I've attempted to make several exemplar characters since the class' release, and I've found that in almost every instance, another class does it better.
Exemplar with a rifle? Gunslinger has better action economy and raw numbers.
Exemplar archer? Ranger does it better.
Melee exemplar? Barbarian and fighter topple it easily.
Bag of tricks exemplar? Bard and rogue have WAY more options available.
Every concept (more than those shown above) that I've come up with has failed to find a niche that some other class didn't fulfill better in almost every way.
So, what then, is the exemplar class supposed to be doing? It has a strong conceptual niche, but it's mechanical niche--whatever that's supposed to be--seems more and more lacking to me.
What are your thoughts on the class' role and abilities?
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My experience with an Exemplar is from the playtest, in which my younger daughter played a leshy exemplar named Nightshade: Playtesting in a Fistful of Flowers with 7 Leshies. She predicted the not-best-at-anything that Ravingdork describes.
Mechanics: The ikons are fun. It's a very flexible class for what specific build you end up with since you are picking three options out of their respective pools. It generally seems to fall as DPS with the ability to off-tank and/or support as well. You can build more pure DPS with your choices, but it's likely that you won't be quite as good at DPS compared to a class like barbarian, which is all about that. Instead, you get more utility and flexibility. ...
Thus, it is a martially flexible class rather than a martially powerful class. That makes it strong in my campaigns, because my PCs alternate between playing the spearpoint of the party in which their abilities are exactly what is needed to defeat the enemies and playing the haft of the spear in which their abilities serve to support the spearpoint characters.
My daughter's views were that playing an exemplar felt cool. And "mechanically, it's a middle complexity martial fighter class with tank/support options. Enjoyable to play for people who know what they are doing and not going to suck completely even if you don't since none of the options are bad."
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Every concept (more than those shown above) that I've come up with has failed to find a niche that some other class didn't fulfill better in almost every way.
So, what then, is the exemplar class supposed to be doing? It has a strong conceptual niche, but it's mechanical niche--whatever that's supposed to be--seems more and more lacking to me.
What are your thoughts on the class' role and abilities?
I would say that the other commenters have it right: the Exemplar isn't really about being the best at one specific niche, in my opinion, so much as alternating between different strengths. They can do something amazing each turn, but the amazing thing they do is meant to be different each time: if the aim is to deal nothing but damage each turn, then for sure another class will do that better, but otherwise the Exemplar can dance between Strike damage, utility, AoE, and other benefits as well, accessing a more versatile total package than most martial classes. It can be frustrating if you're trying to maximize a specific aspect of your character or if you want to use a transcendence you have from an ikon that doesn't currently have your spark, but in my limited experience it can also lead to this wonderful flow state when you chain transcendences together smoothly and make a significant impact each time.
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I think exemplars have some interesting flexibility with weapons. Humble strikes means some simple weapons become competitive with martial weapons. And there's enough different weapon ikons that you can find one that works for your preferred weapon.
Taken together, it allows you to make some weapons viable that otherwise wouldn't be. Other classes that give a damage boost (barbarian, rogue) tend to have more restrictions about what your preferred weapons are. Exemplar is pretty flexible. If you want to go agile+strength based, this is a good class for it.
Seen one Exemplar so far - you'll be surprised how far Gaze as Sharp as Steel + any melee ikon + Hurl at the horizon (with a returning rune) can take you. Hi, yes, I would like a thrown d12 weapon please. Vow of Mortal Defiance is also a bizarrely good undead chewer because almost all undead are unholy but most aren't weak to holy; if that player starts their turn 'next' (within 10ft, because thrown) to some chonking zombie brute (yes, we are playing Blood Lords, how did you guess) that is a lot of dice to throw.
Something like this is what I was looking at for exemplar. They seem like they get some very interesting stuff that works with/improves throwing weapons. They just seem like they have some very good support for that which is a more rare niche.
ctrl-f: "epithet" [zero results]
smdh
You need to have a concept that uses your epithet(s) frequently if not constantly, whether it's drawing aggro with Proud, flatfooting with Cunning, reloading with Deft (I wish Steal/Palm actually did anything in combat RAW), defensive debuffing with Mournful, clutch/rotational healing with Radiant, or mobile melee chasing guys down with Brave.
7th gives you usually stronger options to mix in with AOE difficult terrain (Bones of the Earth), survivability with refreshing temp HP (Dancer in the Seasons), caster sustaining support that is effectively a free action quicken (Verse Unbroken), free action faux demoralize (Peerless Under Heaven), free step every round or chance to move an enemy (Restless as the Tide), or a sad little embarassing amount of thorns damage (Whose Cry is Thunder).
The Sovereignity Epithets are pretty bad, unfortunately.
I agree that Exemplar's core spark mechanic can create a feeling of diminished specialization due to alternating across turns, though I do think the existing tools can result in Exemplar having one or two "best at ___" niches.
My own Exemplar is only on the shelf and has not been played, but the first possible "best" that jumps out is that Exemplar could be the best tank/survivalist in the system. Swapping between Scar and Barrow's does allow for a crazy amount of no-cost self-healing, and if the PC really wants to, they can pick even more defense via Epithets and that 3rd Ikon. Even the late game feats like Warped By Rage & Complete the Hero's Journey provide yet more survivability.
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The other niche "possible best" for Exemplar is one that might be a bit more yikes for the GM, which is foe lockdown. There are a lot of options here, both save and no save effects.
Only the Worthy is a no-save Immobilize that requires the foe to do a MAP action, often at a -2 "no crowbar" penalty.
Even the often overlooked Epithet effects can impose serious stuff.
At L7, the Exemplar can choose to Immobilize on crit hit, which is a different and therefore stackable form of foe control.
Having access to these custom forms of hard CC means an Exemplar that focuses on Athletics for the base Trip/Grapple can do an absurd amount of action denial on their own, though of course it shines most when there's a Slow-slinging spellcaster on the field.
I also want to shout out the Fetching Bangles for imposing a "save or disrupt" effect upon foe movement. The aura is tiny, but that threat of lost actions is perfect for getting foes to choose to attack the Exemplar first.
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I haven't played an exemplar yet (I have one built pretty much since release but the campaign I want to play him its getting delayed unfortunately) but I made a few NPCs with the class and I feel that, while the class is fun, its like one step below from being really good.
