Envoy Recommendations / Feedback

[RyMarq]

I want to say that to start with that I am a large fan of the overall concept behind the Envoy. It was capable of powerful support based on planning and charisma in SF1e, and there are some hints at genuinely interesting choices in the new Envoy.

The problem is that everything feels very locked-in. You have very few good actions to choose from, and your base loop takes up so much of your turn. Options you get are not something you use every turn for the most part, but are very specific contextual abilities with cooldowns. You get a few directives, but fundamentally you are just going to have a choice between 'get in there' and 'get em', with very limited alterations on attack+directive+basic supporting action. The abilities based on all these things are very limited, but I feel there is still a path forward for the Envoy to be better, but it will be a more difficult path than for the other classes at this point.

I am going to break down how much Power the class has, what that means for its Power budget, and what might be interesting ways of exploring some choices for the class.

Currently, as a basic martial, the class has a -3 to hit as compared to an Operative (about -2.5 tbh). An operative uses an action to add 1d4 to 6d6 damage while effectively increasing their ability to hit by another +1-4. Just comparing the DPR of the Envoy to the Operative, we are looking at approximately 61%-114% DPS, boosting 3 allies who dont have a way to get that variety of bonus to 25%-80% at high level, increase to more than about 2.1x on turns where they use 'show me what you got' at higher level. In theory this actually seems relatively even, but they are *so far* behind the Operative in personal DPS, while needing to attack to give allies a benefit, and without many good other options even when they get the ability to do something else.

Still, the bonuses they get definitely have potential. In a party of 4, they are realistically contributing as much as the 'traditional' martial.

The difference is not one of numbers, but one of other capabilities. That Operative can
Reload and Move
Gets unique capabilities based on subclass
Can Aim and move
Can attack and enter cover.
etc

Even at level 6, the Operative has gained an Assortment of abilities, that let them every turn get *double action-economy* on nearly every action they take, and make special attacks with trade-offs. Meanwhile, until *very high level*, the Envoy must do the same loop every time to get parity effects, and the options the class gets are often on cooldowns, while not even being more effective.

Currently You Get:
Trained in 8+ Skills
Basic Martial Proficiency
A bonus skill feat
Get Em
The ability to investigate specific individuals to get a minor bonus and initiative advantage

Your Early feats are giving action or reaction options, but are not increasing the density of your choices or compressing your actions at all.

Lets imagine 3 lines of Envoy Feat, related to attack, movement, and 'skill'. Each is designed to fulfill the fantasy of 'Striker', 'anything'(supporting all kits), and 'Support' focuses for the class.
Lets imagine that Get Em is just one of an initial set of Directives, one for each Style, and that you can get feats at certain levels to gain access to other style's directives.

Now, admittedly I just had some fun with it making a set of directives and capabilities I think would be interesting here. Realistically, the level 6 is too good if it gives a free action under certain circumstances, so some other class features would need to be reduced a bit, but ultimately I found these examples fun.

1: So lets imagine 7 Directives
From the Front Directive: Get in There! (adjusted)
Everyone may spend their reaction to step or stride half their move speed.
Follow: If you move, gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your next melee attack this turn, adding your charisma bonus to the damage increasing by 1 at levels 5,10,15, and 20.

Act of Leadership: Once per turn, when you move adjacent to an enemy or raise a shield, you may issue a one-action directive as a free action.

From the Shadows Directive: Prepare to Pounce
Everyone may spend their reaction to take cover or hide
Follow: If you do this, everyone who follows receives your CHA Mod as a circumstance bonus to their next attack from cover, increasing by 2 at levels 5,10,15, and 20

Act of Leadership: Once per turn, when you hide, sneak, or take cover you may issue a 1-action directive as a free action.

Guns Blazing Directive: Get Em
No Changes

Act of Leadership: Once per turn when you make a ranged attack with MAP or make an area/auto-attack, you may issue an directive as a free action.

In the Spotlight Directive: Dazzle Them
Those within 100 feet of you get a +1 circumstance bonus to Demoralize, Feinting, and Performance checks. If they perform any such check, this counts as preparing Aid for any ally's attack using the same skill for their aid roll.
Follow: If you use one of these skills, gain an extra reaction for your Aid reaction. If you aid a strike in this way, it gains a circumstance bonus to its damage equal to your CHA, increasing by 2 at levels 5,10,15, and 20.

Act of Leadership: Once per turn when you roll perform or issue a directive, you may issue an directive as a free action.

Hotshot Directive: Book It
Every ally receives a +5 Status bonus to speed and a +2 Circumstance bonus to their AC against attacks while moving. Increase the speed bonus by +5 at levels 7, 12, and 17. Increase the circumstance bonus to +3 at level 12.
Follow: If you do this, your circumstance bonus lasts until your next turn.

Act of Leadership: Once per turn when you Stunt, Take control, or move more than 30' in an action, you may issue a directive as a free action.

