archetype, but then also chooses another wrestler feat in lieu of a monk feat. In fact, from then on, they choose only wrestler feats when possible, effectively making them twice the wrestler than would normally be possible.
If you enforce the duality of Free Archetype, why? If you allow for doubling up, do you have any concerns that it might get out of hand in some way?
I thought that I had allowed the character Roshan to double up on archetype feats, but looking over her character sheet, I don't see two archetype feats at any single level. The character is a Eldritch Trickster rogue with Gelid Shard free archetype. Roshan is using her free archetype feat slots for both her Gelid Shard archetype and her Sorcerer Multiclass archetype.
1st level: Sorcerer Dedication (sorcerer multiclass) from Eldritch Trickster racket, Nimble Dodge (rogue) from rogue feat.
2nd level: Magical Trickster (rogue) from rogue feat, First Frost (gelid shard) from free archetype.
4th level: Dread Striker (rogue) from rogue feat, Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting (sorcerer multiclass) from free archetype.
6th level: Gang Up (rogue) from rogue feat, Snowcaster (gelid shard) from free archetype.
8th level: Analyze Weakness (rogue) from rogue feat, Bloodline Breadth (sorcerer multiclass) from free archetype.
10th level: Dazzling Display (rogue) from rogue feat, Frozen Breadth (gelid shard) from free archetype.
I can imagine she will be tempted at 12th level to take both Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting (sorcerer multiclass) and Expert Snowcasting (gelid shard), but maybe she will also want a particular rogue feat at 12th level.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I guess I hadn't paid attention, because I didn't realize there was a restriction on how you spent the extra class feats.
Well, I mean I thought/knew it was required that the extra class feat be spent on an archetype and not on your main class, but I didn't think there was any restriction on how you spent your original class feat.
Rereading the rules (unless there are other rules elsewhere) I don't see such a restriction, or even the implication of it. Only a restriction that the extra feat be spent on the archetype. No prohibition on spending your original class feat on the archetype.
Yeah, I am completely ok with people spending their class feats on more archetype feats. Usually they don't, because there are most often some juicy class feats they want. I would be the most likely to do so in my group, if I were playing.
I also never thought that could be a restriction. I'm running a campaign with free archetype, and I wouldn't have a problem with a player doing that.
I typically don't allow it, but, only because most of the time when I'm running a FA game, I tell players to basically imagine no interaction between their normal build and the FA build. I allow a normal non-FA archetype in on the class side. The class side and the FA side must independently qualify for number of feats in an archetype before starting a new archetype. And we handle the rare completely dead level/skill feat heavy archetypes on a case by case basis.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I typically don't allow it, but, only because most of the time when I'm running a FA game, I tell players to basically imagine no interaction between their normal build and the FA build. I allow a normal non-FA archetype in on the class side. The class side and the FA side must independently qualify for number of feats in an archetype before starting a new archetype. And we handle the rare completely dead level/skill feat heavy archetypes on a case by case basis.
I think this makes sense if you're running Free Archetype with a specific theme. Like if you were playing Skull and Shackles type of campaign and told everyone they get the pirate archetype for free. It makes sense to say "Those free class feats can only be spent on pirate". I disagree a bit though, that if a player wanted to spend their main class feats on the archetype that you shouldn't let them. But, if you're going to allow them to take another dedication with their main class complete separate from the free archetype I can kinda see it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IMO, it's probably not a big issue; except in groups where there is a disparity in system mastery, of course. Or if there is a specific thematic expectation (such as Strength of Thousands). Archetype feats in PF2e are generally sidegrades, rather than significant upgrades.
The "biggest" issue (again, IMO) is that it would make some multiple archetype characters possible by speeding up the "must take two additional archetype feats before taking another archetype dedication."
Yeah, it's worth keeping in mind that dedication archetypes you're generally grabbing feats that would be available to someone half your level.
So if you're a 10th level character grabbing a fighter feat through advanced maneuver, you only qualify as though you were a 5th level fighter (which isn't helpful in the sense that class feats are generally available at even levels, so you really only count as being 4th level).
Because of this, grabbing feats in this way isn't usually very strong. Especially when you're giving up an on level feat to do that.
There are outliers, and of course certain things are very good for certain concepts but not necessarily strong relative to other options.
Generally archetype feats are weaker then class feats so there's no reason to restrict them.
