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That's the thing we're all ostensibly trying not to be.
Yesterday in the Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion channel, a thread was posted expressing consternation about a perceived lack of communication, spurned by the Runesmith/Necromancer playtest ending without a post about it on the website; though there were posts to Facebook and bluesky, and a concern for the company given the departure of certain developers.
It was not, general, a happy nor positive thread, though there was some push back trying to paint a somewhat brighter picture.
As of when I last read the thread, last night, the mood was dour. However, it had not devolved into personal attacks, hatred, or the like.
So I was very surprised this morning to find that thread deleted. Not shutdown, not locked, simply gone, as though it never existed.
Now, PF2 General may not have been the best venue for that thread, so I see every potential reason to move it somewhere more appropriate.
It's possible it might have devolved into something awful, as hinted at above. Perfectly reasonable to lock the thread and delete the hate.
But I think deleting the thread entirely goes too far, into the realm of over-moderation. I've done a bit of community moderating, certainly not on the scale of Paizo, though. One thing I've found pretty consistent is that the best way to upset people who are discussing something they don't like about an organizationis to shut down that conversation. It swiftly takes people from reasonable and upset/unhappy to furious and vindictive.
It's a great way to get people to leave your community forever.
It's kind of sardonically funny. The thread with a major theme of concerning lack of communication gets silently deleted.
I love Pathfinder. I quite like Paizo, generally. I disagree with the way they handled this situation and I think it does themselves more harm than good.
If you, fellow forum poster, feel a desire to post in this thread, I implore you to keep a civil tone. Open, honest, but self-restrained dialogue is incredibly important to me and is a benefit to all of us here.
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Most of that thread was forum-goers rampantly speculating that Paizo is circling the drain; I can see why the company wouldn't want that on their official forums.
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The intention of the thread was absolutely valid and civil! Unfortunately, literally over night, it had divulged to vindictive name calling and personal harassment, not to mention over 50 flags. I agree with you that if the original forum poster wishes to make a new thread where everyone keeps things civil, we welcome it!
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That is disappointing to hear. Thanks, Maya.
As I said in that thread: you're crushing it.
Thank you, Ectar! Thank you also for calmly voicing your opinions here! Have a good rest of your day and weekend if I don't see you around the forums before then. ^_^
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It makes sense to want to be careful with that thread, given where it was dipping into occasionally with the weekend ahead. I think a civil conversation/discussion about playtest communication might be a good idea before the next play test rolls around to make sure the larger, excited fan-base that likes to participate knows what to expect as far as when and where communication will come from around play tests.
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It makes sense to want to be careful with that thread, given where it was dipping into occasionally with the weekend ahead. I think a civil conversation/discussion about playtest communication might be a good idea before the next play test rolls around to make sure the larger, excited fan-base that likes to participate knows what to expect as far as when and where communication will come from around play tests.
The team is currently working on writing up a wrap-up in the form of a blog! It'll be posted soon!
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I'm very excited to hear the team's feedback on the playtest results! Shame to hear the thread went so bad.
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I'm very excited to hear the team's feedback on the playtest results! Shame to hear the thread went so bad.Please let us know how you feel about the feedback as well in the comments on the upcoming blog post!
Will do, thanks!
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That's the thing we're all ostensibly trying not to be.
Yesterday in the Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion channel, a thread was posted expressing consternation about a perceived lack of communication, spurned by the Runesmith/Necromancer playtest ending without a post about it on the website; though there were posts to Facebook and bluesky, and a concern for the company given the departure of certain developers.
It was not, general, a happy nor positive thread, though there was some push back trying to paint a somewhat brighter picture.
As of when I last read the thread, last night, the mood was dour. However, it had not devolved into personal attacks, hatred, or the like.
So I was very surprised this morning to find that thread deleted. Not shutdown, not locked, simply gone, as though it never existed.
Now, PF2 General may not have been the best venue for that thread, so I see every potential reason to move it somewhere more appropriate.
It's possible it might have devolved into something awful, as hinted at above. Perfectly reasonable to lock the thread and delete the hate.But I think deleting the thread entirely goes too far, into the realm of over-moderation. I've done a bit of community moderating, certainly not on the scale of Paizo, though. One thing I've found pretty consistent is that the best way to upset people who are discussing something they don't like about an organizationis to shut down that conversation. It swiftly takes people from reasonable and upset/unhappy to furious and vindictive.