Infosphere Director Directive: Use their weakness
Choose a target. When an ally deals damage to it, triggering a weakness, or targets their weakest save, that ally gets a status bonus to their damage equal to your CHA, increasing by 1 at levels 5,10,15, and 20
Follow: If you would trigger this, each ally attacking the target deals 1 additional Damage of any damage type of your choice. Increasing by 1 at levels 5,10,15, and 20

Act of Leadership: Once per turn when you Recall Knowledge or Roll Computers, you may issue a directive as a free action.

Through Desperate Times: Live!
Every ally heals 1+CHA additional health to a single target when they perform an action with the healing trait, then the target becomes immune to this bonus for 10 minutes. If the action affects many targets, the user chooses only one to get the bonus.
Follow: If you use an action with the healing trait, double this bonus for the target, and heal yourself with the bonus as well. You both become immune to the bonus healing for 10 minutes.

Act of Leadership: Once per turn when you Administer First Aid, use Battle Medicine, or use a healing item on an ally you may issue a directive as a free action.

[Teridax]

I really like the idea of giving each subclass its own directive, and I also very much agree with the criticism that the Envoy has a very rote action rotation at the moment. I would perhaps not compare the Envoy's damage to the Operative, as the Envoy's meant to be more of a support while the Operative is effectively Starfinder's answer to the Fighter's damage output (and also, the class is massively overtuned at the moment), but I agree it would be good to give the class striker-type feats for those wanting to opt into a more aggressive playstyle.

I will also note that OP put some good thought into the directives and made them open-ended enough to work with Acts of Leadership besides the ones mentioned in Lead By Example. Some of them look a little prescriptive to me (lots of bonus to Strikes across several directives), and some might need a bit of tuning (Dazzle Them letting everyone Aid each other's Strikes using their proficiency with a skill could mean a full round of your allies making a Strike with a +4 circumstance bonus each on average), but thinking of how I'd mix and match, I could see different Envoy styles making good use of these different directives, which to me is essential for Acts of Leadership to make sense as a mechanic. I think there are some really good ideas here, and I'd fully support giving Envoys more directives early on especially.

[Ascalaphus]

I definitely agree we need more directives, but I don't want them hard-siloed in leadership styles. I'd prefer something more similar to bard muses or druid orders with their multifarious muse/order explorer. Or even the swashbuckler, where they "liberated" all the gain-panache feats from being locked to specific styles.

I also think it'd be good if all envoys had more than one directive at level 1. Although I'd want to keep Get 'Em available for everyone, similar to bards with courageous anthem.

So how about this?
- All leadership styles get a specialized directive, and Get 'Em.
- There's a level 1 class feat to learn the Style Directive of another style.

---

Aside from that, I'm not feeling like the "asset" class feature comes to life enough at low level, in combat anyway. There's a feat to make someone an asset by shooting them, but why would that be worth it?

But if your Style Directive (or it's Lead By Example) happens to use the asset-boosted skills? Hey now we're cooking.

[Squiggit]

Asset feels somewhat awkward, agreed. The issue of having a specific enemy that's recurrent enough to both warrant investigation and also let the envoy benefit enough from the bonuses feels somewhat niche, a lot of games simply won't have characters like that. Is Size Up intended to just be a ribbon feature?

... I thought about playing around with the idea of letting our Envoy investigate an entire organization to gain bonuses against them and use as an excuse to drip feed them plot. Feels more applicable than just one person while also still encouraging the Envoy to actively research and observe.

... Less important but the word 'Asset' is somewhat awkward too. Asset implies some kind of personal connection to me, and I just don't get that vibe from 'spent an hour stalking their social media' or whatever.

Mark? As in like a con? That might be too typecasting for the Envoy, but it feels more accurate than Asset.

[Teridax]

Squiggit wrote:

Mark? As in like a con? That might be too typecasting for the Envoy, but it feels more accurate than Asset.

I think the problem you're hitting here is that Size Up and the whole idea of the asset is a bit too specific to fit every idea of an Envoy. Your bubbly social media influencer type isn't necessarily going to be investigating some person, nor is your gun-toting showboat or your medic-turned-leader. If your Envoy's a hardcore social engineer type or a con artist, then for sure they'd have a mark or an asset, but that's a very specific type of Envoy.

Personally, I feel this is one of those class features that ought to be a feat. We already have a class in 2e whose shtick is investigating people, it's the Investigator. If others want to opt into that kind of playstyle, a feat might be fine, but there are so many other aspects to the Envoy that I feel could be put to the forefront instead, like their directives and their ability to swap out their skillset in a pinch.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Why I have been saying earlier the Envoy is an interesting class but it KAS being Charisma is not what suits it. The KAS should be based on Leadership Style. Inforsphere Directive is good for INT KAS and good for the Assets mechanic as a feat (Probably more genetic which plays off KAS then a spell Leadership Style). They might get a floating skill feat and then get up to 3 at higher levels but I have never seen someone actively use the versatility of a floating skill feat because it is hard to determine what you need at the start of a day without proper preperation.

I love Envoy but I have yet to see when i can use the Asset part of my kit. I also feel like level 1 I have a single good choice for a feat and that is Look out! Being able to get a Reaction to add +2 AC is incredibly powerful. I picked up Take Em'Alive! as a meme choice and I feel it is not a great option in terms of keeping the party alive.

