Will Psychic Ever See New Support?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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All of the talk about the remastered psychic not being what people wanted from it got me thinking, it isn't uncommon for classes to get new options in future releases (Tian Xia for example added a bunch of new feats and even a whole new subclass for Magus, with Rival Academies doing the same).

But with something as relatively rare and niche in the world as occult classes, will Psychic ever seen anything to update them and fix these issues people have? It feels like the best place to talk about this strange magic would have been, well, Impossible Magic, but there's no mention of anything for Psychic as of now at least. It's a shame that one of my favorite classes, conceptually at least, feels so... forgotten.

Grand Archive

It would be cool to see new subclasses at some point


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There are a few different ways a class can receive some form of update via official means:

  • 1. The class can receive errata. This usually incurs tweaks to the class's numbers and smaller mechanics, but has so far never been an overhaul.
  • 2. The class can receive new subclasses or other class-specific content in an expansion. This can introduce stronger options to a weaker class, such as the Wizard's School of Gates in Shining Kingdoms, but so far has never involved retroactive changes to the core class as far as I'm aware.
  • 3. The class can be remastered if it hasn't been already. If the class is brought over to a new book, such as the Player Core or Impossible Magic classes, then this gives space to implement larger-scale changes to the class. Otherwise, if the remaster is to an existing expansion, then it is bound by page layout constraints and the changes are smaller-scale.
  • 4. Pathfinder First Edition had a book called Pathfinder Unchained that introduced "unchained" versions of classes. Effectively, this meant the class was overhauled to feel much better to play, and generally better-balanced alongside other options. No such book has yet released for PF2e.

    For the Psychic, the ship has sailed on option #3, so option #2 could introduce stronger subclasses, though I personally don't think that would necessarily address key problems with the core class. I do think there are valuable numeric and mechanical buffs that could be applied to the Psychic via option #1, but given the remastered Dark Archive is just launching and Paizo is severely behind on their errata schedule, it might be years before we see any errata to the class, if it happens at all. Option #4, while technically possible, feels unlikely to me given how Paizo doesn't seem intent on changing classes very much post-release or post-remaster. Personally, I'll be looking to third-party content creators to provide supplements that would improve the Psychic, and I might even try my hand at some homebrew.


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    No one really knows, unfortunately. "Splatbook" classes like this have historically not gotten much support compared to "core" classes. But Thaumaturge got a much requested Shield implement in Battlecry and that's from the same book as Psychic. Likewise Magus has gotten some new stuff.

    So it's possible.

    Unfortunately with the just-relesed changes being kind of a dud and the lack of errata Paizo is doing in general these days, the stuff that needs fixing probably won't be.

    Teridax listed some simple changes that could be easily done in errata that would help that also could have been done in these chagnes and weren't. Will they course correct after seeing how this landed?

    No one really knows that, either.


    I wouldn't be surprised to see some psychic support in impossible magic coming out this year (I also wouldn't be surprised if it didn't get any).

    Part of the reason I suspect we haven't gotten much Psychic support in the last 3 years is because it was not remastered. Paizo probably didn't want to print anything for the Psychic that didn't work with the new class.

    Psychic also benefits from any book with new spells in it or spell caster feats, as many are shared between multiple classes.

    Dark Archive

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    I agree with Teridax and Tridus that the issue with Psychic is in their overall design itself, and supplementing with new Subconscious or Conscious minds, feats, etc just to make the class "work" would only serve to limit the class to only one direction if someone wanted to be "effective" in that regard.

    I will say that I am a little more optimistic that, once errata does come around, Psychic might actually be a higher priority despite its recent Remaster because it's so clear the majority of people who were keeping track of it are very unhappy with the end results. Even then most have been tempering their requests to be in line with very simple changes that would do very little (if anything) to the layout of the book itself.

    Homebrewing and/or 3PP probably is the best until then.


    Kelseus wrote:
    Psychic also benefits from any book with new spells in it or spell caster feats, as many are shared between multiple classes.