It's a great way to get people to leave your community forever.It's kind of sardonically funny. The thread with a major theme of concerning lack of communication gets silently deleted.
I love Pathfinder. I quite like Paizo, generally. I disagree with the way they handled this situation and I think it does themselves more harm than good.
If you, fellow forum poster, feel a desire to post in this thread, I implore you to keep a civil tone. Open, honest, but...
I clearly havent been paying much attention which developers have left recently?
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I understand where the point is coming from regarding tone and toxicity, but there's something that feels kind of self serving about a handful of people showing up to threaten, insult and demean the OP of a thread and then the thread gets deleted because it was too toxic. Long term does that encourage more open and friendly discourse or does it just signal that there is an effective way to erase opinions we don't like?
Either way it's not really a huge deal, but feels a bit awkward especially in light of the subject matter.
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For me at least, as the remover of the post and a commenter here too, as I said above, I highly encourage the original poster to try a new thread with their opinion or even to convey those opinions to us in the comments of the upcoming blog post! It is very much encouraged. The removal of the post is more of a warning than anything. If the same people keep instigating fights on new threads as well, of course the OP would not be penalized (as long as they are not also contributing). At that point, it would be hypothetically more clear to see who is instigating the fights, and those users alone would be suspended from contributing to the forum as it is against our rules. If they would then continue to instigate fights after they return from suspension, they would be banned, as is our general process.
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A significant part of the reason I posted this thread here and not in the Pathfinder General Discussion is because I guessed that this forum gets significantly less traffic, so it'd be less likely to end up the same way as the original thread.
On top of it just being a more appropriate thread location, since it's more about Paizo than Pathfinder.
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It makes sense to want to be careful with that thread, given where it was dipping into occasionally with the weekend ahead. I think a civil conversation/discussion about playtest communication might be a good idea before the next play test rolls around to make sure the larger, excited fan-base that likes to participate knows what to expect as far as when and where communication will come from around play tests.The team is currently working on writing up a wrap-up in the form of a blog! It'll be posted soon!
That wrap up hasn’t been posted yet has it? I know this is a holiday, so I don’t expect any Paizo folks to answer, but if the wrap up has been posted and I missed it, I’d appreciate being pointed in the right direction!
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That wrap up hasn’t been posted yet has it? I know this is a holiday, so I don’t expect any Paizo folks to answer, but if the wrap up has been posted and I missed it, I’d appreciate being pointed in the right direction!
Nothing yet in the Paizo Blog. I looked at the average time to write a playtest wrap-up and 25 days is the average, so next week is more likely than this week.
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That wrap up hasn’t been posted yet has it? I know this is a holiday, so I don’t expect any Paizo folks to answer, but if the wrap up has been posted and I missed it, I’d appreciate being pointed in the right direction!Nothing yet in the Paizo Blog. I looked at the average time to write a playtest wrap-up and 25 days is the average, so next week is more likely than this week.
Thanks!
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That wrap up hasn’t been posted yet has it? I know this is a holiday, so I don’t expect any Paizo folks to answer, but if the wrap up has been posted and I missed it, I’d appreciate being pointed in the right direction!It makes sense to want to be careful with that thread, given where it was dipping into occasionally with the weekend ahead. I think a civil conversation/discussion about playtest communication might be a good idea before the next play test rolls around to make sure the larger, excited fan-base that likes to participate knows what to expect as far as when and where communication will come from around play tests.The team is currently working on writing up a wrap-up in the form of a blog! It'll be posted soon!
Hasn't been published yet, but it is actively being worked on as we speak!
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Hasn't been published yet, but it is actively being worked on as we speak!That wrap up hasn’t been posted yet has it? I know this is a holiday, so I don’t expect any Paizo folks to answer, but if the wrap up has been posted and I missed it, I’d appreciate being pointed in the right direction!It makes sense to want to be careful with that thread, given where it was dipping into occasionally with the weekend ahead. I think a civil conversation/discussion about playtest communication might be a good idea before the next play test rolls around to make sure the larger, excited fan-base that likes to participate knows what to expect as far as when and where communication will come from around play tests.The team is currently working on writing up a wrap-up in the form of a blog! It'll be posted soon!
