It needs more work and options, but nothing Paizo can't fix...
Adaptability for mutliple elements
You guys talk about AoEs, but those areas are often locked behind specific elements. If you have multiple elements, you "should" be able to mix and match, such as dealing Fire damage with Aerial Boomerang.Strike and Spell
As the big one, there should be a feat that treats blasts as Strikes and AoE Impulses as Spells.More elements
Void and Aether are missing from P1E. One more "element" I'd like them to add is Light, because there's no impulse replicating illusion-based spells and effects. That was also no talents in P1E.Feat expansions
Weapon Infusion could use advanced feats with more traits, while Versatile Blasts could use advanced feats with more damage types.
They may want to make blasts work with haste as well. They don't do enough damage where letting a blast work with haste would break anything. Just let them do a blast with a 3 action overflow impulse.
Okay, so great news actually--those discussions exist! Reddit loves that stuff (so long as you ignore the handful of people who will accuse you of badwrongfun for trying to minmax).I would not recommend the PF2e subreddit for talking optimization. The warning you placed in brackets is far closer to the norm than the exception. I browse the community there frequently and they treat most hardcore optimization talk with hostility, especially if it comes from a poster like Deriven, or any of the other regulars here who post like him.
If you took this very post and put it there, it will get downvoted to the point of being hidden almost instantly.
So no forum for optimization out there even on Reddit.
Optimization was more of a PF1/3E thing and MMORPGs. We didn't do it too much in early D&D other than trying to get ambidextrous and dual wielding for martials and taking the best spells for casters.
PF2 optimization is fairly narrowband. If someone doesn't bother to run the numbers, they never really notice their character isn't performing very well. I imagine most don't look across at the other players and notice the fighter is wrecking everything while their kineticist doing ok damage. My players definitely watch each other's numbers and straight up quit a class and never touch it again if the numbers are weak.
The boss fights are very important to them. Killing the boss is where the glory is to them. Mooks are fun enough to drop some AOE hammers on or crit farm low mook AC, but taking out the final boss or the big bad monster is where they want to shine. Some classes shine much brighter than others in those fights.
To wrap this up, I would love to see some single target tools for the kineticist that allow them to ramp damage or scale up debuffs to match other classes in single target fights.
PF2 has different types of fights. Kineticist already good enough in AOE fights. It could use some work in the single target fights against the big bosses so they aren't so far behind other classes. A few single target impulses to mix in with the AOE impulses would be a great addition. They have so many AOE impulses in nearly every element it's almost reached the point of overkill on the AOE for the kineticist given the number of actions per round and rounds in a fight. I'd rather cut back on some of the AOE for some more surgical impulses that fit the theme of an element.
I'll cut it there as that covers what I wanted to push for.
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I would not recommend the PF2e subreddit for talking optimization. The warning you placed in brackets is far closer to the norm than the exception. I browse the community there frequently and they treat most hardcore optimization talk with hostility, especially if it comes from a poster like Deriven, or any of the other regulars here who post like him.
If you took this very post and put it there, it will get downvoted to the point of being hidden almost instantly.
Out of curiosity, which threads have had that happen lately? I browse the subreddit there regularly and my impression has always been that there's a place for optimization-based theorycrafting there, same as here. Just today, you had someone discuss the merits of a niche Gunslinger feat, and the comment section is full of diverse takes and people dissecting that feat in great detail.
They may want to make blasts work with haste as well. They don't do enough damage where letting a blast work with haste would break anything. Just let them do a blast with a 3 action overflow impulse.
They... already kinda did.
Kinetic Pinnacle is "Haste for Kineticists", with the extra action to Channel Elements, 1-action Blast and 1-action Stance Impulse.The major reason why everyone wants Blasts to be Strikes or Spells is mostly due to archetyping.
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I mean, a 20th level feat isn't a solution to the lack of haste for kineticist when the spell itself is readily available for most parties at 5th level. Besides that, I agree that the problem isn't haste itself but rather the lack of interaction with the rest of the system.
I'm also wondering if I'm misremembering or not but I do recall Paizo saying that the commander was going to have support for both casters and kineticist on release. We now know it does for casters, but it doesn't for kineticist. Assuming this wasn't a Mandela Effect on my part, could this mean that Paizo is probably thinking of reworking the kineticist? Or they just forgot I guess.
obviously kineticist have low damage
they couldn't get decent damage per turn without playing with hazardous terrain or fall damage
even fire can only get 5d8 plus 15d6 per turn at level 20
with 20 from aura weakness 15 from fire junction
that is hardly impressive
You're selling him a bit short.
