What do you think of kineticist damage?
The kineticist damage is good enough when able to AOE. They can hit a lot of targets for decent damage, especially for unlimited use.
But their single target damage seems very lacking. They have a real lack of single target damage impulses for use against single bosses like dragons or a single BBEG. They could use some single target damage impulses for use against bosses.
By level 15 or so, the average martial is using a 3 dice weapon with multiple energy runes.
An average rogue thief by 15 with an elven curve blade doing 3d8+11 plus 2d6 plus 3d6 sneak for a total range of 19 to 65 per action with automatically applied riders.
Whereas a kineticist at level 15 is using flying flame or solar detonation if fire for even single target dmage.
Flying Flame with impulse junction is doing: 8d6 to 8d8 with impulse junction for 8 to 64 for 2 actions with AOE possibility.
Solar Detonation: 10d8 fire and 6d6 vitality with impulse junction. This is 10 to 80 damage AOE for 3 actions witwh 6d6 vitality usable only against creatures damaged by vitality.
Fire is considered the highest damage. You're looking at 10 to 33 per action for flying flame to 3 to 27 per action for Solar Detonation.
Whereas a rogue is 19 to 65 damage per action.
That's a pretty wide gap when it comes to damage per action.
The kineticist can increase their damage substantially with increased number of targets they can hit.
They get very weak against single target enemies and AoE is unwieldy to use as well.
It would be nice to see the kineticist get some single target impulses that allow them to do higher damage per action against single targets.
Casters have a good mix of multitarget and single target attack spells. The kineticist could use some more single target impulses that do more damage or have a more powerful effect to be competitive in group play.
How are kineticist players feeling about kineticist damage? Are they competitive in your experience? Is there too much of an AOE focus and too few single target impulses for those fights against single BBEG? It feels like they lack good single target impulses.
I feel their damage is mostly fine because you won't run out of uses of your impulses during the day, though otherwise I think the damage could certainly be a bit higher. I say this for the fire and metal impulses, whose damage seem to be less than it should on purpose because there's stuff that increases it (in the case of the fire element, the fire impulse junction, and in the case of the metal element, the fact that most impulses deal more damage or have extra effects against metal targets). Fire still is the element with the highest damage, but to me the fire impulse junctions feels more like a patch to make the damage competitive rather a real increase, which does happen with air impulses and the Desert Wind impulse which greatly increases their damage.
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When it comes to single target damage Kieticists can choose to just hit things.
Let's look at the comparison point you made. You have a rogue with what for most rackets is their optimal weapon, fully upgraded, getting sneak attack and not only assuming it hits or crits, but also straight up assuming that they can do this multiple times per round.
That's fine for a white room math exercise, but in actual play I've found it exceptionally rare that I can safely start my turn next to a pre-debuffed/flanked enemy and drop all my actions striking, let alone assuming it's the default state of play.
Now let's look at level 15 kineticist with *just* a level appropriate gate attenuator and the level 1 feat 'weapon infusion'. Without needing to sneak or flank, or anything other than being within 20 feet of an enemy they can hit for 4d8+10 for two actions, or 4d8+5 for a single action (anywhere up to 100 feet away). This isnt factoring in aura effects, other powers, etc that the kineticist has at this level just plain strikes.
Is the kineticst as strong against a single target as a single target specialist as the rogue who is kitted out and is assuming everything is in their favour? No. Is it solid enough damage that can be done outside the reach of the vast majority of reactive strikes in the game all at a cost of a first level class feat? Yeah.
It's like how a kineticist will beat the rogue at AOE every time, but will be blown out of the water by a psychic when the white room math assumes that somehow it's turn 2, and the enemies are weak to will or reflex saves. If you set up the hypothetical to massively benifit one party then the results will skew towards that party.
Having great but conditional damage is fine, but you can't assume it's an every turn let alone multiple times a turn option. Paizo loves building encounters that often screw over certain playstyles. The second the enemy starts flying, or having exceptionaly dangerous 2-3 action options, or can't be flanked, or has multiple reactions per turn then getting up close with that elven curve blade becomes a bad idea.
Having lower but reliable damage with the only condition of being within 100 feet isn't *bad*. It's dependable. Having CON+STR potentially added to strikes within 20 feet is pretty decent. The price the Kineticist pays for not being the best at AOE or Single target damage is to be have reasonable but consistent throughput in more situations.
When it comes to single target damage Kieticists can choose to just hit things.
Let's look at the comparison point you made. You have a rogue with what for most rackets is their optimal weapon, fully upgraded, getting sneak attack and not only assuming it hits or crits, but also straight up assuming that they can do this multiple times per round.
That's fine for a white room math exercise, but in actual play I've found it exceptionally rare that I can safely start my turn next to a pre-debuffed/flanked enemy and drop all my actions striking, let alone assuming it's the default state of play.
Now let's look at level 15 kineticist with *just* a level appropriate gate attenuator and the level 1 feat 'weapon infusion'. Without needing to sneak or flank, or anything other than being within 20 feet of an enemy they can hit for 4d8+10 for two actions, or 4d8+5 for a single action (anywhere up to 100 feet away). This isnt factoring in aura effects, other powers, etc that the kineticist has at this level just plain strikes.
Is the kineticst as strong against a single target as a single target specialist as the rogue who is kitted out and is assuming everything is in their favour? No. Is it solid enough damage that can be done outside the reach of the vast majority of reactive strikes in the game all at a cost of a first level class feat? Yeah.
It's like how a kineticist will beat the rogue at AOE every time, but will be blown out of the water by a psychic when the white room math assumes that somehow it's turn 2, and the enemies are weak to will or reflex saves. If you set up the hypothetical to massively benifit one party then the results will skew towards that party.
Having great but conditional damage is fine, but you can't assume it's an every turn let alone multiple times a turn option. Paizo loves building encounters that often screw over certain playstyles. The second the enemy starts flying, or having exceptionaly dangerous 2-3 action options, or can't be flanked, or has multiple...
The rogue with haste and their reaction is going to average 2 to 3 hits per round against a single target applying Debilitations like 2d6 extra sneak attack damage and gang up.
Fighter similar with reactions.
Kineticist doesn't have reaction strike ability on top of inferior single target damage.
I think they need better single target impulses. AOE is ok, but a rogue or other martial can eat a mook a round usually. Once you get up to something like Master Strike, they can outright kill mooks per hit.
I think the kineticist gives up too much for AOE.
Also the inability to use something like Safe Elements with 3 action overflow impulses hurts them even more as they can't land their AOE precisely once other PCs are deployed against a group.
Safe Elements should be usable with 3 action overflow impulses as those are their highest damage impulses which still aren't on par with caster spells.
This is a game where you have a certain number of actions within a fight timeframe and damage per action on top of other factors like reactions and ability to deploy AOE precisely all affect the combat.
