I've always had an interest in divine ascension as a fantasy/rpg concept and the Wish ritual now expressly permits it for Pathfinder. I could not find any official word to clarify the intention behind it on the level of divinity achievable.
Is it like Nethys that a fully successful casting grants apotheosis into a true deity? Is it like the test of the Starstone that raises you no higher than a "living" god (also known as a demigod)?
AFAIK wish can't give you godhood because that would be way beyond the power of even a 10th-level spell. Also, the starstone doesn't turn you into a demigod, it turns you into a full fledged god. The only way to attain some semblance of godhood (because you don't even become a demigod with it) would be mythic powers which are being currently scheduled to release in War of Immortals.
exequiel759 wrote: AFAIK wish can't give you godhood because that would be way beyond the power of even a 10th-level spell. Also, the starstone doesn't turn you into a demigod, it turns you into a full fledged god. The only way to attain some semblance of godhood (because you don't even become a demigod with it) would be mythic powers which are being currently scheduled to release in War of Immortals. New Wish Ritual in the Remaster can explicitly turn you into a god, this is what the poster is referring to.
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Benjamin Tait wrote: exequiel759 wrote: AFAIK wish can't give you godhood because that would be way beyond the power of even a 10th-level spell. Also, the starstone doesn't turn you into a demigod, it turns you into a full fledged god. The only way to attain some semblance of godhood (because you don't even become a demigod with it) would be mythic powers which are being currently scheduled to release in War of Immortals. New Wish Ritual in the Remaster can explicitly turn you into a god, this is what the poster is referring to. That's right! The remaster Wish ritual is precisely what I am referring to.
And no, the Starstone test only raises you to a "living god", which is Pathfinder's parlance for demigod. Both Erik Mona and James Jacobs have confirmed this a few times at this comes up periodically. Every mortal that passed the test became a demigod, which they remained for quite some time before they completed their ascension into a true deity.
For example, Erik Mona confirms it directly here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1aj2909/can_a_demideity_face _the_starstone_test_and_fully/
I don't have the link handy but in the Ask James Jacobs thread he points this out as well, even noting that Norgorber fully ascended before Aroden did, Cayden possibly doing so, and Iomedae likely to have done so after his death, but all three having spent time as demigods before their apotheosis to full deities.
Cdawg wrote: I've always had an interest in divine ascension as a fantasy/rpg concept and the Wish ritual now expressly permits it for Pathfinder. I could not find any official word to clarify the intention behind it on the level of divinity achievable.
Is it like Nethys that a fully successful casting grants apotheosis into a true deity? Is it like the test of the Starstone that raises you no higher than a "living" god (also known as a demigod)?
As far as I can tell, the answer is pretty much "ask your GM." Wish has gotten even more handwavey as a ritual than it was as a spell. It's also very likely to either be the culmination of a campaign, or at least the culmination of a PC's story, so the actual particulars of how it functions are largely going to be a matter of table preference.
It would be a really fun campaign to run or play in, I'd think. Characters needing to climb to the heights of power to even attempt the ritual, and then needing to acquire the components to perform it, probably look for some more clement circumstances to perform the ritual in, and, assuming the goal is to become divine, safeguard against outside interference and circumvent any earlier safeguards put in place to stop someone from doing this very thing. Finding a way to undo an earlier wish made to prevent someone from wishing to be a god, etc. I think that'd be lots of fun.
I'm more interested in the intention behind the rule. Wish could always do anything a game master wanted it to do. This is the first time that I can recall that divinity was on the table as written expressly into the spell.
I think Paizo often takes the in-setting mortal perspective in that most mortals wouldn't really distinguish between a demigod and a true god other than the living god may be physically present. Just see like above that still folks assume the Starstone test makes you a full stop deity which of course it can in any individual's campaign but it is not the setting's assumption.
But for whatever reason, my reading strikes me that it leans into full true divinity, and I'm curious if that reading may have been what they had in mind, as well of the thoughts of my fellow Pathfinder fans.
Cdawg wrote: I'm more interested in the intention behind the rule. Wish could always do anything a game master wanted it to do. This is the first time that I can recall that divinity was on the table as written expressly into the spell.
I think Paizo often takes the in-setting mortal perspective in that most mortals wouldn't really distinguish between a demigod and a true god other than the living god may be physically present. Just see like above that still folks assume the Starstone test makes you a full stop deity which of course it can in any individual's campaign but it is not the setting's assumption.
But for whatever reason, my reading strikes me that it leans into full true divinity, and I'm curious if that reading may have been what they had in mind, as well of the thoughts of my fellow Pathfinder fans.
Given it's possible to mind-control a janni into giving you a wish with no downsides...my thoughts are "highly amused".
But in all seriousness, it seems fair enough. There are tons of plots related to "so and so becoming a god" so I can't fault them for publishing a guess of what it takes to do it mechanically, even if I'm not certain it needed to exist.
