It's been a month now that I'm playing an animist and I'm having a blast (haha).
I know a lot of players consider blasting suboptimal, but it's still a viable playstyle, and animist made it even more viable.
DISCLAIMER: This is just whiteroom talk. Of course, no turn will ever be optimal.
Let's see what you get as an animist
- Earth's bile, first and foremost, best DPS for one action in the game (and not only that but it's AOE, and you get persistent damage on a failure)
- Fireball, widely considered to be one of the kings of AOE damage.
This alone makes it really powerful:
At level 5, that's 6d6 + 4d4 (+ persistent) damage. That's an average of 31 + 2 persistent.
The contenders for best blasters so far were Fire (or metal) elemental sorcerer, and psychic.
- A fire elemental sorcerer can output 6d6+3 AOE damage, deal +3 damage on one target, then use his last action for elemental toss (3d8 against AC, which is iffy) or 1-action Force barrage (2d4+2 autohit). That's 24 average AOE damage, +10 average damage on a target with FB or +16,5 on one target if elemental toss hits.
--> Much worse on AOE, a little bit better on one of the targets with FB, significantly better on one target if elemental toss hits.
An oscillating wave psychic with psyche unleashed (so on second round, with its own set of problems) can use fireball and psy burst, and could even have a 2-motes wheel active thanks to a first round spell.
That makes a very respectable 3d4+2 psy burst followed by a 6d6+6+3 fireball. So 30 AOE damage, and 9,5 more damage on a single target.
--> Almost comparable AOE, and more damage on a single target.
So, it looks like so far, animist comes ahead on AOE damage, even comparing the best turn a psychic could have.
But wait, if we agree to give a prep turn to the psychic, then we should give one to the animist. Enters channeler's stance.
Turn 1 Animist: Channeler's stance + Fireball = 6d6+3 damage, average 24 AOE
Turn 2 Animist: Fireball + Earth's bile = 6d6+3+4d4+3 damage, average 37 AOE
Turn 1 Psychic: Fireball + whatever ? + entropic wheel, average 21 AOE
Turn 2 Psychic: As we saw, 30 AOE + 9,5 on a single target.
Turn 1 Fire Sorcerer: Fireball + FB = average 24 AOE + 10 on one target
Turn 2 Fire sorcerer: Fireball + FB = average 24 AOE + 10 on one target
So on turn 2, the animist looks even sexier now. And:
1) The stance will be active the whole fight, so next turns will benefit as well
2) Earth's bile can be activated over and over, while Fire Sorc or Psychic have to spend resources to use that third action.
CONCLUSION
- In easy fights where it's all decided in one or two turns, don't enter channel stance: you'll outDPS everybody anyway.
- In hard fights that might last longer, enter channel stance: you'll outDPS AND outlast everybody anyway.
But that's not all. What if you lose initiative and the opponents are already in your midst ? Fire sorcerer is screwed, Psychic is screwed. But not you, because you're a divine caster, remember ? Starting at level 7, you get Divine Wrath, which after remaster is probably one of the best blasting spells ever (big friendly AOE with sickened). And you can usually still get one or two targets per round in your Earth's bile. So yeah, you can still blast like the blaster you are instead of switching to striking/debuffing.
"Wait, Blue_Frog, what if you have to move ? Then you still need to sustain Earth's bile and you lose this edge against other casters !"
True, true.
Let's assume you have to move turn 1. You can move and fireball, doing as much as a psychic and only 3 less than a sorcerer.
Now the harder part. What if you have to move turn 2 or 3, when Earth's bile is already cast ? A regular caster can go move + spell, you have to go move + sustain + 3rd action, so you might lose some damage.
- If it's later in the fight, your opponents are usually in melee, so most casters cannot blast but YOU can. See how special you are ?
- If you really need to cast a spell, you can drop Earth's Bile and cast it again later for one focus point. Because here's the funny thing: even without the sustain, most caster would KILL to get Earth's Bile, a one-action AOE with respectable damage.
- If you're level 10 or more, just quicken your spell. Because you're awesome, and you can do it multiple times per day.
TLDR: Animists are kings of AOE damage, so far ahead in every situation that it's not even funny.
The ONLY thing that will cut us short is fire resistance/immunity. It's pretty widespread, so it WILL come up. But in such a case, you still deal ok damage with earth's bile, and hopefully you attuned another apparition like Lurker that gives you other options.
Very true, I got carried away in my example.
Gone are the days of a weak divine list though and Divine Wrath,, Vampiric exsanguination, Holy Hand Grenade Thingy are all perfectly serviceable blasting spells. VE is harder to aim and DW is 1,5 less damage per level (and not energy) but friendly and less resistable.
I feel like it doesn't perform as well in practice as shatter mind psychic's xd10 60ft no friendly fire cone AoE 3x per fight, every fight, with optional psy burst and the 2x unleash bonus on two of the castings with potential 4th blast with strain mind.
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I feel like it doesn't perform as well in practice as shatter mind psychic's xd10 60ft no friendly fire cone AoE 3x per fight, every fight, with optional psy burst and the 2x unleash bonus on two of the castings with potential 4th blast with strain mind.