The inability to use 3 action overflow impulses precisely with Safe Elements, lack of good single target damage impulses, and lack of strong effects like slow or frightened 3 and such hurts their ability to compete at their role against casters or martials. It's put them in a strange position to be good at nothing. Not good at AOE, not good at single target.
It's a bit of an odd position. I'm on my third kineticist and their damage is weak. The only reason I find them enjoyable is their other added benefits make them fun to play in dual class games.
A single class kineticist is definitely lacking the AOE punch of casters or the single target punch of martials. With my dual class kineticists, I find myself mostly using their buffs and movement to support a martial or caster rather than using the damaging abilities of the kineticist itself because they are weak.
I thought the design intent of "reliable at-will AoE in exchange for poor single-target damage options" was intentional.
I'm wondering if that was the case.
If so, then why make it so hard to use safe elements with overflow impulses if AOE is intended to be used for single target fights too?
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You've now added 'Haste' to your hypothetical white room math example.
Not only did you create a comparison point which was perfectly suited to the rogue but now you are just assuming they are being supported and buffed by a pocket caster too?
If your GM is letting a 8hp/level martial safely stand next to enemies and get off 2-3hits (plus reactions) on average whilst also giving them time to be buffed without being targeted or punished...well that GM is straight up coddling your party.
Most martial classes trade damage for versatility. E.g. your 'sword and board' users opting for a shield for defence, or reserving and open hand for manoeuvres. Kineticist strikes stack up pretty well against most of them with the added flexibility of having no action tax to safely switch between melee and ranged without a loss of accuracy or damage. They get a lot of utility and AOE potential in exchange.
Once again they won't beat a hasted, single target specialist at single target damage, against a target that does nothing in response. But they arent *lacking* because of it.
It's like trying to argue that the Rogue needs buffs because its worse at combat when using an eleven curve blade whilst blinded and underwater, or that they they are bad because they lack class feats to give them a burrow speed. Creating unrealistic scenarios that heavily favour one class or another doesn't tell us anything.
It's like saying 'my formula 1 racing car can beat a Mazda in a race...provided that it's on a perfect racing surface and there is no traffic' the second you encounter a moderately sized speed hump you have a problem, and with AP's at least Paizo *loves* throwing speed bumps at parties. In those cases a moderate throughput workhorse preforms better than the hyper-specilised.
The kineticist fills a similar role as the Summoner. They don't have the same power ceilings as most of their peers, but they are given more tools to deal with adverse situations than their peers. For many people that's not a weakness, thats the appeal.
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I feel a rogue should out do a kineticist in single target damage. But even then, a kineticist isn't that far behind, and given all their extra cool stuff a kineticist can do, I feel that for the most part kineticist is in a good place. It might not be as flashy, but when looking at dpr, half damage on a successful save goes a long way.
More support for kineticist via interacting with the rest of the system though, that could use some work. I'm not on team 'blasts should work like strikes' but more save penalties/DC bonuses, more teamplay potential with kineticist and other classes would be great, or more itemization.
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My first thought at reading the OP was "wait, aren't blasts a thing?"
I haven't actually played a kineticist, but my vibe reading the class was similar to Inkfist. I'll add that their damage isn't shut off when they fight an enemy immune to precision damage, and with weapon infusion and other feats they actually get an incredible well to draw upon for weakness/resistance games.
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I have seen a water-and-air kineticst (playtest kineticist Collin), a water-and-wood kineticist (Monet), and a fire kineticist (Cara) in my campaigns. The first two had seriously helpful non-damage support, so no-one minded that their damage was weak. Weak damage on the fire kineticist was more surprising.
Actually, my observations and the numbers in the kineticist class are that the basic Elemental Blast deals as much damage as a bow in the hands of a martial that lacks abilities good for bow use, such as a ranger's Precision Edge. That is reasonable at range. But Cara is one of the tougher PCs in my Strength of Thousands campaign due to the spellcaster-friendly Magaambya School of Magic setting, so she often stands in front to protect the squishies. But Cara has no heavy-hitting option at melee range like Strength-based martials have.
She does have the option of a one-action blast followed by a two-action impulse that requires a save, such as Flying Flame, to avoid multiple attack penalties. She also sometimes consumes her kinetic gate with more damaging overflow impulse Blazing Wave and then gets a free blast in the action that restores her gate.
In conclusion, though Cara's individual-shot damage is lackluster, it is persistent with two reliable shots per turn.
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If we compare kineticist damage to bow and gun users, I think it's sort of in the same ballpark? With maybe more flexibility in areas and damage types, but less pure single target damage?
Compared to melee it doesn't look so good, but guns and bows also don't look good compared to melee. You pay for the benefits of ranged (not needing to be close to enemies that are strongest in melee, and not needing actions to move to enemies).
You've now added 'Haste' to your hypothetical white room math example.
Not only did you create a comparison point which was perfectly suited to the rogue but now you are just assuming they are being supported and buffed by a pocket caster too?
If your GM is letting a 8hp/level martial safely stand next to enemies and get off 2-3hits (plus reactions) on average whilst also giving them time to be buffed without being targeted or punished...well that GM is straight up coddling your party.
Most martial classes trade damage for versatility. E.g. your 'sword and board' users opting for a shield for defence, or reserving and open hand for manoeuvres. Kineticist strikes stack up pretty well against most of them with the added flexibility of having no action tax to safely switch between melee and ranged without a loss of accuracy or damage. They get a lot of utility and AOE potential in exchange.
Once again they won't beat a hasted, single target specialist at single target damage, against a target that does nothing in response. But they arent *lacking* because of it.
It's like trying to argue that the Rogue needs buffs because its worse at combat when using an eleven curve blade whilst blinded and underwater, or that they they are bad because they lack class feats to give them a burrow speed. Creating unrealistic scenarios that heavily favour one class or another doesn't tell us anything.
It's like saying 'my formula 1 racing car can beat a Mazda in a race...provided that it's on a perfect racing surface and there is no traffic' the second you encounter a moderately sized speed hump you have a problem, and with AP's at least Paizo *loves* throwing speed bumps at parties. In those cases a moderate throughput workhorse preforms better than the hyper-specilised.
The kineticist fills a similar role as the Summoner. They don't have the same power ceilings as most of their peers, but they are given more tools to deal with adverse situations than their peers. For many people that's not a...
Why don't you explain to me how a single BBEG boss is stopping a party from hitting them? I want to hear how that's done since a few on here keep claiming it's easy to stop a party from doing the type of attacking they do.
A rogue sneak attacking multiple times against a boss monster is not some difficult to do ability. It's extremely easy and extremely difficult to stop.
So please explain how you do this fight after fight after fight stopping the rogue from doing what the rogue is built to do. Please, enlighten me.
My first thought at reading the OP was "wait, aren't blasts a thing?"
I haven't actually played a kineticist, but my vibe reading the class was similar to Inkfist. I'll add that their damage isn't shut off when they fight an enemy immune to precision damage, and with weapon infusion and other feats they actually get an incredible well to draw upon for weakness/resistance games.