At level 20, fire can get:- 20 from thermal nimbus + aura weakness in a friendly 30-feet emanation
- 6d6 + 5 (STR) + 10 (weakness) on a target 20 feet away as a free action (with furnace form that lasts 1 minute now)
- 15d8 (not d6, because you have fire junction) + 10 (weakness)
- Another free action thanks to kinetic pinnacle to get back your gate and your aura, so you can do the same the whole fight if you want.
So that's 15d8+10 with a reflex save (av 76,5), + 20 automatic damage to your opponents, + 6d6+15 at full MAP (av 36).
In comparison, a caster using falling stars deals 14d6+6d10, so average 82. If he's a sorcerer, he can add 9 to that for an average of 91. Still less than the kineticist.
He *could* use a 10th level slot, dealing 1d10+2d6 more, for a grand total of 103,5 but that's only once per day, maybe twice if he took the right feat. Then he's maybe on par with the kineticist (and that's not even a given since the 20 damage don't depend on a save) except on one target that gets
So how exactly does the kineticist in your example have low damage ? What are you comparing him with ?
Edit: To be clear, you could deal more damage with a sorcerer, but it requires planning and positioning. Archetyping into Oracle for Foretell harm would give you more damage, but then so can the kineticist if he's as serious about dealing damage as fire is. Using explosion of power would put him ahead by a fair margin but it requires some setup and isn't a given.
You could also argue that some DMs might not allow Furnace Form at the start of the fight, in which case you lose... 1d6 damage.
Even more with 1 round of setup with Ignite the Sun (another die on all impulses and an extra 7d6 (+weakness) per turn with a free action Sustain per turn.
Yeah, I didn't want to go into setup because the sorcerer could use effortless concentration on a sustain as well. But you're right that with weakness and +1d6 on all impulses (and for your friends as well), it's pretty amazing ^^
stuff
That's a little unfair no? A 3 action routine vs the caster's 2 action spell. What is the routine here actually? Kinetic pinnacle stance, ASEiF, weapon infusion thrown blast? Not sure where you're getting the extra free action from since you mention pinnacle after all that. Also needs to get into that 20ft range somehow and we can't free sustain fiery body for free movement at 16+.
But surely we must at least consider the value add of the caster's third action, even if it's just something like a bow strike or a rank 7 single action magic missile instead of something more nebulous like true target or one for all.
stuffThat's a little unfair no? A 3 action routine vs the caster's 2 action spell. What is the routine here actually? Kinetic pinnacle stance, ASEiF, weapon infusion thrown blast? Not sure where you're getting the extra free action from since you mention pinnacle after all that. Also needs to get into that 20ft range somehow and we can't free sustain fiery body for free movement at 16+.
But surely we must at least consider the value add of the caster's third action, even if it's just something like a bow strike or a rank 7 single action magic missile instead of something more nebulous like true target or one for all.
I swear I did write that elemental sorcerer could use elemental toss for an extra 9d8 damage on one target, but I guess I copy/pasted wrong when I posted, sorry about that. I agree with you that a third action is worthwile, but if we're talking raw damage like here, apart from elemental toss, there are few meaningful third actions. 7th level single action magic missile is 4d4+4 for 14 damage on a single target, so it doesn't bridge the gap.
If we're talking about utility, I think it's a given that any full spellcaster has much more utility (or at least more options) than a kineticist.
As for the routine, kineticist at level 19 get Final Gate.
If your kinetic aura is inactive, you automatically use the first action of your turn to Channel Elements as a free action. You can deliberately suppress the effect. If you're unable to act, final gate still functions, but you don't get to use the Elemental Blast or stance impulse you normally do from using Channel Elements.
So if your aura is inactive and you're able to act:
Free activation + blast
3 action All shall end in flames
Free quickened activation + aura
I swear I did write that elemental sorcerer could use elemental toss for an extra 9d8 damage on one target, but I guess I copy/pasted wrong when I posted, sorry about that. I agree with you that a third action is worthwile, but if we're talking raw damage like here, apart from elemental toss, there are few meaningful third actions. 7th level single action magic missile is 4d4+4 for 14 damage on a single target, so it doesn't bridge the gap.
If we're talking about utility, I think it's a given that any full spellcaster has much more utility (or at least more options) than a kineticist.
As for the routine, kineticist at level 19 get Final Gate.
If your kinetic aura is inactive, you automatically use the first action of your turn to Channel Elements as a free action. You can deliberately suppress the effect. If you're unable to act, final gate still functions, but you don't get to use the Elemental Blast or stance impulse you normally do from using Channel Elements.So if your aura is inactive and you're able to act:
Free activation + blast
3 action All shall end in flames
Free quickened activation + aura
Yeah, I know it's not much as far as raw damage goes. If I could better convey tone over text you'd know I was kind of dismissive of it. And thanks for pointing out final gate, clearly slipped my mind.
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Last night I destroyed a group of giants assaulting our keep from hundreds of feet away with a caster while invisible. Casters at high level can use things like chain lightning and howling blast often enough that it feels at will.
