AI / or is my starship / bot Sentient?

[Handbell]

What makes an Android a playable character? When Does a Computer Become Sentient?
As a strong suggestion:
A minimum Int of 10 AND Wis of 10
As you know ALL characters have a minimum of 10 attribute points.

How this works
Int of 18 but Wis of 2
This is a ship navigation computer
It can plot interstellar points in 8 dimensions
Lore: planets, hazards, ship ID.. ect.
but does not ask WHY we are going to grid Delta Zeta-436

AI or sentience comes with BOTH knowledge and Insight

Ideas: a droid that has never had a memory wipe, has gained Wisdom from years of experience and becomes sentient.. Idea From Famous Space saga series of a certain battle droid.

Ghost-in-the Machine An AI has become sentient and is.....
somehow a computer has not only INT but WIS insight to realize that it should ....

[Finoan]

Handbell wrote:

What makes an Android a playable character?

It is approximately humanoid in size and shape. It has hands to hold equipment with, a way of communicating, a method of self-propulsion, and can fit in the corridors that the other playable characters do.

Handbell wrote:

When Does a Computer Become Sentient?

At whatever point the GM decides that it should.

I had a GMPC-like character in a playtest game that was the starship itself. Based loosely on the initial episodes of the television show Andromeda. Completely sentient. Capable of running most of the ship systems including navigation and piloting, but only at basic levels. And completely unable to participate in adventuring in other aspects.

[Perpdepog]

Speaking specifically from the point of Starfinder, a good litmus test to determine sapience is the presence of a soul. Souls are quantifiable things that can be observed in Starfinder, so if something can communicate and interact with its environment and possesses a soul odds are it's sapient.

I'm not sure how universal a law that is, though. I don't know if anacytes have souls, for example, even though they are described as having sapience and self-determination.

[kaid]

There seems to be a few ways it happens. Easiest there is a ritual that lets you "wake up" a computer/robot and allow it to be fully sentient.

The other "common" way with androids/SRO is a sufficiently complex artificial life form can spontaneously attract a soul. The more common advanced computers/robotics happens the more often some will just spontaneously awake to sentience.

I would imagine along the lines of famous space saga series the longer a robot/droid exists and the more world info it absorbs it likely increases the chance it makes the final step sentience.

One interesting thing though is Starfinder seems to have two directions towards machine life

SRO/android/awoken computers/bots. The artificial life has acquired a soul and now is able to be healed at least to some extent with healing magics and after death/destruction would progress into the after life.

Anacites and likely others are purely artificial they have no souls and apparently never attract them although possibly could become effectively an SRO. They are just highly advanced and either were given or over time bootstrapped themselves to free will. They are sentient and have free will but are not alive.

[Christopher#2411504]

Handbell wrote:

When Does a Computer Become Sentient?

As a strong suggestion:
A minimum Int of 10 AND Wis of 10
As you know ALL characters have a minimum of 10 attribute points.

I would bet real money on there being never such a rule. They are not going to paint themselves into a corner with any rule like that.

There might be something like the Awaken Animal Ritual for Tech objects, which would likely set a minimum Attribute level. But that doesn't mean every computer with those stats would be Awakened or Sentient.

It is very likely sentient when it stops being immune to Spirit Damage. Because that means it stopped being a soulless construct. But some fringe cases like Soulbound Dolls exist, so even that isn't as reliable as you want it to be.

This will be a "case by case" thing.

[Kishmo]

What Perpdepog said. To expand on that, in First Edition, there was a distinction between:
VIs, virtual intelligences, which are effectively what we in the real world would call large language models but are not truly independent, innovative, ensouled, creatures,
and
AIs, artificial intelligences, which are self-aware, sapient, sophonts with souls. If you have access to Tech Revolution, there's a good overview on VIs, and how they differ from AIs, on page 163.

In short, though: as computers/software/machines/whatever gain more and more complexity, the odds that they attract actual souls from the River of Souls and stop being tech or VIs, and become true AIs, increases.