Blasts are half cantrip damage for one action with MAP. They increase one die every 4 levels and cap out at 5 dice. With weapon infusion, you can add in strength. Otherwise, they do just the dice.
They aren't usable with three action overflow impulses, but are usable with two action damage impulses like flying flame with no MAP as flying flame is a saving throw.
So if you had a flying flame go off with the impulse junction, you would do 8d8 fire with a 4d6+3 or 4 for strength using weapon infusion. Then with Thermal Nimbus with aura junction, you would get something like weakness 8 added for 8d8+8 fire and 4d6+11 fire and 8 flat fire damage from the nimbus.
44 plus 25 plus 16 for 85 damage in a round with no crits. Haste doesn't help a kineticist as they can't use blasts or any other ability with haste.
Whereas a rogue at 15 would do 3d8+11 weapon plus 3d6 sneak attack and 2d6 energy for abut 46 per hit on average with a Reaction from Opportune backstab. Thief usually can add 2d6 after the first hit for an additional 7 damage.
So if they hit twice then once with a reaction that would be about 152 damage in a round. So a rogue can about double the damage of a fire kineticist, the highest damage kineticist in a round doing very average rogue things. Two attacks hitting with a reaction attack that is easily activated.
If the highest damage fire kineticist is doing half rogue damage for single target, that seems a little low to me.
Why do some on here keep arguing that kineticist has more tools? They don't and certainly aren't better.
The rogue has debilitations. The thief in particular can add 2d6 sneak damage with debilitations. Once they get double debilitations, they can make the target off-guard to everyone or add enfeebled since gang up usually off-guards to everyone anyway.
Fighter has Crashing Slam to prone a target with a hit and multiple reactions for reactive strikes. They also have whirlwind attack for close up aoe damage.
Barb has lots of brutal attacks.
Casters have all types of slows, debuffs, and a vast spell array far more effective than the kineticist.
Even something like Molten Wire is Clumsy 1 and never scales up at all. Casters can add debuffs far superior to the kineticist.
The kineticist has good movement abilities and some ok defensive abilities. I wouldn't say they are far superior to other classes, especially since ancestries give good movement capabilities like flight to almost everyone.
If we compare kineticist damage to bow and gun users, I think it's sort of in the same ballpark? With maybe more flexibility in areas and damage types, but less pure single target damage?
Compared to melee it doesn't look so good, but guns and bows also don't look good compared to melee. You pay for the benefits of ranged (not needing to be close to enemies that are strongest in melee, and not needing actions to move to enemies).
The fire kineticist may be roughly equivalent a bow user. Not a starlit span magus or precision ranger, but maybe a bow fighter. But the bow fighter does get deadly on the bow and other feats to improve things like Debilitating Shot to slow an enemy with no save, which is a better debuff than almost anything the kineticist can do.
The overflow mechanics make for some real bad action economy too, especially if you have to move. This further slows damage rotations while other classes experience almost no action economy drags like this to slow their damage.
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Kineticist damage from flying flame is ranged so the point of comparison would need to be what a rogue is doing at range too. Melee already will have a single target damage advantage over ranged.
Also since flying flame can hit multiple targets and isnt a limited use ability it has to be less damage for that reason as well.
Comparing it to the damage of a melee rogue is apples to oranges.
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IMO for a character that have many utility impulses, unlimited resources, a great variety of damage types and can hit different defenses, a well amount of healing, many AoE damages, instant change from melee <-> range damage and a robust chassis kineticists is in a very good state.
Compare it with a rogue doesn't look fair once that rogues a basic skill monkeys very specialized into single target usually melee physical + precision damage.
Specially considering that rogues are overpowered too me. They are too much strong for a skill monkey in both chassis, feats and damage. It is like comparing normal apples with big and beautiful transgenic oranges.
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A kineticist will not match the single target damage of a rogue, no.
You are comparing one of the best single target damage dealers of the game with a class designed around AoE.
But his own damage is not actually as bad as you make it out to be.
First of all, we should aknowledge that it's mostly ranged damage, 20-30ft of range vs melee makes a lot of difference, both in expected output (lower), but also in action economy (better).
Let's take the level you are comparing, 15:
A fire kineticist would be in fiery form, doing a 5d6+4+7(weakness) blast and a 8d8+7 flying flame, and with a free movement every round due to free action sustain, it's very easy to always stay in range of your attacks.so it's 16-41 per action for the blast and 8-44 per action for the flying flame, multiplied by the amount of targets.
Ok. I can accept the argument that a rogue is not the best comparison since the rogue is the best martial, and arguably the best class in PF2.
What class should kineticist compare to? Where's there niche?
They don't have unlimited healing. The cooldowns make their healing worse than an actual healer. Being able to use a heal one time a battle isn't a great healer. That basically means if you have even six battles a day, you can heal six times, once each character. That often isn't necessary since the entire group may not even take damage.
Having healing from spells that can be used as needed multiple times on the same character is much better healing.
Having played three kineticists now, where do they shine?
1. Defenses: Things like protector tree or using ferrous form as often as you want are often pretty powerful defensive abilities.
Getting eventual immunity is a pretty rare ability. I know I've built up to six immunities on my kineticist.
2. AOE: They have a lot of AOE. If you can use it, hitting multiple targets each attack can add up. It isn't quite as good as casters with the overflow mechanic and low damage, but can add up compared to a single target martial though whirlwind barbarians and fighters can be pretty nasty.
One problem I've seen is the AOE can be hard to use sometimes when the party is engaged. Safe Elements is a 1 action activity, so you can't use it with 3 action overflow blasts which are often your strong AOE.
3. Mobility: They have a lot of different forms of mobility. Flight is easy to get. Earth can let you burrow around. They have some good mobility, especially air.
Where are they weak?
1. Single Target Damage: It is pretty low. Maybe bow or gun damage, I'd have to check. Definitely weaker than martials and casters. Casters can do a lot of single target damage when they want to.
2. Debuffs: Their debuffs are pretty weak and often don't scale up very well. Even one of their best debuffs Solar Detonation with possible blindness has incap and only blinds on a crit fail. It's like a mini-sunburst.
3. Action Economy: The overflow mechanic makes for some slow action economy for some their hardest hitting abilities. You can't use Safe elements with Overflow 3 actions. You can't move unless hasted. It slows you next round having to use an action to get the kinetic aura back up. This can cancel a lot of abilities that cause damage at the start or end of turns since your aura is down until your next turn. Thermal Nimbus definitely a painful loss when using an overflow ability with 3 actions.
The kineticist plays a bit clunky at times. I think they could use some improved effectiveness to make up for the clunky mechanics.
What class do they or should they compare to?
The rogue outclasses them substantially, but they do that to almost every class.
Fighter and barb much better at single target. And can do some nasty AOE with a lot of martial control abilities.
Maybe they fall into the ranger level of damage. The ranger is a jack of all trades that shines as a support martial with additional damage.