Thank you very much for the update, Maya!
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It makes sense to want to be careful with that thread, given where it was dipping into occasionally with the weekend ahead. I think a civil conversation/discussion about playtest communication might be a good idea before the next play test rolls around to make sure the larger, excited fan-base that likes to participate knows what to expect as far as when and where communication will come from around play tests.
I think a civil conversation/discussion about playtest communication might be a good idea for the wrap-up in the form of a blog.
The team is currently working on writing up a wrap-up in the form of a blog! It'll be posted soon!
I think it would be useful for the wrap-up to address the lack of a welcome in the Playtest forum and the complete lack of developer input throughout the playtest. Yes, we were told how the playtest would run, and that there would be no detailed feedback during the process. But what we got was radio silence.
Obviously stans will decry such a statement as “baiting” and I get that the wrap-up is essentially about the feedback and general tone of developers’ thought moving forward, and not the place to discuss internal operational matters blah blah blah. I wholeheartedly disagree. It is entirely the place.
But as a member of the forum of more than 12 years I have seen my fair share of playtests. So it’s not like I’m a flash in the pan fanning flames of vitriol. I’m terse. I’m critical. But I’m civil and I care.
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I honestly haven't remembered much developer input or communication during playtests between the release and the wrapup outside of maybe a handful of comments. Seems like a bit of a molehill
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I honestly haven't remembered much developer input or communication during playtests between the release and the wrapup outside of maybe a handful of comments. Seems like a bit of a molehill
Sometimes people will post about a mere annoyance. The creator of the deleted thread was upset that he or she had lost track of the end date of the Impossible Playtest and missed filling out the surveys. Usually Paizo posts a reminder in the Paizo Blog, but they didn't during this playtest.
I enjoy seeing the developers talk about their ideas during a playtest. I wish they would do so more often. A handful of comments would be a handful of fun. For example, Maya Coleman's enthusiasm in comments here is delightful. My opinion is not worth starting a thread, but I will mention it in a comment <grin>.
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I think it would be useful for the wrap-up to address the lack of a welcome in the Playtest forum and the complete lack of developer input throughout the playtest. Yes, we were told how the playtest would run, and that there would be no detailed feedback during the process. But what we got was radio silence.
The blog will only contain how the dev team is considering all of your feedback from the playtest, but thank you for letting us know, in a very kind and civil manner I might add, that you want more communication from our team during playtests. We can't change the past, but we can consider your feedback as we move forward into the future. I will let the team know it's wanted, so thank you for being honest with us!
I honestly haven't remembered much developer input or communication during playtests between the release and the wrapup outside of maybe a handful of comments. Seems like a bit of a molehillSometimes people will post about a mere annoyance. The creator of the deleted thread was upset that he or she had lost track of the end date of the Impossible Playtest and missed filling out the surveys. Usually Paizo posts a reminder in the Paizo Blog, but they didn't during this playtest.
I enjoy seeing the developers talk about their ideas during a playtest. I wish they would do so more often. A handful of comments would be a handful of fun. For example, Maya Coleman's enthusiasm in comments here is delightful. My opinion is not worth starting a thread, but I will mention it in a comment <grin>.
This time, we didn't post a reminder in a blog, but we did post multiple reminders on all of our social media (Facebook, Instagram, X, and Bluesky), it was mentioned in a Paizo LIVE, we sent email reminders to all those subscribed to our newsletter, and we sent email reminders about the playtest to all our customers. We thought this would generally cover the bases, but it's good to know from you all here that a reminder in the blogs would have also been helpful!
Also, thank you for your compliment! ^_^
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This time, we didn't post a reminder in a blog, but we did post multiple reminders on all of our social media (Facebook, Instagram, X, and Bluesky), it was mentioned in a Paizo LIVE, we sent email reminders to all those subscribed to our newsletter, and we sent email reminders about the playtest to all our customers. We thought this would generally cover the bases, but it's good to know from you all here that a reminder in the blogs would have also been helpful!
Add me to the list of people who don't follow Paizo (or most any companies) on social media, don't subscribe to any newsletters, don't watch Paizo streams (except for the occasional panel at major conventions), and unsubscribe to as many corporate email lists as I can possibly manage. But I DO visit the forums regularly, usually several times a day.