Probably not in raw damage. But the animist has better hit points and better armor and much more flexibility
Not being as squishy is a pretty significant benefit for a blaster. And that added flexibility can really help in actual play.
I feel like it doesn't perform as well in practice as shatter mind psychic's xd10 60ft no friendly fire cone AoE 3x per fight, every fight, with optional psy burst and the 2x unleash bonus on two of the castings with potential 4th blast with strain mind.
Shatter mind's psychic was my favorite before Animist and it stays a close second to me.
It's still less damage than Divine Wrath + a well-placed Earth's Bile, but I agree it's more sustainable since you don't spend spell slots.
What makes me rate it a bit lower is that it's a mental effect, which means most undeads, plants, constructs are a big no-no, and it's a bit redundant with the occult list.
Also, first round doesn't get a damage bonus, and fourth/fifth round have an annoying random factor.
For characters who actually use Cast a Spell to do blasting with...? Maybe.
I don't think they do blasting as well as a Kineticist though. Definitely not during a second or third combat of the day after an Animist has used some spell slots.
Blasting in PF2 is not suboptimal. Who considers it that? Blasting in PF2, at least at high level, is absolutely brutal.
I could see low level blasting being suboptimal. Once you get 5th level and higher spells, blasting is absolutely the best way to deal with groups of monsters. It wrecks them and nothing does more damage. You get even a couple of casters dropping Howling Blizzards, Chain Lightnings or Eclipse Bursts at high level, it's over for the enemy group. Nightmare damage martials can't touch.
Now with clerics being excellent blasters, blasting is highly optimal at high level. It's even desirable to have at least two blasters once you're passing level 9 all the way up.
Prior to level 9 and lower, I would say supporting your martials might be a bit better with an occasional fireball. But at those high levels blasting is highly optimal and a total wrecking ball on groups.
The animist is good at blasting? That will make them a good high level class.
Is the animist the best blaster in PF2E ?
No.
The Divine list is not incredible for blasting, you're looking for the Primal or Arcane List to maximize it. And Earth's Bile has a 30ft. range which is killing as blasting happens during the first rounds mostly.
The Animist is actually not even a blaster in my opinion. I've played numerous blasters and the Animist will have hard time competing with just a basic Primal/Arcane Sorcerer or even an Oracle with Foretell Harm or a Primal Witch.
The Animist can be many things but in my opinion it can't really be a blaster.
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The Divine list is not incredible for blasting, you're looking for the Primal or Arcane List to maximize it. And Earth's Bile has a 30ft. range which is killing as blasting happens during the first rounds mostly.
Well, the animist has access to some arcane/primal staples.
And also, what you said used to be true, but isn't anymore. The divine spell list has a lot of blasting spells.- Before level 5, Sudden Blight is one of the only effective AOE spells, and it's on the Divine list.
- As was discussed earlier, Divine Wrath is probably one of the best blasting spells, and it's exclusive to the Divine List. Why one of the best ? Because, although you lose 1,5 damage per spell level, you CAN actually blast after turn one (which is usually not possible with a fireball, and usually cannot encompass every opponent) AND you sicken opponents on a save, which both helps your team AND you in future rounds.
- Inner Torrent is so effective at higher level that a lot of people expect it to be errata'd. Guess what, it's on the divine list, NOT on the primal or arcane one.
- Against fiends or undead (which are not that niche, and that you actually encounter a lot during most AP), Holy Cascade is THE most damaging AOE in the game, and it's somewhat party-friendly since they only take the bludgeoning damage. And it also heightens very well - and is divine only.
- Vampire Exsanguination deals as much damage as a fireball AND gives you a hefty number of temp HP, at the price of being less easy to aim - but it's still there - and it's not primal.
- Divine armageddon is 20d6 damage against evil in a 60 feet burst.
So yeah, what does Arcane or Primal have that would be more blaster-y ? It’s not a taunt but a real question.
- Against Fiends or undead, divine wins out no contest.
- Against other opponents, divine either wins out or ties.
Like you, I played a lot of blasters. I even wrote the wizard guide to spell blending. But now, I sure miss my divine spells whenever I play another tradition blaster.
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Small correction: we no longer expect inner radiance torrent to be errata'd because it was just errata'd this week. RIP (radiance in peace)
Chain Lightning.There are lots of others but that is my personal favourite (partly because I actually get to see and use a Level 6 spell a lot)
I agree, it's pretty awesome.
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So yeah, what does Arcane or Primal have that would be more blaster-y ? It’s not a taunt but a real question.Chain Lightning.
There are lots of others but that is my personal favourite (partly because I actually get to see and use a Level 6 spell a lot)
Unless you win initiative this is likely your only blasting spell. If enemies aren't trying to flank or get in around your group then they should be spread out to make aoe's difficult. CL gets around all the typical blasting problems that white room never accounts for, so should always be on your list. On the other hand, hitting your rogue is usually worth it so sometimes targeting isn't a huge deal.
Ah yeah, initiative is another reason why the animist is a contender for best blaster.