The ritual takes a day, in my game anyone who decides to wish for divinity is going to have the most powerful servitors of others gods coming to say hello during the 24 hours you have to perform this ritual.
And honestly, with Wish being a rare ritual, I'm just not going to let players access it all honesty. Or outright tell them that certain kinds of wishes, like divinity, are more likely to get them killed before the wish can be completed.
It's purely DM fiat territory.
Hard to imagine a Janni who hasn't previously engaged in some friendly wish bargaining to set up some defenses against coercion and mind control.
"One wish you you make for yourself, two you make for me."
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It's possible, but difficult.
For the Wish Ritual to go off without a hitch, you need a Critical Success. My players and I did the math and this is a tall order and requires a lot of prep for your character to pull off reliably. Even if you try to stack as many bonuses in your favor, it's hard to get a confidence toward the Critical Success, and you'd likely want to build your character around eventually making this Wish.
The Success is more manageable, but the GM can impose unintended consequences, say making you a corrupted version of the kind of god you wanted to be.
Additionally, at the GM's discretion, you attempting to make the wish could draw the attention of powerful foes who wish to interfere and prevent the wish from happening. So the attempt to Wish to become a god might be preceded by a high level (possibly prohibitively so) encounter that you have to beat before you can finish the Wish.
The check would be:
1d20 + 8 (Legendary Proficiency) + 20 (Level) + 4 (Max Int) + 2 (additional 4 Int Boosts) + 1 (Apex Item) + 2 (Greater Mage's Hat Item Bonus) + 2 (Ritualist Dedication Circumstance Bonus) = 1d20 + 39
Still looking for a reliable Status Bonus to boost it further
The DC for a wish is 45, which means you need a 55 to critically succeed.
Assuming you use the build I posted above, that'd be a 40-59 roll for a 25% chance of a critical success, 50% chance of a success, 20% chance of a failure, and 5% chance of a critical failure.
And all of this is assuming you can even find the Ritual, as it's rare. A whole adventure could be dedicated to just searching down the Wish Ritual.
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You could go up to a Greater Accolade Robe for a +3 Arcana bonus for your maths there, or arguably a Major Cognitive Mutagen if you've got enough to keep drinking them for the whole 24 hours, which would boost it by a further +1 or +2 respectively. I'm not sure what source of a status bonus one could get that would last the full time; an Amped Guidance might be the best as a reaction, giving you a further +2 if it would help. That's getting you up to 1d20+42/+43 vs DC 45, which is a pretty good check! But yeah, regardless of what you do, you're not going to be able to guarantee that critical success result.
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Quote: The Success is more manageable, but the GM can impose unintended consequences, say making you a corrupted version of the kind of god you wanted to be. Given there's an example of angering rival gods, this is probably more likely than using it as a gotcha of "HAHA! For succeeding your character is now the opposite of what you wanted!"
Arcaian wrote: You could go up to a Greater Accolade Robe for a +3 Arcana bonus for your maths there, or arguably a Major Cognitive Mutagen if you've got enough to keep drinking them for the whole 24 hours, which would boost it by a further +1 or +2 respectively. I'm not sure what source of a status bonus one could get that would last the full time; an Amped Guidance might be the best as a reaction, giving you a further +2 if it would help. That's getting you up to 1d20+42/+43 vs DC 45, which is a pretty good check! But yeah, regardless of what you do, you're not going to be able to guarantee that critical success result. Speedy Rituals from Ritualist, unless there's been a change, can get you down to 1 hour, so 6 Wands of Heroism can get you a +3 status bonus. This also conveniently matches the highest level mutagen length.
Guntermench wrote: Arcaian wrote: You could go up to a Greater Accolade Robe for a +3 Arcana bonus for your maths there, or arguably a Major Cognitive Mutagen if you've got enough to keep drinking them for the whole 24 hours, which would boost it by a further +1 or +2 respectively. I'm not sure what source of a status bonus one could get that would last the full time; an Amped Guidance might be the best as a reaction, giving you a further +2 if it would help. That's getting you up to 1d20+42/+43 vs DC 45, which is a pretty good check! But yeah, regardless of what you do, you're not going to be able to guarantee that critical success result. Speedy Rituals from Ritualist, unless there's been a change, can get you down to 1 hour, so 6 Wands of Heroism can get you a +3 status bonus. This also conveniently matches the highest level mutagen length. Are any of these options able to work in downtime? I understood that downtime uses different rules for what sorts of bonuses can apply.
The Pre-Remaster rules said no fortune effects, but bonuses that would last the whole length were fair game. If you have enough casts of Heroism on hand and someone else to use them on you I think most GM's would let it happen.
Pretty sure you can even get Aid provided someone dedicates their downtime to helping the whole time, but I could be wrong.