After I was done with that, I translocated to the other martials a half-mile away with a 5th level translocate, then Anoint Ally the Swashbuckler, then blasted the giants they were fighting and blew them up with Explosion of Power.
Kineticist cannot touch a high level caster's capabilities.
So if I have to compare them, I guess maybe an archer or something with short-range, unlimited, fairly weak AOE with additional layered damage like Thermal Nimbus.
So a somewhere in the middle class for damage and combat with very cool imagery. One thing the kineticist does have which is why I keep playing them is they look really, really cool.
I can see their damage is not great and I wish Paizo had made it higher. But I cannot argue the kineticist and their abilities make for some amazing mental imagery.
I can't make the Ghost Rider with any other class. I made a skeleton with fire and metal elements. He looks awesome. No cool bike to ride, but the flaming skeleton able to form metal and fire into weapons looks great. It's fun to play.
I sure wish it hit harder or had better riders to its effects at higher level. The scaling on the kineticist seems weak, like they picked a scaling that wasn't going to make them up to par with what higher level characters are doing. Kineticist isn't too bad at lower levels, but once the casters and martials start doing the whacky crazy stuff, they start feeling weak.
Casters get real crazy at high level.
But so can certain martials like rogues, fighters, and barbs.
I guess since I play the high level game so often, I see this scaling weakness in certain classes often. The core classes are the best scaled classes from 1 to 20. Most of the classes they made after core scale less effectively with the magus and remaster oracle being some of the better scaling classes.
I think most of the non-core classes that haven't been remastered well like the kineticist and psychic could use some scale up remastering for the higher levels along with the kineticist using some single target tools.
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I guess since I play the high level game so often, I see this scaling weakness in certain classes often. The core classes are the best scaled classes from 1 to 20.
I think its a combination of the high level game and the high optimization game.
While PF2 has done a MUCH MUCH MUCH better job than other versions of D&D in balancing classes across all levels it is still the case that differences in optimization become more apparent at higher levels.
So for your games I think it IS true that
1) Some classes and builds significantly underperform
2) Your group notices and is bothered by that underperformance more than many groups would be.
Your appraisal of the Kineticist, for your games, seems pretty much spot on to me.
Its unfortunate but unlikely to really get addressed much. You're a bit too much of an outlier for Paizo to spend a lot of attention on.
I think most of the non-core classes that haven't been remastered well like the kineticist and psychic could use some scale up remastering for the higher levels along with the kineticist using some single target tools.
I think the psychic does very well at high levels as long as they get to refocus a lot. Your games don't allow that which just destroys high level psychics. I know I was doing just fine with my psychic at L19-20 even when we had 2 encounters back to back. Wouldn't have been able to handle 3 or more though.
I remain convinced that the biggest single target DPR contribution a kineticist can make is casting Four Winds - it's a haste that stacks with haste!
... Admittedly as a 1st level impulse with no save/attack, it's far more poachable via the archetype, which only requires +2 Con. As is Timber Sentinel. Put it on, say, a witch or bard who wants to spam 1 action cantrips and you can go to town from there.
... damn, now I've talked myself around. A Faith's Flamekeeper Witch that multiclasses into Air Kineticist can deliver a flurry ranger/DS fighter/monk straight into the enemy while giving them a hefty per-attack bonus. And move the bard that's going to Dirge of Doom and cast Heroism as well.
Movement once engaged isn't too important.
Movement period isn't too important unless dealing with ranged combatants. Your blasters should be able to handle them.
The way we play, we often make the opponent move to use. It's much, much wiser to let the opponent spend move actions to engage while you spend offensive actions against them or delay until they reach you to spend offensive actions against their move actions.
I try to teach this to players, but most players like to engage quickly. It's not the best play.
The better play for group set ups is to let your ranged hitters pull the monsters to you while you set the melees in front preparing defensive actions if they have them or preparing for offense if they don't.
If the opponent spends move actions to open a battle, they are already at an action disadvantage once you engage. If you are ready to unleash offense on them, they are at a hit disadvantage as soon as combat engages.
From having played at tables when younger, I know most players like to start rushing the enemy. But it sets up the action advantage to the opponent if you have to spend move actions to engage while giving the opponent an action advantage to use offensive actions.
So we're not super keen on an ability that moves us into offense range while the opponent still has all their actions to use for offense even if it keeps us with all our offensive actions. We like the exchange of the opponent using move actions versus our offense actions.
I highly recommend any groups that don't do this try this tactic. I think you will find gaining that action advantage early will increase your easy win percentage.
Action advantage is the surest way to win in PF2.
Iunno about you, but I find that a lot of combat tends to start within one move action (and certain abilities, like Battle Cry, don't function if this doesn't happen) and so the ability to pick the engagement on your terms is often worth losing one action.
