So I am trying to do something very specific.. Is is possible to add combat feats or others to armor like the Training Enchantment for weapons?
Nah... what i'm looking for is arcane armor training, mastery on the armor so my arcane spellcaster can wear the armor without using my own feat slots... lol also does mithril breastplate count as light armor for proficiencies??
Nah... what i'm looking for is arcane armor training, mastery on the armor so my arcane spellcaster can wear the armor without using my own feat slots... lol also does mithril breastplate count as light armor for proficiencies??
Just play a magus. (or get AC bonus from other sources)
2 things to note:
1.
to gain a weapon's special ability one must be attacking with the weapon. not just holding it (unless said otherwise in said ability), this was ruled in the defending weapon FAQ, as such to gain the weapon training feat from a weapon one must actively attack with said weapon.
This is a very important limiter to the ability to pay for feats!
It is more then reasonable for a GM to say you can't get this on an armor since it will make gaining the feat a lot easier (as merely wearing the armor is using it). from the wording of the faq it seem the ability will function for the entire round as long as in any part of it the weapon is used to attack, not just at the exact time of using the weapon.
that also stand for putting the ability on armor spikes. the mage would have to attack with them to gain the feat, which might limit his ability to cast spells at the same round (would require swift\free action casting or attacking, or a way to do both like spell combat).
2.
mithral armor does NOT count as light for proficiencies, as such using a medium mithral armor without being proficient will get you the normal penalties for using the armor without proficiency (might not be that bad to a caster, i think it's mainly gaining the armor check penalties to attack rolls, depending on the spells used that might have little effect on the caster. ) you might also want to look this up.
from the mithral special material information:
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty on all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving."
BUT some special armors made out of mithral are specifically worded to ignore that and let the user treat them as lighter for proficiency. for example the elven chain (which is a mithral chainmail, not a chain shirt, I guess elves get the good things).
There are a couple of specific armors that count as light armor even though they are armor that is normally medium armor. Celestial Armor is probably about the best armor for a DEX based arcane caster. Elven Chain is another medium armor that counts as light armor for which proficiency you need. Elven chain cost about 1.000 gold more than mithral chain.
There are also a few light armor types that an arcane spell caster can use even without proficiency. Haramaki, silken ceremonial armor and varisian dancing scarves have no arcane spell failure or ACP. These have a +1 AC bonus but can be enchanted to provide a higher bonus. Enchanted armor is actually much cheaper than an enchanted weapon. A suit of +3 silken ceremonial armor would provide a +4 AC with no ACP or arcane spell failure. It would cost 9,170 gold.
2 things to note:
1.
to gain a weapon's special ability one must be attacking with the weapon. not just holding it (unless said otherwise in said ability), this was ruled in the defending weapon FAQ, as such to gain the weapon training feat from a weapon one must actively attack with said weapon.
This is a very important limiter to the ability to pay for feats!
It is more then reasonable for a GM to say you can't get this on an armor since it will make gaining the feat a lot easier (as merely wearing the armor is using it). from the wording of the faq it seem the ability will function for the entire round as long as in any part of it the weapon is used to attack, not just at the exact time of using the weapon.
that also stand for putting the ability on armor spikes. the mage would have to attack with them to gain the feat, which might limit his ability to cast spells at the same round (would require swift\free action casting or attacking, or a way to do both like spell combat).2.
mithral armor does NOT count as light for proficiencies, as such using a medium mithral armor without being proficient will get you the normal penalties for using the armor without proficiency (might not be that bad to a caster, i think it's mainly gaining the armor check penalties to attack rolls, depending on the spells used that might have little effect on the caster. ) you might also want to look this up.from the mithral special material information:
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty...
So what you're saying is... if a wizard wants to wear breastplate... the breast plate needs to have light and medium armor prof feats and arcane armor training and mastery? then a wizard could wear it instantly?
So what I am seeing is that there is no way to apply feats to armor like you can with weapons? So it would be up to the GM and to look over the crafting rules to achieve something like this??