Between Wisdom as a main stat with eventually an apex item and Medium's Awareness, an animist that takes Canny Acumen for perception (and improved init of course) is the highest Init in the game, which helps A LOT for blasting before the lines move and is a net DPS gain.
Divine list doesn't start to hammer blasting until 4th level spells so around level 7. Divine Wrath is like fireball for divine. After that, it keeps getting better.
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Divine list doesn't start to hammer blasting until 4th level spells so around level 7. Divine Wrath is like fireball for divine. After that, it keeps getting better.
I love Divine Wrath and it is an excellent spell but it does have one serious drawback as a blasting spell. It only does full damage (with some nasty riders, admittedly) on a critical failure.
Since AoE blasting spells tend to be used on mooks this is worse than it first appears. If you throw something like a fireball and catch several mooks you can very often get at least one to crit fail. Even at mid to high tiers a crit fail from a mook can be damaging enough that they can be taken down by a martials attack routine (or maybe two).
One really nice thing that the animist has going for them is that they have access to BOTH Divine Wrath AND Fireball. And some nice control spells like Wall of Stone.
I'm NOT saying that the Animist is the best blaster. I think there are too many campaign and party issues that affect things for ANY class to be "the best blaster". But I do think it is a very good blaster, definitely a top tier blaster.
And also, what you said used to be true, but isn't anymore. The divine spell list has a lot of blasting spells.
If you want to blast as a divine caster you don't have much choice. Against Undeads and Fiends, you're really good with Holy Light and Holy Cascade (but only at high level, it starts rather average in damage). Divine Wrath is nice because it's super easy to target a lot of enemies but it does quite low damage. Once you have a few Sickened enemies casting it again is not incredible. Remember that on top of being a d10 spell (so 20% less damaging than a 2d6 one) it targets Fortitude which is universally high.
For Arcane and Primal, what you want is:
- Force Barrage and Sudden Bolt: The anti boss killers, especially at low level when it's the most important. As a Divine caster you have nothing to blast bosses (unless they are Undead/Fiends).
- Lightning Bolt: Extremely easy to position (you can always target at least 2 enemies) and damage is rather high. It's the most basic blast spell, often overlooked.
- Fireball is a staple obviously.
- Chain Lightning is absolutely gorgeous at high level. It wrecks everything.
- Vision of Death: This spell is gorgeous. It has a strong debuff component but the blasting is not bad so I think it fits into this list.
- Cone of Cold. Compared to Vampiric Exsanguination, it's one level lower and has double the cone size. Hard to position but very potent.
As a Divine caster, you are in general 1-2 ranks late compared to a Primal/Arcane caster. It's especially problematic at low level where you have to wait forever to finally call yourself a blaster.
Another drawback of the Animist is that it's a prepared caster. Playing a blaster means casting the same spells over and over again, with a need to sometimes switch for Resistance/Weakness purposes. Being a prepared caster makes the all exercise much harder than as a Spontaneous caster.
And also, Earth's Bile is not incredible. It's really the range that kills you, 30ft. is bad and will push you to move, killing your damage output. Most blasters use bonuses to damage that are either passive (Sorcerous Potency) or free actions (Foretell Harm), keeping your last action for either a blast Focus Spell or moving to position yourself. So as an Animist your damage output is circumstancial, not as a Sorcerer or Oracle.
Overall, you won't be a strong blaster with an Animist. You won't be bad but if you expect to carry your team through damage it'll be hard. As I said, for me the Animist is not a blaster, it's one of the few roles it can't really cover better than any other caster.
To be more precise: I have an Angelic Sorcerer of Sarenrae, a (pre remaster) Tempest Oracle and a Wilding Steward Witch, all 3 built as blasters.
My Sorcerer blasting ability is due to a combination of Fireball, Wall of Fire, Divine Wrath and True Striked Holy Light. So half of it comes from spells the Animist will have hard time casting multiple times per day.
My Tempest Oracle used to blast everything with Lightning Bolt. Compared to Divine Wrath, it deals d12 damage, is one rank lower, targets a more interesting save and a 20ft. burst that ignore allies is not massively easier to position than a 120ft. line.
My Witch uses everything the Primal list gives her and there are really tons of gems in there. She also uses her Familiar for blasting. But I've found that being a prepared caster makes the all exercise much harder than with my spontaneous blasters.
If you want to blast as a divine caster you don't have much choice. Against Undeads and Fiends, you're really good with Holy Light and Holy Cascade (but only at high level, it starts rather average in damage). Divine Wrath is nice because it's super easy to target a lot of enemies but it does quite low damage. Once you have a few Sickened enemies casting it again is not incredible. Remember that on top of being a d10 spell (so 20% less damaging than a 2d6 one) it targets Fortitude which is universally high.
Fair point.
For Arcane and Primal, what you want is:
- Force Barrage and Sudden Bolt: The anti boss killers, especially at low level when it's the most important. As a Divine caster you have nothing to blast bosses (unless they are Undead/Fiends).
