A couple issues with the Tian Xia Aloof Firmament Magus.


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


1 person marked this as a favorite.

This Hybrid Study seems pretty good overall, but I'm confused as to why the Conflux Spell has the Manipulate trait, and partly with its 4th level feat.

During Arcane Cascade, this Hybrid Study ignores reactions when it uses Fly, Leap, High Jump, or Long Jump. This should synergise with the Conflux Spell which allows you to Fly up to your speed and make a Strike, but the spell has the manipulate trait which seems like anti-synergy. Usually when you Spellstrike, you're ending your turn next to an enemy, meaning that you're likely going to trigger a reaction by casting it, making that part of the Arcane Cascade Stance worthless. Usually you can avoid triggering the reactions from enemies who you aren't right next to, especially when you aren't flying.

Secondly, it's 4th level Feat allows you to take a reaction to Leap, High Jump, or Long Jump immediately after hitting a target with a Spellstrike. The movement doesn't trigger reactions from the target. The issue here is that (at least at low to mid levels when enemies usually only have one reaction for Reactive Strike) you've already triggered their reaction with your Spellstrike which makes that whole part of the feat pointless.

Not to say that this Hybrid Study is bad, far from it, it is arguably better than Laughing Shadow. They have incredible mobility through their Conflux Spell and that 4th level feat.

Overall, while the Hybrid Study is great, it seems to have some anti-synergy within it's kit due to the Manipulate trait on both Spellstrike and it's Conflux Spell.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The inclusion of Manipulate is a bit anti-synergistic, but my guess is it's there to encourage using Sky Laughs at Waves only after you've entered Arcane Cascade, where it should (and they should make this more clear) allow you to avoid provoking a reaction. If you use it as the opening action of your turn/combat, then it has the balancing factor of provoking reaction.

I don't think the rest works as you describe though?

It still takes an action to go into Arcane Cascade to gain the Study's benefit. Additionally, the Conflux allows you to make a Strike (1 action), not a Spellstrike (2 actions). AFAIK those two aren't interchangeable, so you couldn't Conflux > Arcane Cascade > Spellstrike in a single turn.

Seems like they wanted these things to be done over subsequent turns. Something like:
Turn 1) 1 action spell > 1 action arcane cascade > 1 action conflux to move to target + strike (presumably w/o provoking enemy reaction)
Turn 2) 2 action spellstrike > reaction to move away (again w/o provoking enemy reaction) > last action for whatever


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Matheren wrote:

Seems like they wanted these things to be done over subsequent turns. Something like:

Turn 1) 1 action spell > 1 action arcane cascade > 1 action conflux to move to target + strike (presumably w/o provoking enemy reaction)
Turn 2) 2 action spellstrike > reaction to move away (again w/o provoking enemy reaction) > last action for whatever

Using a Conflux spell recharges your Spellstrike. So the optimal use is when you're already within Striking distance of a target, having expended your Spellstrike either on the previous turn or the same turn.

For the 4th-level feat, I'm guessing the point is that using Spellstrike already triggers the most common reaction, Reactive Strike, so the movement from the feat not triggering is going to come into play very rarely.

Scarab Sages

Arcane Cascade doesn’t help keep the conflux spell from triggering reactive strike. If the spell has Manipulate, then casting the spell will trigger Arcane Cascade before you move anywhere.

For the feat, my best guess is that it’s for when you are fighting Monks.


Nightwhisper wrote:

Using a Conflux spell recharges your Spellstrike. So the optimal use is when you're already within Striking distance of a target, having expended your Spellstrike either on the previous turn or the same turn.

For the 4th-level feat, I'm guessing the point is that using Spellstrike already triggers the most common reaction, Reactive Strike, so the movement from the feat not triggering is going to come into play very rarely.

Yep I'm aware of the optimal use of Conflux after Spellstrike, but I think this just highlights OP's issue even more.

The 2-action Conflux triggers reactive strike for a full move + strike; compare that to Laughing Shadows, whose Conflux also gives a move + strike for 1-action. Theirs only gives half move, but it also doesn't provoke reactive strike (because teleport I guess?).

Then you get your own (feat taxed) reaction that lets you move while avoiding a reactive strike... which can only be used *after* a Spellstrike that would already have provoked it? And this only applies to the creature hit by the Spellstrike, so not really applicable for escaping a group.

Ferious Thune wrote:
Arcane Cascade doesn’t help keep the conflux spell from triggering reactive strike. If the spell has Manipulate, then casting the spell will trigger Arcane Cascade before you move anywhere.

I don't understand what you mean by that second sentence. You have to use an action to enter Arcane Cascade stance, don't you? So you wouldn't enter the stance until after you resolve the move + strike from the Conflux, and triggering the reactive strike either way.

Ultimately I just don't really understand the point of giving Aloof Firmament this passive bonus of being able to ignore reactions while using specific move actions during Arcane Cascade, if your two most common uses of those move actions (your Conflux and your reaction feat) can't even receive that passive benefit?

Going back to the Laughing Shadows study, their Conflux directly benefits from their passive, because their move speed is directly increased while in Arcane Cascade, making up for the Conflux only allowing half movement speed.

Scarab Sages

I meant trigger Reactive Strike. You could be in Arcane Cascade before casting the conflux spell, after casting another spell, which would make the movement from the conflux spell not provoke. But if you are next to an enemy when you cast the conflux spell, say to maneuver around for a flank before you strike, you will provoke from casting the conflux spell.

I’m agreeing with you, I think, that Manipulate on the conflux spell conflicts with Arcane Cascade giving you movement that doesn’t trigger reactions.

I think if you are in Arcane Cascade and you cast the spell while not adjacent or within reach of a creature, then you could move adjacent to them without triggering reactive strike, since when you cast the spell you weren’t threatened, and arcane cascade makes your movement not provoke. That would be the combo for it.

What I meant for the reaction feat is that a Monk may have Stand Still, which triggers on movement, but not Manipulate. Creatures might similarly have a reaction that triggers on movement. If you aren’t in Arcane Cascade (and honestly, most Magi I see ignore it), then you could Spellstrike such an enemy and not provoke, then move away without provoking. Without needing to be in Arcane Cascade first.


Ahh I gotcha.

Yeah, I'd love to get an answer on the Manipulate trait being there. I'm not sure why it's on either one in this book, unless they also intend to go back and add it to all prior Hybrid Studies? That seems like it'd be overly punishing, when you're already risking the reactions during at least some Spellstrikes.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / General Discussion / A couple issues with the Tian Xia Aloof Firmament Magus. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.