I agree with Trip.H that the class feels "unspecialized" due to how Shift Immanence and Spark Trascendence works, which IMO could be easily solved if at least one of your ikons was permanently attuned while your spark shifts between between your other two ikons. For example, Mirrored Aegis, Victor's Wreath, and most of the weapon ikons are arguably better on someone with the exemplar archetype than with a full exemplar since for them they become permanent passive benefits unlike an exemplar which can potentially lose benefit from them for a round.
There fact that there's 3 ikons also kinda makes it that most of time exemplars will switch between their 2 "main" ikons and ignore the 3rd one. The exemplar I want to play is going to take Gleaming Blade, Gaze Sharp as Steel, and Scar Of The Survivor since those are the ones that make sense with his character background, but I honestly don't really see myself ever shifting into Gaze Sharp as Steel unless outside of combat because Gleaming Blade is just plainly better.
I also think the damage bonus being baked into the weapon ikons themselves is also wrong. I think it would be much better if exemplars had bonus spirit damage equal to twice their weapon damage die passively similar to thaumaturges and weapon ikons instead had more interesting passives effects, possibly with some of them interacting in some way with that bonus to damage like the Barrow's Edge or Titan's Breaker ikons do.
I also think the damage bonus being baked into the weapon ikons themselves is also wrong. I think it would be much better if exemplars had bonus spirit damage equal to twice their weapon damage die passively similar to thaumaturges and weapon ikons instead had more interesting passives effects, possibly with some of them interacting in some way with that bonus to damage like the Barrow's Edge or Titan's Breaker ikons do.Their version of Weapon Specialisation does provide Spirit Damage, which can be affected by Energized Spark.
So by level 7 the energy damage types can be a passive. Plus by this level you get the Elemental runes too.
Except all martials have weapon specialization as well and still have their damage steroids baked in their class from the beggining. The fact that the exemplar's weapon specialization-adjacent feature is spirit damage doesn't change this or justify this. Plus, the exemplar's spirit striking scales way worse than ikons too, which its explained because, much like weapon specialization, its a small bonus to keep the damage competitive rather than a main feature of the class.
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You don't have an off turn.
If your weapon Ikon is active, you do any other attacks before you Transcend (although your Transcendence probably is your attack). If your weapon Ikon isn't active, you Transcend (or Shift Immanence) and then attack.
It's unusual not to have your weapon Ikon active when you attack.
The limit of one transcend a round really limits what you can do with the ikons.
For example, if you use Gaze Sharp as Steel for the defensive bonuses against ranged attacks with your archer exemplar then for your first action transcend A Moment Unending to get the precision damage bonus on your next attack and into Unfailing Bow for the passive damage bonus, Strike with your bow and hit, you can't then make use of Arrow Splits Arrow.
In fact, you will almost never get to use Arrow Splits Arrow while benefitting from those other ikons.
The exemplar is rife with "obvious combos" that simply don't work well, if at all, due to that limitation. It's a shame they limited the class so much. I've seen more than my fair share of exemplars who, in practice, had at least one dead ikon that almost never saw the light of day.
The class would have been better if they started with only two ikons and didn't have the once per round transcend limitation.
In that example you won't benefit from the precision damage because you've already used it. But I'm not sure what extra combo you're missing there.
The combo of following up a high damage hit with a guarantee of another high damage hit (especially if you were lucky enough to have crit the first time). Sure the precision damage doesn't carry over to the second Strike, since that is once per round (what is it with Paizo limiting everything to once per round anyways?), but guaranteed extra damage after already landing a high damage Strike would have been pretty sweet.
My point is, if you take all the ikons that benefit archers, you can't benefit from them all. If you take all the ikons that benefit throwing weapons, you can't benefit from them all. If you take all the ikons for most any other theme you want, you can't benefit from them all.
It's inefficient. It's lack of synergy. It's waste. It's the extra hoops that hold back the swashbuckler, the witch hexes, the inventor, and many other classes.
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If you take all the ikons for most any other theme you want, you can't benefit from them all.
It's inefficient. It's lack of synergy. It's waste. It's the extra hoops that hold back the swashbuckler, the witch hexes, the inventor, and many other classes.
I get that you've got a bit wit this particular alias, but that's not true at all - none of the ones I've played have had this problem.
My current one has Mirrored Aegis, Scar of the Survivor, and Noble Branch, his theme being Greek hero/hoplite/Greek myth inspired, and I just Spark Transcendence on Mirrored Aegis at the start of combat, which lasts basically the entirety of any combat my group runs, and then I can easily switch between Scar of the Survivor and Noble Branch.
There's plenty of other ways to benefit from all of your Ikons, so again, not true at all that you can't.
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Thaumaturge's extra damage requires actions and a check. Exemplars will almost always attack with a weapon Ikon active.
I'm not talking about exploit weakness, I'm talking about implement's empowerment which is quite literally the same bonus to damage exemplars get from their ikons except spirit damage and not limited to one-handed weapons. And I could mention others like the barbarian's rage which they can activate as a free action when rolling initiative, the fighter's or gunslinger's higher proficiencies which are obviously always on, the rogue's sneak attack which is pretty much a permanent boost to damage in 90% of turns, and the swashbuckler's precise strike damage.
Gaze as Sharp as Steel is your off turn weapon ikon, really. Does make you vulnerable to precision immunity but you're still better off than rogues and swashbucklers
You don't have an off turn.
If your weapon Ikon is active, you do any other attacks before you Transcend (although your Transcendence probably is your attack). If your weapon Ikon isn't active, you Transcend (or Shift Immanence) and then attack.
Quoted material here....It's unusual not to have your weapon Ikon active when you attack.
I would hardly call Gaze Sharp as Steel as better than what rogues and swashbucklers have as "still better off", but that's me I guess.
In the example I mentioned of a Gleaming Blade / Scar of the Survivor / Gaze Sharp as Steel exemplar, the most likely action rotation is going to be trascend with Gleaming Blade at the end of turn a) and shift immanence to Scar of the Survivor, and then trascend with Scar of the Survivor at the beggining of turn b) to shift immanence to Gleaming Blade to benefit from its damage boost and to repeat this routine again on the next turn. A +1 bonus to Perception checks and a +2 to AC against ranged attacks is IMO a situational bonus that, if you were to shift into it, would also mean you'll be trascending with your weapon ikon every 2 turns instead of every other turn. I just don't really see why I would want to do that in most scenarios since I'm actually nerfing my damage while doing that.