Well, I specifically said "blasting", which to me is different than "striking". Blasting is dealing mass AOE damage to many opponents at once, while striking is focusing on one target.
The animist is an awesome blaster but I agree with you, it's not a striker (unless specifically built for it through shapeshifting and/or Witness, and even then it's somewhat lacking).
- Lightning Bolt: Extremely easy to position (you can always target at least 2 enemies) and damage is rather high. It's the most basic blast spell, often overlooked.
It's easy to use... if you're ok to move to position yourself well, which isn't a given since you might need that third action for something else. It's good damage at 3rd level but hightens a bit less than the usual 2d6/level.
- Fireball is a staple obviously.
- Chain Lightning is absolutely gorgeous at high level. It wrecks everything.
Agreed.
- Vision of Death: This spell is gorgeous. It has a strong debuff component but the blasting is not bad so I think it fits into this list.
It's more of a striking than a blasting spell. But if we're talking about striking spells, Spirit Blast is 4d6 more damage (no debuff and fort save, though).
- Cone of Cold. Compared to Vampiric Exsanguination, it's one level lower and has double the cone size. Hard to position but very potent.
Well, sure, but it's been erased from the remaster and replaced by Howling Blizzard - easier to position, but basic 2d6/level damage.
As a Divine caster, you are in general 1-2 ranks late compared to a Primal/Arcane caster. It's especially problematic at low level where you have to wait forever to finally call yourself a blaster.
It's only a problem at level 5-6 where other blasters get fireball/lightning bolt while you're still stuck with sudden blight unless fighting undeads.
And also, Earth's Bile is not incredible. It's really the range that kills you, 30ft. is bad and will push you to move, killing your damage output. Most blasters use bonuses to damage that are either passive (Sorcerous Potency) or free actions (Foretell Harm), keeping your last action for either a blast Focus Spell or moving to position yourself. So as an Animist your damage output is circumstancial, not as a Sorcerer or Oracle.
Wow, I mostly agreed with you on your other points, but I totally disagree here. 30 feet is usually plenty since most mobs will engage you (or your group will) at one time or another. Sure, you might not have the range first round, but that's when you can go into channeler's stance and throw a fireball.
So in rounds where you have to move, your damage is on par with a sorcerer moving. In rounds where you DON'T have to move, your damage is way higher. And even dropping the sustain isn't a big deal, you can recast it up to three times. Other classes would KILL for a (2d4/2 level)+ level AOE single action, even without the sustain, even without the persistent damage.
Also, as I said earlier, the animist has the best initiative in the game - at level 20, at least 5 points higher than a sorcerer. That's a huge deal for blasting before people get in melee.
I'm not theorycrafting here, I'm just telling my experience. I'm currently playing an animist and I find it just better at blasting than my spellblending wizard, my elemental sorc or my fire kineticist. The only thing that came close was my Distant Grasp Psychic, but it comes with his own problems.
Edit:
a 20ft. burst that ignore allies is not massively easier to position than a 120ft. line
Wut ?
I'm not theorycrafting here, I'm just telling my experience. I'm currently playing an animist and I find it just better at blasting than my spellblending wizard, my elemental sorc or my fire kineticist. The only thing that came close was my Distant Grasp Psychic, but it comes with his own problems.
Ok, so from what I read, it's not really Earth's Bile that makes a blaster out of the Animist (because even if it's nice it's nowhere close to super strong) but the high initiative to act first.
Well, that's an interesting point. The importance of initiative on blasting is not to be dismissed but it's really hard to assess due to its extreme variability. And then it's the status bonus to Perception you can get through a feat that makes the Animist so good at acting first.
a 20ft. burst that ignore allies is not massively easier to position than a 120ft. lineWut ?
I just saw your edit.
A 20ft. burst that ignore allies will in general target all enemies even if there are cases where it won't be possible (especially at first round when enemies are spread between their starting position and the party position, depending on who acted among them and who didn't). A 120ft. line will target at least 2 enemies and very often 3. For a lot of encounters, it's actually close to all enemies. If I take Abomination Vaults (mostly because I calculated it), you have something like 70% of the encounters that feature less than 4 enemies.But I agree this will be very table dependent, depending on what you are facing and the party size.
I just saw your edit.
A 20ft. burst that ignore allies will in general target all enemies even if there are cases where it won't be possible (especially at first round when enemies are spread between their starting position and the party position, depending on who acted among them and who didn't). A 120ft. line will target at least 2 enemies and very often 3. For a lot of encounters, it's actually close to all enemies. If I take Abomination Vaults (mostly because I calculated it), you have something like 70% of the encounters that feature less than 4 enemies.
But I agree this will be very table dependent, depending on what you are facing and the party size.
Maybe… if you take one move to position yourself. Which is a net dps loss.
caster have good damage when they have good damage focus spell
earth bile trade 1 action cast time for worse sustain damage of 1d4 per level
compare to standard 1d6 damage per level of insterstellar void
sorcerer have far better damage
Sure, interstellar void is an awesome spell and I love it BUT
- it’s single target and not AOE- it’s fortitude and not reflex
- it has no persistent damage on a failure
- Interstellar void is not sorcerer but oracle, so unless you take the dedication (which animist can take as well), you won't have it
- Earth’s bile can be strenghtened by Channeler’s stance to match and even surpass the damage at odd levels.
