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This is a class that I have had some experience with in the field tests and not much has changed in the lower levels since then, take anything 5+ with a grain of salt.
CLASS FEATURES
GET 'EM
- Similar to the FT, the issues with this is that it lasts only 1 turn, is single target and is a circumstance penalty so it doesn't stack with off-guard.
- A lot of the envoy's turns are Get 'Em, Strike, X. The class certainly needs to be Striking as it is a martial chassis and should be making at least 1 strike to meaningfully contribute to combat. This means it can be hard to use the 30ft range charisma skill actions, e.g. unless you already started in a position to do so. IMO there should be some action compression for Get Em/directives, perhaps related to your Leadership style. Currently the leadership style benefit of using another action to Lead By Example aren't particularly worthwhile on the 3 class feature directives as two of them can trigger Lead By Example by Striking.
- The +1/2 cha to self damage makes up for the lack of damage ranged weapons do at level 1-3.
- The single target nature means that if the target dies, unlike a Bard whose benefits will just continue to other targets because it buffs the allies, the Envoy's benefit just ends until their next turn. It isn't a significantly better benefit than Courageous Anthem, and the bard is a full caster otherwise, I'm not sure why get em feels so bad relatively.
- As it stands you don't get any method to improve the action economy of this until level 16 with Extend Directive, and you don't get to deal with the single target nature of it until level 18.
LEADERSHIP STYLES
- I mentioned in Get 'Em that these mostly don't do much, there is actually a couple of exceptions though
- Guns Blazing gives you improved initiative as a bonus feat, that's okay.
- Infosphere Director is probably the best one at level 6+, because you can take Automatic Knowledge to recall knowledge as a free action once per round, which lets you Lead by Example on a directive, meaning you have much freer action economy to do whatever you want with directives than any other leadership style. It doesn't really matter what you roll on the knowledge check, just that you used the action.
OTHER STUFF
- Mostly a charisma based skill character
TACTICIAN
- Defender feels like the worst one by far because its the only one you don't have any control over, and given you need to choose this at the start of the day you can't opportunistically decide to give someone the defender role.
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FEATS
Just going to point out the ones that are too good or too weak
- Watch Out! being circumstance and therefore not stacking with cover is kind of awkward.
- Danger Sense is probably one of its best feats, giving 2 characters effectively advantage on initiative.
- Why does Hang In There have a 1 day lockout instead of a 10 minute lockout?
- That'll Show Em! Is one of the freest reaction attack triggers ever, even freer than Hair Trigger, at least its level 12. Also can get ridiculous with Hypernerve stacking.
- Know Your Target feels like a level 2 feat, why is it level 16?
- Extend Directive feels mandatory.
- So does Get Them.
I agree that the Envoy's action economy feels altogether far too rigid. At this stage, I feel directives should be stances, so that you can apply a persistent effect that you can then augment if you want through the Lead by Example action on any given turn. The fact that there are so few directive options is also strange, and I feel many more should be added at level 1.
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For all the things you think are weak because they're circumstance, what other type would you suggest for something that is brief and circumstantial?
This is something of a problem with trying to shoehorn everything into a 3 type bonus/penalty, the lack of stacking is fine when considering spells (so you don’t get caster 1 doing frighten, caster 2 doing sicken, caster 3 doing clumsy and they all stack), but when dealing with actual class features, and given that we never end up seeing item bonus/penalty outside of magic items, it becomes a lot more limiting. Class X cannot be played with class Y because both their bonus/penalties are the same type.
So I’d just make Get Em’s penalty untyped, and make Watch Out’s bonus status.
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While I'd rather not resort to untyped penalties, the problem with Get 'Em is that it conflicts with off-guard, a condition that is generally quite common to apply. Perhaps it'll be less common in a more ranged-centric meta, but I think we can do better with what is arguably the Envoy's central and most important directive.
Here's what I'd propose:
So rather than impose a penalty that can be easily overriden, you'd make yourself exceptionally good at giving your allies bonuses against selected targets. Not only would this eventually let you apply ridiculous circumstance bonuses to attack rolls and save DCs (+4 on an Operative!), it'd stack with off-guard and other conditions too, making the Envoy genuinely amazing at helping out their team and singling out single opponents.