Yes, and I think its perfectly fine. Archetype feats usually tend to be weaker than class feats of the same level, which is shown how certain archetype feats which come straight from classes are usually of a higher level than in their original class, so if someone wants to take 2 archetype feats in a particular level to dip into another archetype in 2 levels I think they are paying the cost for that future power spike.}
What I would like is, however, for an archetype option to exist to double down on feats from your class if possible, like taking your own class' multiclass archetype. I feel this "archetype" could probably also allow you to take extra skill feats or general feats too, and it would be really cool for certain classes like alchemist or kineticist which don't really work that well with the rest of the system and usually have a ton of feats options they have to forfeit in favor of other ones.
It helps some classes stay fresh. Thaumaturge has some fun base abilities at the expense of their feats mostly belonging to a few tracks- letting them really dig into their archetypes instead of going "I guess I'll get the scrolls line again..." is good.
Generally archetype feats are weaker then class feats so there's no reason to restrict them.
Generally absolutely true.
However I was coming back to this thread and reread your statement and wanted to mention there are some exceptions, or at least some archetype feats that are above the "power curve" of other archetype feats.
The first example that comes to mind is the Acrobat dedication feat itself, which gives you a scaling skill up to Legendary. I don't actually love acrobatics for most of my characters, but if I was interested in Acrobatics, spending a single class feat on this dedication to get it increased while getting to keep the rest of my skill increases on the other things I like seems like a pretty good proposition.
I'm curious to know; for those of you who use Free Archetype in your games, do you allow your players to double up on feats if they choose? That is, take more feats from a single archetype than normally would be possible without Free Archetype in effect. Why or why not?
The game I'm in, the GM has allowed (or at least not dis-allowed) me to build my Thaumaturge with free archetype as a mostly-Champion. I even double up on HP from resilience.
He allows it because he explicitly WANTED people to gain power from FA, because we are running Abomination Vaults.
Generally archetype feats are weaker then class feats so there's no reason to restrict them.Generally absolutely true.
However I was coming back to this thread and reread your statement and wanted to mention there are some exceptions, or at least some archetype feats that are above the "power curve" of other archetype feats.
The first example that comes to mind is the Acrobat dedication feat itself, which gives you a scaling skill up to Legendary. I don't actually love acrobatics for most of my characters, but if I was interested in Acrobatics, spending a single class feat on this dedication to get it increased while getting to keep the rest of my skill increases on the other things I like seems like a pretty good proposition.
I think that argument works in the opposite way.
Acrobat is extremely good without FA.With FA you still need to get out of it to grab something else, unless you take it at 18 or 20, but who cares by then.
IMO it's not too much because I think standard 3 legendary skill progression is bad. I'm often grabbing Acrobat and/or Rogue to get more skill bumps when I have FA.
The standard spread of a party of 4 being able to cover 12 of the 16 skills sucks bad, never mind having characters having the same skill for thematic/story/build reasons.
Yeah I don't worry about it. They're legal picks. It just gives people something to do on a level where none of the class feats are interesting.
Another question comes to my mind.
IF you are giving a free Archetype allowing the feats when the level is met. I assume that is how it works. What if instead of doubling up on a feat from the same archetype the character takes feats from another archetype.
Would that be wrong somehow.
So I am a wizard and I take the Witch feat as a free archetype getting primal magic and then a sorcerer archetype getting divine magic, etc. Just to have a character casting spells from three lists, etc.
Nothing restricts you to a single archetype for your free archetype slots [other than the DM houseruling some limit]: they just have to be archetype feats. You could literally take a feat from a different archetype every time a free archetype feat slot comes up assuming you can juggle the feats so you could get 3 feats by then.
Another question comes to my mind.
IF you are giving a free Archetype allowing the feats when the level is met. I assume that is how it works. What if instead of doubling up on a feat from the same archetype the character takes feats from another archetype.
Would that be wrong somehow.
So I am a wizard and I take the Witch feat as a free archetype getting primal magic and then a sorcerer archetype getting divine magic, etc. Just to have a character casting spells from three lists, etc.
The only limitation is needing 2 additional feats before taking another dedication (usually).
Aside from that you can take feats in any archetype that you've got the dedication for. There's a character in my Strength of Thousands game whose goal is to be able to cast all four traditions of magic. He's a Cleric/Wizard/Psychic/Halcyon Speaker or something like that.