Interstellar Void is still great as a striking, debuffing spell. But it has no place in a discussion about blasting abilities.
Maybe… if you take one move to position yourself. Which is a net dps loss.
It's a net DPR loss for an Animist. The Animist is action constrained and as such will lose DPR everytime it uses an action for anything but damage. That's not an issue for a Sorcerer.
Channeler's Stance style of bonus doesn't cost actions for other classes, for example. I took it on my Animist and then retrained out of it: The cost isn't worth the gain as dealing damage happens during the first rounds not later on.
I also wonder what experience you have with Earth's Bile. Because you make a distinction between single target and AoE damage, implying that Earth's Bile is AoE damage. But that's only really true at low level. Once level 10, getting more than a single enemy in a 10-foot burst will be the exception, not the rule, as at that stage enemies are bigger, their range and mobility are higher and maps are bigger, too.
caster have good damage when they have good damage focus spell
earth bile trade 1 action cast time for worse sustain damage of 1d4 per level
compare to standard 1d6 damage per level of insterstellar void
sorcerer have far better damage
I think this is a misleading statement.
Casters blast well when they can use 3 actions to maximize damage consistently through encounters.
Many players get into a conservatory mindset about spell slots and sabotage their ability to be good blasters and end up falling back on focus spell options to avoid the feeling that they are wasting spell slots.
Some focus spells compliment blaster casting by providing one action blasting options (which is where Earth's Bile currently sits), but with enough spell slots and spell items (especially scrolls) Force Barrage can easily cover this role and hit at a much greater range. Force Barrage is one of the reasons that divine list suffers as a blaster list.
I think it is very interesting (for both the animist and the potential runesmith in play testing) that part of the animist balance appears to be that there is really only one blasting option for apparition focus spells. If there was a second one, then it is certainly possible that the animist would jump up higher on the blasting list, but it seems like we might not ever get a second one, exactly because there is no other limit on focus spell blasting for the animist than "you don't have enough options to make this viable."
The fact the animist can't use scrolls of its non-divine apparition spells really hurts its ability to be an all day blaster. The animist is generally very good at being "a thing" (like blaster) for about 1 encounter a day, but very bad at trying to keep doing that thing through multiple encounters, with the exceptions of healing and gishing.
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I also wonder what experience you have with Earth's Bile. Because you make a distinction between single target and AoE damage, implying that Earth's Bile is AoE damage. But that's only really true at low level. Once level 10, getting more than a single enemy in a 10-foot burst will be the exception, not the rule, as at that stage enemies are bigger, their range and mobility are higher and maps are bigger, too.
I'm playing Stolen Fate with an Animist. It's been fairly common to get 2 enemies in an Earths Bile (or 1 troop which is just as good).
It's too soon to have lots of communal experience with Animists right now. But for me Animists are decent blasters that more than make up for any lack there by their versatility.
It's a net DPR loss for an Animist. The Animist is action constrained and as such will lose DPR everytime it uses an action for anything but damage. That's not an issue for a Sorcerer.
Well, if the animist can use three actions to deal damage, it WILL outdamage the sorcerer.
If the animist cannot, it will deal the same damage.Also, after level 9, you can move AND sustain, which makes it even better and solves this issue.
I also wonder what experience you have with Earth's Bile. Because you make a distinction between single target and AoE damage, implying that Earth's Bile is AoE damage. But that's only really true at low level. Once level 10, getting more than a single enemy in a 10-foot burst will be the exception, not the rule, as at that stage enemies are bigger, their range and mobility are higher and maps are bigger, too.
Like I said in my first post, I've only played it for a month (but at two long sessions a week) and we're level 7, so I have no high-level experience with the animist, I admit. I just came to share my love of this class and my wonder at how much damage I can dish out.
Maybe you'll be right, maybe it'll lose some steam at later levels, maybe I'll be disappointed. But I doubt it, since the best part is yet to come:
- Free sustain at level 9
- Up to 3 quickened per day at level 10
- Cardinal guardians at level 14 for a juicy -2 to saves
As for a 10-feet burst, I think we can safely say that there will often be at least 2 targets in it, even when they're big. At least that has been my experience with previous APs.
The fact the animist can't use scrolls of its non-divine apparition spells really hurts its ability to be an all day blaster. The animist is generally very good at being "a thing" (like blaster) for about 1 encounter a day, but very bad at trying to keep doing that thing through multiple encounters, with the exceptions of healing and gishing.
That's true, the animist has less staying power than other classes.
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The fact the animist can't use scrolls of its non-divine apparition spells really hurts its ability to be an all day blaster. The animist is generally very good at being "a thing" (like blaster) for about 1 encounter a day, but very bad at trying to keep doing that thing through multiple encounters, with the exceptions of healing and gishing.
Are we talking about days when you don't have that particular apparition attuned? Because when an apparition is attuned, all their apparition spells count as divine so you should be able to use wands and scrolls for those spells freely.
