Rogue vs Swashbuckler PC1 vs PC2

[ElementalofCuteness]

Which is the better class now? In terms of utility, usefulness, combat proficiency

[Ascalaphus]

Rogue was considered one of the strongest classes in legacy and got various little buffs in the remaster. They have the best skills hands-down, sneak attack is a lot of damage and off-guard is easy to achieve. In terms of to-hit accuracy, they're a normal martial with good reason to use agile weapons. They have great saving throws.

Basically, on sheer numbers, they're pretty impossible to compete with for other classes (except Fighter). You have to look at different things that another class might bring, for example:
- cool feats & abilities
- interesting routines in combat

So what does the swashbuckler bring there?
- Vivacious Speed is actually a pretty sizable speed increase, and it's one of the few in the game that applies to all your speeds. So if for example you're trying to make a lizardfolk wall-crawler that wants a Climb speed that really gets you there, the swashbuckler can do that.
- Opportune Riposte gets better at higher level play when you run into fights with for example five mooks who crit-fail their attacks pretty often.
- As for routines, the whole up and down of gaining panache can be pretty entertaining.

While swashbuckler's been teased in blogs etc. to gain a whole lot of improvements, I doubt in sheer brute numbers it's going to move past the rogue. If it had, you would have heard it by now (enough people got their books).

The really big improvement that's been revealed is that gaining panache is MUCH easier than before. New swash gains panache-for-one-turn when you fail the skill check, so it should be possible to do a finisher most turns without worrying, even against bosses. This is really a game-changer improvement that takes it from being a cripplingly weak class to a solid middle of the pack one.

As a class on its own, it's going to be much more fun to play, with many of the previous pain points solved. I would say, you don't play it because it's a high power class. The best reason to play it is because you like the panache/finisher thing and want to play a bit wild chancy character. The sheer numbers are not going to put it in the top 3 classes or anything. But they are high enough that you can play any normal adventure and be okay.

[Gortle]

The swashbukler is better with a select set of skills due to its circumstance bonuses. The rogue gets more skills.

The rogue gains sneak attack and the swashbuckler gains panache at a fairly similar frequency - after a while it is almost automatic.

Both do similar damage but the rogue can do it a second time in the turn whereas the swash is pushed into his panache routine - which has different benefits.

The swashbuckler has more HP.

Both can debuff.

Both suffer against precision immunty monsters (ghosts and oozes)

Overall it is a lot closer than it has been. They aren't too far apart and the choice is going to be about roleplaying.

[YuriP]

In terms of skills:

Rogues: Have way more skills both in number and in legendary proficiency and the double of skill feats. What's makes then a fantastic skill monkey.

Swashbucklers: The new Stylish Combatant gives a +1 circumstance bonus to skills with Bravado trait (depends from your Style) in combat. After level 11 they can use this bonus in exploration too what can make Swashbucklers a bit more stronger then rogues in these skills (still depends from char atributes too). So it won't be hard to see a Raskal Swashbuckler having a higher chance to disable a trap what's pretty curious.

In terms of combat:
Rogues are still better in DPR in general. Due Gang Up they usually doesn't need to do anything extra to get Sneak Attack bonuses and Opportune Backstab also usually grants an extra MAPless Strike with all its Sneak Attack extra damage and Debilitation pretty frequently. Swashbucklers have stronger one hit damage with Finishers specially after get Bleeding Finisher or Perfect Finisher or Lethal Finisher or Illimitable Finisher but once that finisher is your last attack in your round and are unable to use it in reactions it lags behind the more consistent precision damage that rogues have.
That said Swashbucklers now runs pretty well with thrown weapon once that get Panache is way easier to get now and rogues have additional difficulties to make ranged sneak attacks and Opportune Backstab doesn't works at range.

It's not a mechanical comparison but Swashbuckler is ways more funnier now due how most creative ways to get panache. It's very fun to see the swashbuckler tanking some good (or bad) situation to make a smile and panache! :P
Rogue are in general a more serious martial.