Rangers have middling single target damage with Hunt Prey acting as an action throttle as they level. But if you build them for support, they can be a great addition to a group without the high damage.
Maybe a kineticist is competing for that sort of jack of all trades ranger type of role in a group. Maybe that's what they intended.
What do you think of kineticist damage?
I don’t like it. Kineticists just don’t really do anything for me thematically nor do I enjoy the narrative they evoke. I tried to play a Chaokineticist (I think) once, and it just wasn’t very interesting.
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An average rogue thief by 15 with an elven curve blade doing 3d8+11 plus 2d6 plus 3d6 sneak for a total range of 19 to 65 per action with automatically applied riders.
Oh boy, I do so love those topics !
What does a level 15 kineticist have over a rogue ?
First, it's way sturdier. Armor in earth and CON as a primary means you have at least 1 more AC, 2 more HP/level than a rogue, armor specialization and funny things like Spike skin that give you DR 10 and makes everyone hitting you take 8 damage.
Then, like you said, it can AOE. It's not something you can just ignore by saying "it's good enough when able to AOE". The rogue just cannot output the damage a kineticist does when there are multiple opponents.
So where does that leave us ? The rogue is better at single target damage and skills, while the kineticist is tougher and better at AOE damage. Sounds pretty balanced, right ?
But wait. Let's break this down, using an earth/fire kineticist, because that's what I play and what is widely considered to be the best build dps-wise. Starting with 3 STR and 4 CON, he at lvl 15 has 5 STR and 5+ CON. He has Thermal nimbus and took fire junction.
What are the possible outcomes ?
First, the opponent is in your fire aura. So, he gets hit with 14 damage from turn start, no save, no rolls. Those 14 free damage are incredibly useful against opponents with good saves and AC, like bosses - so, the most important fights. It's also 14 free damage PER opponent in your aura, so it adds up incredibly quickly.
But let's go back to single damage. You already dealt 14 certain damage. Now, with 1 action, you can deal 4d6+5 (str) + 7 (weakness) for an average of 26.
With 2 actions, you can use Flying flame for 8d8 damage without shutting down your gate, or Blazing wave for 9d8 and prone-crit effect if you shut it down. Don't forget the 7 weakness as well.
And of course, with 3 actions, you can use both, Flying flame into Elemental blast for 4d6+5 and 7 weakness, then 8d8 and 7 weakness, without any MAP.
If we combine it all, we have 14 unavoidable damage + 4d6+8d8 + 19 for an average of 83.
I don't know how we can weight in the fact that some damage is unavoidable and that weaknesses don't double on a crit, but that still looks pretty solid to me.
Meanwhile, from your own numbers, your rogue deals 3d8+5d6+11, average 42. So unless you're actually hitting ALL THREE OF YOUR ATTACKS THROUGH MAP, I'm afraid your rogue is behind or just barely ahead.
And I can do this from 30 feet away, which means using my 3 actions to attack is much more likely than the rogue, who will probably have to burn at least one action on positioning.
You took one of the best class in the game, gave it the best weapon you could think of, in the best situation he's supposed to shine in, and the kineticist still beat him. Add just ONE MORE opponent and it becomes ridiculously one-sided.
That's "what I think of Kineticist damage" ^^
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It gets worse he also presumes to be getting haste and reaction damage in this scenario and got frustrated when it was suggested that enemies typically will punish squishy characters who conventiently start their turn next to them and who try to attack three+ times.
White room math is great if you are calculating how much damage you can do to a low AC immobile block of tofu.
You are more likely to find a monster that has multiple reactions, or resistances, or immunities, or forces players into bad choices via saves or by having exceptionaly punishing 2-3 action options. You just have to play through some of the earlier AP's to find how often Paizo is willing to throw creatures that are immune to precision damage and/or crits at you.
Sometimes monsters just grab (and swallow) players. Sometimes they just fly which makes the ranged martials and casters feel great, but kind of screws over anyone that hyper invested their character's wealth in that optimal blade and its property runes.
These hyper cheesy 'class X is better than class Y because of this heavily cherry picked scenario' are unhelpful because they always devolve into 'hypothetical batman builds'. The 1e message boards used to be riddled with players arguing that nothing could beat a wizard, but the second someone pointed out actual play experiences and scenarios then the *hypothetical* wizard was suddenly one who magically had the exact feats, archetypes and options that would be sub-optimal or barely functional for a dozen levels or so, but were perfectly tailored to that exact scenario.
So yeah, apparently the rogue is hasted. If we point out that kieticists can switch hit and deal with flying enemies well then suddenly the rogue will have a flight speed/airwalk. If we point out that assuming that you hit 3+ times a round is unlikely, then the enemy will be clumsy 3 and the Rouge has their pocket caster pre-buff them with a high rank 'heroism'
The kineticist doesn't do bad damage because it has bad damage. The kineticist comes off second best because its a bad comparison point. It would be like arguing the rouge was a sub-par striker because the only measure I used was damage against a bunch of enemies tightly clustered in a 10 foot burst.
What class should kineticist compare to? Where's there niche?
A kineticist is a cantrip based blaster caster turned up to 11. Their impulses are not as good as a full rank spell, but they can do it all day with no limitations.
Lightning Dash is a level 4 feat. It deals 2d12 electric in a 30 ft line, with basic reflex. At level 4, cantrips are at Rank 2. At Rank 2, electric arc does 3d4 to 2 targets, basis Ref. Rank 2 sudden bolt is single target 4d12, basic ref. Average damage is 13 vs. 7.5 vs. 26. This is also the highest damaging spell at that rank. Most are more along the lines of 2d8-2d10 damage. Dropping the average to 11. Heightened rank 2 breathe fire does 4d6, or an average of 13.5.
Kineticist outguns a cantrip, but isn't as good as a on rank spell. Difference is a level 4 spellcaster has at best 5 castings of a rank 2 spell for the day, and that assumes the spell is their school spell and they use their bonded item to cast it. Kineticist can do it all day.
Lightning dash hits 3d12 at level 7. Our spellcaster's electric arc deals 5d4 and rank 4 lighning bolt does 5d12. Averages of 19.5, 12.5 and 32.5, respectively.
The kineticist is decidedly average as far as damage goes unless your late game team is all in on abusing berms and lightning snares to push enemies through hell.
Push a large creature through 6 berms worth of squares (stack them vertically) with fighter's push feat and that's 42d6 of single target at level 16 ending in the local snarecrafter's stun snare and damage snare. If you have anyone else with a push send them back the other way to do it all over again.
It gets worse he also presumes to be getting haste and reaction damage in this scenario and got frustrated when it was suggested that enemies typically will punish squishy characters who conventiently start their turn next to them and who try to attack three+ times.
Haste aside, how weak are your parties that you aren't getting reaction attacks off constantly? Gang up, opportune backstab and preparation mean you should be getting 1 or 2 off per round with the rogue seeing as you don't need to worry about positioning and the constant +3 and +4 aids coming in to guarentee your melee partner hits, not to mention any of the other omnipresent resourceless buffs and debuffs available.