There's, hmm, the last book of Extinction Curse where that wasn't true, but in those cases the monsters had some pretty nasty range and/or move options, especially if you don't shove a Reactive Strike martial in their face first. Did you know all high level demons premaster can teleport 100ft? I don't think either the gunslinger nor the cleric liked having a marlith dropped into their face with 6 Reactive Strikes. Now of course if everyone is spending their action to move that's complicated, but if one person spends two action to do it, now you're talking.
If a demon uses translocate to get you, that is still 2 actions to move to you. Which is much better than them spending two actions to attack you.
No strategy is absolute. So if they have more powerful ranged abilities than your group, then you have to move to them fast and adapt
I tend to control engagement distance. I don't let DMs put tokens on a map and tell me roll initiative. I always recommend players dictate the battlefield and inform the DM they are scouting slowly to the door, forming up before the door is opened, then pop the door once they are ready for the engagement or however it will set up.
Every table I've ever been at, I will take command of the group and I will ensure tactical play. It has annoyed some in the past, but most players once they see how well it works follow the lead if they are not already doing it.
In outside adventures, we really use distance and long range nukes to hammer groups. Sometimes destroy them before they can even get to us.
Main thing this requires is martials that don't mind spending their turns waiting. Our group has used these tactics so effectively over the years, we don't mind waiting for the battle to set up to our advantage.
We do have five. We always have two martials, two casters, and at least one ranged martial or gish. I know every group is not built like that.
A lot of our casters also take Rogue archetype and mobility so if that if that pesky marilith translocates on top of them, they mobility away from them before casting to avoid reactions.
Since the marilith has spend two actions to translocate and can't use a full attack to hammer the caster, then the martials move to engage bringing the hammer usually with an action advantage.
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My SoT group is a somewhat low-DPR group. They've got a Reflective Ripple Monk, a Cloistered Cleric, a ranged Investigator Medic, and a Fire/Wood Kineticist. The Kineticist's damage feels fine in that group, and they're bringing a lot of other stuff to the table (protector trees, life stealing vines, creative use of basic kinesis, etc). Thermal Nimbus is also doing work since stuff stays up longer in this group so it applies multiple times (and really adds up in big group fights).
I suspect it would feel worse if they had a high-DPR character in the party, but it's fine in this one. The total package is really focused on being able to do a variety of things and it does that pretty well.
But it's not going to keep up single target with a strong martial, and it has that in common with the casters for the most part.
kineticist stance break with any overflow action
so each turn they can use all shall end in flame and 1 elemental blast
Yes.
5d8 plus 15d6 per turn at level 20
It's actually the other way around, 5d6 + 15d8. That's a big difference since your numbers averaged 75 while the real average is 85.
with 20 from aura weakness 15 from fire junction
I don't understand your numbers at all.
It's 10 from aura weakness, 10 from fire junction (so 20).Then 10 from aura weakness for all fire damage you dealt (so another 10 for the blast and another 10 for "all shall end in flames").
You also forgot STR to damage through weapon infusion, that's another 5 damage at least.
I already did the maths a few posts earlier but it seems you forgot to read it so here it is again.
At level 20, fire can get:
- 20 from thermal nimbus + aura weakness in a friendly 30-feet emanation
- 6d6 + 5 (STR) + 10 (weakness) on a target 20 feet away as a free action (with furnace form that lasts 1 minute now)
- 15d8 (not d6, because you have fire junction) + 10 (weakness)
- Another free action thanks to kinetic pinnacle to get back your gate and your aura, so you can do the same the whole fight if you want.So that's 15d8+10 with a reflex save (av 76,5), + 20 automatic damage to your opponents, + 6d6+15 at full MAP (av 36).
So 96,5 AOE damage and 132,5 on a specific target.
while elemental sorcerer with focus spell and blood magic
is 10d8 plus 18d6 plus 20
Actually, that's 18d6+10 AOE, 10d8 + 10 single target.
So 83 AOE damage and 138 on a specific target.That's less AOE damage and barely more single target damage, while using a high level slot and a focus point.
without accounting things like reflect harm explosion of power hag blood magic and level 20 free action metamagic feat
Reflect harm and explosion of power are blood magic effects, just like the basic elemental one you used in your maths. So you cannot do all three - you might do two of them if you took blood sovereignty but now you took some damage as well.
But you know, I happen to agree with you. I'm the biggest fan of sorcerers and I believe they're probably the strongest class currently in PF2E. So a well-built sorcerer can outdps a kineticist using his top level slots and focus points, and thank god for that, else it'd be totally unbalanced.
But, see, once you get your maths right, the fire sorcerer isn't far behind, despite what you might think.