Nothing restricts you to a single archetype for your free archetype slots [other than the DM houseruling some limit]
Just wanted to point out that the GM instituting limitations on Free Archetype is not a house rule. That is how Free Archetype is intended to work.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing restricts you to a single archetype for your free archetype slots [other than the DM houseruling some limit]Just wanted to point out that the GM instituting limitations on Free Archetype is not a house rule. That is how Free Archetype is intended to work.
That's not exactly true.
Building a Character
The only difference between a normal character and a free archetype character is that the character receives an extra class feat at 2nd level and every even level thereafter that they can use only for archetype feats. You might restrict the free feats to those of a single archetype each character in the group has (for a shared backstory), those of archetypes fitting a certain theme (such as only ones from magical archetypes in a game set in a magic school), or entirely unrestricted if you just want a higher-powered game.If the group all has the same archetype or draws from a limited list, you might want to ignore the free archetype's normal restriction of selecting a certain number of feats before taking a new archetype. That way a character can still pursue another archetype that also fits their character.
Playing with Free Archetypes
Free-archetype characters are a bit more versatile and powerful than normal, but usually not so much that they unbalance your game. However, due to the characters’ increased access to archetype feats, you should place a limit on the number of feats that scale based on a character’s number of archetype feats (mainly multiclass Resiliency feats). Allowing a character to benefit from a number of these feats equal to half their level is appropriate.
The rules say that's one option, so is completely unrestricted, or limited to a group of archetypes. So using the bonus feats for multiple archetypes on one character is valid, as long as the GM doesn't say it's not.
That's why it's important for a GM to establish how they want to do it up front.
You might restrict the free feats to those of a single archetype each character in the group has (for a shared backstory), those of archetypes fitting a certain theme (such as only ones from magical archetypes in a game set in a magic school), or entirely unrestricted if you just want a higher-powered game.
As that is exactly the passage I would have quoted to support my earlier statement, I find myself rather confused.
You might restrict the free feats to those of a single archetype each character in the group has (for a shared backstory), those of archetypes fitting a certain theme (such as only ones from magical archetypes in a game set in a magic school), or entirely unrestricted if you just want a higher-powered game.As that is exactly the passage I would have quoted to support my earlier statement, I find myself rather confused.
Yes, you MIGHT add restrictions, meaning that that would diverge from the 'normal' rule. A rule specific to your game, is a house rule and that fits the bill with adding additional restrictions to the base rule.
I'd say considering it's an optional rule, 'normal' is a bit suspect. Because it's an optional rule, including it at all is a house rule, and all iterations of it, whether as written or with modifiers, are also house rules.
I'd call it a house rule because is someone said 'we're using Free Archetype', that would not include any 'might' restrictions. You'd have to mention additional alterations as an addition to the rule that's in the book. I can't look up 'Bob's' version of the Free Archetype in the book, but I CAN look up the base Free Archetype. Optional/Variant Rule vs House Rule IMO.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because if you ask two GMs their definition of what free archetype entails, you'll get different interpretations.
We'll have agree to disagree. I see a clear base rule with a mention that the DM could add restrictions in. I've joined games before that stated 'Free Archetype' and never had an issue with additional things added on since it's pretty clear what the base rule is.
This entire thread exists, because these questions are not even laid out under the Free Archetype rules.
If it doesn't mention a restriction, it's not there... seems simple. The OP asked if DM's restricted feat access [not if there is, isn't or should be access] but didn't mention any issue understanding the rules. It's a 'hey, do you add on to the rule' not 'does the rule say this or that'.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By disagreeing, that kind of reinforces the point that different GMs have different interpretations. You have yours, and I have mine. That's the way it goes.