In the case of this particular exemplar I mentioned earlier, Gaze Sharp as Steel is going to pretty much always be the ikon you are never going to shift immanence into. Like the Contrarian said, I feel an Unfaling Bow / Gaze Sharp as Steel exemplar is a much better fit for Gaze Sharp as Steel, but that means that whatever 3rd ikon they pick is going to take the place of the "you are never going to shift immanence into it" ikon instead.
I get that you've got a bit wit this particular alias, but that's not true at all - none of the ones I've played have had this problem.
My current one has Mirrored Aegis, Scar of the Survivor, and Noble Branch, his theme being Greek hero/hoplite/Greek myth inspired, and I just Spark Transcendence on Mirrored Aegis at the start of combat, which lasts basically the entirety of any combat my group runs, and then I can easily switch between Scar of the Survivor and Noble Branch.
There's plenty of other ways to benefit from all of your Ikons, so again, not true at all that you can't.
Your case is an exemption from the norm since Mirrored Aegis is AFAIK the only ikon that you can trascend once during an encounter and ignore it. Most, if not all ikons were designed to be used ASAP or to be the second option that you take after trascending with your weapon ikon that you also want to trascend with them ASAP to regain your damage boosts. Saying its possible to benefit from all your ikons is simply not true for non-Mirrored Aegis exemplars.
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Back to what I was saying earlier, unlike other martials which have their damage boost baked in the class itself from the beggining, an exemplar can choose to not take a weapon ikon if they want to. This is of course not an optimal choice, but one that's certainly possible, which would lead to scenarios when players build a sub-optimal exemplar which I believe was one of the things PF2e devs wanted to avoid happening when designing the system.
Most of the transcendence effects from weapon ikons are similar to that of already existing feats other martials have access to, but unlike those feats which can be used every turn, you can only trascend with each ikon every other turn. This, plus the fact that some exemplars could run into a scenario where they shift immanence between their ikons incorrectly (not doing the ikon A - ikon B rotation) or that some exemplars could not have weapon ikons at all leads to a class that feels weirdly rigid and that despite having a ton of options at their disposal the result is a martial that's not that much strong or versatile in practice.
As I said earlier, I feel this would be solved by making one of your ikons permanently attuned while the shift immanence thing was only for your 2nd and 3rd ikons. That or similar to the Contrarian's suggestion make it so you have two ikons which are both permanently attuned but you can only spark trascendence once per turn.
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My point is, if you take all the ikons that benefit archers, you can't benefit from them all. If you take all the ikons that benefit throwing weapons, you can't benefit from them all. If you take all the ikons for most any other theme you want, you can't benefit from them all.
It's inefficient. It's lack of synergy. It's waste. It's the extra hoops that hold back the swashbuckler, the witch hexes, the inventor, and many other classes.
Yup, that's the intended effect of that core Exemplar design, and IMO that part is 10/10 amazing ttrpg design.
My growing bugbear is that every Paizo dev seems to work inside a black hole and has no one to slap some balance sense into them.
I hate to say it, but far too many Ikons and feats are just trash from a balance/power PoV. One outcome of the spark shifting design is that each PC really needs all of their Ikons to contribute to their build, else that will be a huge void.
There are so few (good) Ikons, that I'd say most PC theme ideas are not supported, or worse, become traps that'll making playing unfun. The #1 problem with Exemplar right now is that there are not enough Ikons to offer players many ways to properly kit out an Exemplar.
As you noticed, Ikons are built from the ground up to have anti-synergy with each other, and you instead want/need to give the PC a set of tools that'll both be diverse but potent enough to deal with the "every other turn" spam limiter of the spark mechanic.
That's not easy to do with the current Ikons. The reason Scar is so good is not because of the healing value, but because it's a "zero requirement" 1A way to gain some for certain useful effect, healing, while you are getting that spark where you actually want it to be. Scar is a filler Ikon. (Aegis is the other main valid pick for that task)
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It's a lot easier for me to talk about things in a ~'result was success/fail' manner than the more judgey "dev was stupid" observation, so bear with me.
At L2, the Exemplar can take a Rogue Dedication. This grants 1 skill feat, Surprise Attack, and a skill training (at the low L where it actually is helpful)
This also unlocks access to Rogue feats.
At L2, the Exemplar can select Leap the Falls. This class feat grants an Immanence effect to a single Ikon, and while active, grants the Powerful Leap and Quick Jump skill feats.
This is an abysmal failure of balance and feat design. I cannot say for certain why such "never take this" feats keep getting published, but they really, really do damage to their class, and damage the pf2 system as a whole.
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Exemplar really is the "oops, didn't notice that catch" trap class.
Far more than most. They rely upon their exclusive build choices like Ikons & Epithets for their every-fight power much more than other classes. If the player chooses wrong, they had best beg the GM for a rebuild-- if they can even first pinpoint that one selection as part of their performance/satisfaction problem.
Heard that Exemplar allows one to throw a greatsword around?
Well, be sure that you know what that one word "Immanence:" means first. The moment the spark is not in the weapon, your ability to make throws is gone. And since you obviously invested that PC's budget into making throws instead of melee swings, you really, really need to know before the session that the ability will be constantly flipping on and off, else you're in for a bad time.
Not only does the reader need to be seriously savvy with the pf2 system to be able to anticipate those pitfalls, but they also need to be able to sus out which few options are diamonds in the rough.
The main low level example is that Only the Worthy feat. Bothering to read the linked action of Force Open reveals that it's a MAP action like Escape, and that it'll also be performed at a -2 most of the time. And it's not spark dependent. Even if you need Prone first, this is a PC defining power.
The high level example is Warped by Rage. All the text referencing the Enlarge and Moon Frenzy spells is still important, but this feat hides an ability entirely unrelated to the rage idea, and as far as I know is exclusive to that one feat. I encourage you to open the link and first read it with that hint in mind.
As far as I know, this is the only way in the class to 0A bounce the spark (important enough that a 0A Shift is a 1 p day feat effect). While still an amazing tool to keep the spark where you want it, it's also not a blank check. It's still a Transcend, and still invokes the once per turn limit. But if you care about Immanence passives, adding this to one of your other Ikons can give you an entirely new 0A means of moving the spark.
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I do want to emphasize that I adore the core design of the Exemplar.