[Deriven Firelion]

What if you do a swashbuckler with rogue arcehtype now? I think that would be pretty dangerous.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

rogue was much better than swashbuckler

now the gap is even bigger

riposte get no buff

while rogue get nimble strike which is much better than level 18 swashbuckler feat

even with endless reaction feat at level 20 swashbuckler still isn't better at riposte than rogue

[exequiel759]

Rogue is still a stronger class, but at least now the swashbuckler has a niche. A swashbucker is more accurate in the skills it has the bravado trait than a rogue, but a rogue still has more skill feats, skill increases, and does more overall damage because they can sneak attack more than once. A swashbuckler is also a bit more tanky due to its 10 + Con HP too. Before I wouldn't even considered playing a swashbuckler, now they can stand on their own.

[Tremaine]

Swashbucklers can't perform what I at least see as the core of that fantasy: lightning bladework that has crippled the target before a bond one liner and the coup de grace,for instance the rapier and dagger fight in Alariste, the saber duel in The Deluge, the Laurus Nobilis Messer fight on YouTube (some are more drawn out, but it is always blistering speed, and focus against a single target).

Now they are a long setup single heavy attack class which is...a choice I guess?

[Finoan]

Tremaine wrote:

Swashbucklers can't perform what I at least see as the core of that fantasy: lightning bladework that has crippled the target before a bond one liner and the coup de grace,for instance the rapier and dagger fight in Alariste, the saber duel in The Deluge, the Laurus Nobilis Messer fight on YouTube (some are more drawn out, but it is always blistering speed, and focus against a single target).

I see that as more a factor of designing a character in a TTRPG rather than writing a character's script for a manga, movie, or TV show.

If one of the classes in the game could reliably cripple a target at the same action cost as combat banter, then that class would be horribly, brokenly, OP.

[Ludovicus]

Tremaine wrote:

Swashbucklers can't perform what I at least see as the core of that fantasy: lightning bladework that has crippled the target before a bond one liner and the coup de grace

This is a good description of the braggart swashbuckler's style. But, if you really prioritize "crippling" a target, I assure you that the thief rogue will fill the fantasy perfectly well.

Tremaine wrote:

Now they are a long setup single heavy attack class which is...a choice I guess?

No, they're not. The bravado trait makes getting panache much easier (and, hence, no longer dependent on potentially long and painful setups), and it's usually perfectly viable--indeed, often optimal--to use your finisher as your second attack in a round rather than your first.

[TheWayofPie]

They’ve always been that way by default in PF2e. I don’t know why the One-Hit playstyle is being touted as a new thing.

That being said if you want flurry of attacks Swashbuckler one would take Combination and Precise Finisher at the earliest opportunity. My only gripe with it is Combination Finisher should be an earlier feat. Like 2nd or 4th level to get the build online early.

Flurry style Sashbucklers also want to take advantage of the agile trait and pick up The Bigger They Are at later tier 3 play.

And finally Eternal Confidence at 19th level allows Confident/Precise Finisher to apply to all other Finishers. This is when you would grab Perfect Finisher to maximize the chance of your MAP attack working. Then the new 20th level feat that lets you do two Finishers at once and even apply Bravado to the strike.

Even without those feats Normal Strike + Confident Finisher tends to do more DPR than just a Confident Finisher.

[Tremaine]

Finoan wrote:

Tremaine wrote:

Swashbucklers can't perform what I at least see as the core of that fantasy: lightning bladework that has crippled the target before a bond one liner and the coup de grace,for instance the rapier and dagger fight in Alariste, the saber duel in The Deluge, the Laurus Nobilis Messer fight on YouTube (some are more drawn out, but it is always blistering speed, and focus against a single target).

I see that as more a factor of designing a character in a TTRPG rather than writing a character's script for a manga, movie, or TV show.

If one of the classes in the game could reliably cripple a target at the same action cost as combat banter, then that class would be horribly, brokenly, OP.