lol It more means that I'm not interested enough to continue debating it, not that I see a different way you can look at it. It seems a lot clearer than some other 'normal' rules in the system. ;P
I'd say considering it's an optional rule, 'normal' is a bit suspect. Because it's an optional rule, including it at all is a house rule, and all iterations of it, whether as written or with modifiers, are also house rules.I'd call it a house rule because is someone said 'we're using Free Archetype', that would not include any 'might' restrictions. You'd have to mention additional alterations as an addition to the rule that's in the book. I can't look up 'Bob's' version of the Free Archetype in the book, but I CAN look up the base Free Archetype. Optional/Variant Rule vs House Rule IMO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a complete reversal from pre-remaster, where the default assumption was restrictions and the optional rule was without restrictions?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a complete reversal from pre-remaster, where the default assumption was restrictions and the optional rule was without restrictions?I'd say considering it's an optional rule, 'normal' is a bit suspect. Because it's an optional rule, including it at all is a house rule, and all iterations of it, whether as written or with modifiers, are also house rules.I'd call it a house rule because is someone said 'we're using Free Archetype', that would not include any 'might' restrictions. You'd have to mention additional alterations as an addition to the rule that's in the book. I can't look up 'Bob's' version of the Free Archetype in the book, but I CAN look up the base Free Archetype. Optional/Variant Rule vs House Rule IMO.
Gamemastery Guide: "The only difference between a normal character and a free-archetype character is that the character receives an extra class feat at 2nd level and every even level thereafter that they can use only for archetype feats. Depending on the needs of the group and the theme of the game, you might restrict the free feats to those of a single archetype each character in the group has (for a shared backstory), those of archetypes fitting a certain theme (such as only ones from magical archetypes in a game set in a magic school), or entirely unrestricted if you just want a higher-powered game."
So, nope the default was the same it just made it more explicit with the "These feats are normally unrestricted" added in for the remaster. The restrictions are still behind the "you might restrict the free feats", meaning that they would normally not be restricted. It DOES say "you should place a limit on the number of feats that scale based on a character’s number of archetype feats (mainly multiclass Resiliency feats)", so you might be thinking of that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You might restrict the free feats to those of a single archetype each character in the group has (for a shared backstory), those of archetypes fitting a certain theme (such as only ones from magical archetypes in a game set in a magic school), or entirely unrestricted if you just want a higher-powered game.As that is exactly the passage I would have quoted to support my earlier statement, I find myself rather confused.
So just saying you are using Free archetype does not even necessarily imply it is the unrestricted one.
This is what I was (trying to) get at.
Saying "We're using free archetype" own its own isn't specific enough.
The rules in the free archetype section lay out three options, with no precedence or default given among the three.
1) You can select feats from 1 archetype only
2) You can select from a group/theme of archetypes
3) You can select any archetype you desire
But the rules literally say "You might restrict" (which on its own implies [weakly] that there is no assumed restriction) without providing any additional detail. The rules are so short, IMO you shouldn't infer which version of "Free Archetype Rules" you're operating under without the GM specifying.
Edit: If a GM told me we were using free archetype and for some reason refused to elaborate on that, and I had to make an assumption, I would assume unrestricted access, with the admittedly weak argument that the phrase "You might restrict" implies it's not normally restricted.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmm, anecdotal but thinking back on all the reddit threads I can remember, pretty much every time someone says something like "I need ideas for my [class] with free archetype character" or similar, they didn't specify anything further and the default assumption from comments was unrestricted.
Personally when someone says to me "Free Archetype" with no qualifiers I just assume bonus archetype feats every even level.
I think there may be a strong argument to be made that that is the default expectation, at least from what I've seen online.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I must be getting old. I'm ashamed to admit that I've spent far too many long looking down my nose at unlimited free archetype groups, all the while thinking to myself that "they are doing it wrong anyways."
I realize now that I was not only factually wrong, but in the wrong.
Thanks for setting me straight, everyone.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If a GM told me we were using free archetype and for some reason refused to elaborate on that, and I had to make an assumption, I would assume unrestricted access, with the admittedly weak argument that the phrase "You might restrict" implies it's not normally restricted.Yeah, if the "unrestricted" part was before "You might", it would certainly be stronger, but word order puts unrestriction also under the umbrella of "might," which frankly paints it as being just as default as the accompanying single-archetype or archetype theme limitations.
If they didn't mention unrestricted after the "you might" in that sentence, I think that would be a clear intention of default unrestricted Free Archetype, but they didn't.
Ultimately GMs, just be clear with your players.
Free Archetype is optional in the first place, if you're going to bring in an option, make sure you explain how you want to run it.
Personally, I'll never do unrestricted free archetype. It'll either be a single archetype (unusual for me), or a theme (what I'm mostly likely to do if I allow free archetype).