Chaokineticist? Is that a 1e thing? I don't think anyone will argue with you for not liking a 1e class's narrative (Remember that 1e Kineticists were supposed to be invoking Firestarter, Carrie, and other Psychic Powers At A Cost fantasies? They really did not express that well at all)What do you think of kineticist damage?I don’t like it. Kineticists just don’t really do anything for me thematically nor do I enjoy the narrative they evoke. I tried to play a Chaokineticist (I think) once, and it just wasn’t very interesting.
It appears to be a Pathfinder 1st Edition kineticist with Void element: Kineticist Elements. I never saw a kineticist in my PF1 games. I think the class was unpopular.
The PF2 playtest kineticist Collin does not count as a choice, but my next two PF2 campaigns each had a player choosing kineticist. I count that as popular. The water-and-wood kineticist Monet was played by my wife. She is a grandmaster tactician, so battlefield control and narrative control matter more to her than damage. For example, at 5th level she added earth to her elements, and delayed the arrival of enemy reinforcements by summoning a stone cube to block a door.
It gets worse he also presumes to be getting haste and reaction damage in this scenario and got frustrated when it was suggested that enemies typically will punish squishy characters who conventiently start their turn next to them and who try to attack three+ times.Haste aside, how weak are your parties that you aren't getting reaction attacks off constantly? Gang up, opportune backstab and preparation mean you should be getting 1 or 2 off per round with the rogue seeing as you don't need to worry about positioning and the constant +3 and +4 aids coming in to guarentee your melee partner hits, not to mention any of the other omnipresent resourceless buffs and debuffs available.
I think Deriven Firelion summed up the kineticist's damage well. My previous experience watching Collin and Monet in my games demonstrated them as great generalists rather than damage dealers. Fire kineticist Cara in Strength of Thousands has been trying to deal serious damage, but comes across more as a versatile damage dealer than a dealer of massive damage.
I don't know about reactions in Inkfist's party, but reaction attacks are non-existent in my Strength of Thousands party. The champion uses his reactions to defend the party. The rogue is running two archetypes, Gelid Shard and Sorcerer, that use up all her class and free archetype feats, so her only reaction feat is 1st-level Nimble Dodge. The kineticist Cara has no reaction abilities that I know of. And the starlit magus, two bards, and wizard keep their distance from enemies.
The kineticist is decidedly average as far as damage goes unless your late game team is all in on abusing berms and lightning snares to push enemies through hell.
Push a large creature through 6 berms worth of squares (stack them vertically) with fighter's push feat and that's 42d6 of single target at level 16 ending in the local snarecrafter's stun snare and damage snare. If you have anyone else with a push send them back the other way to do it all over again.
It gets worse he also presumes to be getting haste and reaction damage in this scenario and got frustrated when it was suggested that enemies typically will punish squishy characters who conventiently start their turn next to them and who try to attack three+ times.Haste aside, how weak are your parties that you aren't getting reaction attacks off constantly? Gang up, opportune backstab and preparation mean you should be getting 1 or 2 off per round with the rogue seeing as you don't need to worry about positioning and the constant +3 and +4 aids coming in to guarentee your melee partner hits, not to mention any of the other omnipresent resourceless buffs and debuffs available.
We haven't tried the berm strategy.
So far my kineticist have been:
1. Fire and metal ghost rider concept.
2. Fire and earth dual class with metal added with an elemental earth barbarian. This combination is pretty insane. The barb does the damage and the defenses are so good that he can take a severe beating. The DM had to make a single creature do damage to do 150 percent of level 20 creature damage to threaten this character.
3. Fire and Air kineticist. Pretty mobile with Air. Not great damage, but interesting.
Reaction attacks are easy to set up in well built groups. We get them all the time.
The rogue has one of the easiest to activate reactions with Opportune Backstab.
I take Opportune Backstab on fighters and barbarians and nearly any martial since even at level 16 Opportune Backstab is great and easy to set up. I also take Gang up on almost all martials to make flanking easy so we don't have to position on each side of a creature.
So not sure why anyone thinks Reactions are hard to set off. In a coordinated group, reactions are very easy to set up and activate, especially Opportune Backstab which requires an ally to land a melee hit on the same target.
I have had zero problems getting Opportune Backstab to activate in battles. Not sure why anyone would consider it a difficult to use reaction unless they didn't know how to play the game or have much experience.
And of course, with 3 actions, you can use both, Flying flame into Elemental blast for 4d6+5 and 7 weakness, then 8d8 and 7 weakness, without any MAP.
If we combine it all, we have 14 unavoidable damage + 4d6+8d8 + 19 for an average of 83.
I don't know how we can weight in the fact that some damage is unavoidable and that weaknesses don't double on a crit, but that still looks pretty solid to me.
Meanwhile, from your own numbers, your rogue deals 3d8+5d6+11, average 42. So unless you're actually hitting ALL THREE OF YOUR ATTACKS THROUGH MAP, I'm afraid your rogue is behind or just barely ahead.
And I can do this from 30 feet away, which means using my 3 actions to attack is much more likely than the rogue, who will probably have to burn at least one action on positioning.
Do you ever play rogues? Landing 3 attacks per round is the default for a rogue. They will usually get up to 4 to 5 attack attempts with haste and their reaction with debilitations.
Your kineticist damage set up will be round 1:
Round 1: Activate Kineticist aura and Thermal Nimbus Stance. Use Flying Flame for 8d8 Reflex save damage so long as you don't have to close with a 7 weakness from the aura junction.
Average: 43 flying flame + 14 aura for 57 round 1.
Round 2: Flying Flame again with weakness 8d8 with 7 weakness, 14 fire from the aura, and blast 4d6+4 str using weapon infusion thrown or a melee hit with 7 weakness and 14 fire from aura.
Average: 43 flying flame 14 aura 25 blast for 82
Rogue Thief round 1:
Round 1: Move in with Stealth for initiative or delay until martial moves into range for gang up then move in. Attack apply Double debilitation Off-guard and 2d6 sneak attack bonus. First attack does with Elven Curve Blade: 3d8+11 plus 3d6 sneak attack plus 2d6 energy for runes. Strike two more times for 3d+11 plus 5d6 sneak attack plus 2d6 energy.
Reaction Strike: 3d8+11 plus 5d6 sneak attack plus 2d6 energy. This assumes 2 hits of the 3 attempted.
42 damage first strike 49 for every strike after that that doesn't require Debilitation set up.
Round 2: Caster should be able to get haste up and running on entire group including kineticist and rogue. Haste doesn't impact kineticist much as blasts don't count as strikes.
Rogue attacks 3 to 4 times depending on if haste active. Assuming two hits and their reaction hit.
3 hits in a round for 3d8+11 plus 5d6 sneak attack plus 2d6 energy.