I’m imagining a particular wizard from Razmiran perking up at Wish granting divinity. Honestly, I’d rather that be a story event than a ritual.
Claxon wrote: The ritual takes a day, in my game anyone who decides to wish for divinity is going to have the most powerful servitors of others gods coming to say hello during the 24 hours you have to perform this ritual.
And honestly, with Wish being a rare ritual, I'm just not going to let players access it all honesty. Or outright tell them that certain kinds of wishes, like divinity, are more likely to get them killed before the wish can be completed.
It's purely DM fiat territory.
Honestly, attempting to Wish for Divinity seems like the kind of thing that would get you Achaekek's attention, one of his big things is Gatekeeping Divinity. And to quote his Major Curse from Gods and Magic, well...
Achaekek's Major Curse wrote: The Mantis God doesn’t waste his time toying with or tormenting those who truly anger him, or those who dare to consider themselves divine. He rips open a portal to your location, kills you, drags your soul to judgment in a way that prevents resurrection magic, and then leaves. Emphasis mine. Unless you've got another Deity sponsoring you or something, you're probably not making it that full day...
The intention is that it be there for groups and GMs who want it. "So-and-so will ascend to godhood if the ritual is not stopped!" "Oh yeah, our archmage from the previous campaign is now one of the gods." Plenty of tradition behind it.
Golarion isn't a setting where a powerful but still run-of-the-mill djinn can actually make you a god, or where a noteworthy number of people have used Wish magic to become gods. Whether that's because Achaekek kills people taking the "easy route", or the djinn notes on how they grant wishes aren't restrictions that bindings can force them to bypass, it's not something happening seemingly with even the regularity of eventually-full-apotheosis Starstone ascension.
So, in the end, I think "check with your GM" really is the intention, and Wish just... more strongly encourages GMs to really run with any wish.
Shinigami02 wrote: Claxon wrote: The ritual takes a day, in my game anyone who decides to wish for divinity is going to have the most powerful servitors of others gods coming to say hello during the 24 hours you have to perform this ritual.
And honestly, with Wish being a rare ritual, I'm just not going to let players access it all honesty. Or outright tell them that certain kinds of wishes, like divinity, are more likely to get them killed before the wish can be completed.
It's purely DM fiat territory.
Honestly, attempting to Wish for Divinity seems like the kind of thing that would get you Achaekek's attention, one of his big things is Gatekeeping Divinity. And to quote his Major Curse from Gods and Magic, well...
Achaekek's Major Curse wrote: The Mantis God doesn’t waste his time toying with or tormenting those who truly anger him, or those who dare to consider themselves divine. He rips open a portal to your location, kills you, drags your soul to judgment in a way that prevents resurrection magic, and then leaves. Emphasis mine. Unless you've got another Deity sponsoring you or something, you're probably not making it that full day... Agreed 100%. I wish it wasn't something Paizo had written into the spell.
Perhaps they could have written it instead as making the wisher into a "quasideity". Like you don't catch mortal diseases, you don't age, or die from old age, you can start recruiting followers (if they do anything for you mechanically), and maybe have like one domain or something.
But full divinity being out of the reach of any mortal magic makes more sense.
Otherwise it seems like Razmir would have done it a long time ago.
Claxon wrote: Shinigami02 wrote: Claxon wrote: The ritual takes a day, in my game anyone who decides to wish for divinity is going to have the most powerful servitors of others gods coming to say hello during the 24 hours you have to perform this ritual.
And honestly, with Wish being a rare ritual, I'm just not going to let players access it all honesty. Or outright tell them that certain kinds of wishes, like divinity, are more likely to get them killed before the wish can be completed.
It's purely DM fiat territory.
Honestly, attempting to Wish for Divinity seems like the kind of thing that would get you Achaekek's attention, one of his big things is Gatekeeping Divinity. And to quote his Major Curse from Gods and Magic, well...
Achaekek's Major Curse wrote: The Mantis God doesn’t waste his time toying with or tormenting those who truly anger him, or those who dare to consider themselves divine. He rips open a portal to your location, kills you, drags your soul to judgment in a way that prevents resurrection magic, and then leaves. Emphasis mine. Unless you've got another Deity sponsoring you or something, you're probably not making it that full day... Agreed 100%. I wish it wasn't something Paizo had written into the spell.
Perhaps they could have written it instead as making the wisher into a "quasideity". Like you don't catch mortal diseases, you don't age, or die from old age, you can start recruiting followers (if they do anything for you mechanically), and maybe have like one domain or something.
But full divinity being out of the reach of any mortal magic makes more sense.
Otherwise it seems like Razmir would have done it a long time ago. Does Razmir have access to the wish ritual?
Also, Nethys became divine because he cast a spell that made him omniscient, so clearly it's not impossible for a mortal to become a god via their magic.
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