And I won't necessarily even say which archetypes are allowed in a theme. I'll say "here's some that definitely fit, but if you think another fits ask me". Like if I say we're playing a pirate campaign, but you think "I feel like Pathfinder Agent makes sense for someone traveling around the world". I probably wouldn't have listed it on the explicitly approved list, but if you come to me and explain your character concept I'll probably allow it.
The Strength of Thousands Player's Guide recommends the free archetype with a choice of only two archetypes:
Spellcasting for Everyone
Even though any class works well in the Strength of Thousands Adventure Path, a campaign where students attend a magic school wouldn’t seem very magical unless all the heroes can cast spells! Each character in this Adventure Path gains either the druid multiclass archetype (Pathfinder Core Rulebook 225) or wizard multiclass archetype (Core Rulebook 231) to reflect the primal and arcane teaching traditions of the school, respectively. Druids must select the wizard multiclass archetype and wizards must select the druid multiclass archetype, but characters of other classes can choose either. ...
However, I declared to my players that they can learn any archetype that teaches an arcane or primal tradition different from their own. I listed them out, but made mistakes. The magus Zandre selected Dragon Disciple free archetype, because Zandre wanted to hunt dragons. I had spotted Dragon Arcana feat 4 and mistaken it for a feat that granted arcane spellcasting rather than granting a few individual spells. So Zandre broke the rule unintentionally. And though Dragon Disciple says that some dragon hunters take the archetype, it is for dragon hunters who want to fight dragons with draconic powers. That does not fit Zandre, so after he had his three Dragon Disciple feats, I told him he could select a second archetype for his free archetype slots. He chose Rogue Multiclass. It fits his Ekujae elf heritage.
And the player of the wizard Idris talked me into letting Idris select the Magaambyan Attendant archetype as his free archetype, since Idris was literally a student at the Magaambya Academy. That archetype is built to lead into the Halcyon Speaker archetype.
Then there is rogue Roshan. The player's plan from the beginning was to create a martial character with parallel spellcasting archetypes, Sorcerer Multiclass via the Eldritch Trickster rogue racket and Gelid Shard via the free archetype.
The other four players have handled their free archetypes without variation: two bards with druid multiclass, a kineticist with wizard multiclass, and a champion with magus multiclass.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And the player of the wizard Idris talked me into letting Idris select the Magaambyan Attendant archetype as his free archetype, since Idris was literally a student at the Magaambya Academy. That archetype is built to lead into the Halcyon Speaker archetype.
SoT's Players Guide also gives people Maaganyban Attendant Dedication when they reach rank 3 in their branch. So you didn't need to be talked into anything there unless you had changed that part.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And the player of the wizard Idris talked me into letting Idris select the Magaambyan Attendant archetype as his free archetype, since Idris was literally a student at the Magaambya Academy. That archetype is built to lead into the Halcyon Speaker archetype.SoT's Players Guide also gives people Maaganyban Attendant Dedication when they reach rank 3 in their branch. So you didn't need to be talked into anything there unless you had changed that part.
I scrapped the Life in the Academy's system of advancing in branches and instead let them earn skill feats by passing difficult classes through Study and Cramming. Due to the influence of the bards, the PCs pretty much ended up as Theater majors. I wrote up an example of a class field trip at River Into Darkness Revisited.
And what this means is that my PCs have been getting their usual ancestry, class, general, and skill feats plus additional archetype feats from free archetype plus additional skill feats from passing classes. Making them slightly overpowered as Magaambya mages has been flavorful.
|
possible.
If you enforce the duality of Free Archetype, why? If you allow for doubling up, do you have any concerns that it might get out of hand in some way?
From one end its doubling up on archetype feats. From the other, its shorting out on your class feats, so it balances out.
Free Archetype, no matter what choices are made, is a power boost.
A power boost is very debatable. Flexibility absolutely without question. The math of the system keeps the power mostly in check.possible.
If you enforce the duality of Free Archetype, why? If you allow for doubling up, do you have any concerns that it might get out of hand in some way?
From one end its doubling up on archetype feats. From the other, its shorting out on your class feats, so it balances out.
Free Archetype, no matter what choices are made, is a power boost.
Not really? There was a post a while back on reddit here that can give you an idea of how much more power you can get out of Free Archetype if you really know what you're doing.
The boost will vary from player to player, but that FA is mostly a power boost is undeniable.