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I want this class to be more support focused, and I feel it is lacking combat-wise in that regard.
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- Get Em! is the main feature of this class and I think it is too weak after low levels. Envoy should get more directives and not need to spend class feats to obtain them necessarily.
- Steel Yourselves! is just a terrible ability. It is once per hour, barely gives any Temp HP, and it costs an action from you and your party member. The lead by example effect is pretty good though, can conflict with other buffs however.
- All these abilities which boost their skills are all over the place. I like Size Up, maybe more of the class budget should go into this ability, and there should be more feats to expand on this. Having 8 features which enhance skills feels messy.
I suspect Paizo doesn't want Envoy to step on the toes of the Commander. Not sure what the solution here is, but I wish this class had a greater focus on support. Pathfinder/Starfinder is not lacking in ranged damage dealers, but is definitely lacking in martial supports.
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I suspect Paizo doesn't want Envoy to step on the toes of the Commander. Not sure what the solution here is, but I wish this class had a greater focus on support. Pathfinder/Starfinder is not lacking in ranged damage dealers, but is definitely lacking in martial supports.
I'd say that the Commander and Envoy are fundamentally different enough classes that they're unlikely to tread on each other's toes unless one tries really hard to play like the other. The Commander's all about using their own actions to make their allies do things with amazing action economy, whereas the Envoy's a skill monkey who's also good at team buffs. I completely agree that the Envoy is really messily-designed right now, though, and their class features feel chock-full of number boosters that should've been left behind in 1e, particularly the multiple uses of a per-day ability.
Following up on the above, my suggestions would be:
So rather than being this messy class with lots of different core features to track that don't necessarily add all that much gameplay, you'd have a distinct core of "buff yourself and your teammates with directives, lead by example, and flexibly adapt your skillset from day to day", which would be both distinct from every other class and hopefully something that'd be fun and interesting to play with.
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I suspect Paizo doesn't want Envoy to step on the toes of the Commander. Not sure what the solution here is, but I wish this class had a greater focus on support. Pathfinder/Starfinder is not lacking in ranged damage dealers, but is definitely lacking in martial supports.I'd say that the Commander and Envoy are fundamentally different enough classes that they're unlikely to tread on each other's toes unless one tries really hard to play like the other. The Commander's all about using their own actions to make their allies do things with amazing action economy, whereas the Envoy's a skill monkey who's also good at team buffs. I completely agree that the Envoy is really messily-designed right now, though, and their class features feel chock-full of number boosters that should've been left behind in 1e, particularly the multiple uses of a per-day ability.
Following up on the above, my suggestions would be:
Gut the number boosters from the Envoy's class features, specifically Wise to the Game, Practiced/Savvy/Effortless Influencer, Hidden/Indiscernible Agenda, and Silver Tongue's mechanics beyond the class DC bump.
Take the higher-level directives out of the class features, and either make them into early-level feats or have each subclass give its own bonus directive (or both).
Rework leadership styles so that it's less about getting bonus skill increases and feats (which you get plenty of already) and more about getting new directives and new ways of leading by example (that can't be made into free actions unless that's explicitly the intention). Alternatively, streamline the Envoy even further by doing away with subclasses and giving them even more build flexibility through feats.
I'd personally lean towards making Size Up and Saw It Coming into feats that can then be built upon, rather than their own class feature.
Combine Adaptive Talent, Improvised Mastery, and Legendary Improvisation into a 1st-level feature that lets you gain temporary skill feats...
I think I mostly agree here. Although I think the class should get some directives for free, kinda like how the Commander gets free Tactics. I personally really like Size Up, but I'm not going to die on the hill of it needing to be a class feature.
Temp HP abilities are balanced against the force field armor upgrade, which only can be used three times per day, costs a lot, and takes up a slot. All day resourcesless temp HP sources are going to be worse than that at comparable levels.
Get Em notably can't be made a status bonus either because then it wouldn't stack with Frightened, which like half of the class's good feats are devoted to applying. If it can't be typeless it probably just needs to apply off-guard directly.
Are there really that many things that apply off-guard easily at range? (One melee specialist may happen, but two will probably not be common.)
Old options:
1. Hiding/Creating a Distraction/Invisibility. Resource/action expensive, unreliable for the skill options, self only. One action to automatically grant half the benefit (plus some damage) to everyone is better than this.