It is a perfect example of complexity done right. The rules governing spark movement and Ikons is static and simple enough. Those mechanics are fixed, meaning the player will have the book-knowledge needed to decrypt and understand the emergent complexity created by the specific Ikons. Even that above feat doesn't break the Exemplar's rules, it just adds a new tool for interacting with them.
IMO, almost all the pain points of Exemplar come from the existing pf2 sharp edges. The lack of a meaningful editor/balancer pass alone means that every intended Exemplar build/style that's got a badly written Ikon/Epithet is just Dead on Arrival and is a player trap.
The bad kind of "memory check" complexity is also still inside Exemplar, and that does compound with the core Spark stuff, so it is still hard to recommend the class. Other pf2 classes outright lack Exemplar's core complexity altogether, and are not going to suffer like an Exemplar where the player doesn't death-grip those few above-the-curve effects.
The release of Commander has eaten a fair amount of the support Exemplar, whose Ikons do things like granting allies reactions to Stride.
And Guardian especially has eaten the biggest chunk of Exemplar's lunch by being a proper tank/controller class. Before Guardian, that type of character was quite limited in class selection, and the Champion's deific dogma often didn't fit.
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Yeah, I didn't say it was you get all the benefits all the time - that's not the point of the class, nor did Paizo intend it to be, but you can get every benefit from every ikon in an encounter, some overlapping before one tapers off and some in burst moments, and then some have great utility out of combat, too.
I don't really think a class that has some built-in tactical complexity needs fixes to the thing its trying to do, you just need to really know your build and what you want to do turn-to-turn - maybe a bit more thinking ahead than some other classes, but that's fine.
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Part of the problem with the Exemplar is that it sought to be able to embody the stories of heroes from mythology, which in large part the entire D&D/Pathfinder paradigm already tries to do with every character. High level PCs are supposed to have legendary items, a big history of heroic acts, fame far and wide, and a shot at challenging the gods or rising to divinity. That's a really common way of playing high level characters since forever.
The Exemplar, narratively and mechanically, is sort of a redundant subsystem layered on top of some foundational heroic fantasy adventurer TTRPG assumptions. They mix and match abilities that ordinarily would be spread throughout a party because their inspirations were often solo-acts, they draw class power from items that would ordinarily show up later in the game because mythological figures normally start high level and they had to square that circle, and they go about their party roles in nonstandard ways to differentiate themselves from the classes that would otherwise represent their mythological inspirations.
It's not a bad class, I appreciate its variety, utility, and flexibility. I think it's unfair to compare them at face value and say another class does their schtick better. In total, I think they're pretty well balanced.
I do find it a shame that they're so item/ikon focused, and are more of a mythological hero, main character-lite class than a Godling class. It would have been nice if many items being kinda boring had been solved so that everyone could have cool items, instead of making a class that kind of hoards the cool item concept.
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Not only does the reader need to be seriously savvy with the pf2 system to be able to anticipate those pitfalls, but they also need to be able to sus out which few options are diamonds in the rough.
I wonder if this is one of the reasons why it is a Rare class. Lord knows I've looked over the class details a dozen times, have attempted making several characters, and still haven't found anything that felt complete, viable, or didn't suffer a major pitfall halfway through its creation.
It is a tricky beast to be sure. In my case, part of the problem is all the seriously verbose names that trip me up. My brain just can't seem to hold them in mind while I look for other synergetic abilities with their own verbose names.
I think what attracts me to the class, as the potential next thing for me to play, is a multitude of things. The fact that it has a very evocative gameplay loop, how trivially easy to refluff away from the its "godling" fluff into something less over-the-top, and how it is potentially capable of a wide variety of things in a given set of turns even if it's not the best at any given thing. In a lot of ways, I think it fulfills a pretty good chunk of what I want out of a spellsword better than some of the actual "gish" classes in the system does-I just have to blow a few feats on energized spark first so I can do some cheeky elementally-charged attacks.
Which kinda spins into one of the bigger hurdles I faced faced when planning a few out to maybe play in future campaigns-building one is complicated, yes, but part of that is just how many things seem really underwhelming. It could really stand to have both a few more options, and tweaks on the underperformers. Leap The Falls has been mentioned, but I can't not rag on it as one of the worst offenders. I also look at Mated Birds in Paired Flight and get the impression it sort of feels like someone took a level 4 and 6 feat and mushed them together to make a level 10 feat?
I just want to highlight what has already been mentioned, but in different words: The exemplar very much requires the person playing one to embrace the PF2e paradigm of not doing the exact same thing each round. It is basically the "anti-D&D 3.x/PF1e" class in this respect.
Trying to play an exemplar that "just hits things" will likely cause frustration because the class is designed to switch between different action sequences each round (usually; you can spend an action to shift immanence at the start of each round if you want to keep sparking transcendence from the same ikon [Mortal Harvest, for example]).
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In the example I mentioned of a Gleaming Blade / Scar of the Survivor / Gaze Sharp as Steel exemplar, the most likely action rotation is going to be trascend with Gleaming Blade at the end of turn a) and shift immanence to Scar of the Survivor, and then trascend with Scar of the Survivor at the beggining of turn b) to shift immanence to Gleaming Blade to benefit from its damage boost and to repeat this routine again on the next turn. A +1 bonus to Perception checks and a +2 to AC against ranged attacks is IMO a situational bonus that, if you were to shift into it, would also mean you'll...You could replace Scar of the Survivor with Gaze as Sharp as Steel in that rotation? And yes, Exemplars are baseline expected to have two main ikons they bounce between to keep all Strikes done by weapon ikons, I don't see what's wrong with that. It's a fairly clear picture, and you can choose to deviate when you need to without shooting yourself in the foot if weapon icons were permanent. Right now your third ikon could be a different weapon, or a situational ikon like Bands of Imprisonment, that's good!
(Also, Implement Empowerment exists because Thaumaturges have one hand and it compensates for that. Exemplars can just... use a 2 handed weapon or a shield)
Yeah, I could replace it, but why would I? The exemplar is a front line martial so I kinda expect my character to take damage every turn in most scenarios. PF2e encounters don't usually last more than 3-4 rounds, so in the only turn I would probably switch between Gleaming Blade into Gaze Sharp as Steel is the first round if I get to go first, but if I do that, I probably risk having to switch into Scar of the Survivor in the second round if I take a lot of damage during that round, which means I'm delaying switching into Gleaming Blade to the third turn which is were most of my real damage comes from.