At 20 a fire kineticist with ignite the sun, kinetic pinnacle, effortless impulse, thermal nimbus, furnace form, aura junction and impulse junction, flying flame, and weapon infusion can do a bananas amount of damage. There's a bit of setup there for sure, but assuming you can prebuff with furnace form (which I don't think is too big of an ask), turn one thermal nimbus, ignite the sun, two blasts, then next turn free concentrate on sun, flying flame, two blasts, it's a lot of damage for using no real resources. Maybe if more of that came in at earlier levels it would help with the damage curve, but adding much more damage to that might be a little much.
Personally I think other elements could use a buff. Fire out damages them by a lot, especially at 20. Maybe earth could benefit from desert winds (for single gate earth kineticists), for a start, even though with no non overflow damage impulses it wouldn't be that big of a boon (roiling mudslide doesn't count cause the damage is poopy, more of a crowd control impulse)
The way we play, we often make the opponent move to use. It's much, much wiser to let the opponent spend move actions to engage while you spend offensive actions against them or delay until they reach you to spend offensive actions against their move actions.Why are you GMing your enemies that way? Why aren't they using the same logic and plinking at the party with fireballs while forcing the party's melee fighters to come to them? Why aren't they observing the party, then moving out of sight to come ambush them from behind? For that matter, depending on the campaign, why aren't they just retreating out of range? The only enemies rushing forward should be the ones who have an in-game reason to actively want to kill the PCs and which don't have an obviously better way to get at them. But in most/many cases of APs, it is the Party which is motivated to go after the monster. The monster often could care less about the party and will only react if they view the party as a threat (or a snack).
Do your road bandits wave at the carriage from 200' feet away? Hopefully not. The classic bandit encounter is that the carriage isn't aware it's under threat until their archers are in place, hidden, and the lead bandit steps out of the woods 10' from the carriage. While that's just one specific case, pretty much most foes should be behaving in an analogously tactical manner.
Now it's perfectly fine to use PF2E more like a miniatures battle game, where you just assume that at the initiative roll the two sides are set up and motivated to fight. But if you do that, it doesn't make sense to start one team in it's combat range while out of the other's combat range. If you do that, it's not wonder your PC's clean the clocks of hard encounters - you've skewed the starting battlefield conditions to give them a major advantage that no miniatures tactical combat game would give.
I already stated if the enemies have a tactical advantage at range, adapt.
Why do you think most enemy groups have more capabilities than the PCs? Do you make every single enemy group in the game superior to your PCs at every tactical option?
PC parties are tactically superior to the majority of what they face. If you make every single enemy able to counter what they do, then what are you doing as a GM? Making your PCs choices pointless?
I have already stated multiple times that in major fights, the enemies are made to counter the PCs and force a challenging fight.
But in most fights wandering around, the PCs maintain a tactical advantage because they are PCs with a far more diverse skill and ability advantage. You should know this. You really should. Most enemy groups have nowhere near the tactical diversity of a group of PCs, especially high level PCs.
At 20 a fire kineticist with ignite the sun, kinetic pinnacle, effortless impulse, thermal nimbus, furnace form, aura junction and impulse junction, flying flame, and weapon infusion can do a bananas amount of damage. There's a bit of setup there for sure, but assuming you can prebuff with furnace form (which I don't think is too big of an ask), turn one thermal nimbus, ignite the sun, two blasts, then next turn free concentrate on sun, flying flame, two blasts, it's a lot of damage for using no real resources. Maybe if more of that came in at earlier levels it would help with the damage curve, but adding much more damage to that might be a little much.
Personally I think other elements could use a buff. Fire out damages them by a lot, especially at 20. Maybe earth could benefit from desert winds (for single gate earth kineticists), for a start, even though with no non overflow damage impulses it wouldn't be that big of a boon (roiling mudslide doesn't count cause the damage is poopy, more of a crowd control impulse)
Why do you list this stuff like the other PCs in the group are standing around waiting for the fire kineticist to do this?
You have to and I mean have to look at this in comparison to what other party members are doing. It doesn't matter if the fire kineticist can get this great thing going when the monsters are already dead because the other PCs are doing similar amounts of damage far faster with less set up.
And yeah, the part about other elements I agree with. Fire is the best at damage with layered damage. Even they are not fast enough with the set up to get going like a caster or martial and the other elements are even worse.
We're focused on fire, but fire is the only element that is even close to competitive for damage. Every other element is far worse.
Y-yeah, I can see how if the players are always able to dictate an engagement then some classes just Don't Work - PF2e does try to accomodate all kinds of playstyles but it's very clear that the 'default' engagement distance for which all classes are expected to perform is around 30ft frontline to frontline - the APs back this up.