49 a hit x 4 147 in a round by round 2 while off-guarding target for the entire group including ranged attackers. Every additional hit adds around 49 average damage with variation for high and low rolls.
147 average single target damage averaging 2 hits and a reaction hit with potential 3 to 4 attacks with haste.
82 average single target damage averaging missed save and an attack and automatic 14 damage from aura.
Any misses or saves halving or cutting damage can affect both classes.
In my experience, it is extremely common for a level 15 rogue to land at least 2 attacks and a reaction strike a round.
The above is the average attack routine of a fire kineticist not using Overflow which slows their attack routine. If there is any movement it may alter both damage.
The kinetic aura starts out at 10 feet and is increased using a feat called Aura Shaping which boosts your aura to 20 feet. Then 25 feet at level 15 and 30 feet at level 20. So Blue Frog statemen of doing the damage from 30 feet away is not true until level 20 when the rogue will have Master Strike which against any weak target is a chance to straight up kill them.
The kineticist operates best with 20 feet of a target using weapon infusion for thrown weapon with thrown trait allowing the kineticist to add their strength to a kinetic blast without incurring a range increment penalty.
They have to operate within 10 feet of a target until level 10, but this comparison is level 15. So a 20 foot aura is common.
I usually build up strength on my damage kineticists to take advantage of weapon infusion adding strength to damage while using a 2 action damage impulse.
It's still pretty low. I wonder how it it compares to a ranger.
A rogue will normally do way more damage than a kineticist single target. Kineticist has more AOE capability.
I'm going to track this. I'm in a group right now with a fighter and a rogue thief with fire and metal ghost rider kineticist. I want to see how they compare in damage.
So far the rogue and fighter are the star killers getting crits more often. Rogue and fighter are extremely common in my groups as they are top dog damage dealers. My players love to play the big dog hammers rather than try to figure out how to make a weaker class do well.
I'll see if I can find some combos to make the kineticist competitive as the fighter and rogue come into their power.
You probably shouldn't count Furnace Form if you're not gonna count Haste, they have the same upfront action investment and duration. Though Furnace Form damage would also increase quite a bit if you're getting hit back by the target for even more guaranteed weakness procs.
The whole calculation of adding just the damage values together is kind of misleading anyhow as these damages all have various different odds of applying (some happen always, some on anything but a crit success, some using a Basic save, some with an attack roll). They'd need their own multipliers.But yeah, all in all I'd say Deriven gives a decent synopsis of the classes' general peaks and valleys there. One more thing to mention would be that you are bad at skills, which hurts unless the challenge in question just happens to be solvable with the Base Kinesis of your respective element(s).
I don't count furnace form because it slows down how fast you get into the fight.
PF2 fights for damage:
1. How fast can you deploy your attack routine.
2. How easy it is to maintain your attack sequence.
3. Reaction attacks or abilities.
If you're setting up furnace form and the rogue is hammering away, you lost time to do damage.
Fights are short in PF2. I've experienced this battle after battle after battle. You have to hit hard and fast.
That's why casters that do the most damage are those that hit the enemies as hard as they can as fast as they can. That's why Sudden Charge and other action compressors are best.
You have to think about what you are doing to set your damage up.
If you're going, I use furnace form for 2 actions and then 1 action stance thermal nimbus, then the enemy is already getting hit by the other members of the group like the rogue moving in, the caster dropping a chain lightning, the fighter sudden charge close and you just spent an entire round to set up, then have to move next round.
I've used furnace form for flying capability, which also requires an action to hover if you fly. It's better as the free sustain you get at level 12 with the half move. The set up time can slow you down, same as the overflow impulses going in and out of stance slow you down.
That's why the flying flame with the blast with the thermal nimbus is the easiest to set up and bring to bear quickly.
In PF2 how quick you can bring the damage to bear is very important. So convoluted setups don't match simple damage set ups.
Adding in furnace form is going to slow you down by a round at least to gain a slight bit of possible damage. It's going to put you behind faster damage set ups even if on paper it looks like the overall set up is going to be competitive.
You've got to think out how long the set up will take, distance to target, how many move actions to close to the target, and get everything working.
If you have advance notice, maybe you can fast furnace form in advance. Lacking advance notice, you're going to slow yourself down and watch stuff die before you even get to attack casting things like furnace form on a single target.
Blue Frog,
You took one of the best class in the game, gave it the best weapon you could think of, in the best situation he's supposed to shine in, and the kineticist still beat him. Add just ONE MORE opponent and it becomes ridiculously one-sided.
Since I cannot change the post above, I'll cull this. No, your kineticist lost by almost half.
Rogue with 3 hits including reaction: 147 average single target damage averaging 2 hits and a reaction hit with potential 3 to 4 attacks with haste.
First attack: 3d8+11 +3d6 sneak attack plus 2d6 energy runes: 43
Second attack and on: 3d8+11 +5d6 sneak attack (Thief debilitation) +2d6 energy rune: 49 per attack
3 attacks round 1 including reaction: 141
3 attacks round 2 and on: 147
Kineticist using flying flame, thermal nimbus, and blast assuming failed save, hit, and being within 25 feet as is required by the thermal nimbus: 82 average single target damage averaging missed save and an attack and automatic 14 damage from aura.
8d8 which is an average of 36 plus 8 on failed save 44
Thermal Nimbus; 14
4d6+11: 25 on blast if hit
82 to 83 total
141 to 147 average damage for the rogue thief
82 to 83 average damage from the fire kineticist
That is not the fire kineticist winning at all. Not sure where you got your numbers. You seem to have ignored debilitations.
I did not include crits because that could benefit either class. Single target, the rogue thief is beating a fire kineticist with 2 hits and crushing them with 3 or more.
Whereas the fire kineticist needs the failed save and the hit every round to get that damage. Every round they must have 100 percent success with everyone of their abilities to do that damage.
Whereas the rogue only needs to hit 2 times to equal the fire kineticist, three times to beat them, and any more times they absolutely crush the fire kineticist with nothing the fire kineticist can do to increase their output as haste doesn't really help the fire kineticist.
You really miscalculated the possibilities given the fire kineticist needs 100 percent success on all their abilities and to be within 25 feet.
Whereas the rogue needs about 40 percent success rate to equal the fire kineticist and a 60 percent to easily crush their damage.
You only get the strength bonus for blasts using weapon infusion with the thrown 20 feet trait.
So you need to recalculate what you consider "beating" as the numbers don't align with your statement.
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I still insist that comparing the kineticist to the rogue is a meaningless comparison; it's still like comparing food and water. Both are important, but they have completely different and complementary meanings.
The kineticist is a difficult class to compare. It “casts”, but it can't be directly compared to casters because having unlimited resources and a martial chassis that easily varies from light to heavy and high HP greatly influences the player's choices and gameplay. This ultimately ends up being quite different from what they would have with a caster with more limited resources.