    While this is absolutely true, it's important to try to keep an eye out for additions that *uniquely* help the Psychic more than other casters.

    Mutual helps like new spells boost the competition as much as the Psy, so it's not really a "Psychic improvement." And to be honest, Psy being a 2 slot caster genuinely means that new potent spells actually grows the gap a bit, ouch.

    If you focus on Psy's spots of uniqueness among casters, you can see that Psy genuinely has been uniquely helped by some new additions.

    Unlike other casters, Psy makes itself Stupefied, right?
    Well, the Treasure Vault added Bottled Catharsis, which makes a counteract to remove it. (TV also added things like retrieval belt to make such scripted quaffing more doable)

    But the real "wow damn, that's kinda nuts" item was added later in Seasons of Ghosts. The Energizing Pill lozenge is one of the few worth using. Not only does it guarantee the Stupefy reduction instead of counteract rolling, but it does so via a Reaction.

    It's high level, but the L10 item is good enough of a specifically-Psychic helper that any INT Psy must be hearing the siren song of the Alchemist Dedication right about now. Kinda the perfect L1-11 AP capstone upgrade over the Bottled Catharsis

    Edit: But all that is assuming that the Battlecry addition of Trusty Helmet didn't make even that pill completely outmoded, lol. L2 once p day item that also prevents the Stupefy on Reaction. Will need to dedicate an invested slot for each one in the bag, but it's kinda hilariously a goat item for Psychic. Very professor Xavier of them to wear a mind-shielding helmet like that.


    Trip.H wrote:
    Kelseus wrote:
    Psychic also benefits from any book with new spells in it or spell caster feats, as many are shared between multiple classes.

    While this is absolutely true, it's important to try to keep an eye out for additions that *uniquely* help the Psychic more than other casters.

    Mutual helps like new spells boost the competition as much as the Psy, so it's not really a "Psychic improvement." And to be honest, Psy being a 2 slot caster genuinely means that new potent spells actually grows the gap a bit, ouch.

    If you focus on Psy's spots of uniqueness among casters, you can see that Psy genuinely has been uniquely helped by some new additions.

    Unlike other casters, Psy makes itself Stupefied, right?
    Well, the Treasure Vault added Bottled Catharsis, which makes a counteract to remove it. (TV also added things like retrieval belt to make such scripted quaffing more doable)

    But the real "wow damn, that's kinda nuts" item was added later in Seasons of Ghosts. The Energizing Pill lozenge is one of the few worth using. Not only does it guarantee the Stupefy reduction instead of counteract rolling, but it does so via a Reaction.

    It's high level, but the L10 item is good enough of a specifically-Psychic helper that any INT Psy must be hearing the siren song of the Alchemist Dedication right about now. Kinda the perfect L1-11 AP capstone upgrade over the Bottled Catharsis

    Edit: But all that is assuming that the Battlecry addition of Trusty Helmet didn't make even that pill completely outmoded, lol. L2 once p day item that also prevents the Stupefy on Reaction. Will need to dedicate an invested slot for each one in the bag, but it's kinda hilariously a goat item for Psychic. Very professor Xavier of them to wear a mind-shielding helmet like that.

    Unleash probably uses your character level for counteract rank (and DC?), so you’d have to quaff on level Bottled Catharsis to consistently beat it - the action cost is already bad, but it’s simply too much gold to justify it. If that’s how you’re removing unleashed go play a sorcerer and have more actions AND gold.

    Energizing Pill, on the other hand, looks amazing. I think this and trusty helmet just solve the problem, by the time that 4 or so investment slots for trusty helmets starts being an issue the pills are cheap enough to step in (~level 15). Previously I had been using paragon battle medicine for high leveled stupified removal on psychic, but I guess that’s no longer *necessary*, just good (not like battle medicine isn’t goated anyways and why not preserve the pill if you’re gonna BM next turn anyways?)


    Kelseus wrote:
    Part of the reason I suspect we haven't gotten much Psychic support in the last 3 years is because it was not remastered. Paizo probably didn't want to print anything for the Psychic that didn't work with the new class.

