Running an AP that's kind of heavy on solo bosses and our party kineticist is not having a really great time. A lot of their AoEs end up being ineffectual against single target enemies, which has led to them spending lots of time blasting, but their blasts are kind of weak, to the point where her crits are often worse than the normal martials' regular strikes. Compounding the issue is some changes to the party's flanking strategies which make it really hard for her to place AoEs without pacifying, which hurts her action economy even more.
I don't want to dig too much into the specifics of the campaign because I'm interested in a broader discussion.
From your play experience, have kineticists felt okay against solo/very small group fights where you aren't likely to get groups in your AoEs?
Do you have any advice, homebrew, or play experience to make them feel more fun against bosses?
I realize one piece of advice would be to add more mooks or not use solos because solo bosses kind of suck in general, but we're running this AP mostly straight so I'm curious if anyone has any advice or input that doesn't involve redesigning encounters.
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I covered this in a thread a while back. Kineticist doesn't have good precise attacks with scaling damage and effects. It's a pretty weak single target class.
Paizo went crazy giving the kineticist AOE and forgot kineticists have to be able to engage single target bosses or fights where AOE is difficult to impossible to use.
Safe Elements doesn't allow use with Overflow Impulses, another area I think the designers did not test very well. The 1 action cannot be combined with 3 action overflow impulses which are often the hardest hitting impulses for kineticists.
I think Paizo needs to add good single target impulses to the kineticist. We'll see if they ever do it.
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Safe elements is the biggest thing to assist the Kineticist in these awkward circumstances.
Hopefully the Kinnie has some sort of utility/support impulse/gate junction to work with. Depending on the element, it could be area control (preventing the Boss from moving), healing, aura effects... or the crown jewel of tanking; Timber Sentinel.
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From your play experience, have kineticists felt okay against solo/very small group fights where you aren't likely to get groups in your AoEs?
At lowest levels, yes. Kineticists are pretty weak at single target in the lowest levels. The range is low and most impulses are basically a cantrip.
At last levels, specially after the level 18 they are pretty strong even against bosses.
That said I'm only pointing in terms of DPR. If we talk about more general terms like support, utility, and party protection, this is way different. Things like Timber Sentinel, Clear as Air, Cyclonic Ascent, Shattershields and some other non-damaging impulses are pretty brutal in many boss fights. Specially against non-caster enemies, strongly physical and melee focused. These enemies have several difficulties to deal with the tree/shields, invisibility or flight it will have difficulties to deal with the kineticist and its party group.
Do you have any advice, homebrew, or play experience to make them feel more fun against bosses?
Focus on non-damage impulses. Kineticists IMO shines way more with utility than damage.
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Another option would be Kinetic Activation
The ability to activate wands/scrolls/staves that have spells whose traits match your gate is strong on a single-gate kineticist and incredible on multi-gate ones.
It gives access to so many options both in and out of combat. As Yuri said, kineticists shine more with utility than damage, but there are spells that do both things for all six elemental traits.
Kineticists can do kinda average single target as fire or air/earth with the usual impulse+blast rotation and without worrying about friendly fire.
I'm guessing your player's isn't one of these. That's a design flaw in the class and also a player build flaw for not understanding this could happen.
I'm guessing it has to be an earth kineticist since the others have cones they can fire off point blank to avoid the FF issue. If not, could just be an early game issue since reflex is the most common high save early on.
As for feeling fun against bosses, sure. Triple dipping a desert wind boosted aerial boomerang feels great (deploy, end of turn save, recall) as is watching the local fighter flinging shove some poor guy through a gauntlet of berms or hazardous terrain to be shredded. Sure, there's also utility like granting invis or healing or uneven ground, but we all know that's not what most people are primarily here for.
Personally playing a wood/water/wind kineticist and am having a good time, but mostly because as a more support oriented character I always have something I can pivot to (I think timber sentinel should be nerfed so didn't take it, but I still have a lot of ways to contribute).
That being said, there are a few fights where I felt I was forced to pivot to do things I didn't really want to do. There was a boss fight where I wanted to do damage, but the boss had high reflex and evasion, so aside from a stray blast which did almost nothing I was mostly sitting that fight out. And there was nothing I could have taken, really, through three lists of impulses, that would have let me deal decent damage in that scenario.
I feel that all elements should be able to be built to do competitive damage, not just fire or desert wind builds, and have a variety of defenses they can target. Hopefully we will get more impulses down the line.
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I'm playing a fire/metal kineticist right now. Some ways I do damage.
1. Built up strength, picked up weapon infusion, usually do a thrown attack or melee attack in battle.
2. Fire aura damage.
3. Fire Snake which allows some precision with a 2 action impulse that uses a save.
Your blast is your 1 action activity and Weapon Infusion is almost required to make the blasts somewhat good.
Then combine with your most precise damage impulse that uses a save.