To begin with, if I were to compare it to any other class, the closest comparable class in terms of chassis, versatility, and range would be the alchemist. And on this same point, the alchemist is far from being the king of damage. And yet, the alchemist needs some resource management (although now in the remaster it's much smaller) but have a way larger available options due to how easily and cheap get all formulas of the game and choose what you need just in time.
If you push a little further, maybe a psychic or oracle, or even a druid, or an animist due to the available focus spells. However, everyone still has to deal with a lot of daily resources or resources that can be used up in a longer encounter.
The last thing I'd compare it to would be the rogue!
Following this logic, almost this entire thread, with all due respect to everyone here, is nonsense. Many of the answers are based on meaningless comparisons and end up being irrelevant or barely relevant.
The starting point that should always be made before starting a class comparison discussion is: How do you want to play?
If you want to do high single-target DPR, then the kineticist isn't for you. In fact, I'll go even further: no spellcaster is truly suited for this role. In the best case scenario, you'll simply spend a lot of resources to get the same result or close to what a barbarian would have without spending anything!
The Kineticist as a DPR is only an alternative for casters who don't want to worry about resources or who want a more robust chassis like AoE DPR. It beats a single-target martial because if you add up the damage it deals simultaneously, you'll likely have a higher number of enemies.
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Ok let's look at the hypothetical scenario you've set up, and factor in the claim that hitting 3-5 times a round is standard for your rogue.
The scenario you give is a level 15 rogue with an eleven curve blade with level appropriate runes beginning the encounter unseen, undetected with haste.
I'm going to be extraordinarily generous and say the enemy is a level appropriate block of tofu with no abilities, senses, spells, or anything else other than the 'moderate' AC for an equal leveled enemy. To land a 3rd attack against a moderately armoured equal leveled enemy with a weapon that has finesse but not agile you'd have to roll 16 or higher.
This is with a rogue that has maxxed out stats and runes runes for their level and surprise attack giving you off guard for every attack. With this optimal set-up you are still missing that 3rd strike 75% of the time.
It's both worth noting that a single at-level enemy is a 40xp trivial encounter, and an 'moderate AC' enemy that you could reliably hit more than half the time with that third strike would need to four or more levels below you which would count as a 10xp lackey.
This is not trolling, this is the scenario *you* put forward to argue your case. To reliably hit as often as you claim you have to have had 'haste' cast on you, you've had to sneak up on your enemy, you've had to win initiative, but to hit 'at least 3-5 times a turn' it would have to have been against literally the lowest threat encounter for your level in the XP table.
If we use the encounter XP rules to create a single enemy that will count as a moderate threat then that third attack lands only 10% of the time against an 'off guard' enemy with only moderate AC
Of course the Rogue feels great if you get buffed and spent a night chain critting lackeys. I wasn't trolling when I said that wasn't the standard experience for most people. I'm not saying Rogue isn't a strong class. What I AM saying is either something is very off with the scenario you have presented to highlight the strength of the class, or if this *is* a reflection of your average play experience then your GM is coddling your party beyond belief.
From my very many readings of Deriven’s posts, I think, to the contrary, Deriven’s group plays ultra high powered and hard enemies. With a bunch of fairly optimised characters and tactically savvy players.
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Try against an Ancient adamantine dragon a +3 creature for a level 15 party.
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From my very many readings of Deriven’s posts, I think, to the contrary, Deriven’s group plays ultra high powered and hard enemies. With a bunch of fairly optimised characters and tactically savvy players.
Yes but that would reinforce the point that his experiences aren't in line with most people's. Probably the biggest evidence of this is that in the 'worst class' thread there is a paragraph or so about how focus power/spell based classes are terrible as parties rarely ever get to refocus between encounters...which once again doesn't line up with most people's experience.
If you are in a tactical group where enemies are often severely debuffed to the point of triviality then it's probably worth mentioning the spell and action costs involved to set up that scenario rather than just assuming it as standard.
My group often runs 'protect the president/superstar' compositions, where everyone typically supports a single character to do ludicrous damage. However, I can't pretend that the 'superstar' does all of that damage without turns and turns of actions and support.
When you casually go 'class X can't do damage' but then a dozen responses in you find their comparison point was a dual class game with assumed pocket caster support and multiple set-up rounds then its *possible* that it may not be either a good or fair comparison. In this case an equal level enemy with moderate AC would need to be Clumsy 3 for the argument that the Rogue is HITTING more than three times in a round where they have surprise attack to be accurate more than half the time. (I.e. a second pocket caster beating the everyone in inititive and dropping 'Synesthesia' before the hasted Rogue gets their surprise attack turn. It's theoretically possible but now the hypothetical assumes either multiple unmentioned pocket casters setting the rogue up, or is a staggeringly trivial encounter. Possible, but neither represents the experiences of most players.
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a hasted rogue attacking multiple times and getting their reaction is the game working as intended and not some special set up.
I think you need to change that statement to
A hasted rogue attacking multiple times and getting their reaction is the game working IN ONE OF THE WAYS THAT IT IS intended.
Its very clear from your posts that your table works differently than a great many tables. Some of that difference seems to be that your table does a lot of optimization of both individual characters and of the group as a whole. There seem to be other differences but I haven't been able to figure out what they are.
And that is just fine. You presumably are all having fun and have found balance points that work for your hyper optimizing groups.
But the game is ALSO working as intended when a group of more casual players get together with less optimized characters or when (as in PFS) a random assortment of strangers get together with characters built with no knowledge at all of what else will be at the table.
It is one of the huge strengths of PF2 that it is comparatively simple for the GM to tweak the difficulty of the game to fit the characters/players abilities.
But it does make it very difficult to have discussions about kineticist damage because we just don't share the same assumptions about how groups and characters should work together. At the tables I've been at Kineticists do just fine with their combination of AOE, utility, single target damage, healing, control, etc. But I've only ever seen 1 kineticist played at L15+ and that was not in a particularly optimized game (not particularly unoptimized either). In that game, they're contributing their fair share to the groups success.
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Its very clear from your posts that your table works differently than a great many tables. Some of that difference seems to be that your table does a lot of optimization of both individual characters and of the group as a whole. There seem to be other differences but I haven't been able to figure out what they are.
And that is just fine. You presumably are all having fun and have found balance points that work for your hyper optimizing groups.
But the game is ALSO working as intended when a group of more casual players get together with less optimized characters or when (as in PFS) a random assortment of strangers get together with characters built with no knowledge at all of what else will be at the table.
Thank you, there is nothing wrong with a high powered /highly optimised game, or one with optional or variant rules. You just can't assume it's the default state of the game for people.
The issue with having a martial being buffed multiple times/ or enemies being debuffed multiple times before anyone else acts is while it is *a* solution to encounter, it's often not *the* best solution to encounters. For every time 'buff the VIP' works, there is often one where a sixth rank 'slow' or a 'chain lightning', or even something like a 'banishment' offers more impact or will speed up encounters faster than spending multiple turns buffing one party member.
