If you have a headband of vast intellect, and get feebleminded, what happens?
Can you, say, drink potions and such?
My thoughts.
Creatures with an Intelligence of 1 such as animals do eat and drink, in fact need to do so to stay alive. So yes a feebleminded character can eat and drink and is capable of swallowing which ought to include potions. Now it might be another thing to for such a character to understand why it needs to drink this potion vs eat that delicious apple pie or ingest the potion when not hungry. I don't recall anything within the rules that would indicate otherwise.
I also think the characters base Int score (and Cha) are dropped to 1, then modified by things (such as the Headband) from there. Likewise the skill ranks granted are still present. What the character can now accomplish with them is going to be, as I see it, much more instinctual and by rote perhaps. Nothing prevents a Ftr character, for example, who has dumped Int from using his 1 skill point a level from maxing out his Craft (Weaponsmithing) and crafting (perhaps rather savant like) a masterful and beautiful Great Sword.
Well, they can't use int/cha skills *at all* by definition, even if they have them. But things like headbands would leave you with enough +int to, say, intentionally drink a healing potion or something.
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I agree but the creature would still gain the benefits of the skills granted by the Headband is how I would do it. Animals even the lucky ones with 1 Int (vs 2) still get and can use a minimum of 1 skill point per HD. Those skills are not, for what its worth, skills based on either Int or Cha. And, of course, they still eat, breathe and sleep. They are a "step up" the intellect ladder from mindless, skill-less vermin with an Int of - . And even vermin eat, breathe and sleep. Basically I think regardless of wearing a headband or not a creature under the effects of Feeblemind is capable, if not desiring, of imbibing a potion.
The intent of the spell does, however, seem to be even more debilitating than simply having an Int 1 and Cha 1 since even animals with such scores have skills albeit very physical ones. Exactly how much more debilitating is left to the DM beyond the specific can't use skills, understand language etc.. Personally while it might not be RAW I'd lean more towards disallowing the character to use any Int or Cha based skills rather than a blanket no skills at all and leave the rest of the skills to a case by case of what is the player attempting to do.
Then again this is a very old spell from way back in the dark ages of D&D maybe its just been translated (gotten copy and pasted) once too often :)
Was this question prompted by something specific or just curiosity when you read the spell description?
I believe that's exactly what it does -- no int/cha skills. So they can't bluff, and they can't use craft, but they could use profession.
Reason it came up, we feebleminded an enemy sorcerer in combat, he wandered off before we could immediately deal, then he came back and teleported people out. But this may have been possible specifically because if he had some way to get healing, and he had a +int item, he could have been coherent enough to, say, drink a potion or something.
If an Int Boosting item is worn when you get feebleminded, you still drop to 1, assuming you have worn it for over 24 hours which causes the bonus to become "permanent". If you had a temporary effect in place or cast later (Fox's Cunning) that should continue affect you normally, giving you an int of 5.
Note the spell description specifically states a feebleminded character can not cast spells. This is not a function of being at Int 1, its a function of being feebleminded. Much like a feebleminded target can not understand language. They can neither speak it or understand when spoken to. Which amusingly enough renders them immune to language-dependant effects.
Your enemy sorceror either received healing, or is capable of teleporting as a spell-like ability and is also concerned enough about the people he went after to recall and focus on them through feeblemind. At my table, such an event would have a half-hour of speculation around it, from who healed him, to what race he really is, to why he cares enough about those people to focus through feeblemind.
We are sure he got healed, but we think he may have gotten healed by, say, a potion or something. (Not sure exactly what.)
I don't think that is how permanent bonuses work; even a permanent bonus is still not part of your "score", and is distinct in some ways from an inherent change. (e.g., permanent int bonuses don't give skill ranks, the items granting them give a boost to specific skills.)
The Black Bard wrote:
Note the spell description specifically states a feebleminded character can not cast spells. This is not a function of being at Int 1, its a function of being feebleminded. Much like a feebleminded target can not understand language. They can neither speak it or understand when spoken to. Which amusingly enough renders them immune to language-dependant effects.
Even a mental stat boost item of +6 still won't get you above a 7, which still puts you out of the spellcasting buisness.
LazarX wrote: The Black Bard wrote:
Note the spell description specifically states a feebleminded character can not cast spells. This is not a function of being at Int 1, its a function of being feebleminded. Much like a feebleminded target can not understand language. They can neither speak it or understand when spoken to. Which amusingly enough renders them immune to language-dependant effects.
Even a mental stat boost item of +6 still won't get you above a 7, which still puts you out of the spellcasting buisness. You don't need int or cha to cast divine spells. "Can't cast spells" is a distinct thing from any stat changes.
seebs wrote: LazarX wrote: The Black Bard wrote:
Note the spell description specifically states a feebleminded character can not cast spells. This is not a function of being at Int 1, its a function of being feebleminded. Much like a feebleminded target can not understand language. They can neither speak it or understand when spoken to. Which amusingly enough renders them immune to language-dependant effects.
Even a mental stat boost item of +6 still won't get you above a 7, which still puts you out of the spellcasting buisness. You don't need int or cha to cast divine spells. "Can't cast spells" is a distinct thing from any stat changes. You do if you're an oracle or paladin. The spell as originally designed in the days of Gygax, was an Anti-Magic-User spell for clerics (and I think Druids).
For the sake of clarity:
Feeblemind wrote: Target one creature
Target creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently. Still, it knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. A creature that can cast arcane spells, such as a sorcerer or a wizard, takes a –4 penalty on its saving throw.
There's 2 ways to interpret this.
1) all of those things happen because their int and cha scores drop to 1.
2) all of those things happen in spite of their int and cha dropping to 1.
I don't know if there's anything in the headband description that suggests it should be affected as well - I don't think that's the case (I've never thought about this before). The target of the feeblemind is the creature, not the item that's bestowing the bonus.
If that's the case, I would guess that the second interpretation is the only one that makes sense, and the headband's bonus would remain intact.
Ahh, right, oracles. But basically, there are obviously casters whose caster stat is totally unaffected by feeblemind. And yet, so far as I can tell, a cleric with a +6 int item, so he's got 7 int and 18 wis, can't cast spells or use any int/cha based skills while feebleminded, while a non-feebleminded cleric with an int of 8 (or even 6) and 18 wis can cast spells and use int-based skills anyway.
seebs wrote: Ahh, right, oracles. But basically, there are obviously casters whose caster stat is totally unaffected by feeblemind. And yet, so far as I can tell, a cleric with a +6 int item, so he's got 7 int and 18 wis, can't cast spells or use any int/cha based skills while feebleminded, while a non-feebleminded cleric with an int of 8 (or even 6) and 18 wis can cast spells and use int-based skills anyway. Yea, feeblemind is a b#~#$.
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