Animists cast apparition spells as divine spells, but they don't get added to the divine spell list and the only way you can cast them is with a special apparition spell slot, so I don't think you can use scrolls or wands with those spells, even if you have the correct apparition attuned.
No, the Animist needs these actions to be on par with the Sorcerer because it has to pay actions for its blasting buffs (mostly Channeler's Stance) when Sorcerer, Oracle and Witch don't pay actions for them.
I think you're underestimating Earth's Bile a lot: there are NO other AOE 1-action spells that I'm aware of.
Earth's Bile + spell is more damage than the sorcerer can deal in a round, even without Channeler's stance.
The only thing that could help the sorcerer is Chain Lightning, I give you this one, but it comes late into play and it can spectacularly backfire.
I'm sorry but I question your experience. Level 7 is an excellent level for blasting. Obviously because of the proficiency bump, but also because lower level enemies have low hit points compared to blasts damage output (a rank 4 Fireball deals half of the hit points of a level 5 creature).
To that, I'll add that it's an ideal level for the Animist. Most blasters start being blasters at level 5 while the Animist has to wait for level 7. So you conveniently ignore the problematic levels.
So I understand your overall feeling, especially compared to characters you have played accross a much bigger level range, playing good and bad levels in the process. But I don't expect it to last if you play your Animist on a broader level range.
Well, I'm the first to say I'm inexperienced yet as an animist - and that I just love it so far and think it's incredibly strong. But again, you're selling Earth's Bile very short if you think level 7 is a convenient level for the animist - that's one level where earth's bile doesn't actually progress.
Also, I didn't "choose" to speak about level 7, it's just that it's currently my level ^^
And you talk about the witch but I fail to see how her AOE damage can compare to the sorcerer.
But let's see how this played out at earlier levels since you're telling me it's problematic.
LEVELS 1-2
Well, nobody can even try to dispute that animist is the king of blasting, since there are very little AOE available. Even without channeler's stance, 2d4 damage + 1 persistent in a 10-feet radius for one action, followed by a spell or even a cantrip like electric arc is more multiple-target damage than what any sorcerer can output.
LEVELS 3-4
More of the same. Earth's Bile didn't progress so damage is low-ish, but 2d4 +1 persistent on top of Sudden Blight is still more AOE damage than any other class. Sorcerer gets +2 Sorcerous Potency and, if it's a bloodline spell and his bloodline deals damage, maybe 2 more dmg on one target. That's still not enough to bridge the gap. And if I get one action to spare somehow, I can match his +2 anyway.
LEVELS 5-6
Primal and Arcane casters get the much coveted fireball, but then so do I - once per day + scrolls. I admit these levels might be tougher, but I'm still ahead because guess what, Earth's Bile is now 4d4 +2 persistent, and I can still cast sudden blight as a poor man's fireball. So without even channeler's stance, I'm still ahead.
LEVEL 7
I gained Divine Wrath but we only did one fight so far so, apart from telling you how awesome the spell is combined with Earth's Bile, I don't have much to say.
But I can still point out that 4d10 (sickened) + 4d4+2 persistent (with -1 save for those sickened) is more AOE damage than your sorcercer casting a fireball for 8d6+4+ whatever you want to do as a fourth action. And if I win initiative and the opponents are spread out, I can still choose to throw a fireball like you, because why not ? Especially since I have much more chance than you at winning initiative.
And the real fun starts at level 9, where moving won't even mess my rythm anymore. I'd really like to see a realistic scenario where your sorcerer could dish out more damage.
The problem with animist is certainly not burst dps but sustainability. The big guns are spent quicker than a sorcerer, that's for sure. But then, the animist slowly starts to get back in the lead since his focus point is so much stronger than the sorcerer's one.
Also, you keep saying that the 30 feet range kills Earth's Bile for you, but it hasn't been my experience at all. Even in other APs when I was level 18 or 19, most of the fights were still usually in tight or cramped spaces. Sure, if all the opponents are archers hidden behind their barbicanes 200 feet away and won't move, you'll outdps me, but that didn't really happen in my games.
So, instead of telling me I might not know my class at higher level (which is true) or I don't know how to blast (which hopefully is wrong), I would love for you to give me an actual scenario where you think your blasting would deal more damage.
But I can still point out that 4d10 (sickened) + 4d4+2 persistent (with -1 save for those sickened) is more AOE damage than your sorcercer casting a fireball for 8d6+4+ whatever you want to do as a fourth action.
No it's not.
8d6+4 = 324d10+4d4+2 = 34
An Oracle will have 4d10+8 = 30 but the extra 8 points are not subject to the save result outside Critical Successes.
And Earth's Bile is a smal area with a small range. And both the Sorcerer and the Oracle have a third action.
The Animist needs its 3 actions to compete with classes who get actual bonuses at blasting like the Sorcerer, the Oracle or the Witch.
And you talk about the witch but I fail to see how her AOE damage can compare to the sorcerer.