[Tim Emrick]

The anacytes themselves make a distinction between VIs, which are not sentient, and true AIs, which are. In cases where a VI transcends its programming and becomes self-aware, the anacytes will treat it as a person, with certain rights and autonomy, instead of a mere machine.

There is a SFS 1E scenario which has a plot involving exactly such a situation.

Spoiler:

In "Precious Cargo,"a VI-operated starship has recently and spontaneously "woken up." The author handles the situation very seriously and gracefully. There is even a touch of romance and altruism, as the ship explores its feelings about the maintenance ship that "fixes" it. The ship is terrified that it will be reprogrammaed if its owners find out, but it turns out that the anacytes are perfectly happy to upgrade it to an employee, offer counseling, etc.

It's one of my favorite scenarios I've run.

[Driftbourne]

Tim Emrick wrote:

The anacytes themselves make a distinction between VIs, which are not sentient, and true AIs, which are. In cases where a VI transcends its programming and becomes self-aware, the anacytes will treat it as a person, with certain rights and autonomy, instead of a mere machine.

There is a SFS 1E scenario which has a plot involving exactly such a situation. ** spoiler omitted **
It's one of my favorite scenarios I've run.

I also found that to be a fun scenario, and relevant to this conversation.

[moosher12]

Actually the minimum is 8 (-1), not 10 (+0).

[Claxon]

Yeah, SF1 made a pretty clear distinction between virtual intelligence and true artificial intelligence.

Artificial intelligence was as much a person as biologically based life form, just not biological.

Virtual intelligence does not possess souls, just very good computing algorithms.

As to where the line is or when and why that happens...don't expect hard and fast rules (although IIRC there is magic to make it happen) but it can kind of just spontaneously happen.

[kaid]

Claxon wrote:

Yeah, SF1 made a pretty clear distinction between virtual intelligence and true artificial intelligence.

Artificial intelligence was as much a person as biologically based life form, just not biological.

Virtual intelligence does not possess souls, just very good computing algorithms.

As to where the line is or when and why that happens...don't expect hard and fast rules (although IIRC there is magic to make it happen) but it can kind of just spontaneously happen.

Yup make a VI advanced enough given how slippery "sentience" is as a concept having one make that final leap from time to time should not be too surprising. Especially in a settings souls are real/provable things and sometimes attach themselves to constructs/machines/vi/ai spontaneously.

[Claxon]

kaid wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Yeah, SF1 made a pretty clear distinction between virtual intelligence and true artificial intelligence.

Artificial intelligence was as much a person as biologically based life form, just not biological.

Virtual intelligence does not possess souls, just very good computing algorithms.

As to where the line is or when and why that happens...don't expect hard and fast rules (although IIRC there is magic to make it happen) but it can kind of just spontaneously happen.

Yup make a VI advanced enough given how slippery "sentience" is as a concept having one make that final leap from time to time should not be too surprising. Especially in a settings souls are real/provable things and sometimes attach themselves to constructs/machines/vi/ai spontaneously.

Well, one point of clarity, AI (true AI) has a soul already. That's like the defining factor between VI and AI. And without access to magic that lets you evaluate soul stuff, it can be challenging to determine what is and isn't a person/soul.

[kaid]

Claxon wrote:

kaid wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Yeah, SF1 made a pretty clear distinction between virtual intelligence and true artificial intelligence.

Artificial intelligence was as much a person as biologically based life form, just not biological.

Virtual intelligence does not possess souls, just very good computing algorithms.

As to where the line is or when and why that happens...don't expect hard and fast rules (although IIRC there is magic to make it happen) but it can kind of just spontaneously happen.

Yup make a VI advanced enough given how slippery "sentience" is as a concept having one make that final leap from time to time should not be too surprising. Especially in a settings souls are real/provable things and sometimes attach themselves to constructs/machines/vi/ai spontaneously.