I feel Get'Em! is powerful but waaaay weaker then the Bard's Courage Anthem which is the same action cost, effects ever Ally in a 60ft emanation which does not rely on rather or not the enemy effective is still standing and is active in combat since the moment they hit 0 hit points Get'Em! buff is immediately removed, even the additional damage from it is not worth the fact it is a single enemy. +1 Status bonus to Attack rolls for the entire turn is much stronger then -1 Circumstance penalty to AC for 1 enemy. Which actively makes me want to archetype into Bard.

Currently I am battling over what is more interesting, Envoy or a Bard for my current build for both of my Envoys I am playing to test them out with different Leadership styles. In the Spotlight! and Guns Blazing. Gu

As I said at the straight Guns Blazing makes me wonder why Envoy is not KAS based on this. Guns Blazing makes me wish it was DEX Focused over CHA.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Not to mention at level 2 you run in to a feat which should just be part of Get'Em! Class Feature which is Change of Plans!. The sheer ability to use a Reaction to effectively extend Get'Em! is way to good to not be a mandatory feat tax upon reaching 2nd level. Yet again Bard does not suffer this issue when it comes to buffing their allies because their buff lasts the entire round and once again effects everyone equally for the entire turn.

So you need a level 2 feat which conflicts with Watch out! Which is incredible by it's own right and now you either give an ally the ability to dodge an attack/criticall or you can extend your debuff by 1 enemy a round, hard choices man...

[Ascalaphus]

Compared to Bard, you get a bigger damage bonus yourself from the Get 'Em / Lead By Example. You're more like a martial, not so much like a caster.

The damage bonus is pretty good at level 1, the difference between a 1d6 gun and 1d6+3 is a lot. Maybe it should scale a bit more aggressively though?

[Exocist]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Compared to Bard, you get a bigger damage bonus yourself from the Get 'Em / Lead By Example. You're more like a martial, not so much like a caster.

The damage bonus is pretty good at level 1, the difference between a 1d6 gun and 1d6+3 is a lot. Maybe it should scale a bit more aggressively though?

Courageous Anthem has a ton of benefits that Get 'Em doesn't, it

a) Has lingering composition so you don't need to repeatedly use it
b) Is a 60ft emanation for your allies which is somewhat easier targeting than one enemy in 60ft
c) Applies to your allies, rather than an enemy, so is not at risk of going away if the enemy dies unlike Get Em.
d) Comes attached to a class with full spellcasting, as opposed to a class with only master martial weapons and a non-attack key stat.

It probably should scale more aggressively if the envoy is intended to be more of a Striker, or they should have many more tactics that do other things (like the Commander) if they're supposed to be more of a martial support unit.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Yes Get'Em! deals more damage which is good but yet only compounds the issue of knocking the target of Get'Em! Out which once again wastes the debuff since now you need to yet again either Re-Apply with Change of Plans if you want the rest of your party to benefit from it.

As for Bard, Exorcist said it right.

a) Has lingering composition so you don't need to repeatedly use it
b) Is a 60ft emanation for your allies which is somewhat easier targeting than one enemy in 60ft
c) Applies to your allies, rather than an enemy, so is not at risk of going away if the enemy dies unlike Get Em.
d) Comes attached to a class with full spellcasting, as opposed to a class with only master martial weapons and a non-attack key stat.

Spells to consider from Bard) Fear, Synesthesia, Heroism. Only to name a few.

And we know the higher level Casters get the better spells like Fear become. IT is one of those things where we need to consider what the Enovy is doing, is it suppose to be a Thaumaturge then I feel like it has missed the mark since it deals less damage and doesn't have the incredible versatility of the Thaumaturge.

[Arachnofiend]

Get Em has been better than I thought it would be in play. The reflex penalty is a meaningful advantage for the action in a world where the Soldier exists. Class's biggest issue is a lack of interesting decisions really, since Get Em does leave you with a very inflexible routine.

[Ascalaphus]

Maybe there should be a class feature that allows directives to linger for an extra round, so that you're not spamming the same thing every time?

Sorta like how 99% of the bards I see people playing past level 1 turn out to use Lingering Performance.

[Arachnofiend]

Having finished Cosmic Birthday I can officially say that I was a bit too even-handed in my last post and the Envoy is genuinely just boring as hell. May be the least inspired class in the playtest. Size Up and all the minor benefits that come with it simply do not exist; it's more restrictive and requires a more psychic player than even premaster Investigator did. I never got to claim the bonus, and I don't think there was ever a point where I reasonably could have. And even if I did, what does a locked in CHA/DEX class need Recall Knowledge bonuses for?

The real problem is the genuine lack of choices in combat, though. What would I ever do other than Get Em->Strike->Strike? Combat is too spread out for demoralize to be of much use, most fights stay well outside of the 30 ft range for that. The class desperately needs more directives, the only one in the future I see as being worth using is just Show Em What You Got at 13 and even that is just "use it on your first turn", no real decision to be made. We're rolling up new characters for a level 5 playtest so I'll be switching to a Witchwarper with an Aeon Rifle.