I also know you could probably take another weapon ikon as your third ikon as well, but why not instead do you take the the "Your Strikes deal 2 additional spirit damage per weapon damage die" part and make it a baseline feature since it pretty much already is and allow me to take ikons I actually want to take instead of forcing me to take specific ones? That change alone would make the exemplar truly feel more versatile because you wouldn't be presured into switching into your weapon ikon ASAP and probably play a more supportive exemplar if I wanted too. Not all myth heroes were skilled warriors, like Orpheus, Asclepius, and arguably Odysseus since he was more known because of his wit than his combat prowess. Odysseus is probably the perfect exemple here since here even if you were to focus on support you'll still have to fight enemies like a regular martial, but your main contribution would come from your support abilities.
The TLDR is that I feel there's no reason to make a class that, in theory, can be built in million ways by taking certain combinations of ikons if in practice at least one of those options is always going to be set on a specific weapon ikon and because of that one of the other ikons is rarely going to be used. I would hardly call making one of your ikons an "always on" thing or take the damage from the weapon ikons and make it its own feature since in practice this is already the case anyways.
(Btw, Implement's Empowerment is a compensation from thaumaturges not being able to use two-handed weapons, but they also have exploit weakness too. Compare that to the inventor and its, in the best case scenario, +7 to damage after making a check (which they can fail BTW, unlike a thaumaturge which they can only crit fail at) which makes the thaumaturge look more like a demigod than an exemplar in comparisson. And just in case, I'm not arguing to make the exemplar OP or anything. I feel the class is just a few steps below the power level the class should have because of, arguably, a problem that could be solved in an errata).
By the way, I do consider Gaze to very much be one of those trap terrible Ikons.
While it does last until end of next turn, 1A for a 3.5 avg dmg boost upping to avg 7 at L10 is horrendously bad.
IMO, it's only viable as a host to be used for its Immanence w/ some other Trans feat acquired later, and I'd still need some serious RP reason for it to be a part of the character.
The Mirrored Aegis just does the defensive side of of Gaze so much better. And there's no "only one buff" clause in the Aegis Trans ability, so you can even slap a whole fight buff on any number of allies you wish.
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If you want to boost damage, I strongly recommend thinking with archetypes (and items, spells), which immediately helps to understand why Gaze is so bad.
Being able to benefit from something like Arch Rogue --> Sneak attack and gain 0A damage with no spark competition makes it waaaaay better.
There are just far too many options across pf2 to spend actions to increase Strike damage, from Fighter feats to even arch spellcasting for options like 1 p 10 min Sure Strike. If you don't want to spend feats, then even options like Horn of Plenty provide free elixirs that can be buffing mutagens like Energy for strike damage, etc.
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IMO, it's only viable as a host to be used for its Immanence w/ some other Trans feat acquired later, and I'd still need some serious RP reason for it to be a part of the character.
Yeah, I could see Gaze Sharp as Steel being a good out-of-combat ikon since you can immediately switch to another one when rolling initiative, but besides that I feel its a kinda boring and weak ikon. The whole reason why I'm taking it in the first place its because the character I'm playing has background stuff in regards to his eyes (well, eye, since he lost the other one) because rather than being tied to the remnants of the soul of a god he's more like a descendant way down the line of a mythical one-eyed giant that once existed in the setting. I took the basic concept of Cúchulainn being a descendant of Balor from irish myths for it.
I just want to highlight what has already been mentioned, but in different words: The exemplar very much requires the person playing one to embrace the PF2e paradigm of not doing the exact same thing each round. It is basically the "anti-D&D 3.x/PF1e" class in this respect.
Trying to play an exemplar that "just hits things" will likely cause frustration because the class is designed to switch between different action sequences each round (usually; you can spend an action to shift immanence at the start of each round if you want to keep sparking transcendence from the same ikon [Mortal Harvest, for example]).
And yet the most common advice I see online regarding the exemplar is to find your ikon-based routine and stick to it nearly every round.
I am disgusted to see so many mentions of Gaze as Sharp as Steel, knowing you just have to get to level 10 to take Breath of Vital Ash and make that piddly single target bonus damage cry.
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Gaze is bad because 1A is simply worth more than a +3.5 dmg to next hit effect.
That's so low, that you might as well 1A Shift Immanence, because that doesn't trigger the 1 p turn Trans restraint.Seriously. If you main a weapon Ikon, you'll do much more damage spending 1A to manually shift into the weapon and use the weapon's Trans every chance you get. If you use Gaze's Trans to boost your next hit, that will literally lower your damage output in the context of Exemplar's mechanics.
You are more likely to save an action or two across a combat thanks to things like the bonus passive speed from the Sandals, or from the Band's [Escape] + [Sudden Charge]. As those actions can become Strikes, their "damage" likely will exceed that of Gaze.
You need many pops of Gaze's pathetic 1d6 to match a single extra reg Strike hit thanks to an action save.
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One of countless details that Exemplar has to pay attention to is that those weapon Ikons that use a post-Strike 1A Trans get to benefit from Haste/Quickened, while those like Gleaming Blade with a 2A modified Strike Trans cannot.
This makes it genuinely possible to use that quintet of post-Strike weapon Trans abilities every turn via manual Shifting. With Haste, that 3A routine still allows for 1 spare ___ action for movement, etc. Much more painful to attempt for the 2A alt-Strike Ikons.
And oh, would you look at at that. By L8, the Horn of Plenty can provide 2 free potions of haste per day.
I also know you could probably take another weapon ikon as your third ikon as well, but why not...The Exemplar I run for uses Barrow's Edge, which both deviates from +2 damage and provides an alternative source of healing. They also don't Spark Transedence every round, content to stay on Barrow's Edge if there's other things to do with their action like moving twice their speed or opening doors.
The Exemplar isn't the Inventor who can completely fail to get their damage bonus for an entire fight, it's fine that you have to Make Choices and that those choices effect what you are. And if your choices mean you don't get 90% uptime on a weapon ikon, I should point out Champion gets nothing and is one of the best class in the game and the support options Exemplar get are pretty good.
When you get into 'Gaze is bad because you could instead blow 3+ feats on taking rogue archetype, archetype sneak attack and some other bespoke action' which ignores what Gaze does in the context of an Exemplar rotation I think you're getting too tunnel visioned into some arbitrary optimised DPS bar for your own good.