    Worth noting that the Thaumaturge shield implement was added before it was remastered.

    We've gotten the same amount of Psychic post-release support that most splatbook classes get. That's why the exceptions stand out and are great to see.

    Horizon Hunters

    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

    There's also https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3983 Trusty Helmet added by Battlecry!, but can't be used in PFS cuz they didn't put a duration on the hunker down ability

    Cognates

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    I don't think its as unlikely as it used to be. We're definetly seeing an increased amount of post-release support for non-core classes in the past few books. Magus, Inventor, Thaumaturge and Summoner have all got stuff in the past year. That's not bad, by paizos standards anyway. (Also non-core ancestries have been thrown bones, that's really good to see).

    I would urge caution against hoping for new options to fix the class, we'll probably get new stuff eventually but it's not going to solve a lot of people's pain points.


    Tridus wrote:
    Kelseus wrote:
    Part of the reason I suspect we haven't gotten much Psychic support in the last 3 years is because it was not remastered. Paizo probably didn't want to print anything for the Psychic that didn't work with the new class.

    Worth noting that the Thaumaturge shield implement was added before it was remastered.

    We've gotten the same amount of Psychic post-release support that most splatbook classes get. That's why the exceptions stand out and are great to see.

    True, but I think we all knew the Thaum needed a light pass the Psychic was going to get at least some significant changes.


    And it ended up being bad changes...Even if they add new support they aren't going to fix the bad changes. The most we will see is a Wisdom Mind maybe. Which be cool and that make the Psychic useful.

    Silver Crusade

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Given the Dark Archive Remaster outstripped sales expectations, I wouldn't be surprised if there's another book of Occult shenanigans with more psychic options added to the slate in the near to mid-future.


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    DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
    Given the Dark Archive Remaster outstripped sales expectations, I wouldn't be surprised if there's another book of Occult shenanigans with more psychic options added to the slate in the near to mid-future.

    I suspect this was just a result of the new store being too incompetent to not force subscriptions on people who already had the book and their warnings about this in advance not being received or heeded.


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    Doubt it. Seems the wizard and psychic are stuck as they are. Apparently enough people like the wizard that is deemed fine and I would guess the psychic is the other way where not sufficient interest to put much more time into it.


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    DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
    Given the Dark Archive Remaster outstripped sales expectations, I wouldn't be surprised if there's another book of Occult shenanigans with more psychic options added to the slate in the near to mid-future.

    Changing the default to opt-out from opt-in for subscribers getting it would naturally result in more sales, because there's been tons of studies done on UX in computer science in terms of defaults and that's a general truth: a lot of people won't change the default.


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    I think it would be fun to think of some possible options they could get in a book! Something small but thematically tied to an overall theme, like the newer options for Thaumaturge/Magus/Inventor/Etc.

    I could see a subconscious mind for a Starfinder-related book: the Hive Mind! Representing the shared psychic connection that an entire psionic species shares, such as Lashunta and Shirren.

    Their key ability score could be Int, or perhaps even it would be the first Wisdom based psychic? I could see their Psyche Action being something that reinforces the "hivemind" design space and tropes- repositioning allies, or giving buffs to flanking!

    What do you guys think?


    Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

    I think it would be fun to think of some possible options they could get in a book! Something small but thematically tied to an overall theme, like the newer options for Thaumaturge/Magus/Inventor/Etc.

    I could see a subconscious mind for a Starfinder-related book: the Hive Mind! Representing the shared psychic connection that an entire psionic species shares, such as Lashunta and Shirren.

    Their key ability score could be Int, or perhaps even it would be the first Wisdom based psychic? I could see their Psyche Action being something that reinforces the "hivemind" design space and tropes- repositioning allies, or giving buffs to flanking!

    What do you guys think?

    Seems more like a Mystic thing to me, since they had something similar in SF1 and the Mystic already has a shared telepathic network.

    Psychic already has The Silent Whisper, and while that's a conscious mind, it's in the same thematic ballpark. If we did get it as a subconscious mind, "connection between people" is usually charisma, although I guess I could see "group intellect" being Int-based. Wisdom feels out of left field for hive mind to me?