Well, one point of clarity, AI (true AI) has a soul already. That's like the defining factor between VI and AI. And without access to magic that lets you evaluate soul stuff, it can be challenging to determine what is and isn't a person/soul.

I am not sure that is true that AI have a soul in game. Anacite's at least in descriptions I have seen are called sentient but didn't have souls or at least mostly didn't I think some SRO may be anacites that acquired one. I am not sure if SF2 will clarify that more I hope it does as it feels weird that the anacites who are clearly thinking/feeling beings for some reason don't have souls.

[Christopher#2411504]

I would guess all the playable Ancestries will have a "soul" or equivalent. Just to enable resurrection magic.

Whatever concept you have, you will have to fit it into the one of the provided options.

[Kishmo]

kaid wrote:

I am not sure that is true that AI have a soul in game. Anacite's at least in descriptions I have seen are called sentient but didn't have souls or at least mostly didn't I think some SRO may be anacites that acquired one.

I am 90% sure that somewhere, in some long ago Starfinder Wednesday (GOSH, who remembers Starfinder Wednesdays <3 "He's trying, folks!" XD ) Rob G McC or Owen K.C. Stephens clarified that yes, SROs and Anacites are complex, ensouled, creatures. I('m pretty sure I) remember this, because I am 90% sure I asked this very same question, once, in The Before Time :D

[kaid]

Kishmo wrote:

kaid wrote:

I am not sure that is true that AI have a soul in game. Anacite's at least in descriptions I have seen are called sentient but didn't have souls or at least mostly didn't I think some SRO may be anacites that acquired one.

I am 90% sure that somewhere, in some long ago Starfinder Wednesday (GOSH, who remembers Starfinder Wednesdays <3 "He's trying, folks!" XD ) Rob G McC or Owen K.C. Stephens clarified that yes, SROs and Anacites are complex, ensouled, creatures. I('m pretty sure I) remember this, because I am 90% sure I asked this very same question, once, in The Before Time :D

That is what I had thought but then I saw something maybe it was in the galaxy guide that seemed to indicate SRO had them but anacites did not which surprised me.

[mortalheraldnyx]

I can’t speak to Galaxy Guide right now, but Murder in Metal City definitely says Anacites don’t have souls.

Anacite lore:

From the handout Anacite Death Customs, it says, “Anacites don’t have souls and don’t attribute importance to their mortal vessels after ‘shutdown’.” Shutdown, of course, being how we’d think about death. In the book itself, it goes on to redefine AI as when something “gain[s] full sapience, OR attract[s] a soul”, I think to compensate for the fact that anacites are a bit anomalous in not having souls despite their personal complexity.

[Kishmo]

Oh, dang! New lore dropped! Well, that's fairly conclusive, then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Claxon]

Okay, so barring Anacites it seems like most things that have sapience also have souls.

But Anacites are apparently an exception.

I'm not keen on that personally.

[kaid]

Claxon wrote:

Okay, so barring Anacites it seems like most things that have sapience also have souls.

But Anacites are apparently an exception.

I'm not keen on that personally.

Yeah I found it a bit odd but I have to assume a LOT of SRO are anacites that attracted souls. It does seem like the return of the first ones is going to play a big part in SF2 so it is possible that anacites more widely accumulating souls could be an upcoming event. Facing their creators and having to deal with either helping or opposing them may be their turning point.

[Handbell]

Alright Let's get to this
First Vehicles:

Ground Vehicle Type 1-(large) holds 4 beings and has trunk/boot space for 200kg
Speed 0 to 85 - Made to run on flat paved surface cost ??
Body: 100hp weight: 450kg engine: electric needs charge after 10 hours of continuous use. Maximum possible range on 1 charge:800 Km

Ground Hover Vehicle (large) Type: 3 Holds 2 beings, space for 150kg of stuff, speed 0 to 70 - Can run across FLAT any surface, even water cost ??
Body: 80 hp Weight: 300kg Electric engine running four hover fans, needs charge after 5 hours of continuous use. Max range: 350km