If having the best reactions in the system is "nothing" then I think we really aren't going to reach a common middle ground here. I also think you probably are overblowing what I'm saying here. I don't think the exemplar is a bad class. As I said earlier, I think the exemplar is a bit below the curve and that's it. On the other hand, I do think the inventor is a bad class for a million reasons (I don't really have the time to list them right now) and its IMO the worst class in the system.
Ignoring the fact that you seem to be mixing my comments with Trip.H's (though I agree with him on this one), why would it be bad to compare an option with other similar options that already exist in the system? In fact, this whole convo began with you telling me that exemplars didn't need to move their damage boost into its own passive feature because they had spirit striking...which is quite literally weapon specialization, the thing that all martials already have while still having their own damage boosts as well. A class or feature isn't designed on a vacuum. The job of a dev is to make every choice relevant when compared to other similar options, which BTW is one of the ethos behind PF2e. Gaze Sharp as Steel isn't just bad when compared to other similar options from other classes, its worse than similar options from the same class as well, which shows that Paizo even when making a system where most options don't feel like power creep, there's still options that feel like thrash.
I'm also going to be brutally honest here; if you are having fun with the exemplar class as is, why are you seemingly against a change that's going to make the class a bit more flexible and arguably a bit stronger too? If you think the current class is fine then that's great, but I think we can agree you are in the minority here when most of the users in the thread seem to agree exemplars tend to rotate between the same two ikons most of the time. All the proposed changes to fix this problem are fairly simple to implement and don't change the experience of the class for the people that already like it, while at the same time making it more palatable for those that have its issues. Wouldn't these changes be for the better overall? Its as if someone got angry when rogues got full martial weapon proficiencies on the Remaster because they were arguably one of the strongest classes anyways. Its not a matter of making the class stronger, its a matter of streamlining its mechanics.
To keep the ceiling intact while raising the floor. I think those are the important changes.
If you think the current class is fine then that's great, but I think we can agree you are in the minority here when most of the users in the thread seem to agree exemplars tend to rotate between the same two ikons most of the time.I mean, I think that that's a perfectly fine rotation and I'm not sure what's wrong with that? Sure, if the Exemplar had every ikon active all the time and could Transedence whenever (a bit of a simplification of your idea but still) and they were otherwise unchanged they would be stronger but I don't think they need to be stronger than they are currently... and also yeah, rogue is currently a bit too good because they QOLd every possible sticking point until they don't have a single moment they can't do their thing. A little bit if friction is good! The Exemplar already has a lot of flexibility built in, having to wait one turn isn't the end of the world, especially since the turn you're waiting isn't a dead turn by any standard.
I'll explain my rationale with an example.
Imagine you go to a restaurant where you must choose three different dishes for them to prepare for you. After a short wait, the dishes arrive and you start eating. The food is great, but you’re already full by the time you reach the third dish, so you leave it untouched. You enjoy the place so much that you keep coming back at least once a week. However, every time you visit, the same thing happens: you can never finish the third dish because you’re always full by then. The restaurant has a policy of throwing away any leftovers, so each visit ends up costing them money since that uneaten dish is wasted every time you go.
With that said, I want to ask; why does the restaurant keep preparing three dishes for every customer if most people only end up eating two?
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Thaumaturge's extra damage requires actions and a check. Exemplars will almost always attack with a weapon Ikon active.I'm not talking about exploit weakness, I'm talking about implement's empowerment which is quite literally the same bonus to damage exemplars get from their ikons except spirit damage and not limited to one-handed weapons.
Nope! That's the same extra damage that Exemplars can get by using a two-handed weapon, which my Exemplar does. The difference between them is that Thaumaturge is lock in to that option, while Exemplar has other options like weapon and shield.
That's a limitation Thaumaturges have. They give up use of a hand in combat for their class's flavor. Implement's Empowerment gives them the value of that hand back, but only by giving them the damage.And I could mention others like the barbarian's rage which they can activate as a free action when rolling initiative, the fighter's or gunslinger's higher proficiencies which are obviously always on, the rogue's sneak attack which is pretty much a permanent boost to damage in 90% of turns, and the swashbuckler's precise strike damage.
Sneak Attack and Precise Strike require actions and maneuvering. Sure, Rogues don't attack without Sneak Attack. That still takes effort to get--more than the Exemplar, I'd say, having played both.
Gaze as Sharp as Steel is your off turn weapon ikon, really. Does make you vulnerable to precision immunity but you're still better off than rogues and swashbucklersI would hardly call Gaze Sharp as Steel as better than what rogues and swashbucklers have as "still better off", but that's me I guess.You don't have an off turn.
If your weapon Ikon is active, you do any other attacks before you Transcend (although your Transcendence probably is your attack). If your weapon Ikon isn't active, you Transcend (or Shift Immanence) and then attack.
Quoted material here....It's unusual not to have your weapon Ikon active when you attack.
Pretty sure that their point was that you get both.
n the example I mentioned of a Gleaming Blade / Scar of the Survivor / Gaze Sharp as Steel exemplar, the most likely action rotation is going to be trascend with Gleaming Blade at the end of turn a) and shift immanence to Scar of the Survivor, and then trascend with Scar of the Survivor at the beggining of turn b) to shift immanence to Gleaming Blade to benefit from its damage boost and to repeat this routine again on the next turn. A +1 bonus to Perception checks and a +2 to AC against ranged attacks is IMO a situational bonus that, if you were to shift into it, would also mean you'll be trascending with your weapon ikon every 2 turns instead of every other turn. I just don't really see why I would want to do that in most scenarios since I'm actually nerfing my damage while doing that.
In the case of this particular exemplar I mentioned earlier, Gaze Sharp as Steel is going to pretty much always be the ikon you are never going to shift immanence into.
Okay, first of all "every other round" and "every two rounds" are the same thing.
Secondly, why are we treating the one you universally use outside of combat as never being used? It's the one you use the most!Thirdly, Scar of the Survivor isn't useful to Transcend until you're damaged. Gaze Sharp as Steel is more useful until you are. And the Immanence is much more useful, if there are ranged enemies in the encounter.