    If I were to speculate about a Starfinder Subconscious Mind for Psychic... I think I'd probably go for something to represent Psychics created by experimentation and research programs. Int-based one themed around having undergone rigorous training, to fit your Kerrigans and the like.

    (I think it's worth noting that Lashunta and other telepathic species don't have a hive mind or anything like one, so the theming would probably be more around the Swarm. We actually see that sort of thing show up as a xenophobic conspiracy theory in Era of the Eclipse.)


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    Tridus wrote:


    We've gotten the same amount of Psychic post-release support that most splatbook classes get. That's why the exceptions stand out and are great to see.

    Have we though?

    The animist got new apparitions, gunslinger got a new way, inventor got a new innovation/class archetype and a TON of feats, magus got a bunch of new hybrid studies, thaumaturge got a new implement, summoner got new eidolons, and exemplar got new epithets.

    The only splatbook classes that haven't gotten anything yet are commander, guardian, and psychic...Two of those came out 6 months ago, one of them came out in 2022.

    Psychic is pretty starved for new content even compared to other new classes.


    QuidEst wrote:


    Seems more like a Mystic thing to me, since they had something similar in SF1 and the Mystic already has a shared telepathic network.

    Psychic already has The Silent Whisper, and while that's a conscious mind, it's in the same thematic ballpark. If we did get it as a subconscious mind, "connection between people" is usually charisma, although I guess I could see "group intellect" being Int-based. Wisdom feels out of left field for hive mind to me?

    If I were to speculate about a Starfinder Subconscious Mind for Psychic... I think I'd probably go for something to represent Psychics created by experimentation and research programs. Int-based one themed around having undergone rigorous training, to fit your Kerrigans and the like.

    (I think it's worth noting that Lashunta and other telepathic species don't have a hive mind or anything like one, so the theming would probably be more around the Swarm. We actually see that sort of thing show up as a xenophobic conspiracy theory in Era of the Eclipse.)

    This all makes sense! I definitely think that the Mystic taps into a lot of my favorite psychic design space- empathy, emotions, connections through people, etc.

    I actually WAS thinking about the swarm as an influence on this design, but I thought that someone would nitpick me to death about the swarm not being playable. Wisdom just felt like a possible answer for a psychic connection that isn't intentionally cultivated, but is natural and based on awareness of others & the world around you.

    How would an experimentation and research psychic be different from the "intellectual training and control" subconscious mind? I'd be curious to see that in action!


    Maybe!

    Paizo doesn't really seem to consider how much content a class has when designing new options, it's all seems pretty whim based.

    So there's nothing stopping Paizo from publishing more psychic content. There are plenty of mechanics or ideas they could explore.

    But like... the Exemplar got new epithets in an adventure book nine months after the class came out.

    Ranger and Investigator didn't get a new subclass for five years.

    The Cleric has 29 non-core first level focus spells. The Druid, also an original class, has five.

    When the psychic will get more support and what it will look like can just kind of be anything within that ballpark or outside it.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    At least since the system remaster was announced, I wonder if there has been hesitancy to publish new psychic options because it seemed like the class might need some significant changes?

    Of course, none of those changes have ended up happening, so maybe it is just that there hasn’t been the right AP or campaign setting book that has come up for it yet. Although an animal whisperer psychic is missing design space that would have fit in call of the wild.


    bsmith709 wrote:
    magus got a bunch of new hybrid studies

    I wouldn’t cite those as examples, they only got one worth playing and only at levels 12 and above


    I think the changes to the store could lead paizo into a decline. Things like subscription default to buy a book most have is scummy. I think the new store is a strict downgrade of the old store.


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    Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
    ScooterScoots wrote:
    bsmith709 wrote:
    magus got a bunch of new hybrid studies
    I wouldn’t cite those as examples, they only got one worth playing and only at levels 12 and above

    New class options are new class options. There's no guarantee that psychic will get options that you consider to be worth playing if it ever gets more support.

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