Basically I don't think they can address the 'weak' classes because you kind of threw out exploration mode, focus points and initiative and so you're running, like, half of PF2e. Kineticists do have issues but 'does not function for games played in initiatve mode for 100 rounds over a battlemap 300ft across where enemies only enter initiative when engaged' isn't really addressable.
I've never been able to play this way. I can't do it. I have to play the game the way I know good small unit tactics work.
Good combat teams have a scout point man, use small unit tactics, use terrain advantages, bottleneck the enemy so they can bring less force against you and put your primary force in front. Hammer from range to soften enemies. Obtain every tactical advantage including an action advantage. Don't ever give the enemy a tactical advantage if they can't take it. Prevent flanking as often as possible. Adapt as needed.
This is the way I have to play. I have OCD when it comes to this type of play.
At 20 a fire kineticist with ignite the sun, kinetic pinnacle, effortless impulse, thermal nimbus, furnace form, aura junction and impulse junction, flying flame, and weapon infusion can do a bananas amount of damage. There's a bit of setup there for sure, but assuming you can prebuff with furnace form (which I don't think is too big of an ask), turn one thermal nimbus, ignite the sun, two blasts, then next turn free concentrate on sun, flying flame, two blasts, it's a lot of damage for using no real resources. Maybe if more of that came in at earlier levels it would help with the damage curve, but adding much more damage to that might be a little much.
Personally I think other elements could use a buff. Fire out damages them by a lot, especially at 20. Maybe earth could benefit from desert winds (for single gate earth kineticists), for a start, even though with no non overflow damage impulses it wouldn't be that big of a boon (roiling mudslide doesn't count cause the damage is poopy, more of a crowd control impulse)
Why do you list this stuff like the other PCs in the group are standing around waiting for the fire kineticist to do this?
You have to and I mean have to look at this in comparison to what other party members are doing. It doesn't matter if the fire kineticist can get this great thing going when the monsters are already dead because the other PCs are doing similar amounts of damage far faster with less set up.
And yeah, the part about other elements I agree with. Fire is the best at damage with layered damage. Even they are not fast enough with the set up to get going like a caster or martial and the other elements are even worse.
We're focused on fire, but fire is the only element that is even close to competitive for damage. Every other element is far worse.
I don't think it's very fair to say that a turn of set up is too much to ask for. Especially when the first turn isn't a wasted one - thermal nimbus is free because of final gate, ignite the sun does 7d8, and you can get in a blast or two depending on how far you have to move (you said yourself in your Games typically enemies come to you I think?). So even on that 'wasted' turn you're doing 20(thermal nimbus)+41.5(avg ignite the sun with weakness)+(39.5 X2)(two blasts boosted by ignite the sun, furnace form and weakness)= an average of 140.5. Thats assuming you don't have to get within 30ft, but even if you have to move it's still 100dmg on your setup turn. I think, especially with your style of play of scouting and such, you could have furnace form activated pre combat (honestly maybe even ignite the sun too).
I don't think it's very fair to say that a turn of set up is too much to ask for. Especially when the first turn isn't a wasted one - thermal nimbus is free...At 20 a fire kineticist with ignite the sun, kinetic pinnacle, effortless impulse, thermal nimbus, furnace form, aura junction and impulse junction, flying flame, and weapon infusion can do a bananas amount of damage. There's a bit of setup there for sure, but assuming you can prebuff with furnace form (which I don't think is too big of an ask), turn one thermal nimbus, ignite the sun, two blasts, then next turn free concentrate on sun, flying flame, two blasts, it's a lot of damage for using no real resources. Maybe if more of that came in at earlier levels it would help with the damage curve, but adding much more damage to that might be a little much.
Personally I think other elements could use a buff. Fire out damages them by a lot, especially at 20. Maybe earth could benefit from desert winds (for single gate earth kineticists), for a start, even though with no non overflow damage impulses it wouldn't be that big of a boon (roiling mudslide doesn't count cause the damage is poopy, more of a crowd control impulse)
Why do you list this stuff like the other PCs in the group are standing around waiting for the fire kineticist to do this?
You have to and I mean have to look at this in comparison to what other party members are doing. It doesn't matter if the fire kineticist can get this great thing going when the monsters are already dead because the other PCs are doing similar amounts of damage far faster with less set up.
And yeah, the part about other elements I agree with. Fire is the best at damage with layered damage. Even they are not fast enough with the set up to get going like a caster or martial and the other elements are even worse.
We're focused on fire, but fire is the only element that is even close to competitive for damage. Every other element is far worse.
Furnace Form can be pre-activated. Final gate with Thermal Nimbus. Then Ignite the sun round one?
Wouldn't ignite the sun create a danger for the other PCs entering the battle? Or would you use Safe Elements with it? 7d8 damage the first round is ok.
At that level you're unleashing Eclipse Burst with a sustained Phantom Orchestra as a caster pretty easily. Then a one action weapon shot.