The Witch has nice feats with its Familiar. Mostly Stitched Familiar and the other one. Familiars have also some small AoE effects, like Elemental Scamp Breath weapon or you can use Cauldron to give them Potions of Dragon Breath. And with Independent, they are free to use.
So, instead of telling me I might not know my class at higher level (which is true) or I don't know how to blast (which hopefully is wrong), I would love for you to give me an actual scenario where you think your blasting would deal more damage.
I'm still waiting for a moment where the Animist is ahead. The Animist is on par through the use of its 3 actions. The second it needs to move it's behind.
AOE
Also, I don't agree with your focus on AoE. Single target damage is mandatory in a game where solo enemies are a real threat. I'd not call a character a blaster if it only blasts half of the time.
No it's not.
8d6+4 = 32
4d10+4d4+2 = 34
An Oracle will have 4d10+8 = 30 but the extra 8 points are not subject to the save result outside Critical Successes.
And Earth's Bile is a smal area with a small range. And both the Sorcerer and the Oracle have a third action.
The Animist needs its 3 actions to compete with classes who get actual bonuses at blasting like the Sorcerer, the Oracle or the Witch.
Well, yes it is, 34 > 32 or so it seems ^^
Also, I said it was the most problematic level AND the 2 damage are persistent AND I could still cast a fireball once a day to further the gap (8d6+4d4+2=40) AND I didn't take an action to enter Channeler's stance (8d6+4+4d4+4+2=48).As for the oracle, his problem is that you can too easily pilfer his cursebound spells. You cannot get Earth's Bile without being an animist, you cannot get Sorcerous Potency without being a sorcerer, but anyone with two feats to spare (and even moreso with free archetype) can get Foretell Harm.
I'm still waiting for a moment where the Animist is ahead. The Animist is on par through the use of its 3 actions. The second it needs to move it's behind
It seems to me I proved it earlier. And at level 9, moving isn't a problem anymore.
Also, I don't agree with your focus on AoE. Single target damage is mandatory in a game where solo enemies are a real threat. I'd not call a character a blaster if it only blasts half of the time.
It's semantics. A blaster is an AOE nuker. A striker is a solo target nuker.
The animist is in my opinion the best blaster. By no means is he the best solo nuker, not even close. My job is to kill the minions, not kill the boss. Against a boss, debuffing him or buffing my friends will be more productive since I don't have good solo cantrips, force barrage or any other highly effective damaging spell unless it's undead.
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I can't help but see this argument as largely moot.
I think that we're all agreed that an Animist is, at a minimum, a fairly good blaster.
But then we're arguing what takes a character from a decent blaster to a great blaster.
Is it staying power? Is it single target damage? Is it multiple target damage? Is it basic survivability? Is it the ability to do OTHER things as well as blast? Are we arguing in the context of a campaign with lots of undead or lots of troops or lots of single boss encounters?
For me, the Animist is a good enough blaster to keep me happy while having huge amounts of flexibility in other roles which combine to make me VERY happy.
It's a net DPR loss for an Animist. The Animist is action constrained and as such will lose DPR everytime it uses an action for anything but damage. That's not an issue for a Sorcerer.Well, if the animist can use three actions to deal damage, it WILL outdamage the sorcerer.
If the animist cannot, it will deal the same damage.Also, after level 9, you can move AND sustain, which makes it even better and solves this issue.
I also wonder what experience you have with Earth's Bile. Because you make a distinction between single target and AoE damage, implying that Earth's Bile is AoE damage. But that's only really true at low level. Once level 10, getting more than a single enemy in a 10-foot burst will be the exception, not the rule, as at that stage enemies are bigger, their range and mobility are higher and maps are bigger, too.Like I said in my first post, I've only played it for a month (but at two long sessions a week) and we're level 7, so I have no high-level experience with the animist, I admit. I just came to share my love of this class and my wonder at how much damage I can dish out.
Maybe you'll be right, maybe it'll lose some steam at later levels, maybe I'll be disappointed. But I doubt it, since the best part is yet to come:
- Free sustain at level 9
- Up to 3 quickened per day at level 10
- Cardinal guardians at level 14 for a juicy -2 to savesAs for a 10-feet burst, I think we can safely say that there will often be at least 2 targets in it, even when they're big. At least that has been my experience with previous APs.
That's true, the animist has...
The fact the animist can't use scrolls of its non-divine apparition spells really hurts its ability to be an all day blaster. The animist is generally very good at being "a thing" (like blaster) for about 1 encounter a day, but very bad at trying to keep doing that thing through multiple encounters, with the exceptions of healing and gishing.
Divine has a few really nice summons too like the Muse Azata to buff the entire party. With the free sustain, that can be real nice after 9th level.
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I can't help but see this argument as largely moot.
I think that we're all agreed that an Animist is, at a minimum, a fairly good blaster.
But then we're arguing what takes a character from a decent blaster to a great blaster.
Is it staying power? Is it single target damage? Is it multiple target damage? Is it basic survivability? Is it the ability to do OTHER things as well as blast? Are we arguing in the context of a campaign with lots of undead or lots of troops or lots of single boss encounters?