Lastly, why is having a more niche ability a bad thing? My Exemplar usually swaps between Gleaming Blade and Gaze Sharp as Steel. But he also has Fetching Bangles as another trick to pull out when it's useful. You haven't actually made the case for why this is bad.
Heard that Exemplar allows one to throw a greatsword around?
Well, be sure that you know what that one word "Immanence:" means first. The moment the spark is not in the weapon, your ability to make throws is gone. And since you obviously invested that PC's budget into making throws instead of melee swings, you really, really need to know before the session that the ability will be constantly flipping on and off, else you're in for a bad time.
Except, as noted, you can easily have your weapon Ikon active when making your attached basically all the time.
The main low level example is that Only the Worthy feat. Bothering to read the linked action of Force Open reveals that it's a MAP action like Escape, and that it'll also be performed at a -2 most of the time. And it's not spark dependent. Even if you need Prone first, this is a PC defining power.
It also requires the target to use a specific skill, making it completely impossible to escape for everyone's that aren't proficient in that skill after a few levels.
That doesn't seem intended, and it should probably allow Escape. This is one that actually doesn't work right...
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I'll explain my rationale with an example.
Imagine you go to a restaurant where you must choose three different dishes for them to prepare for you. After a short wait, the dishes arrive and you start eating. The food is great, but you’re already full by the time you reach the third dish, so you leave it untouched. You enjoy the place so much that you keep coming back at least once a week. However, every time you visit, the same thing happens: you can never finish the third dish because you’re always full by then. The restaurant has a policy of throwing away any leftovers, so each visit ends up costing them money since that uneaten dish is wasted every time you go.
With that said, I want to ask; why does the restaurant keep preparing three dishes for every customer if most people only end up eating two?
This is a bad analogy because the aspect that makes the three dishes bad is not an aspect of the three ikons. The third dish has a cost to prepare, so ignoring that dish wastes money. The third ikon has no cost, so ignoring it merely means you would rather use other ikons.
Let me change the analogy. Suppose I have three pots in my kitchen for cooking on my stove: a pan, a pot, and a steamer. I use the pan every day for frying eggs and cabbage for breakfast. I use the pot often for making soup and stew and mashed potatoes. I seldom use the steamer, because I use that only for steaming vegetables about once a month. Should I complain that I own a steamer?
In Pathfinder 2nd Edition, the spell Heal is used primarily for healing allies. But it can also damage undead opponents. I almost never use Heal to damage undead, because my weapon does that job just fine and I want to save my Heal spells for healing. Should I complain about the extra feature on Heal that harms undead?
I suppose someone could imagine that if the Exemplar lacked the third ikon, then the Exemplar could get a new feature to replace it. That would give the ikon an opportunity cost. But that is not how Pathfinder design works. Each class is designed for an exact degree of combat effectiveness by level. If the alternative feature would make the Exemplar more effective at combat than the standard, then the developers won't give the Exemplar that extra feature.
The steamer in my kitchen is there because I sometimes eat steamed vegetables. The harm-undead feature in the Heal spell is there because the heal font cleric has twin themes of preventing death and defeating undead monsters that represent death. This is about flavor of my meals or of a Pathfinder class, not about power.
The flavor of the exemplar is that they are empowered by a spark of the divine. The ikon represents that spark mechanically. Due to the power cap by level on all character classes, the ikon is limited in its power. Transcendence lets the exemplar exert a little more power in a carefully limited fashion to give the ikon more drama. Making transcendence more convenient would require putting a different limit on the effectiveness of transcendence, and that different limit might diminish the divine-spark theme of the exemplar class. Having a third ikon that is not used as often as the other two does not increase power, yet it still highlights the spark, so it plays to the theme of the class.
The basic idea of Ikon selection is that after exiting an Ikon via a Trans ability, you need to put the spark into something that'll provide value when you Trans out of your first choice.
The core design means that you will always be selecting "best of leftovers" to bounce the spark around. This is why the Ikons with most generally applicable Trans effects are so good, like Aegis's +1 defense buff, and even Sandal's 1A Dash.
As mentioned, Scar is great because it's a 1A Trans, so same A cost as Shift, and HP is combat's #1 win/loose condition.
Yes, you may be at max HP at times, but typically the only way for your PC to loose the fight is via HP, making it the 2nd most applicable number/ mechanic to affect.
The #1 most applicable is of course removing foe HP, via doing damage.
If you personally think you'd rather have an improved 1A Stride via Sandal's Dash, that's great, and you can pick that instead.
Overall, the nature of "pick best of what you're not using" core mechanic means that for a lot of PCs, they actually should consider wielding 2 different weapon Ikons, as this allows for continued offense.
It really does seem that a lot of the time, having 3 Ikons that will all be swapped between just is not a common outcome in the chaos of combat.
There are plenty of player stories where they mostly used a 2ndary Ikon like Aegis just to pong the spark back to the weapon ASAP, and their 3rd Ikon was left gathering dust.
In those "3rd Ikon mostly ignored" scenarios, the player would likely have had a better time if they instead designed their Exemplar around 2 weapon ikons, even if one was clearly a secondary attack, such as a shield spike, or a foot unarmed attack.
It does suck that the current Exemplar is so limited, that most of the time they just wish they could Trans the spark into their weapon. For that desire to be lessened, we need more Ikons with great Trans abilities that genuinely compete for the "obvious choice" of dealing damage to foes.
Damage is just the king of actions to such a large extent, that it takes a lot to compete.
IMO, the only Ikon effects that really do match it are those that can potentially save actions, because those actions translate to attacks. Sandals saving allies Strides, Bangles wasting foe actions to do more Strides, etc.
One step more indirectly, you get Ikons like Scar doing this by avoiding the need to Battle Medicine / Heal, etc.
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Dealing with the existing Exemplar as-is RaW, my #1 recommendation for those players who don't like the idea of picking 2 weapon Ikons, but don't think they are getting enough damage / don't like ~wasting off turns moving the spark back:
take a feat that'll add a damaging Trans ability to a non-weapon Ikon ASAP. Your only early option is going to be Steel on Steel at L4, which delays the chance to get Only the Worthy.
Being able to Trans out of a non-weapon Ikon while doing damage is a big deal from a mechanics PoV, though the damage is designed around being AoE, which does mean Steel will under perform for single-foe situations.
In general, really prioritize getting an extra Trans ability on the Ikons you think are not being used enough, and try not to fall to the temptation to add another Trans ability to the Ikon you think is performing well (your weapon Ikon).