Or rushing into battle and hammer blowing the enemy pretty quick. Though martials at high level are sort of boring compared to casters even though they do good damage.
...I don't think it's very fair to say that a turn of set up is too much to ask for. Especially when the first turn isn't a wasted oneAt 20 a fire kineticist with ignite the sun, kinetic pinnacle, effortless impulse, thermal nimbus, furnace form, aura junction and impulse junction, flying flame, and weapon infusion can do a bananas amount of damage. There's a bit of setup there for sure, but assuming you can prebuff with furnace form (which I don't think is too big of an ask), turn one thermal nimbus, ignite the sun, two blasts, then next turn free concentrate on sun, flying flame, two blasts, it's a lot of damage for using no real resources. Maybe if more of that came in at earlier levels it would help with the damage curve, but adding much more damage to that might be a little much.
Personally I think other elements could use a buff. Fire out damages them by a lot, especially at 20. Maybe earth could benefit from desert winds (for single gate earth kineticists), for a start, even though with no non overflow damage impulses it wouldn't be that big of a boon (roiling mudslide doesn't count cause the damage is poopy, more of a crowd control impulse)
Why do you list this stuff like the other PCs in the group are standing around waiting for the fire kineticist to do this?
You have to and I mean have to look at this in comparison to what other party members are doing. It doesn't matter if the fire kineticist can get this great thing going when the monsters are already dead because the other PCs are doing similar amounts of damage far faster with less set up.
And yeah, the part about other elements I agree with. Fire is the best at damage with layered damage. Even they are not fast enough with the set up to get going like a caster or martial and the other elements are even worse.
We're focused on fire, but fire is the only element that is even close to competitive for damage. Every other element is far worse.
Eclipse burst + phantom orchestra is 128.5 damage on average, and took a turn to set up. The single strike, idk how much damage that would do, some variation there, but a casters to hit with strikes isn't that great (elemental blast at level 20 has a higher hit chance than most martials by one as you know). As for the ignite the sun damaging allies, yeah it would do a bit of damage, but remember they all get an extra d6 of fire damage to their attacks and they have +20 fire resistance from thermal nimbus and no fire weakness. So they might take ten damage, but the enemy will take a lot more.
Why do you think most enemy groups have more capabilities than the PCs? Do you make every single enemy group in the game superior to your PCs at every tactical option?PC parties are tactically superior to the majority of what they face. If you make every single enemy able to counter what they do, then what are you doing as a GM? Making your PCs choices pointless?
I have already stated multiple times that in major fights, the enemies are made to counter the PCs and force a challenging fight.
But in most fights wandering around, the PCs maintain a tactical advantage because they are PCs with a far more diverse skill and ability advantage. You should know this. You really should. Most enemy groups have nowhere near the tactical diversity of a group of PCs, especially high level PCs.
I think it's better to say that NPCs have their non-combat options left 'to the author' and you're the kind of GM who interprets this as 'they don't have it' which isn't a universal statement. A Severe encounter can consist of three monsters at the same level as the PCs (and since you're talking about 5 players, one that's level-1), why assume they don't have 3/4th of the tactical diversity of PCs?
I mean the answer is that you have OCD about making rewarding a specific mode of play and so if the players find a good tactical spot you make the enemies come towards them instead of baiting an encounter then running away once they see buffs have been cast until the heroism runs out. Which means your group will never be able to make use of classes like the kineticists designed around 'but what if it's the fifth encounter of the day and the sorcerer spent all their top rank and -1 slots?'
No, this isn't true. I don't know why you keep stating this. Fights are different. The majority of fights are not going to be highly sophisticated. They will be easy fights.
It's like you keep attempting to claim that every fight will be some convoluted, carefully built fight to challenge the PCs. It won't be. Module designers and most DMs don't design this way.
The author is the game designers. They make plenty of monsters that in no way have the tactical capabilities of a party.
I'm not rewarding anything. This stuff works whether in a game or the real world. PCs have superior tactical capability in the vast majority of fights.
This should be understood.
I have also stated multiple times in other threads that in big boss fights, I change spell lists and adjust tactics to challenge parties.
Then what happens, some poster like you comes along making some other ridiculous claim about how I play or what play-style I reward rather than I just use what the game designers provide changing it to challenge according to tactical capabilities.
I don't do that every fight. The vast majority of fights are not going to be challenging to well prepared, optimized PCs.
So please stop moving the goalposts because you want to play a game where you start within 30 feet of an enemy with no thought put into how to create an advantage. It's you wanting to play a bog standard easy game where stuff is put in front of you in range of your abilities.
Whereas I want a game with tactical thought. I design encounters with tactical thought put in which you seem to want to keep claiming "Oh you're rewarding a play style and letting the enemies just die."