For me, the Animist is a good enough blaster to keep me happy while having huge amounts of flexibility in other roles which combine to make me VERY happy.
So much wisdom in so little words ^^
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Animists cast apparition spells as divine spells, but they don't get added to the divine spell list and the only way you can cast them is with a special apparition spell slot, so I don't think you can use scrolls or wands with those spells, even if you have the correct apparition attuned.
Are there any other examples, strict general rulings or Paizo statements that support this? That just seems like pushing RAW to an extreme.
Animists cast apparition spells as divine spells, but they don't get added to the divine spell list and the only way you can cast them is with a special apparition spell slot, so I don't think you can use scrolls or wands with those spells, even if you have the correct apparition attuned.Are there any other examples, strict general rulings or Paizo statements that support this? That just seems like pushing RAW to an extreme.
If the apparition spells got fully added to the animist divine spell list, then they would be able to prepare them in prepared slots while they were attuned to a specific apparition. The language around apparition spells is just different from other features that add spells to the divine list and I think part of that reason is to prevent the animist from having unlimited access to the spells through items.
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If the apparition spells got fully added to the animist divine spell list, then they would be able to prepare them in prepared slots while they were attuned to a specific apparition. The language around apparition spells is just different from other features that add spells to the divine list and I think part of that reason is to prevent the animist from having unlimited access to the spells through items.Animists cast apparition spells as divine spells, but they don't get added to the divine spell list and the only way you can cast them is with a special apparition spell slot, so I don't think you can use scrolls or wands with those spells, even if you have the correct apparition attuned.Are there any other examples, strict general rulings or Paizo statements that support this? That just seems like pushing RAW to an extreme.
Ok, I can see your reasoning there....
Eh, I think a Draconic Sorcerer (arcane, fortune dragon), who can easily do three Dragon's Breaths of force damage each combat at level 10 and forward, all day long and not even use his spells slots, is pretty good at blasting. Maybe not the one with the highest damage potential per spell, but the sustainability is very nice.
If all you want is blasting damage, you really can't do better than the sorcerer. Great spells with lots of slots to use them, free damage boost, easy access to foretell harm, powerful 3rd action focus spells. After Explosion of Power it's no longer even close.
Explosion of Power is hard to use. You don't want to be close to the battle as a sorcerer.
If all you want is blasting damage, you really can't do better than the sorcerer. Great spells with lots of slots to use them, free damage boost, easy access to foretell harm, powerful 3rd action focus spells. After Explosion of Power it's no longer even close.Explosion of Power is hard to use. You don't want to be close to the battle as a sorcerer.
We only saw it in action for a couple of encounters before the campaign fell apart, but sorcerer combined with martials that have good reflex saves, backfire mantles, and fire resistance becomes gonzo powerful once the martial characters get their evasion abilities. Breathe Fire become very easy to use to hit 3 or even 4 targets once everyone gets all entangled in melee and you don't have to worry about hitting allies. Fireball is a bit harder because the casters will still get wrecked even with the backfire mantles and the resistance, but where you have room to cast it far enough back it can be great.
animist is probably one of the best casters in the game in general, at the cost of being the most complex class in the game
I should have said "the highest AOE damage in a round", that would have been more clear and spark less controversy.
My goal was only to highlight how much Earth's Bile seems delightfully overtuned and how it really makes the animist play with the big boys, to the point that he's outdamaging them a few times a day.
But the combo Explosion of Power + Anoint Ally is very interesting, I didn't think about it and, although it needs two feats in a class that's packed full of goodies, the result looks pretty neat ^^
We only saw it in action for a couple of encounters before the campaign fell apart, but sorcerer combined with martials that have good reflex saves, backfire mantles, and fire resistance becomes gonzo powerful once the martial characters get their evasion abilities. Breathe Fire become very easy to use to hit 3 or even 4 targets once everyone gets all entangled in melee and you don't have to worry about hitting allies. Fireball is a bit harder because the casters will still get wrecked even with the backfire mantles and the resistance, but where you have room to cast it far enough back it can be great.If all you want is blasting damage, you really can't do better than the sorcerer. Great spells with lots of slots to use them, free damage boost, easy access to foretell harm, powerful 3rd action focus spells. After Explosion of Power it's no longer even close.Explosion of Power is hard to use. You don't want to be close to the battle as a sorcerer.
As a DM, if I see the sorcerer move up into melee range, I'm immediately going to target the sorcerer with everything to kill them as fast as possible. Maybe they survive a bit in the mid level ranges, but stepping up like that in melee is going to lead to them dead.
This is likely a table difference as when I DM at my table, monsters do not spread attacks very much. They focus fire on targets to kill them as fast as possible, same as PCs in general do.
So a caster stepping into melee range is a bad idea, especially a 6 point caster because the monsters with even a modicum of intelligence will focus on the soft targets not wearing steel armor first and leave the hard targets for later.
Explosion of Power does nice damage, but melee range for a caster is a near death sentence at my table.
Now that Anointed Ally with Explosion of Power looks very interesting. Blood Magic effects were so meh that I never looked at Anoint Ally.