Then work in any passive damage capabilities you have from auras or impulses.
That's how kineticists do damage to single target creatures in my experience.
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Thanks for all the input, it's been helpful.
One thing I can't help but notice is a lot of the suggestions pertain to specific types of kineticists. It really sounds like you need to build into the right elements to diversify yourself. Like it seems definitely true that wood gets some cool utility and desert wind can enable you to do decent single target damage.
But it kind of feels like if you're playing into the wrong sort of elemental combo you're a little bit SoL. Like very little of this advice would apply to a geokineticist (though I guess you could grab sand snatcher and hope as a bossing thing).
Thinking as a mild bit of homebrew I might make the exclude allies portion of Safe Elements a passive effect, as one of the bigger pain points even against non-bosses is just how bad it feels to figure out what to do when there aren't a lot of targets and melee allies are swarming in. I realize spellcasters have a similar problem, but at least as a mage I can sometimes find another spell to cast.
Might also consider some changes to make Blasts feel a little more potent when forced to use them as a mainstay, though no specific ideas there yet.
Yeah I remember when kineticist came out, I wanted to make a pure earth kineticist. Picking out impulses I realized, sadly, that the damage it puts out was not very good, especially when tremor is not very reliable. The disparity between fire/desert winds should not be so big, I feel.
If you're considering homebrew, giving them Weapon Infusion for free might be worth considering. It's a low level feat that helps in a lot of situations. Especially if they have decent strength. D8 agile one handed is a pretty decent melee weapon. It gives you whatever combination of slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning your blast lacked. And then most of the other value is in extending the effective range of your blast and when you can add strength to damage. It won't make them into a barbarian or anything, but it lets them maintain a certain level of output more consistently. It is kinda like a bomber alchemist. Low white room damage, but good in corner cases.
Whenever I try to build a kineticist, I feel foolish skipping weapon infusikn. Which is a good case for making it a freebie.
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Whenever I try to build a kineticist, I feel foolish skipping weapon infusikn. Which is a good case for making it a freebie.
It's SO good. Literally the only time I'm using a blast that isn't weapon infused is the free 1A version when channeling element after an overflow and I don't need Thermal Nimbus.
Single element-Fire, btw.Having a blast with it, just hit level 10 (Though I played 1-8 mixed between a Thaumaturge and playtest Commander)
I agree with most of the comments:
1) Weapon Infusion is basically a must have. And Kinetic Activation is also something most kineticists will want (can use scrolls, staves, and spellhearts with the same trait as one of their elements).
2) Choice and progression of elements (via Gate's Threshold at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th) is definitely something that requires some thought and planning. As mentioned, each element has some gaps that give mono-element kineticists some areas where they are weak. It's really tempting to use the first Gate Threshold at 5th to Fork the Path, pick up a 1st or 4th level impulse in the new element and then take a composite impulse at 6th.
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Agreed that Weapon Infusion with Strength works really well. It gives a lot of flexibility for attacking, even with a single element. If you are doing this, build for the armor infusion that your element provides assuming there is one. If there isn’t, consider branching out to an element that provides that.
Single element is tricky as each element lacks something. Picking two elements that have different strengths allows you to adapt to the situation.
Also if they have too many AoEs, perhaps they should retrain one or two infusions from AoE damage to something else that would be effective against a single opponent.
I don’t know what AP you are running, but also consider changing around things slightly to put in a boss that is vulnerable to their element. Sounds like they have already had enough instances where they felt less useful, putting in someone where they are much more useful can make it feel better.
On my pure Wood Kineticist, Hail of Splinters was the single thing that allowed me to do serviceable damage on single targets. Ironic since it’s also such a great aoe option, but the easy bleed application was quite satisfying. I didn’t feel too behind in damage contribution, especially with a bit of luck on the bleed recovery checks.
It could be the AP I'm playing but it feels like most of the enemies I fight as wood don't bleed. Half of them don't could as living creatures either. Personally I feel that timber sentinel should be nerfed to once per ten minutes, and given a more competitive (and reliable, a good offensive option against more enemies) offensive option.
It could be the AP I'm playing but it feels like most of the enemies I fight as wood don't bleed. Half of them don't could as living creatures either. Personally I feel that timber sentinel should be nerfed to once per ten minutes, and given a more competitive (and reliable, a good offensive option against more enemies) offensive option.
Bad matchups happen, but for a solo Wood Kineticist, falling back on full support mode is technically a great place to be in.
My nerf to Timber Sentinel is to simply make its range be tied to your Kinetic Aura, like Fresh Produce. It would be limited to 10 ft until you invest into Aura Shaping. I think people would realize how much that free 30 ft is carrying the feat now that they'd have to stride more often for optimal placement.
If Wood gets a compensation adjustment for anything, it's to their Aura Junction. That junction makes me sad.