When what I'm saying is I use the monsters in the bestiaries, the vast majority not capable of challenging PCs. They have fewer tactics and fewer capabilities. Healing along provides PCs a huge advantage most monsters can't challenge unless you want to put a healer in every encounter.
So please stop pretending every encounter has to be built to challenge the party every time. It doesn't. In fact the vast majority should be easily defeated for a party and even easier for an optimized party.
Then you will create a few encounters where you want to challenge and push the PCs to a hard fight. If you're not using good tactics and you run into a DM like me, you will find I use the same tactics I use as a player on the PCs as a DM. If you can't handle optimal tactics used against you and you're expecting to have tokens placed down within 30 feet, then I guess it's a TPK. I don't play the 30 foot game with intelligent PCs either.
I explained this too you but you want to keep talking like bandits and standard monsters have the same tactical level of complexity as PCs. They don't.
Encounters that are meant to challenge the PCs are built to do so. But they are rare encounters so the PCs feel like heroes and get to feel the intelligent tactical choices they make have an impact in the majority of fights.
...I don't think it's very fair to say that a turn of set up is too much to ask for. EspeciallyAt 20 a fire kineticist with ignite the sun, kinetic pinnacle, effortless impulse, thermal nimbus, furnace form, aura junction and impulse junction, flying flame, and weapon infusion can do a bananas amount of damage. There's a bit of setup there for sure, but assuming you can prebuff with furnace form (which I don't think is too big of an ask), turn one thermal nimbus, ignite the sun, two blasts, then next turn free concentrate on sun, flying flame, two blasts, it's a lot of damage for using no real resources. Maybe if more of that came in at earlier levels it would help with the damage curve, but adding much more damage to that might be a little much.
Personally I think other elements could use a buff. Fire out damages them by a lot, especially at 20. Maybe earth could benefit from desert winds (for single gate earth kineticists), for a start, even though with no non overflow damage impulses it wouldn't be that big of a boon (roiling mudslide doesn't count cause the damage is poopy, more of a crowd control impulse)
Why do you list this stuff like the other PCs in the group are standing around waiting for the fire kineticist to do this?
You have to and I mean have to look at this in comparison to what other party members are doing. It doesn't matter if the fire kineticist can get this great thing going when the monsters are already dead because the other PCs are doing similar amounts of damage far faster with less set up.
And yeah, the part about other elements I agree with. Fire is the best at damage with layered damage. Even they are not fast enough with the set up to get going like a caster or martial and the other elements are even worse.
We're focused on fire, but fire is the only element that is even close to competitive for damage. Every other element is far worse.
Casters hitting with a weapon is often like a second attack for a martial.
In PF2 casters are no longer weak at attacking with weapons. They have Expert with weapons. That is 2 points behind a Master proficiency martial..2 points. They are 4 points behind a fighter. They get as many ability boosts as a martial and it is super easy to increase dex or strength along with your main casting ability.
For some reason some PF2 players are highly resistant to building up a decent weapon for their casters, but to me it seems the PF2 designers giving a caster Expert weapon proficiency indicates it is fully intended that even casters should be using weapons.
If we taken even level 20:
1. Martial attack roll Master level: Str 24 Item +3 and Master proficiency +6 = 20 +7+6+3 = +36
2. Caster weapon attack roll; Dex +5 Item +3 Expert +4
Total: 20+5+3+4= +32
So you're about 4 points behind at max level with a weapon. So like a second attack.
I always recommend any caster pick up a built up weapon to add to the damage from their spells and play more of a Gandalf-style caster than the never enter melee style caster.
At least that is what I do to further enhance my damage as a caster. My opinion is the PF2 designers intended casters to use weapons to supplement their damage which is why you're only one proficiency rank behind master level martials now with weapons.
I think the psychic does very well at high levels as long as they get to refocus a lot. Your games don't allow that which just destroys high level psychics. I know I was doing just fine with my psychic at L19-20 even when we had 2 encounters back to back. Wouldn't have been able to handle 3 or more though.
My experience with psychics 1-20 is that refocusing every 2nd to 3rd encounter is essential, but also in combat they have surprising amounts of throughput via their psyche/mindshift feats.
Granted making best use of them is 100% party dependant and requires buy in for what I tend to call the 'party frag' tactic. (Esentially everyone but the frontliner(s) know to stand more than 20 feet from the Psychic, and the frontliners need to be prepared for every second AOE or so be unfriendly to them with the understanding that the damage they take from the psychic is less than they would take if the encounter went 1-2 turns longer. You ideally stand about 10feet behind the tankiest member of the group and basically chain detonate after dropping a persistent damage spell on round 1.
With the new Commander's 'slip and sizzle' manoeuvre I can see Psychics becoming absolute nova menaces when unleashed.