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Let's not romanticize bandits here; they're murderous thugs by default.
Of course that's from an overhead view which PCs do not have. Any "bandits" PCs might kill may be rebels like Robin Hood or only refugees, maybe squatters (original owners?) rich people wish removed. Or actual bandits out of desperation who would live moral lives if able, quite redeemable, or who only target evil merchants/governments much like many PCs might do. And look how fringe groups have played a part in the current wars, siding with more mainstream factions. Hmm.
Which is to say, killing generic bandits kinda is like killing enemy combatants, keeping one's territory safe. But behind both labels there might be much more depth, especially with forced conscription and the fog of war.
And when you have to invade the other's territory and bully their folks into giving you food, things will become much more morally fuzzier than when you're just defending yourself from an attack.
Maybe we will have Agents of Edgewatch's trick of non-lethal damage by default. Wouldn't war be fun then ?
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Or at least force them to back both sides, while keeping their contributions to Andoran and the Hellbreaker's League clandestine.
This is probably the limit to which they want to be involved anyway. Ravounel's state is not built to sustain anything like a total war, and its army is not built to do open offensive operations. Bunch of supplies disappearing through Dreamgate to Breechill though? Totally doable and completely deniable. They could have come from the Mwangi Expanse, or from Katapesh. And no, you can't send inspectors to check, that would be in violation of your treaty obligations wit Hell.
Let's not romanticize bandits here; they're murderous thugs by default.
Of course that's from an overhead view which PCs do not have. Any "bandits" PCs might kill may be rebels like Robin Hood or only refugees, maybe squatters (original owners?) rich people wish removed. Or actual bandits out of desperation who would live moral lives if able, quite redeemable, or who only target evil merchants/governments much like many PCs might do. And look how fringe groups have played a part in the current wars, siding with more mainstream factions. Hmm.
Which is to say, killing generic bandits kinda is like killing enemy combatants, keeping one's territory safe. But behind both labels there might be much more depth, especially with forced conscription and the fog of war.
And when you have to invade the other's territory and bully their folks into giving you food, things will become much more morally fuzzier than when you're just defending yourself from an attack.
Maybe we will have Agents of Edgewatch's trick of non-lethal damage by default. Wouldn't war be fun then ?
Oh my, hadn't even considered the traditional pillaging necessary to maintain an army en route. Does magic fulfill these logistical needs enough? Doubt it could at scale, but what scale are we talking about if high-level squads have the most effect? (Or do they what with Troops being a thing?) I doubt the PCs will resort to this, but they'll be bearing the same banner as those that do. These "bandits" might simply be defending themselves from starvation caused by food "procurement" by armies.
Ugh. War, a cinematic as it is, makes for a tough topic to tackle in an AP. Shouldn't romanticize, should they, yet authenticity goes grim fast.
ETA: Paizo did handle the deprivations and fatigue of war well in the Worldwound era. Even with its cleaner delineation of good & evil, the good side had morally gray tones and tactics, plus psychological strain.
I was thinking about Cheliax's past, when Chaos ran amok. I believe Asmodeus was behind that as a false flag to draw Cheliax to his banner of order, "Our evil's more stable." Yet maybe chaotic forces had reigned in Cheliax and, with the Worldwound gone, wish to reestablish that former beachhead on Golarion. A major kinda-divine war would be the sort of chaos that would incite that. Of course that might be more a Four Riders venue...or all three in a stew. Hmm. Add in desperation or existential need and we might get Gates, maybe even dimensional rifts with enough divinities and their artifacts involved.
Plus, as I believe someone mentioned before, Tar-Baphon should relish such death as a power source/breeding ground for his necromancy. Whether the supra-genius sowed the seeds or not, he'll surely capitalize on its fruits. Heck, maybe the factions of this war will need to make amends to ally against the greater evil they've empowered further.
While APs have shaken the setting before or saved Golarion behind the scenes, it feels like (w/o significant investigation on my part) the most recent ones are doling out destruction. Maybe heading toward a climax? (Or maybe winging it like Lost? Just keep adding on threads. Lol.)