Horn of Plenty is an example of an Ikon that super benefits from this. Being able to Immanence Drink --> Trans out with some feat ability like Steel or Fate is a very different benefit from adding another Ikon at L8, because you otherwise will be committing to the use of the base Ikon Trans ability any time you put the spark in there.
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For those with GMs that are super cool, there is actually a single homebrew line that can make a big difference to help this design snag/hurdle around players really wanting to attack most turns.
The L1 Twin Stars feat specifies that the 2 weapon splits share the spark simultaneously. If that text instead allows the Exemplar an A/B choice each time they use the "split" action, this becomes so much better.
By adding a line: "If you are an Exemplar, you can instead choose to treat each copy as it's own separate weapon ikon that does not share the spark."
you give the players who want to keep Striking a whole lot more room to breathe, and take off a ton of pressure from the existing incentive to pick 2 weapon Ikons.
("If you are an Exemplar" is needed to avoid Arch-Exemplars from being able to poach that, but is irrelevant in most homebrew contexts)
I'll explain my rationale with an example.
Imagine you go to a restaurant where you must choose three different dishes for them to prepare for you. After a short wait, the dishes arrive and you start eating. The food is great, but you’re already full by the time you reach the third dish, so you leave it untouched. You enjoy the place so much that you keep coming back at least once a week. However, every time you visit, the same thing happens: you can never finish the third dish because you’re always full by then. The restaurant has a policy of throwing away any leftovers, so each visit ends up costing them money since that uneaten dish is wasted every time you go.
With that said, I want to ask; why does the restaurant keep preparing three dishes for every customer if most people only end up eating two?
This is a bad analogy because the aspect that makes the three dishes bad is not an aspect of the three ikons. The third dish has a cost to prepare, so ignoring that dish wastes money. The third ikon has no cost, so ignoring it merely means you would rather use other ikons.
Let me change the analogy. Suppose I have three pots in my kitchen for cooking on my stove: a pan, a pot, and a steamer. I use the pan every day for frying eggs and cabbage for breakfast. I use the pot often for making soup and stew and mashed potatoes. I seldom use the steamer, because I use that only for steaming vegetables about once a month. Should I complain that I own a steamer?
In Pathfinder 2nd Edition, the spell Heal is used primarily for healing allies. But it can also damage undead opponents. I almost never use Heal to damage undead, because my weapon does that job just fine and I want to save my Heal spells for healing. Should I complain about the extra feature on Heal that harms undead?
I suppose someone could imagine that if the Exemplar lacked the third ikon, then the Exemplar could get a new feature to replace it. That would give the ikon an opportunity cost. But that is not how Pathfinder design works. Each class is designed for an exact degree of combat effectiveness by level. If the alternative feature would make the Exemplar more effective at combat than the standard, then the developers won't give the Exemplar that extra feature.
The steamer in my kitchen is there because I sometimes eat steamed vegetables. The harm-undead feature in the Heal spell is there because the heal font cleric has twin themes of preventing death and defeating undead monsters that represent death. This is about flavor of my meals or of a Pathfinder class, not about power.
The flavor of the exemplar is that they are empowered by a spark of the divine. The ikon represents that spark mechanically. Due to the power cap by level on all character classes, the ikon is limited in its power. Transcendence lets the exemplar exert a little more power in a carefully limited fashion to give the ikon more drama. Making transcendence more convenient would require putting a different limit on the effectiveness of transcendence, and that different limit might diminish the divine-spark theme of the exemplar class. Having a third ikon that is not used as often as the other two does not increase power, yet it still highlights the spark, so it plays to the theme of the class.
The third ikon has a cost, its power budget. I don't see exactly why you seem to think that if the exemplar lacked a third ikon that its power budget wouldn't be spent on either a new combat feature or buffing an already existing combat feature. Ikons are where most the budget of the class is located, and all ikons are designed to be used in combat, thus they are combat features. This isn't like taking away all the extra skill feats and skill increases from the rogue to double their sneak attack or something like that. If anything, it would be closer to what barbarians got in the remaster when they lost deny advantage in favor of furious footfalls.
I also feel its not honest compare the heal spell to Gaze Sharp as Steel when heal is one of the best spells in the game that just happens to have a less useful secondary use while Gaze Sharp as Steel was designed to be a backup option. I think it would be much more fair to compare the healspell with the victor's wreath ikon since the latter its mostly used for its immanence effect but it also happens to have a fantastic situational trascendence effect as well.
You said it yourself. The steamer in your kitchen is there because you sometimes want to eat steamed vegetables, but why would I choose Gaze Sharp as Steel for a reason other than flavor when I could choose two weapon ikons that do the same thing but better? You don't even need two weapons AFAIK since based on the exemplar's feats a single item can have multiple immanence and trascendence effects. This is why I think Gaze Sharp as Steel is bad, because its only use case is totally situational and even in those sitautions there's still other ikons that can do pretty much the same thing but way better.
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If you think the current class is fine then that's great, but I think we can agree you are in the minority here when most of the users in the thread seem to agree exemplars tend to rotate between the same two ikons most of the time.I mean, I think that that's a perfectly fine rotation and I'm not sure what's wrong with that? Sure, if the Exemplar had every ikon active all the time and could Transedence whenever (a bit of a simplification of your idea but still) and they were otherwise unchanged they would be stronger but I don't think they need to be stronger than they are currently... and also yeah, rogue is currently a bit too good because they QOLd every possible sticking point until they don't have a single moment they can't do their thing. A little bit if friction is good! The Exemplar already has a lot of flexibility built in, having to wait one turn isn't the end of the world, especially since the turn you're waiting isn't a dead turn by any standard.I'll explain my rationale with an example.
Imagine you go to a restaurant where you must choose three different dishes for them to prepare for you. After a short wait, the dishes arrive and you start eating. The food is great, but you’re already full by the time you reach the third dish, so you leave it untouched. You enjoy the place so much that you keep coming back at least once a week. However, every time you visit, the same thing happens: you can never finish the third dish because you’re always full by then. The restaurant has a policy of throwing away any leftovers, so each visit ends up costing them money since that uneaten dish is wasted every time you go.
With that said, I want to ask; why does the restaurant keep preparing three dishes for every customer if most people only end up eating two?
Umm,,,Why don't you take the uneated dish home and eat it later?