2. Existing PF2 spells that apply off-guard. I don't remember the various options in PC1 and PC2. Pro: They benefit the whole party at range and may last longer than one round when they stick. But these fall within both action and resource intensive. I'll note new SF2 spells that do off-guard below.
New options: (ranged only, or benefit allies who are at range)
3. Cornered Fury - Ysoki, self only, must be critically hit first.
4. Distant Feint envoy feat: Uh, ok. 15' and less reliable than Get 'Em. Only benefits Envoy. Weird option on this class.
5. Striker Operative Overwhelming Strike - One of the options is off-guard, would be a party benefit.
6. Hampering Shot Operative feat - Trades an aim compression action for normal aim/strike action economy and the off-guard. Good for the purpose, but opportunity cost and you will sometimes miss.
7. Fish in a Barrel Operative feat - High level and unlikely to happen, but will do it if you crit.
8. Dance! Soldier feat 10 - This is a reasonably reliable one applying to anything that is suppressed by the soldier. Good once available.
9. Master Troll skill feat - It's lacking a range, and level 15. Normal issues of skill options, but this one at least benefits the whole party rather than being selfish.
10. Stumble cantrip - If you want to burn two actions from a spellcaster and hope they fail a reflex save, this can be the way you apply off-guard. I think your casters have better things to do even with cantrips.
11. Wisp Ally rank 1 spell - Kind of like Stumble, but better. Can be a clutch (and when heightened) mass method of semi-reliably trying to apply and maintain off-guard on enemies, but they get saves and you have to cast and sustain a slotted spell.
Aaaand...that's it! Only three of these seem like reasonably reliable no/low resource methods to apply off-guard to something that the entire party can benefit from and compete with Get 'Em: a Striker Operative at level 9, any operative investing a feat at level 6 and forgoing their own combat flexibility, and a soldier at level 10 investing a feat. If these builds want to do that, and hit, they'll outdo the AC contribution of the envoy by 1. If they miss (or save against area fire) the envoy exceeds you by 1. (And the envoy always gives the bonus damage.)
Keeping Get 'Em circumstance seems fine. If a Soldier or Operative successfully off-guards someone you can split your efforts, or add your damage bonus on top of what they did, or if they miss you're there with the backup consolation -1. And plenty of parties will lack a Soldier or Operative doing these options. Finally, the Soldier doing this is not benefiting from doing it (off-target isn't helping his area fire saves), and the Operative isn't benefiting on his first shot trying to apply the condition. Get 'Em not only works for everyone, it works for the Envoy himself on his first shot.
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Temp HP abilities are balanced against the force field armor upgrade, which only can be used three times per day, costs a lot, and takes up a slot. All day resourcesless temp HP sources are going to be worse than that at comparable levels.
There are options in Envoy which give way more Temporary Hitpoints for a much lower cost. I don't really see why Temp HP should be lower than healing. Also an armor upgrade is not really analogous to a class feature.
The issue with Temp HP being too low is that they aren't going to actually keep someone up to soak an extra attack or turn. At level 7, Steel Yourselves! gives 5 Temp HP, how often is this actually making a difference? You're spending two actions total to achieve this.
Compare this to Hang in there! Which gives 11 Temp HP on a successful DC 20 Diplomacy check, or 18 on a critical success. Sure it only works once per ally, but it's resourceless and will likely prevent a hit.
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As for your other comment. I'm not sure why you're excluding options which are "costly" resources. These options are still used within the game, and are useful for the whole party. All you need is one enemy to be Off Guard and it's likely going to be better to hit that enemy over someone with Get Em!. Limiting it to only ranged options makes no sense either.
Also my whole point is that if you're in a party who easily applies Off Guard, you're going to be overshadowed by them. The damage boost from Get Em! is not very good compared to the extra -1 to AC. The Envoy should not be the "consolidation" for the striker classes when it comes to support from their main feature. Envoy shouldn't feel like they're being overshadowed in a party that applies Off Guard easily. Furthermore, parties with melee characters who flank and/or trip are going to make the Envoy feel un-needed.
Ranged Trip is also a trait many weapons will have.
Off-Guard is a Circumstance penalty though?