That and providing average damage numbers without factoring in 'to-hit' is going to give misleading results. If someone is at a high-powered enough table that they ARE hitting 3-5 times a round, then that should be mentioned so that people can factor it in.
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Do you ever play rogues? Landing 3 attacks per round is the default for a rogue. They will usually get up to 4 to 5 attack attempts with haste and their reaction with debilitations.
We have exactly the same numbers so we agree on this.
Since our maths match, we can say that the kineticist is ahead if the rogue lands one hit, is on par with two hits and is ahead with three or more hits. Please notice that's exactly what I explained in my post.
The part where we don't agree is where your rogue usually lands 3 to 4 hits a round. I know your team likes to optimize, but when comparing classes and saying one is lacking, it's unfair to add a whole optimized buffing crew around you.
Sure, if the rogue is hasted (which, before level 13, only targets one character, so that's all a caster's turn to buff you) AND someone uses One for All to give him a circumstance bonus AND he gets an ally to flank with (even with gang up).
More importantly, in your scenario, the boss monster (who, since you are level 15, might be lvl 18-19) somehow lost initiative, didn't have enough perception to see you, cannot grab you, swallow you whole, teleport you away, pin you in place, have a dangerous aura, maze you, dominate you, confuse you, fly, burrow or drop you in one round with some kind of draconic fury.
Being right next to a rogue in order to opportune backstab is often a great place to be - it can also be a pretty s$*!ty place when you're a d8 martial in leather with (at lvl 15) expert in will and fortitude.
And sure, when the boss is tripped and perma-slowed by slow-spam and affected by Synesthesia, it gets much easier, but even so, the more I read your posts, the more I think that your team is really good at optimizing, but your DM also isn't optimizing the monsters half as much - and that's great, because this way you can all have a good time.
Besides, boss fights - with only one single opponent - are the easiest, since the action economy is so heavily skewed towards the players. If your DM wants to make things harder, let him add a couple high-level adds (and then kineticist pulls ahead again).
You'll probably tell me that I'm wrong, that I don't know what I'm talking about and that your DM isn't pulling punches, but the simple fact that you can use 3 actions to attack every round without somehow being disturbed is quite telling.
Back to the topic on track, let's assume everything you say, so you're buffed to the gills, the opponent is debuffed, you landed all your hits, and you dealt:
141 to 147 average damage for the rogue thief
82 to 83 average damage from the fire kineticist
Rogue is ahead if everything goes right, sure, but remember single target isn't the kineticist's forte. Add just one mob to the equation (a +2 boss and a +1 lieutenant, say) and the numbers look very different. Add more mobs and it's not even a match.
Like I said in my first post, the kineticist has more utility, is way tankier, is better at range and better at AOE. If he also were better in single target melee, that would be quite busted (and yet... ^^).
So, going back to your OP, kineticist damage is just fine (provided you're earth/fire, or maybe air but I'm less knowledgeable here).
Do you ever play rogues? Landing 3 attacks per round is the default for a rogue. They will usually get up to 4 to 5 attack attempts with haste and their reaction with debilitations.We have exactly the same numbers so we agree on this.
Since our maths match, we can say that the kineticist is ahead if the rogue lands one hit, is on par with two hits and is ahead with three or more hits. Please notice that's exactly what I explained in my post.
The part where we don't agree is where your rogue usually lands 3 to 4 hits a round. I know your team likes to optimize, but when comparing classes and saying one is lacking, it's unfair to add a whole optimized buffing crew around you.
Sure, if the rogue is hasted (which, before level 13, only targets one character, so that's all a caster's turn to buff you) AND someone uses One for All to give him a circumstance bonus AND he gets an ally to flank with (even with gang up).
More importantly, in your scenario, the boss monster (who, since you are level 15, might be lvl 18-19) somehow lost initiative, didn't have enough perception to see you, cannot grab you, swallow you whole, teleport you away, pin you in place, have a dangerous aura, maze you, dominate you, confuse you, fly, burrow or drop you in one round with some kind of draconic fury.
Being right next to a rogue in order to opportune backstab is often a great place to be - it can also be a pretty s@&!ty place when you're a d8 martial in leather with (at lvl 15) expert in will and fortitude.
And sure, when the boss is tripped and perma-slowed by slow-spam and affected by Synesthesia, it gets much easier, but even so, the more I read your posts, the more I think that your team is really good at optimizing, but your DM also isn't optimizing the monsters half as much - and that's great, because this way you can all have a good time.
Besides, boss fights - with only one single opponent - are the easiest, since the action economy is so heavily skewed towards the...
This is about single target damage. Which is why I started the thread.
There are a lot of single target fights in this game. They are often the most important fights in the game against boss monsters.
I already know you know this from experience: you can only hyper-optimize so many boss monster fights. I'm not talking about fights where I optimize a boss against the party. That optimization would also mean making them resistant or immune to fire causing the kineticist to use different impulses.
I'm talking in an average single target fight, the kineticist is lacking single target, higher damage or effective single target impulses. I think it feels pretty bad when it occurs.
They could use some better scaling single target impulses.
Blue Frog, I think you know the game well, I respect your opinions because they are usually backed by gameplay and experience with the class, not white room math.
This comparison is not just rogue versus kineticist because as YuriP have pointed out, it's not a great comparison. Rogue is built to do massive single target damage and kineticist not so much.
I think the kineticist while everyone is asking for more impulses needs a few single target tools that increase the damage a bit. It's not always fun to use these big, great looking AOE abilities in single target fights.
It's great to blow off a solar detonation or Ignite the Sun in an AOE fight where you have room and aren't going to hammer your allies, but it's not so fun when these are your best abilities against a single target boss that is surrounded by your allies.
I think the kineticist could use some more single target impulses with maybe some scaling riders that give them some tools to use in fights with tight quarters against a single or a few targets where AOE is overkill.
The kineticist has a lot of powerful AOE options. Their single target, more precise impulses are lacking. I think this is one area where the kineticist could use some more impulses to use when the AOE is too much and the blasts are too little.
Let me see if I can focus this a little more. The kineticist is fine for AOE damage. They have lots of useful and good options.
I think the kineticist needs more single target impulses. Even if two actions, impulses that hit a single target for good damage would be an impulse niche that would be highly useful.
Having nearly every decent attack impulse focused on AOE is overkill for AOE.
They put in the game a way to use AOE without hitting your allies called Safe Elements, but they made it cost one action while many of your major impulses are 3 action overflow impulses. So you can't even use Safe Elements with these impulses.
Safe Elements also feels like an action tax to be able to hit targets in smaller or single target fights. So you no longer are able to use a 2 action impulse and a blast to try to land a decent single target hit on a boss. You instead would have to use safe elements to drop a ignite the sun or scorching column in combination.
I think if they add more content for a kineticist, a few single target attack impulses for each element would be really useful to round out the kineticist abilities.
This post wasn't just about comparative damage, but out a lack of tools for the kineticist in smaller fights.