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So what I am seeing is that there is no way to apply feats to armor like you can with weapons? So it would be up to the GM and to look over the crafting rules to achieve something like this??You have two parts there;
your first statement is incorrect. You can apply armor feats to armor, and weapon feats to weapons. Feats are different than weapon or armor qualities(magical enhancements). You cannot apply weapon feats to armor unless the feat itself says you can. Similarly there are different lists for weapon and armor 'special qualities' and PCs pay separately for each.
shield spikes require a separate mwk & weapon (to hit & dmg) enhancement from the shield's mwk cost and (AC) enhancement, thus mwk shield cost & enhancements + mwk spikes & weapon enhancements.On the second statement - GMs always tinker with RAW for their Home Game.
Pretty sure they were referencing the weapon ability training in regards to "Applying a feat to a weapon". The weapon ability givess a feat to the character.
Training
Source Inner Sea Intrigue pg. 52
Aura faint transmutation CL 3rd
Slot none; Price +1 bonus; Weight —
Description
Popular among those who seek to impersonate skilled warriors, a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. The feat is chosen when this special ability is placed on the weapon. That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets its prerequisites. Once chosen, the feat stored in the weapon cannot be changed.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic weapon, creator must have the chosen combat feat and its prerequisites; Price —
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Realizing this is the rules thread (no, there is no such armor quality) and not the advice thread, I'll veer into advice:
You probably should not create such a magical property. There are many, many instances of Paizo designers saying "don't create magic items that give the user a feat." Probably the best is SKR's list of RPG Superstar auto-recjects, which flat out calls such an item "cheesy."
..
A +1 Training(lgt armr prfc) cestus is $8305 as long as the weapon is worn(drawn and in hand)...
My first point above was that holding the weapon is NOT ENOUGH. to gain a benefit from a magical weapon's ability (such as a feat from a training weapon) one must ATTACK WITH IT!
-merely holding the weapon doesn't work unless the ability would allow so specifically.which is why I also said GM have more then enough reason to not allow armor to gain this special ability, as the armor is used by wearing it. the limit of attacking with a weapon to gain said 'feats for gold' is something the GM might consider an important balance issue.
Also the fact that armor's abilities that are counted as + for cost are half of the weapon's. if you allow this the only one who would go for a training WEAPON ability is those who do not wear armor.
to wit:
As of now to gain, say the 'cleave' feat, one must pay at least (weapon base price)+300(masterwork)+8000 gp AND use the weapon to attack in the round he wants to gain the feat.
To move this ability as is to an armor would reduce the cost to (armor base price)+ 150(masterwork) +4000 gp AND work the moment one wear the armor for as long as he wear it.
clearly a change of the ability's power balance and costs!
what home game option are you talking about?! I linked a rule FAQ in there. that mean it's by the rules, not a homebrew option.
in case you missed the link let me post it here so you can't say you didn't see it:
"(Q) - Defending Weapon Property: Do I have to make attack rolls with the weapon to gain its AC bonus?
(A) - Yes. Merely holding a defending weapon is not sufficient. Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks, wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it, and so on) to gain its benefits.
Therefore, if you don't make an attack roll with a defending weapon on your turn, you don't gain its defensive benefit.
Likewise, while you can give a shield the defending property (after you've given it a +1 enhancement bonus to attacks, of course), you wouldn't get the AC bonus from the defending property unless you used the shield to make a shield bash that round--unless you're using the shield as a weapon (to make a shield bash), the defending weapon property has no effect."
Since we are at the RULES thread i linked the rules which in this case say:
if you want to use a magical weapon ability AND it doesn't say the ability work just by holding the weapon the RULES are that you MUST ATTACK WITH IT.
-This is not some homebrew option, it's the rules!
So for the 3rd and final time I repeat this rule: a training weapon's feat can't be gained unless one used the weapon to attack in the round he want to gain the feat.
the words in the line (which i made bold so you wouldn't miss them, and you seem to miss non the less) :
"Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks, wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it, and so on) to gain its benefits."
doesn't talk only about defending weapon it talk about ANY magical item. the fact it is used while answering the question about defending weapon doesn't make it a rule only for that magical ability.
to wit the words 'and so on' can't be used for other items that have the defending magic weapon ability since they are items other then magic weapons which the ability shouldn't be used with to start.
if by the way you read it it mean this rule only apply to defending weapon magic item ability. what other items that are not weapon can have that ability?!
ALSO
if the answer was only for the defending weapon ability, which is later on explained that if used on a shield the shield must be used to attack with, then why does it say merely wearing the shield would be enough to use it?
"wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it"
VS
"unless you used the shield to make a shield bash that round--unless you're using the shield as a weapon (to make a shield bash), the defending weapon property has no effect."
the answer is that in the general rule a shield (armor) magic ability work just by wearing the shield, but if you want to enchant the shield as a WEAPON (with the defending ability) you must then use the shield to attack and it's not enough to wear it!
if this rule was only for the defending ability the part about the shield working by just wearing it is a contradiction to the example that come right after that!
To sum:
This faq is asked a question about a magical weapon ability. if the weapon must be used to attack to gain the benefit. the answer is ANY magic item must be used in the manner it is designed to for the benefit to work (unless said otherwise), defending weapon ability as well. in a magical weapon case it mean to attack with it, in case of a shield for example it mean to wear it for defense etc. As such other magical weapon abilities, again unless specifically call it out otherwise, must be used to attack for their benefit to apply, training weapon ability included.
right... that argument doesn't apply as defending operates rather differently. Just saying it and linking to a FAQ doesn't make your supposition true or applicable.
Thus I reject the argument as unsound. You may have better luck with other posters or readers.upate-
I read the FAQ and Defending weapon quality.
Sorry, doesn't apply here as the Training weapon quality is missing two key statements that are in Defending; requiring an action to allot the bonus(even if it is a free action)(aka activation), the bonus expiring at the end of the user's turn.
Secondly the FAQ is talking about Defending and uses the term in all three paragraphs making it rather specific.
It would be nice if it did apply but I can't logically and in good faith make that connection.
then please explain with YOUR logic and GOOD FAITH why does it at one time call out that a magical shield work just by wearing it and later on say you must attack with it to make it work? IF what you say the LOGIC is, that ONLY defending weapon ability is talked about in this faq?
also while you are at it. please list the other non-weapon nor shields magical items that have the defending ability that are called to work in the same manner? (mentioned with the words 'so on').
also-also why talk about magic item if this is only about the magic weapon defending ability?
my explanation make it clear, it answer about the defending ability by stating the rule for ALL MAGIC ITEMS, defending weapon among them.
which again is why it can talk about other, non-weapon, magic items and about how a shield is used with only wearing it, and then explain that if you want to use a weapon ability in a shield then it must be used to attack.
please explain all this using LOGIC and GOOD FAITH.
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zza ni, I get where you are coming from. I really do. The FAQ certainly does say "you have to use a weapon to make attacks to gain its benefits."
But. . . the FAQ makes a lot of properties close to useless when you try to extend it to everything. Maybe because it was written in June 2011, before many other weapon and armor qualities were published. Or maybe the FAQ writer thought his language was more constrained than the way you are interpreting it.
Typically forged by aeons or other creatures that eschew commonly held structures of morality, unaligned weapons quell the effects of extreme alignments on the wielder. The wielder counts her Hit Dice as 4 lower than her actual total HD when someone attempts to detect her alignment using detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, or similar spells or effects. Furthermore, if the wielder is an outsider and is targeted by a spell or effect with an alignment descriptor that deals additional damage to or has an additional effect on outsiders (such as holy smite), she adds a bonus equal to the unaligned weapon’s enhancement bonus on saving throws she attempts against that spell or effect. Finally, the wielder takes no penalties on her Charisma-, Intelligence-, or Wisdom-based checks from a plane’s mildly aligned or strongly aligned traits, regardless of her actual alignment.
If we try to apply the defending FAQ the way you suggest, the first and last benefits of unaligned are close to useless. If someone casts detect chaos you count as 4 HD lower, but only if you made an attack with that weapon in the previous round? You DO take mental ability-based check penalties in any non-combat rounds when you are on an aligned plane?
The only way to really split the difference and not invalidate many magic qualities is to focus in on one part of the defending weapon property.
...the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn...
Defending specifically says you have to "use the weapon" and it says the bonus lasts until the start of your next turn. As opposed to properties like Unaligned which just grant benefits to "the wielder" with no timeframe limits.
For training in particular it's even more clear-cut.
Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed. . .
...a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand...
Clearly "otherwise specified" as granting the feat as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand.
I did not intend to start an argument in this thread and I apologize for doing so.
on that note, if the issue is a balance issue then i concede to the fact that it shouldn't be done unless you want to screw with the balance of the setting you are running.
thank you all for your input. i learned a lot from here.