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I would also remember that while Ravounel may be more ideologically inclined to side with Andoran and the Hellbreaker's League, they are nonetheless obligated to side militarily with Cheliax if called upon as a condition of their independence.
Obviously it's a moot point if Ravounel believes that siding against Cheliax would finish off House Thrune once and for all, but were Abby to call them in early enough and the potential threat of failing to honor their alliance dire enough, I suspect she could effectively lock them in on the Chelaxian side of the conflict.
One imagines that Ravounel will drag their feet as much as possible when it comes to military aid they're obligated to give by treaty. Like genuinely they're helped here by the fact that they're not likely to march troops across the mountains and it's difficult to sail to Isger.
But if Cheliax needs more salt, fish, silver, or textiles I'm sure Ravounel is happy to help.
Oh, I have every confidence that any aid Ravounel provides to Cheliax will be the absolute minimum that they can get away with - I'm just not convinced Cheliax would ever let them get away with anything short of putting Ravounel bodies on the field against Andoran.
It may be difficult to get soldiers over the mountains or around the coast to the Inner Sea, but it's not impossible, particularly if Cheliax (or even Nidal) is "helping" to facilitate troop transport.
Or at least force them to back both sides, while keeping their contributions to Andoran and the Hellbreaker's League clandestine.This is probably the limit to which they want to be involved anyway. Ravounel's state is not built to sustain anything like a total war, and its army is not built to do open offensive operations. Bunch of supplies disappearing through Dreamgate to Breechill though? Totally doable and completely deniable. They could have come from the Mwangi Expanse, or from Katapesh. And no, you can't send inspectors to check, that would be in violation of your treaty obligations wit Hell.
Last we heard, Paizo isn't planning on Alseta's Ring being a factor in the war, with the default assumption being that the heroes of Age of Ashes found a way to "shut it down" sometime between the end of that AP and whenever they left Breachill.
If it were active, it'd certainly be a strategic concern, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume it's working in some scenarios and not others. Until we get word that it's been reactivated, I don't think we can assume Ravounel, or anyone else, has an aiudara gate with a direct, working connection to Isger.
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Last we heard, Paizo isn't planning on Alseta's Ring being a factor in the war, with the default assumption being that the heroes of Age of Ashes found a way to "shut it down" sometime between the end of that AP and whenever they left Breachill.
If it were active, it'd certainly be a strategic concern, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume it's working in some scenarios and not others. Until we get word that it's been reactivated, I don't think we can assume Ravounel, or anyone else, has a working aiudara gate with a direct connection to Isger.
Oh, well then Ravounel is a complete non-factor, whatever side it's on, and ought not to be discussed further. The only reason for Cheliax to expend tremendous resources for the sake of mobilizing a militarily insignificant number of poorly-trained, worse-equipped, inexperienced, and otherwise ineffective soldiers across half a continent is petty cruelty, and while Cheliax has that in spades, questions of victory or defeat really should put that to the side in short order. Within the first few months or weeks.
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Oh, well then Ravounel is a complete non-factor, whatever side it's on, and ought not to be discussed further. The only reason for Cheliax to expend tremendous resources for the sake of mobilizing a militarily insignificant number of poorly-trained, worse-equipped, inexperienced, and otherwise ineffective soldiers across half a continent is petty cruelty, and while Cheliax has that in spades, questions of victory or defeat really should put that to the side in short order. Within the first few months or weeks.Last we heard, Paizo isn't planning on Alseta's Ring being a factor in the war, with the default assumption being that the heroes of Age of Ashes found a way to "shut it down" sometime between the end of that AP and whenever they left Breachill.
If it were active, it'd certainly be a strategic concern, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume it's working in some scenarios and not others. Until we get word that it's been reactivated, I don't think we can assume Ravounel, or anyone else, has a working aiudara gate with a direct connection to Isger.
Petty cruelty, sure.
It also keeps as much of Ravounel's military as they can get trapped on the frontlines far from their homeland while pitting them against their ideological allies, helping to poison any relationship between Ravounel and Andoran, all while ensuring Ravounel can't backstab them at an opportune moment by striking into the Chelaxian heartland.