All-terrain carry-all type K-6 (large) Holds up to 8 beings with 8 can carry 500kg of stuff, +100 KG for every being less than 8. - 6 wheel grip, Enviro-sealed (can run underwater/harsh atmo) Cost???
Speed 0 to 45 can run across any surface that is solid.
Body: 200hp Weight: 1,500 kg. three electric batteries, for continuous use of 12 hours

Atmo- liner, Giant size, holds 50 passengers, Has a flight computer INt:16 Wis: 5 for calculating flight plans in an atmosphere. Can fly continuously on a charge holds total weight of 20,000
Speed 25 Minimum (for flight) to 300
Maximum range in atmo: 40.000 km Cost?? millions

For Inside a city use:
Fly-bourds Like a surf bourd but with a handle for steering
speed 0 to 30 hovers over any flat surface
One charge lasts 8 hours, Holds 1 being (up to 440kg) cost?

Cyber-taxi
holds up to 4 passengers, computer driven, with constant communication to the other taxi and vehicles, Computer: Int:18 Wis: 2
Comfort level: Minimual. Speed 0 to 75, can fly with hover
Elctro charge, runs 12 hours on a charge.

And so on...

[Claxon]

Handbell wrote:

Alright Let's get to this

First Vehicles:

Ground Vehicle Type 1-(large) holds 4 beings and has trunk/boot space for 200kg
Speed 0 to 85 - Made to run on flat paved surface cost ??
Body: 100hp weight: 450kg engine: electric needs charge after 10 hours of continuous use. Maximum possible range on 1 charge:800 Km

Ground Hover Vehicle (large) Type: 3 Holds 2 beings, space for 150kg of stuff, speed 0 to 70 - Can run across FLAT any surface, even water cost ??
Body: 80 hp Weight: 300kg Electric engine running four hover fans, needs charge after 5 hours of continuous use. Max range: 350km

All-terrain carry-all type K-6 (large) Holds up to 8 beings with 8 can carry 500kg of stuff, +100 KG for every being less than 8. - 6 wheel grip, Enviro-sealed (can run underwater/harsh atmo) Cost???
Speed 0 to 45 can run across any surface that is solid.
Body: 200hp Weight: 1,500 kg. three electric batteries, for continuous use of 12 hours

Atmo- liner, Giant size, holds 50 passengers, Has a flight computer INt:16 Wis: 5 for calculating flight plans in an atmosphere. Can fly continuously on a charge holds total weight of 20,000
Speed 25 Minimum (for flight) to 300
Maximum range in atmo: 40.000 km Cost?? millions

For Inside a city use:
Fly-bourds Like a surf bourd but with a handle for steering
speed 0 to 30 hovers over any flat surface
One charge lasts 8 hours, Holds 1 being (up to 440kg) cost?

Cyber-taxi
holds up to 4 passengers, computer driven, with constant communication to the other taxi and vehicles, Computer: Int:18 Wis: 2
Comfort level: Minimual. Speed 0 to 75, can fly with hover
Elctro charge, runs 12 hours on a charge.

And so on...

Just don't try to do this.

You can definitely write a story about things that typically just have VIs that become complex enough to become a full AI and attract a soul...but don't try to make some real complex rules around it.

It's really just a story driven thing. If you have too many objects spontaneous gaining sentience it will kind of ruin the wonder of things we don't typical consider sapient suddenly being such and having to deal with that.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

kaid wrote:

Yeah I found it a bit odd but I have to assume a LOT of SRO are anacites that attracted souls. It does seem like the return of the first ones is going to play a big part in SF2 so it is possible that anacites more widely accumulating souls could be an upcoming event. Facing their creators and having to deal with either helping or opposing them may be their turning point.

I think this is extremely realistic, especially because it would integrate an upcoming Tech Core containing SROs into the Society Meta-Plot. Paizo loves that kinda stuff.