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Yeah, the forums and the blog are my main venue of information about Paizo stuff. Although I've begun to hang out on Reddit the last year as well, though mostly as a reader, rather than someone who posts regularly.
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Yeah, same here. I actively avoid using Facebook, Instagram, X, and Bluesky, even if I do have accounts there. As for the Paizo newsletter, most of the time it is so full of nothingburgers or is info that comes a few days later than the blog, I don't read them because I just forget that it occasionally has an occasional nugget of info (plus just going down a list like that means I will often miss the one thing I might care about since I just skim it quickly, if I check it at all). So, I end up just checking in on the blog manually on a near daily basis. The blog has always been more worthwhile in my experience.
Except for this past year or so, wherein it seems like it has had less and less stuff in it over time. But, I'm a creature of habit and increasing the number of websites and social media platforms I check every day or two is not something I want to do. There is just too much out there. I feel like my dyslexic eyes already bleed too much; I don't want to add more things that I have to pay attention to - It's already a heavily curated checklist and I don't have the time or inclination to add to it, nor do I want to have to curate it again.
To my annoyance, most companies whose products I care about advertise on all their platforms to the point that I get to see their messages multiple times as it is. It seems strange to me that Paizo is the only one of those companies I care about that I have noticed does not send their ads and messages to all their info outlets.
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The intention of the thread was absolutely valid and civil! Unfortunately, literally over night, it had divulged to vindictive name calling and personal harassment, not to mention over 50 flags. I agree with you that if the original forum poster wishes to make a new thread where everyone keeps things civil, we welcome it!
Necro, but wouldn't it make more sense to delete the worse of the offending messages, post an explanation for how a new thread woul need to be handled, and lock the thread? Mass removal of an entire thread is simply not a good way to handle things.
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Necro, but wouldn't it make more sense to delete the worse of the offending messages, post an explanation for how a new thread woul need to be handled, and lock the thread? Mass removal of an entire thread is simply not a good way to handle things.
That is actually part of the plan for future along with an updated version of our Community Guidelines! As you know, we're updating our website, and with it will come some moderation changes as well.
In the case of the thread that's being referred to here, I'm not sure if you saw it when it happened, but it had gotten to a point where every single reply had insults and was flagged 2-6 times, so I ended up having to remove two whole pages of comments that went against our guidelines. It was an extreme case that hadn't happened before, and also hasn't happened since, which is great! If it were something that we did regularly, I would completely agree with you. Lucky for us and the community, it was an outlier.
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I've moderated groups and sometimes it is more practical to remove or lock a thread than attempt to moderate a torrent of uncivil posts. There's not an unlimited supply of time/labor to make things "perfect".
IMO Paizo customer service has been on the lighter side of moderation (2009-2021 as I am not active on the PF2 side). It is heavier in the PFS discord group. Reddit... lol... *no comment*
For the readers here - there are internet readers/crawlers (advanced feed reader) and they have filters. "Paizo Campaign Tools" is a simple Firefox option for these boards. You should check them out.
Locking is fine. Deleting a good thread turned bad shouldn't happen.
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Locking is fine. Deleting a good thread turned bad shouldn't happen.I've moderated groups and sometimes it is more practical to remove or lock a thread than attempt to moderate a torrent of uncivil posts. There's not an unlimited supply of time/labor to make things "perfect".
IMO Paizo customer service has been on the lighter side of moderation (2009-2021 as I am not active on the PF2 side). It is heavier in the PFS discord group. Reddit... lol... *no comment*
For the readers here - there are internet readers/crawlers (advanced feed reader) and they have filters. "Paizo Campaign Tools" is a simple Firefox option for these boards. You should check them out.
For the record, it wasn't deleted completely. It was just hidden to prevent continued anger from all sides.
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It wasn't a good thread gone bad
I agree. I honestly wouldn't call it this either. I stand by several commenters had valid points, and I plan to take them on. It was a thread with a valid concern that turned persistently uncivil at the other commenters and completely detracted from the point of the thread.
That being said (and this is not directed at you, Cori, but in general), let's not turn this thread into a recounting of what happened. As I stated above, it was an extreme case that hasn't happened before that or since, and my hats off to the community for that, genuinely.