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all while ensuring Ravounel can't backstab them at an opportune moment by striking into the Chelaxian heartland.An impossibility about which no planners in Egorian rationally ought to be worried.
The point is not that Ravounel is a serious military threat to Cheliax.
The point is that Ravounel supporting Andoran and Isgeri rebels is an existential threat to House Thrune, given that even an accidental violation of the Kintargo Contract could see Cheliax's alliance with Hell go up in smoke.
Finding ways to antagonize Cheliax to try and bait some hot-headed, glory-seeking border commander into fighting back probably isn't worth the risk if Ravounel has to face the full wrath of a furious House Thrune alone. But with the bulk of the Chelaxian military locked in a war with Andoran and Isgeri rebels on the eastern front? When they could all but win the war for Andoran with a single altercation that goes "wrong" and bring down House Thrune once and for all?
If Ravounel's left alone to do as they wish, there is no reason for them not to back Andoran the moment they see an opportunity. Cheliax has the option to call them in against Andoran, driving a rift between two states that have every reason to ally and no love for House Thrune.
Besides, if Cheliax isn't going to call upon Ravounel's military aid in a war against Andoran that basically everyone sees as a potentially existential threat to House Thrune, then pray tell, under what circumstances would they call upon them?
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And why couldn't you have? (Especially unwittingly.)
What would (expected) cannibalism add to an AP?For II, would help with resources.
And part of the point being that not all Evil acts are selfish and/or destructive.
Walkena got stronger because of the Godsrain and used it to strengthen his army according to War of Immortals.And his problems could be similarly empowered.
Granted, maybe he is meant to somewhat become an equivalent of the Whispering Tyrant in Garund.
Garund already has Geb!
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Besides, if Cheliax isn't going to call upon Ravounel's military aid in a war against Andoran that basically everyone sees as a potentially existential threat to House Thrune, then pray tell, under what circumstances would they call upon them?
They wouldn't and shouldn't. Ravounel's army, because of its composition, lack of training, lack of equipment, its units' cohesive principle (such as it is), and its leaders' lack of commitment to the overall cause, is anywhere from useless to actively counterproductive to deploy anywhere, because its units are more likely to dissolve, desert, or defect than they are to hold their position or advance under orders. Any place it is deployed is therefore a weakness the enemy is bound to exploit. Forcing it to fight by means of blocking detachments also weakens the overall effort, since those detachments could have simply been deployed to the front with less trouble and more effectiveness.
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Besides, if Cheliax isn't going to call upon Ravounel's military aid in a war against Andoran that basically everyone sees as a potentially existential threat to House Thrune, then pray tell, under what circumstances would they call upon them?They wouldn't and shouldn't. Ravounel's army, because of its composition, lack of training, lack of equipment, its units' cohesive principle (such as it is), and its leaders' lack of commitment to the overall cause, is anywhere from useless to actively counterproductive to deploy anywhere, because its units are more likely to dissolve, desert, or defect than they are to hold their position or advance under orders. Any place it is deployed is therefore a weakness the enemy is bound to exploit. Forcing it to fight by means of blocking detachments also weakens the overall effort, since those detachments could have simply been deployed to the front with less trouble and more effectiveness.
Ah, so that provision of the non-aggression treaty between Ravounel and Cheliax was a complete waste of paper both in-universe and IRL?
They may not have much value to Cheliax from a military strategy perspective, but the realpolitik suggests to me that there's good reason to at least try to keep Ravounel and Andoran from teaming up when there's otherwise no real reason for them not to do so.
I would assume that the decision-makers in Ravounel since their independence have realized that both because of their geographical positioning and because of their treaty obligations to Cheliax who is most likely to go to war with Andoran through Isger have decided to invest very little in "ground troops" and have mostly spent on building up their Navy.
So this could put them in conflict with the impressive Andoran Naval forces, Ravounel does need to sail a long way to even get to the Arch of Aroden let alone to Andoran. I imagine they'll send ships, but are probably less well-suited to actual weapons of war than what Cheliax already has so are mostly going to have to serve in a supporting capacity.