Operative feats - first impression


Operative Class Discussion


I'll write something more expansive on the weekend when I actually have the time, but here is a brief first impression.

Overall, I'd say the feat lineup is more on the solid side than not. Level 1 seems like it has only feats that are actually worth taking! But after that it is kind of a mixed bag, as many feats also seem to be significantly too high-level. Which is not a rarity, but I would really like if we didn't repeat this particular mistake. On the other hand, there are also relatively few feats that are just straight-up bad.

Just the immediate standout examples:

The Good

-> Weakening Shot (1st) - the obvious lvl 1 standout to me. Hot damn is it good!

-> Kill Steal (2nd) - it might be somewhat situational, but damn is it cool (read: funny) and good when it works! A great example for how a situational feat should look.

-> Hair Trigger (2nd) - hahahaha

-> Destructive Dash (6th) - Very cool and you should know if it will be useful in advance (even when picking it)

-> Sprint (10th) - Another very good example how a situational feat should look. You could argue that the level is a little high, but at the end of the day, when the situation comes up - which shouldn't be too uncommon - this feat will really save your bacon.

-> Explosive Deflection (16th) - extremely cool and very very useful to make the enemy taste their own nades and keep your team safe.

The Bad

-> Double Tap (2nd) - how a situational feat shouldn't look. "My enemies need to have significant resistances to all my primary weapons" is already quite situational. Then also having to hit two attacks in a row to have a chance to receive literally any benefit from this feat is too much. At that point I look for other ways to circumvent the resistance or just try to contribute in other ways. The level 16 upgrade is far, far too late to matter.

-> Bloody Wounds (4th) - Devastating Aim exists and so do/will other items or effects (such as crit spec) that do bleed damage. Bleed damage doesn't stack.

-> Running Shot (12th) - Mobile Aim is literally level 1 (and well placed there) and this isn't too much more useful. Yes, you can theoretically run to full cover and make an almost completely safe shot every other round. But how useful is that, really? Dramatically too expensive.

-> Bullet Fever (14th) - While the idea is cool, is it really a good idea to give the player a feat that encourages them to (even unintentionally) try to kill their character as often as possible? Because with those downsides it is a gamble if that character even makes it through the next round without fully dying.

-> Cloaking Field (16th) - A 2nd level spell I can cast for free is cool, even if it is often only every other fight. But at level 16?!?? Especially when the real use is out of combat? I can just buy a bunch of dirt cheap level 3 spell gems for the same effect. My spellcaster friend can even activate them for me, if I don't want to invest a little more to do it myself.

-> Relentless Aim (18th) - Possibly the only feat less useful than Cloaking Field. Because it does literally nothing. Aim already allows you to ignore greater cover just inherently.


Karmagator wrote:


The Bad

-> Double Tap (2nd) - how a situational feat shouldn't look. "My enemies need to have significant resistances to all my primary weapons" is already quite situational. Then also having to hit two attacks in a row to have a chance to receive literally any benefit from this feat is too much. At that point I look for other ways to circumvent the resistance or just try to contribute in other ways. The level 16 upgrade is far, far too late to matter.

You always get a benefit. "You Aim, then make two Strikes against your mark."

It's an action compressor first, a way to overcome resistance with your second shot, uh, second.

It's a trade off against a different Aim+ action compressor feat with various benefits and downsides, but if your desired actions in a round are for example to Aim, stride, and fire twice, both Mobile Aim and Double Tap let you do it, but Double Tap has extra benefits. If you want to draw a weapon, Aim, and fire twice, both Double Tap and Instinctive Aim will do it in three actions, but Double Tap still has the extra sauce.

Karmagator wrote:
-> Running Shot (12th) - Mobile Aim is literally level 1 (and well placed there) and this isn't too much more useful. Yes, you can theoretically run to full cover and make an almost completely safe shot every other round. But how useful is that, really? Dramatically too expensive.

You can do it every round, because Running Shot is only two actions, leaving you one action to do a full stride, a second stride allows a shot to originate from it at any point, and the aim/strike. It's the old Spring Attack/Shot on the Run. Total immunity (walls/doors permitting, until they devote themselves to Readying or chasing you down) every round while allowing one aimed shot seems quite nice to me.


Karmagator wrote:
-> Hair Trigger (2nd) - hahahaha

This does feel odd, I agree. It could just be my PF2E brain, but getting Reactive Strike as a feat, earlier than other classes are able to, and piling a bunch of reach on top of it is a lot of heavy lifting for a 2nd-level feat.

I guess a saving grace is that operative has no ability to gain extra reactions, at least that I can see, but still. Feels like an outlier to me, and something I'd take on pretty much every operative.


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I want to make an honorable mention for Switch Aim which is perfectly fine in my opinion but I'm pretty sure RAW it wouldn't work in certain scenarios that it really should. Most notably, destroying a construct or undead doesn't technically make it either Unconscious or Dying, if I'm not mistaken. I think the wording should be changed to (or updated with) "reduced to 0 hit points" or similar.


Perpdepog wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
-> Hair Trigger (2nd) - hahahaha
I guess a saving grace is that operative has no ability to gain extra reactions

Um... Have you looked at Operative's level 20 feats?


DMurnett wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
-> Hair Trigger (2nd) - hahahaha
I guess a saving grace is that operative has no ability to gain extra reactions
Um... Have you looked at Operative's level 20 feats?

Indeed but it competes with a really good lvl 20 feat. The choice is difficult


Karmagator wrote:
-> Bullet Fever (14th) - While the idea is cool, is it really a good idea to give the player a feat that encourages them to (even unintentionally) try to kill their character as often as possible? Because with those downsides it is a gamble if that character even makes it through the next round without fully dying.

I see it more as a last ditch solution its not something u will intentionally aspire to but boy are the enemies going to get surprised at their moment of triump. Its very cinematic as well.


Erk Ander wrote:
DMurnett wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
-> Hair Trigger (2nd) - hahahaha
I guess a saving grace is that operative has no ability to gain extra reactions
Um... Have you looked at Operative's level 20 feats?
Indeed but it competes with a really good lvl 20 feat. The choice is difficult

It's also something we've seen before on other classes, like fighter, and it's level 20. That was why I didn't mention it.

(Also I think I got a good look at the level 20 feats like twenty minutes after sending that post.)


The issue I see with Hair Trigger as currently implemented is that it’s not truly a reaction: normally, reactions are fairly conditional, so even if some have pretty broad triggers, like Reactive Strike, they’re limited by other factors like range, so you’re not guaranteed to use your reaction every round. Not so for Hair Trigger, which has all of Reactive Strike’s broad triggers — including manipulate actions, so it will trigger whenever someone fires a gun — and none of the range limitations. It is effectively a near-guaranteed, MAP-free extra attack every round on a class with legendary gun proficiency, which is also likely to mean lots of disrupted actions. Triggering a reaction at a range like that I think can be fine, so long as the trigger is far more specific than it is now — and even then, the feat should probably be higher-level than just 2nd.

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