True, but applying debuffs by strikes in exchange for reducing damage done could work, and 'crippling' was the same kind of hyperbole that has barbarians 'cleaving enemies in half'

[Tremaine]

Ludovicus wrote:

Tremaine wrote:

Swashbucklers can't perform what I at least see as the core of that fantasy: lightning bladework that has crippled the target before a bond one liner and the coup de grace

This is a good description of the braggart swashbuckler's style. But, if you really prioritize "crippling" a target, I assure you that the thief rogue will fill the fantasy perfectly well.

Tremaine wrote:

Now they are a long setup single heavy attack class which is...a choice I guess?

No, they're not. The bravado trait makes getting panache much easier (and, hence, no longer dependent on potentially long and painful setups), and it's usually perfectly viable--indeed, often optimal--to use your finisher as your second attack in a round rather than your first.

. Still trapped in the 1 ok attack, 1 bad attack and think of something to do, which is guaranteed to be less fun than attacking regime.

[PossibleCabbage]

Gortle wrote:

The swashbukler is better with a select set of skills due to its circumstance bonuses. The rogue gets more skills.

The rogue gains sneak attack and the swashbuckler gains panache at a fairly similar frequency - after a while it is almost automatic.

Both do similar damage but the rogue can do it a second time in the turn whereas the swash is pushed into his panache routine - which has different benefits.

The swashbuckler has more HP.

Both can debuff.

Both suffer against precision immunty monsters (ghosts and oozes)

Overall it is a lot closer than it has been. They aren't too far apart and the choice is going to be about roleplaying.

Another thing is that a Swashbuckler functions much better as a support character and off-tank than the Rogue does. Things like One-For-All, Goading Feint, Buckler Dance, Antagonize, Enjoy the Show, etc. let you take the Swashbuckler in a very different direction than "you are competing with the rogue for DPR".

[TheWayofPie]

Here is a good off-tank build.

Style: Braggart

STR +2, DEX +4, CON +1, WIS +0, INT +0, CHA +2

Natural Ambition: Disarming Flair (Another way to get Panache)/You're Next (Probably will Errata'd to work like Remastered Rogues)
Level 1: Extravagant Parry
Level 2: Antagonize
Level 4: Enjoy the Show (Wording Allows Acrobatic Performer to work if you want to)
Level 6: Reactive Strike
Level 8: Filler (Probably Stunning Finisher if you're leaning on disabling enemies)
Level 10: Reflexive Riposte (if you want to punish more on miss)/Derring-Do (if you want to lean more into your debuffs)

[Gortle]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Gortle wrote:

The swashbukler is better with a select set of skills due to its circumstance bonuses. The rogue gets more skills.

The rogue gains sneak attack and the swashbuckler gains panache at a fairly similar frequency - after a while it is almost automatic.

Both do similar damage but the rogue can do it a second time in the turn whereas the swash is pushed into his panache routine - which has different benefits.

The swashbuckler has more HP.

Both can debuff.

Both suffer against precision immunty monsters (ghosts and oozes)

Overall it is a lot closer than it has been. They aren't too far apart and the choice is going to be about roleplaying.

Another thing is that a Swashbuckler functions much better as a support character and off-tank than the Rogue does. Things like One-For-All, Goading Feint, Buckler Dance, Antagonize, Enjoy the Show, etc. let you take the Swashbuckler in a very different direction than "you are competing with the rogue for DPR".

Gangup and Debilitations do help the Rogue do some support.

[Captain Morgan]

I think what the PC2 swashbuckler might be the best at is solo play.

-Good durability and great mobility, and solo play lets you be more defensive.

-Inherent skill bonuses give you versatility.

-The one big finisher strike per round works nicely with hit and run tactics.

Rogues aren't a bad choice either, and can cover a wider variety of skills. But with no allies they have a harder time getting flanking and they will draw all the aggro. They also have a harder time using hit and run.

This is irrelevant in 99% of Pathfinder play but I'm kinda curious to try a solo run with it.